if it's not always possible to tell a excpertly dipped coin then what is an "original white&quo

barberlover

Not every dipped coin has a washed out look with weak luster, if pretty dipped coins with full luster exist and are hard to tell if done well, then what is an origonal white coin and how can you tell the difference between origonal white and expertly dipped?

coinguy1

barberlover,

The easy and correct answer is that you can't always tell. You can only speculate, based upon the look of the coin and the odds that a given example would remain untoned, for however many years it's been in existence.

Elcontador

Agree w Mark. Look for telltale signs of dip residue, which are like small carbon flecks. A bit of
the original skin of the coin is typically eaten away. Look at the areas where the fields connect to the devices & to the rims. You should see minute what appear to be parallel lines (a bit like hairlines) going in the same direction across the coin. The devices won't be quite as sharp as they would be on an undipped coin.

If the coin has been dipped only once and dipped well, you may not be able to detect the difference between an original coin's luster & the dipped coin's luster.

darktone

A couple of areas I look at are the rim and the smell of the coin. mike

Barry

Lots of blast white coins have been dipped, and haven't been harmed. Look at my pic of an 1832 Bust half in this thread. The coin has great luster, but obviously has been dipped, as no 170 year old silver coin would naturally look like it does.

Dog97

If it was done properly you can't tell unless you have expensive sophiscated scientific equipment. I can show you some examples of what to look for in a dipper.
If it looks like this it aint original: Dipped Morgan & Dipped Barber

cladking

If it doesn't look dipped then it doesn't matter.

Normally a coin will have to be dipped many times until it looks dipped. If a coin
is washed after a dipping and allowed to sit for long enough there could be no
conclusive way to show it was dipped.

Dog97

<<<<If it doesn't look dipped then it doesn't matter.<<<<
Ahem...let me refer you back to "Dipped Morgan" in the above post. 2 years ago when it was freshly slabbed it didn't look dipped. 1 dip is all it took and look at it now.

LucyBop

<< <i>unless you have expensive sophiscated scientific equipment. >>



Such as an electron scanning microscope!

danglen

I have said this before in this forum, but in one of the speaches Bob Campbell made while serving as president of the ANA, at the FUN Show in 2001, he said "A coin can be dipped up to seven times, and there is not a grader out there that can tell the difference". In the same speech he also said "If a dealer tells you he doesn't dip coins, he's lying".

Dog97

<<<<A coin can be dipped up to seven times, and there is not a grader out there that can tell the difference". <<<<
I'll be bold enough to take issue with Bob Cambell!
This was once an original blackish blue toned 97 Barber Dime in a NGC 64 holder. I wanted it in a PCGS holder because I had lots of PCGS coins at the time so I cracked it and threw it in with a raw submission. Since it was black, splotchy & nonlovely I thought I'd dip it to see what would happen. I knew it was too dark to be a good canidate and could possible grade lower. I dunked it, swished it, looked at it, it was lighter but still black so I dunked it & swished it again. Though I rinsed it well the double dunk dissolved enough silver particles to expose the copper particles which darkened over time giving it the brown dinge look. We can see the difference before our very eyes & Bob & the graders can too.

danglen

Dog,

He said it. (I can also tell you that I don't necesarily agree with everything I have heard him say). But I think he probably meant coins that didn't have heavy oxidation before they were dipped. But you can certainly ask him. He has a coin shop in Salt Lake City named "All About Coins". Phone number is 801-467-8636.

Dog97

I believe you. He also made a tone video. Talking bout toning..........
This was once a monster bag toned with rainbow on the bottom ½ and textile pattern across the top half 97-S DMPL. It's still DMPL, can anybody guess why you only see golden brown where the tone used to be? It was like this when I got it.

danglen

Yeah, he is really big on toning, and hates ATd coins with a passion, but still is on speaking terms with a lot of coin doctors. Also collects toned coins, and has some real monsters in his private collection.

MacCoin

it seem to me I read that 70% of the graded silver and 40% of copper were dipped. I think it was in coinage a couple years age. it seems like a lot of dipping to me and I don't know if I believe it.

Dog97

One from my crackout days. Old holder rattler 65 on TeleTrade. With no pict of course Note the descrip: "White with a touch of brown on the portrait, well struck, above average luster, deep mirrors, has a tick on the eagles breast." Well the touch of brown was a large black spot in the lower hair from a planchet impurity. Not a good dip canidate but I had little to lose. It didn't dip off well

But it upgraded: With pict this time Note the descrip: "Brilliant, well struck, lustrous, medium mirrors, no serious marks." Can you see the tick on the eagles breast that was there when I bought it as a 65 but not mentioned as a 66? A really cool coin, it had die polish that the radiated from the center outward and went round & round like the cartwheel whichever way you tilted it. Die polish sucks but this was a really cool effect. You can see it by the eagle. I wonder what it looks like now.

Donny

So what did your 97 grade out?

Dog97

The dmpl? It's a 63 dmpl.

pmh1nic

I'll take exception to the idea the it's "impossible" to tell. Given the proper tools (EDS/SEM) you can tell if a coin has been dipped. Now whether any of the grading service would care to go to that extreme (or whether collectors care) are separate questions.

roadrunner

I'm very suspect of any pure white classic coin from the pre-1916 era or coins that were not typically saved in quantities. That slightly original crusty and rough surface layer on an orig coin is easy to spot. I like Michael says, you almost never, ever see these any more. Of all the white or near white classic coins out there you can be sure that 99% of them have been dipped. I wouldn't throw common silver dollars into this mix because those were saved in large quantities and often remain well protected from the elements.
But Bust, Seated, Barbers? Forget it.

roadrunner

dragon

Most pre 1964 90% silver coins that have been dipped (even once) can usually be spotted by experts, there is a definate difference between a natural white coin and a Jeweluster white coin. While sometimes the differences are not great, they are apparent and normally quite distinguishable under the right lighting conditions.

dragon

michael

interestuing thrread i am going to post an original white never dipped seated dime on here pcgs ms 67 finest white original coin with monster booming lustre i ever seen in a seated coin the finest white undipped seated coin i have ever seen................ in 35 years

herre is a monster cartwheel lustre never dipped origi al silver coin from 1909
i guess they are uncommon like this coin but if you see this cpin and its thick original skin and monster lustre it is to me a no brainer original non dipped coin the problem is coins like this are few verey few and far between

sincerely michael

dragon once posted a threAD LONG AGO AND I MADE A COPY OF IT ON HOW TO TELL AN ORIGINAL COIN AND SOMETIMES IT IS HARD BUT WITH A COIN LIKE THIS IN THIS ATGTATCHMENT IT IS a no brainer coin never dipped original thick skinned but unfortunately these coins are undervalued and underapprecaited as most all collectors have never ever seen such an animal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barry

Michael,
How can you say that it's never been dipped? Obviously, you haven't owned the coin since it came from the mint. IMO, any coin that old and that white had to be dipped, unless it was stored in a tank of Nitrogen or Helium like some original historic documents.

Steve27

Two comments:

1) The term "original white" falls under the heading of numismatic double-speak (i.e. there is no way of knowing with certainy for over 99% of the white coins for which this term is used; therefore, it has no meaning or value when used to describe a raw coin).

2) For anyone who doesn't believe that a coin can't stay white for over a hundred years, go buy a GSA black-box Morgan.

darktone

How do we know that the GSA morgans were not dipped for sure?

michael, very nice coin and I would take that as an original coin also but nobody will ever know for sure. mike

Conder101

Because if they were dipped we wouldn't have the all the CC dollars that were culled into the hard pack holders as not being Unc because they were toned. (Toning on the CC dollars usually got them placed in packages that are almost identical to the rgular CC dollar holders but the don't have the word Uncirculated on them. But the coins actually are uncirculated.)

BillJones

When it’s properly done dipping can be virtually undetectable on Mint State silver coins. The trouble comes when it is done repeatedly, dipped for too long or dipped in a solution that is too strong. Then the luster is impaired, and one can detect the results by noting the impaired luster. Dealers describe coins that have been dipped very badly as “fried.”

For Proof coins it’s easier to spot. Dipping can result in little ridges when metal has been removed from the flawless mirrored surfaces of a Proof. The coin can also lose some luster. That’s why I much prefer a Proof with its original skin even if it has some tarnish to a dipped white Proof coin. Some dipped Proofs can be nice, but I’ve found them to be the exception, and even the good ones seldom grade higher than higher than PR-64.

pmh1nic

I think using the term original is a judgement call just like grade. That judgement call in some cases might be black and white while in other areas tend to be darker/lighter shades of gray. Those looking for absolutes miss the point (this is something I reluctantly accept being of a technical bend). On the other hand you can arrive at a determination with a high level of certainty whether you're talking blast white or toned and that level of certainty is reflected in the prices we pay.

nwcs

By the way, it is possible for a coin, such as a Morgan, to survive for many years as white. Many morgans in bags are pure white because they were not near a toning source and had other coins around it for protection. Other coins might have been stored in conditions that were favorable for storage. So it is certainly possible to have a very old coin be very originally white. But I think the real thing for me is, do the coins I want to buy look like they are original enough for my purposes?

tracker

Considering there were no "Inert Airtites" years ago, just how few [i[truly undipped "Original Blast White" coins could there possibly be? Very far and few between I'd have to say. If I found a '32 Plymouth Coupe in pristine condition "like new", I'd be ignorant to assume it had never been washed/waxed or lightly polished at least once. Maybe not the best comparison, but... well, you know what I mean.

crito

Why is it silver must react first with sulphur and only sulphur? Could there be something else in the environment that silver reacts with? Could that substance produce a "white" skin and even make the surfaces less reactive to sulphur? Ozone maybe, the chlorine used in white paper perhaps? No one knows, the trade mags are focused on justifying their 70% and 99% dipped bullshiat. No proof, no empirical data, they just keep quoting each other (they are coin experts, after all.. but CoinWorld decided to hire a chemist to support their position too).

originalisbest

Barry, many, many coins out there you may not be able to absolutely tell. But if the Barber Michael posted isn't a full-skin, never dipped original piece, I'll eat my left foot.

And, I'm not worried I'll have to fulfill the bet!

Dog97

I've shown some good examples of what's clearly not original so here's a better example of a more subtle "not original" expertly dipped Morgan. A 78-CC DMPL that I dipped in Feb 1999 before sending it to PCGS. I think I may have dipped it once before that too but I lost some of my 3x5 cards. Looks pretty good except for the planchet impurity by left star #2 which wasn't affected much.

CalGold

Dog,

What is there in the appearance of that coin that indicates that it has been dipped?

CG

Dog97

Ok my last example of a dipped coin:
A junky 91-CC DMPL. I had always heard you couldn't dip out cloudy mirrors but wanted to find out for myself. Went from an NGC 63 DPL holder to a jar of Jeweluster to a PCGS 63 DMPL holder. I dipped it Jan 9, 1998. Hasn't turned bad yet and it won't.


CalGold asks: What is there in the appearance of that coin that indicates that it has been dipped?
There is nothing in the last 2 coins that indicates such. A dealer would hype it an original blinding blast white coin and nobody would know any different.