Thanks, stman, for a most informative thread. I am really not comfortable with this idea of "market acceptability". Markets are fickle. So what happens when the market finds these coins unacceptable? And it will.
<< <i>Can you fault them for being correct most of the time >>
PMH: Depends on what you mean by "most". If most means "majority" I'd agree with your statement If most means "vast majority" I'd disagree because I seen far too many "doctored" (by MY definition) coins in holders. But then we get back to the definition problem again.
So given all of that I just try to keep things simple. If you like it, buy it. If not, don't.
Dog: I do not care whether YOU think I should buy certain coins. If YOU don't like it, tough toenails.
Elcon: People pay inordinate price for Pop 1 coins all the time and it IS defended constantly by the Registry Set types here on this board. So why can't someone simply pay whatever they feel comfortable for a coin they also LIKE even if SOMEONE ELSE may think it's doctored? People will pay and buy whatever the hell they please.
"So given all of that I just try to keep things simple. If you like it, buy it. If not, don't."
Your statement is too simplistic. The question has never been if you like it should you buy it (dah) but deciding what characteristics of a coin are meaningful to you and assigning a value to those characteristics. If you value the fact that a coin has not been intentionally altered (and in many cases you can make that determination) then when you find a coin that you identify as such and it has the eye appeal you're looking for you buy that coin. Depending on how many other collectors value those same attributes will have an effect on the price of that coin.
The dispute is whether the fact that a coin has been ATed should have a bearing on its appeal and price. Some say it shouldn't but the market place says it does.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Dude, you are trying to catagorize everything. Fact is each person grades and evaluates differently. You evaluate one way, I do it (maybe) a different way. Dealers do it a certain way, collectors another. You can detail it all you want in YOUR own mind but the bottom line is whether you like it for the price given. Your brain will probably go thru that analysis but what spits out is I LIKE IT or THAT IS UGLY or I LIKE IT...FOR A PRICE. I can say one thing I do NOT let what OTHER people think determine what I buy. NO ONE. It's my money and I'll do what I want with it...waaaahhhhh. <throwing tantrum> lol
jom, Dude... there is nothing wrong with catagorizing. We're individuals but there are general catagories even though the lines between them may be somewhat blurred. That doesn't mean that we can have a discussion about what is or isn't market acceptable.
In general terms the market doesn't accept coins that have been intentionally altered whether they be ATed, whizzed, frosted, tooled, painted, etc.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Pushkin- No, I'm saying I won't hundreds or thousands of $$ on a coin that I can't understand & explain, especially after Dragon shares that he has seen 30 more just like it and they were all fake for the price of $75.
jom- You may buy whatever you want. I don't disapprove of stman buying it. I know he's experienced in those kind of things. I told him when he got it to let me know what it looked like in real life because I was only judging it by the eBay picture. When he got it he told me it looked just like the picture. I just chalked it up to one of those I couldn't explain & forgot about it until I saw this thread and was quite surprised that it now seems to be AT and even more surprised that after all the hot & nasty coin dr and AT flaming & bashing threads everybody seems to think it's ok to buy coin doctor products. I remember when Legend lady BOUGHT a doctored coin some people even had the nerve to flame HER for even accidently having one!
Back to everybody else- I'll bet if the seller was someone the board members didn't know they would be flaming his ass like all the other clueless eBay sellers and posting nasty threads about him with 500 people jumping in yelling AT, I saw a video and it's AT!. Where's those experts now? In the meantime I'll be collecting my ugly original stuff nobody wants to replicate.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Except when the simplifying results in an inability to draw meaningful conclusions .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Again you drag my rear into the mess for no reason but to take the heat. I love the coin, and do not feel its AT. Could I be wrong......YES......could I be right.....Yes. Is it certified by NGC....YES.
You missed my point. Karl made a blanket statement and I was telling him rather graphically that it does not apply to me. Price is always a factor in any coin purchase which I consider.
If someone wants to sell their mother (or other family member) and take the sales proceeds to buy a pop one coin, I don't have a problem with that. I am very liberal about things that don't affect me personally.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
TBT- What's this "Again" stuff? Why do you always get weird? Can I not comment on one of your coins? You should be saying stman why did you drag me into this mess? As far as I'm concerned if stman has a problem with it he can send it to NGC for review.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i>Care to explain how there are "wild-n-crazy" colors on coins that were sold DECADES ago? Were there AT doctors back then? >>
Yes, there were. Do you really believe people haven't been playing with coins for a long time? Sounds like the "arrogance of youth"?
Carl has put forward some excellent arguments, and he has used sound logic. As usual, some who disagree prefer dogma to logic and they must resort to name calling rather than attampt to understand and appreciate the science involved in the issue - which only diminishes the value of their arguments.
Care to explain how there are "wild-n-crazy" colors on coins that were sold DECADES ago? Were there AT doctors back then?
Yes, there were. Do you really believe people haven't been playing with coins for a long time? Sounds like the "arrogance of youth"?
While some people may have been "toning up" coins to cover marks, the so-called wild-n-crazy toning was not done way back. Darkening a coin to cover marks is one thing, but adding wild color which is for a premium is another. I don't recall hearing of wild toning bringing major premiums back in the 1920s.
Also, if they could have done this toning way back then, then they would have learned to do it much better over the years. That hasn't happened.
Most wild toning that is AT is easy to spot. That which isn't is likely natural. If someone can replicate it, then there is a fortune to be made. So far, I haven't seen people making this fortune.
The supply of nice so-called natural wild toned coins is small. If it could be replicated and gotten by the grading services, it would. So far, these coins are not out in the marketplace.
Great Thread! Like everyone I see the big premium that wild toning on MS coins brings, prices 5x, 10x, what the same coin would bring in blast white (whether "naturally preserved" white or dipped white, and their relative desireability, is the subject of various other threads ) Anyway, the point is that the buyers of these coins feel they they are that much more desireable with the color, just as other collectors are willing to pay the same magnitude of premium for a 68 or a 69 over a 67 (and here I am referring to older coins, for moderns add a point to each #) So the buyer is paying a premium for a work of art in both cases, the gem unc. old coin is a minor miracle of preservation, that it was so well struck in the first place, escaped handling all those years, still has all it's luster and no marks, and maybe is the best one of all known, and the rainbow toned coin is a minor miracle in the reaction with the metal with primarily sulferous but also other molecules (and here i mean primarily silver coins, which of course have copper in the alloy) that produces, via thin film interference, various colors. The buyers value them higher and bid them up.
One difference I see is that from arms length, white MS66 coins look a lot like MS67 and higher coins (not to mention lower graded unc coins) so the premium payer is paying for a sometimes minute advantage in strike or luster, or freedom from already small marks, while for the rainbow coins, whether caused from 60 years in a mint bag in the treasury [I think everyone agrees that there is any such thing as Natural toning, thats it or at least as far as the spectrum goes] or painted on yesterday by Jethro in his basement [the other end of the NT-AT spectrum] either way, however the coin got toned, if the person buying it likes it at the price, then that is their business. I would hope that someone paying 10x sheet for ANY collectible knows what the heeelll they're doing and likes the item at that price.
Specifically, experts in coins can never know for sure how a coin acquired it's color, the best can only place the piece on a probability spectrum as to just how "intentional" and "fast" the color occurred. And if that lands the coin in a Market Acceptable slab, hey it's just an opinion, but a pretty good one generally.
I personally wouldn't pay more than a double or treble premium for a spectacularly toned coin over what the coin is worth white, and not even that if the toning wasn't at least believeable looking. And yes I would feel a lot more secure if the coin were in a PCGS or NGC holder, and will sometimes pay a premium for the holder, as i will for that extra point and the holder vs a similar coin raw.
Of course, i also don't buy ultra high grade coins either, feeling the best value is in the MS64 and AU 58 grades, and of course I'll take older and/or rarer material in any solid grade if uncleaned undamaged, again if the price is right. Some people have expensive tast and are willing to pony up for the look.
I personally think that the subject peace dollar had that color put on it intentionally by someone. I think thats OK, and don't think it matters to the current owner, nor will it to the next. Its a work of art, and has value, to be determined by the buyer and seller. I also really like the coin, and would buy it or one like it if given the opportunity, if the price were right. The current market for beautiful rainbow toning is beyond my justification, so I don't acquire many WOW pieces, although I do have several subdued ones.
the biggest problem buyers of these high premium rainbow coins will face is when their look can be duplicated at will: when enough people learn how to buy a $100 Morgan in PCGS or NGC M65, crack it out, tone it, get it reholdered, and sell it for $1000 or more, when enough guys are doing that to flood the market, when it's good enough, looks natural enough, to be indistinguishable from any sort of toning deemed "natural", when all that happens, the premium for rainbow toning will shrink, because the market will be flooded not only with MONSTER RAINBOW MORGANS but also monster walkers, Washingtons, Franklins, Roosevelts and Mercuries. Common date rainbow toned silver will be available in quantity, in slabs. and there will be a lot of junk that failed at the doctor's office, trading for whatever to whoever. What you won't see is Wild Rainbow Key Dates, because no one wants to risk ruining an expensive coin trying to make it astronomical. With the common coins, the multiplied profits of the winners probably offset the cost of the failures. Ditto you won't see many wild and crazy rainbow pre-1878 coins being created in labs. not as good a risk/reward profile for the doctor.
One thing experienced collectors sometimes do is to store a coin, which has been lightly hairlined from cleaning, in either a wayte raymond or an envelope, sometimes for years, to tone over the lines, and give it a more natural look. Say a collector had such a coin, say an XF details cleaned net VF coin, that he paid VF money for, and put it away in such an environment, it took a decade, was perfectly successful, and the collector then had the coin slabbed XF pcgs, and then sold if for the [then market] XF price, he in effect has restored the coin to XF-ness. Then anything wrong here? I don't think so.
If a doc has the ability to buy a roll of bu silver at ask, tone the coins, get them slabbed, and sell them to eager collectors for a profit, he will. Just as the same buyer would profit from any ultra high grade coins he found in such bu rolls and "made". the differences, imo, are twofold: no one can make MS67 or 8 coins out of MS63 coins, so the high grade find is more Accidental than Intentional. the other is in the demand curve, because of the first fact. Collectors will always want more of the rare and ultra high grade coins, and may someday get enough common date WOW rainbows to satisfy them, once enough more are created.
On the other hand, since each toned coin is somewhat unique, can you ever have enough beautiful pieces, even if they are common dates?? well, my first question was and is, "at what price?"
wow it's late and I'm tired. How about tomorrow we post pictures of our rainbow toned coins and evaluate how much premium the look of each one is worth above what the coin would be white?
<< <i>Karl, I must take exception to your comment to the effect of if you like the coin, the price is not important. The only times in my life price was not important were:
1) When I got dysentery, was in intense pain and was at a doctor's office to get me well 2) When I woke up the day after Christmas and knew I needed a root canal on a molar ASAP.
Coins are a discretionary purchase, and to me, price is always a factor on any discretionary purchase I make. >>
a "discretionary" purchase implies "choice", & "choice" is based on desire. in both examples you gave, you REALLY REALLY wanted to make the purchase (a cure for dysentery, a root canal). it is precisely the same for coins, or ANY other discretionary purchase. this is not the same for something that your life depends on. you cannot choose whether or not to purchase water, or life-saving heart pills, or a quadruple-bypass surgery. (actually, you can, but choosing the alternative would obviously bring your sanity into question)
the alternative to not purchasing the root-canal is co-existence w/ a painful condition, & possible tooth loss, but your life does not depend on it. you DO have a choice. nor does your life depend on the purchase or non-purchase of a particular coin. however, as would be the case w/ any rational being, you will make the choice that is the more valuable to you
i will stand 100% by my statement that if you really really want a particular coin, then no price is too high - the price does not matter
think of it this way: should you choose NOT to buy a coin because it's price is "too high", what you are actually choosing to do is to keep your money, therefore you did NOT really, REALLY want the coin! you chose to keep your money, because at that point in time, you REALLY wanted to keep your money.
if you decide not to really think about what i'm saying, it sounds like a silly argument, & i would fully expect most everyone to read my statement, shake their head in disbelief, & move on to the next thread. i did the same when the wisest coin dealer i ever knew told me that. but 25 years later, i have not been able to disprove his wisdom. it really is true:
if you like the coin, if you want it, really really want it, then it's price does not matter.
it is an easy statement to discard, but once you believe in it, it's near impossible to disprove.
<< <i>I'm with PMH on this. If a coin has been knowingly enhanced and this is not disclosed, it constitutes fraud. >>
then i fully confess to fraud in the extreme. right now, in a safety deposit box, i have eight wayte-raymond albums into which i have placed numerous coins, and my ONLY intent in doing so is for the expected toning. i check them out once in a while, & some are starting to develop that toning that will make me a lot of $ in a few years. yes, i am INTENTIONALLY artificially-toning these coins, & it wouldn't surprise me if YOU end up buying 1 of them at auction some day. no doubt, you will revel in being able to enjoy such beautifully toned, "original" coins.
<< <i>Most wild toning that is AT is easy to spot. That which isn't is likely natural. If someone can replicate it, then there is a fortune to be made. So far, I haven't seen people making this fortune ... If it could be replicated and gotten by the grading services, it would. So far, these coins are not out in the marketplace. >>
baloney. pure & utter naivete. maybe not a fortune, but i can definitely point you to known coin-doctors who are consistently making money by toning coins & getting them in pcgs & ngc holders. yeah, so why not name them? we know the answer to that, but i can gladly direct you right up to 1 of their tables. just search for the thread where i responded to agentjim007 about the monthly coin show in the chicago area. i gave enough info. that you can simply walk right into that show & easily find 1 of the best-known coin doctors, & his case is chock-full of slabed (pcgs, ngc) coins that he toned IN HIS LAB.
<< <i>The supply of nice so-called natural wild toned coins is small. >>
I keep waiting for a flame war to break out and everyone keeps posting smileys!!!! Grrrr...... How dare all of you to have a civil and enlightening conversation on a interesting topic! Oh the shame!
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"It's like grading my friend: There are no meaningful conclusions because it's a matter of opinion."
A matter of opinion (meaningful conclusion) that affects the number of figures after the dollar sign .
Baley
"So the buyer is paying a premium for a work of art in both cases, the gem unc. old coin is a minor miracle of preservation"
This is one of the major points with respect to market acceptability and toning. Whether blast white with unmarked surfaces or monster rainbow toning part of the premium paid for coins that have survived through 50, 100 or 150 years with tremendous eye appeal through "a minor miracle of preservation" have a special appeal to many collectors. IMHO coins that have been dipped or ATed do not have that same appeal and in many cases you can identify coins that have been "processed" to enhance there eye appeal.
When people make the statement "if you like the way it looks" they seem to overlook that the liking is in part determining by whether "the look" contains signatures that the coin has been doctored.
dorlkarl
"i have eight wayte-raymond albums into which i have placed numerous coins, and my ONLY intent in doing so is for the expected toning"
What you expect and what you get may be dramatically different things . As I've mentioned in other threads on the subject intent is only one aspect of the AT question and in some case can't be determined.
Certainty of outcome is another issue. I'm really not all that concerned that much with people that put coins in old folders and put the coins away for 5, 10 or 20 years "hoping" for good results. It's an attempt to help along that "minor miracle" but you never can be sure what you're going to get. I even wonder if there is still enough sulfur or other reactive chemicals in the old albums to cause the type of toning you're trying to achieve (need help from TomB on that one ).
My concern would be the person who has perfected a process where he can churn out monster toned coins rapidly with a high level of consistency. Some have claimed this can be done without leaving signs of the process visible on the coin. Selling these coins without disclosing the processing falls more in line with my idea of what constitutes fraud and I group this practice right next to whizzing, tooling, frosting and the other imaginative ways people try to commit fraud in selling coins as something they are not, selling that as having been preserved in a particular state by happenstance rather than having been helped to acquire a certain look, whether the look is mint state, DCAM, unblemished or attractively toned.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
One thing I believe most everyone does agree on is that there are AT coins slabbed and being slabbed. I seldom post on this forum, but I read a lot. One thing that bothers me (and maybe it bothers others?) is the consistant slamming of raw, possibly AT coins. Yet some people can post pic of a slabbed coin (which is obviously AT) and all I read are the "Oooh's & Ahhh's. If it's a dog, CALL IT A DOG! Leaves me to wonder if the coin is getting all the "Oooh's & Ahhh's" or the owner? IMHO
i just don't want my point to be lost, which is that conversations can ramble on forever & unproductively, until the participants define their position on the issue, & that starts w/ defining terms. i have defined what i consider "natural toning" (which can be used to imply "artificial toning"). it would be most useful if others concerned w/ this subject kindly spell out their def'n of either "natural" or "artificial" toning (if 1 implies the other). obviously, there is much disagreement w/ my def'n, but the only sense i get so far of another def'n is "if it's not slabed, it must be a-t".
again, my concern is that the conversation goes round & round w/ nothing useful for, for example, newbies.
I'm not sure if I agree with you that "intended environment" is the key to determining whether the toning is natural or ATed. It is true that in other than special circumstances (commemorative pieces, mint sets, proof sets, etc.) most coins are made for circulation. At times coins made for circulation have intentionally been put in bags or rolls to be stored at a FRB before going into circulation. The Mint has know for a long time that some people collect coins. That's not their primary reason for producing coins but collecting is a secondary "intention" for coin production as evidenced by the fact that the Mint has on occassion produced coins just for collectors and/or allowed for non-standard channels for issuing standard production coins to collectors to be stored in various ways depending on the time period in which the coins were produced.
On the other hand to my knowledge the Mint has never produced coins with the idea that they would be intentionally whizzed, tooled, frosted or intentionally subjected to some chemical process to produce rainbow colors.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
My opinion: Until collectors quit allowing Grading services to determine what is or is not "acceptable" toning (which in turn plays a HUGE part of the coins' marketablity), artificial toning for profit will continue. It is up to the individual to be knowledgable of conspicuous pieces, slabbed or not. As for NT or AT? The actual, personal knowledge that by placing a coin in a certain environment will impart toning IS AT. But if you place a coin in the same environment without knowing it will tone, this is not AT? Hardly. AT can be without intention. I think the key word is "Artificial". Maybe "Unnatural Toning" should be the standard or at least an addition to definitive terms?? This would imply the coins' history as possibly suspicious but not imply an obvious intentional act. What the heck, slab 'em all! Artificial, Questionable or Unnatural. Ok, I'm ready for a bashing
Most wild toning that is AT is easy to spot. That which isn't is likely natural. If someone can replicate it, then there is a fortune to be made. So far, I haven't seen people making this fortune ... If it could be replicated and gotten by the grading services, it would. So far, these coins are not out in the marketplace.
baloney. pure & utter naivete. maybe not a fortune, but i can definitely point you to known coin-doctors who are consistently making money by toning coins & getting them in pcgs & ngc holders. yeah, so why not name them? we know the answer to that, but i can gladly direct you right up to 1 of their tables. just search for the thread where i responded to agentjim007 about the monthly coin show in the chicago area. i gave enough info. that you can simply walk right into that show & easily find 1 of the best-known coin doctors, & his case is chock-full of slabed (pcgs, ngc) coins that he toned IN HIS LAB.
If it can be done, then where are all the coins? We are NOT talking about adding brown and gold to a coin, but rather real vibrant and wild colors. The type of colors that causes a coin to sell for 20X bid. Where are all these coins if it can be done?
If the coin doctors can make AT like this, then there is a MASSIVE amount of demand in the market and an even more massive amount of money to be made.
The number of toned coins that command significant premiums on the market isn't nearly enough to point to any coin doctor being able to AT good enough for it to look real. In fact, it is just the opposite. The amount of these coins on the market is enough to point that the AT doctors aren't good enough to fool the grading services most of the time and the buying public.
The coin doctors are getting better, but they still can't make a realistic looking monster.
For once I completely agree with and understand the reasoning that you are trying to get across. I believe (and have believed for a number of years now) that everthing in life is a choice. The coin - the money, the root canal - the pain, this reasoning applies to everything that we do. I also belive that choices are not right or wrong - they are simply choices (and by making the choice you also accept responsibility for the results of the choice). Each choice that you make leads to more choices and the results of those choices. If in this instance you buy the coin, then you have given up other choices about what you could have done with the money that went for the coin, else if you keep the money, you give up the coin but you now have other choices that you could make with the money.
Absolutely great thread and a great response!
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
The mistake i continually read on threads like this is the insistance on determining if toning is "real" or "artificial," as if it's either one or the other and thats it. Isn't that like asking if a coin is either circulated or uncirculated and leaving it at that?
Fact is, the only way to think about this subject, for me, is on a continuum, that is to say on a spectrum (pun intended) as to how "authentic" the coin LOOKs, no matter how it got that way.
I say one of the net grading services starts attributing toning on mint state coins like they evaluate strike, and give them grading opinions, when requested by the submitter, ranging from Certainly Real (you can just tell :-) ) through Probably Real, to Questionable, then Likely Artificial, and finally, for those coins that have been obviously been bleached, blowtorched, or enameled, Definitely Artificial.
They could even give them numbers as to how attractive they feel the coin is, so instead of just a * or not, or the seller telling you it's PQ!, you'd get a number for the toning, say ranging from 0 to 70, with 35 representing grade-neutral toning, 0 being a hideously ugly coin and 70 being such a gorgeous unimprovable monster rainbow that no one who gazes upon it doubts its authenticity. Of course the actual number is still a matter of opinion, but just as with condition grading, if you use 3 diff. graders, a consensus would agree a high percentage of the time that a certain coin looks either "pretty real" or "not very real" and to approximately what degree.
of course it would still be up to the market to judge the value of the pieces, and of course the slabbing service could NEVER guarantee their opinion of the toning against any market prices!!
<< <i>If it can be done, then where are all the coins? ... real vibrant and wild colors. The type of colors that causes a coin to sell for 20X bid ... If the coin doctors can make AT like this, then there is a MASSIVE amount of demand in the market and an even more massive amount of money ... The number of toned coins that command significant premiums on the market isn't nearly enough to point to any coin doctor being able to AT good enough for it to look real. >>
how do you know? what makes you think that some significant proportion of the wild-n-crazy colors in slabs WEREN'T made by coin doctors?
i don't know whereabouts you live, but if you can go to chicago on the second sunday of the month, then i will be happy to point you directly to a coin doctor/dealer whose case IS full of ngc/pcgs monster-toned coins that were done - IN HIS LAB.
<< <i>The amount of these coins on the market is enough to point that the AT doctors aren't good enough to fool the grading services most of the time and the buying public. >>
gmarguli, we must disagree then, because i DO sense that the population of "monster" coins IS increasing. take a look at auction catalogs 10 years ago, 5 years ago, & this year, & you'll get a sense of what i mean.
<< <i>The coin doctors are getting better, but they still can't make a realistic looking monster. >>
dude, i know what your saying, & i don't agree, but i am trying to prove it. if i can make such a coin, then someone w/ years of experience can sure as he11 do it. i am working on it.
i have acquired a grouping of dipped, common unc morgans, & using some of the techniques i have been told about, etc, am attempting to "create a monster" so to speak. my goal is this year to get such a coin in a pcgs slab, & have it sold in a heritage (or other) auction. i will document my tests w/ before & after digi-pics, & the coin's sales history. i intend to create the monster entirely w/ household tools & chemicals.
at this point, my results are pretty lame, but i sense that it's just a matter of time! wish me luck
The question has never been whether a person should have the freedom to choose what they buy/collect. The question is whether there should be a concern for how a coin has survived in the condition we see it in today. My answer to that question is a resounding yes.
I don't want coins that have been intentionally "messed with" in order to produce a particular look. I value that "minor miracle" of nature and happenstance that has allowed for a coin to have been preserved with pristine blast white, unblemished surfaces or attractively toned. I don't appreciate attempts made by some to duplicate that "minor miracle" the results of which in many cases are clearly the product of doctoring or deem suspect.
Tracker
"Until collectors quit allowing Grading services to determine what is or is not "acceptable" toning (which in turn plays a HUGE part of the coins' marketablity), artificial toning for profit will continue."
The grading services do not dictate to me what is or is not attractive. They give an OPINION that I can either accept or reject. They also give an educated opinion as to how a particular coin may have acquired a particular appearance. The fact that the opinion of the major services has a bearing on the marketability of a coin shouldn't surprise anyone any more than the opinions shared by any number of experts on any number of subjects where subjective and objective technical factors are involved have a bearing on the decisions regarding other choices we make.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I might be mistaking but I think your premise is that if you can't catch the doctoring all of the time we shouldn't be concerned with it. I don't buy into that premise. Where we can identify doctoring it should be exposed for the fraud that it is. If we miss some...well we miss some. The fact that we don't catch every bank robber or murderer or counterfeiter doesn't mean we stop taking notice of them altogether.
And if I knew of someone committing this fraud (whether it's with or without the knowing aid of the grading services is immaterial) I'd blow the whistle on him.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
it's an interesting ethical dilemma. If a coin doctor plugs a hole, reingraves details, alters a date or mintmark, and then tries to sell the coin for something it's really not, its certainly wrong and fraudulent.
but it seems to me that if a person "colors" a coin, whether the person paints it or tones it bakes it or whatever, then it just becomes a case of "it is what it is" and it is then up to the buyer to determine how much the look is worth to them.
certification is a qualified opinion and certainly never hurts, no matter what kind of collectible one is talking about, but it is ultimately up to the buyer, and if someone really wants a coin, I agree with dorrkarl that it is impossible to overpay. However if resale is even a remote concern, the buyer better know what they are doing and how to sell the piece or they are going to learn a tough lesson.
<< <i>One thing that bothers me (and maybe it bothers others?) is the consistant slamming of raw, possibly AT coins. Yet some people can post pic of a slabbed coin (which is obviously AT) and all I read are the "Oooh's & Ahhh's. If it's a dog, CALL IT A DOG! Leaves me to wonder if the coin is getting all the "Oooh's & Ahhh's" or the owner? IMHO >>
Tracker, very well put and good point that I agree with. Only to add not only will they give the "Oooh's & Ahhh's" over maybe because it's the owner's coin, but the seller also. I've seen where a coin can be blatant AT and some will compliment it or the usual ones that give opinions on AT will stay out of it due to it's their favorite seller that is a member of this board.
I agree if it's a dog ( sorry Dog97 no pun intended) call it one. This is a board for everybody, but just because many sellers and dealers are lurking call it as you see it. This will not only help collectors, but will be good for the industry IMO. And will weed out some sellers and dealers that only come here to hawk their wares, and act like they are your friend.
These are just some observations I feel I've seen on these boards. I see a lot of politics going on that many will not either admit to, or are afraid to say so due to they might be worried their favorite seller is reading and maybe ruin a chance to buy their coins in the future. Even if they know the dealers attitude may be " who cares if it's AT it's in a slab isn't it"
You may not agree on some of my opinion but that's fine. I've always been a straight shooter, so I'm not stopping now.
And if I write something that one of the lurking dealers doesn't like, and they choose to not do business with me so be it.
This may sound like a bad attitude but "I have never begged anyone to take my money."
This has been a very interesting thread imo and very civil debates. I appreciate all this.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
for example, this coin is what it is. it is not for sale, so whether it's real or artificial or to what degree of probability of each, does not matter at the present. it is raw and will stay that way, and in my collection, because I like it. i do not know how it got this way, so it would be up to the observer or potential buyer to speculate on it's "originality" and evaluate it's value (and I did pay a small premium for the color over the price for a slider '42 walker.) maybe by the time my heirs go to sell it there will be a way to tell for sure.
You make what may be a reasonable argument into an absurdity by claiming that a decision to get medical or dental help when in extreme pain is exercising discretion.
No rational individual would view living in so much pain on a daily basis -- as to not be able to function -- as a viable option. To compare this to buying a coin is at best irrational. Oh, I suppose someone with a few degrees in philosophy might argue the point, but that is ivory tower material which is irrelevant to the real world.
If you want to keep some AU Bust Dollars in Wayte Raymond albums for fifty years or more so that they would tone desirably, you're right. If I'm still around, I might like to consider buying one of them. I have a Seated $ in MS 63 which was in a Wayte Raymond album for many years, and it's one of my favorite coins.
However, if you're going to put them into an oven or put some chemicals on the coins and try to sell it to me the next day, that's another story.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
"but it seems to me that if a person "colors" a coin, whether the person paints it or tones it bakes it or whatever, then it just becomes a case of "it is what it is" and it is then up to the buyer to determine how much the look is worth to them."
The problem with this statement is that the efforts of the coin doctors are to make the coin appear to be something it's not. The doctor is trying to duplicate what history and happenstance produced. They create a controlled environment geared towards altering the surfaces of a coin to produce a particular look while trying to hide the fact that the surfaces of the coin have been chemically munipulated to produce a predetermined result.
When someone paints a coin (to each his own ) it's obviously a painted coin. Doctoring a coin is another matter altogether especially when everything possible is done to hide the fact that the coin has been doctored (IMHO). Why do doctors go through all the trouble of hiding their work? Because they're trying to pass of the coin as one of those "minor miracles" of historical happenstance that many collectors find appealing.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I accept what you are saying, but the point that I was making is that is your decision (I happen to agree with it) but that does not make it the same decision that everybody should/could/would or does have. There are people who like toned coins and do not care about how the toning got there as long as they are toned. I personally think that coin doctors should be dunked in a batch of thier own chemicals to see if they tone as well as the coins do, but that does not make this point of view 'right'. It is simply my point of view - the same as the point of view that you have already stated.
As to the point that dorkkarl was making, any decision that you make is based on your descretion, whether it is a 'rational' decision or not. To take the example of the root canal - my father used all kinds of topical pain killers on a tooth that was rotting in his mouth for months because he did not and would not go to the dentist to get it taken care of. The only reason that he finally went was because it developed an abcess and HAD to be treated. So the example that dorkkarl is making is not as absurd as you might think.
To bring this back down to a more reasonable level, it is not uncommon for me to give up going to lunch or doing things after work because I made the decision to spend money on a coin instead of doing those other things. This is not discretionary money (I don't believe that there is such a thing) it is simply a choice that I have made. Any time a person spends money - whether it is to pay bills, buy food or clothes, see a movie or buy a coin - that is at thier discretion. I don't have to pay the bills, but if I don't there are consequences that come along with not paying the bills (there are consequences that come with paying the bills also). I don't have to eat 3 meals a day, nor do I have to provide food for my family but again, there are consequences to both sides of that equation. I make the choices to provide food, shelter, clothing etc to my family because those are the things that I choose to do. The consequences of that are that I don't have nearly as much to spend on coins as I would like to have, but that again is my choice.
If I really really want a coin (or a car, a house, a boat - whatever) then I will take whatever action is necessary and within my morals to make that coin be mine. If I am not willing to go to whatever lengths it takes to acquire that coin, then I really don't want the coin (it's as simple as that). If there is no willingness to put in the effort to gain the object of your desire, then the object of your desire is not that desirable to you!
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I think you still miss my main point. I'm all for freedom of choice (color regardless of how the coin obtained it). The problem is that the doctors try their best to hide the fact that they have doctored the coin. Why do they do that? Because they realize that given the clear choice most collectors would choose the naturally toned coin over one that has been doctored. The doctors try to obsure my view in order to influence my decision making process.
I have no problem with someone that doctors a coin and discloses the alterations (well maybe a little problem ). That disclosure allows a person to really make a clear choice regarding the look of the coin in the full light of its history. Your dad made the choice not to go to the dentist knowing the consequences each day he continued to make the decision to go or not to go to the dentist. You make the decision between buying a coin and foregoing some other use of your money. You do having the knowledge what it will cost you and with a clear understanding of the consequences. I don't see a parallel between those chooses, made with a clear understanding of the facts and circumstances, and the attempt to make a decision in an environment where someone intentionally tries to hide important information.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
You know - I've sat here for an hour reading this entire thread and it dawns on me that one very simple concept hasn't been mentioned:
SUPPLY AND DEMAND
Let's face it - we buy coins because they're collectible - why are they collectible? Because some of them are very common and some aren't. If you take a genuine 1893-S Morgan and put it on Ebay with no reserve, I will guarantee you that it will go for a healthy price and it will sell, regardless of it's condition. The applies to toned coins. Some people like toned coins, others don't. Those who like toned coins, buy them, with the assumption that there will be some value attached to their purchase. I bought the two coins below because I liked them a lot. NOW I also bought them because I felt that they were unique, and in all honesty, I felt that they had value, due to their uniqueness. Some of you might believe that they're AT, and some may not - it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that no one else find some that look exactly like them. For if they do, now my investment starts losing value, and then I wind up with egg on my face, why? not because it's AT or not AT, but because what I thought was unique, turns out to be a dime-a-dozen.
I think the same exact thing applies to the argument between classics and moderns. The classic folks argue the rarity of their coins, while the modern folk argue the condition rarity of their coins. Well - I think we all agree that once everyone has gone through their mint sets and proof sets and eeked out every last PR70DCAM and every last MS70 coin there is, then that argument will be settled.
As for Stman's coin, my coins, everyone's coins, they will hold their value as long as there aren't a plethora of them thrown into the market. Once that happens (remember 1993-O's back in the 60's?) then it all becomes academic.
I hear your point but part of the uniqueness (IMHO) is how the coin obtained that look and based on conversations with other collectors they also attach some value to the unique manner a coin happened to survived to this day with beautiful color or blast white. ATing a coin devalues that uniqueness.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>I hear your point but part of the uniqueness (IMHO) is how the coin obtained that look and based on conversations with other collectors they also attach some value to the unique manner a coin happened to survived to this day with beautiful color or blast white. ATing a coin devalues that uniqueness >>
I hear you Paul, but there in lies the issue. If you can't duplicate what I have as far as toned coins, then what I have is something unique which A. I can appreciate, and B. Someone will want in the future. If someone makes more of these, then their uniqueness and value drops. What I'm saying is that I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about whether there are coin doctors out there that can make coins look pretty and "genuine" - I know there are. What I am going to watch out for is that the coins that I buy look elgant, well struck, and maybe have some unique characteristics that maybe you don't see very often. I think if we do this, it doesn't really matter what Coindoctor Joe is doing in the back of his shop. What matters is that he can't duplicate the look on the coin that I have.
I think what you're pointing out are the limitations we have based on our knowledge and experience to spot coins that have been doctored. If it looks original and smells original and the best eyes in the industry proclaim it original then for all practical purposes its original. I'm not going to lose sleep thinking that I or you or PCGS or NGC were fooled by a doctor.
That said I do not share the attitude that how a coin obtain it's unique look isn't important or that knowingly altering the surfaces of a coin to enhance its appearance and not disclosing that alteration when selling the coin is anything less than deceit and fraud. It's an attempt to promote the coin as something that it's not with financial repercussions for the unknowing buyer of such coins. It also cast a grey cloud over the hobby and industry as a whole.
I don't see any difference in ATing a coin versus frosting a coin to make it appear to be DCAM.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Don't get me wrong - the world would be a much better place with Coindoctors plying their trade elsewhere. That being said, what I mean is that the more we learn, the better off we'll be. The more we can share with eachother about what's real and what's not will be the determining factor on originality and rarity. What I was saying about uniqueness refers to the unique patterns imparted by natural toning. It's awfly hard to beat that - or mimic it. Thus, if you have something unusual, and you know what you're looking for, the likelyhood is that you'll have something of value, not something created in a lab. I see where maybe my thoughts may not have come across clearly - I'm not saying let the docs do as they will. What I'm saying is - learn to tell what's what, and then, the docs can do as they will and we won't get taken.
All toning is real. Toning can be attractive, neutral or unattractive. Toning can be accelerated(my term). The most attractive toning is created by a very thin and very stable layer of molecules which floats like a cloud over the surface of the coin. These layers are accreted over a long period of time. One can look at the coin and see through to the surface as the colors dance across the surface. The blend at the edge of one color to the other is always linear or circular, much like the actual rainbow in our sky which floats above the surface of the earth. You can see through it. The edges blend naturally from one to the other like a real rainbow, hence the term "rainbow". Most of the stuff people today call a rainbow is certainly not that. It is merely a curved mass of color which is caused by a very thick layer of contaminants which one cannot see through. The colors must be viewed at a skewed angle to get the proper effect. The areas of thick toning are splotchy or spotty, especially if there is an impure metal spot in the alloy. Quite a few of these types of coins have made it into the main plastic players slabs. Lots of them are sold on EBAY by photographers expert at skewing the coins just right to get the wild effect. When the coin arrives it is dark and unattractive when viewing it at a 90 degree angle to the surface. Then there is trouble. The more you look at it the more you dont like it. My advice is to attend lots of coin shows and look at toned coins. Look at them in dealers inventories, but by all means look at them in person. Then decide what you like and pay the price. It will be worth it if you are satisfied with it.
Never try to stop a pig from getting dirty. It is an impossible task and it annoys the pig!
<< <i>I might be mistaking but I think your premise is that if you can't catch the doctoring all of the time we shouldn't be concerned with it. I don't buy into that premise. Where we can identify doctoring it should be exposed for the fraud that it is. If we miss some...well we miss some. >>
this is analogous to saying "you can't catch all the innocent folks on death row all the time. if we miss some ... well we miss some". i am not even against the death penalty, but look what has happened in illinois! PLUS, you make the assumption that changing a coin's appearance w/out mentioning qualifies as fraud. baloney! that implies that every coin that has ever been dipped & slabed was fraudulently sold, & that ever coin that someone pops into a paper kraft envelope to tone down after dipping was fraudlently sold, etc. if that qualifies as fraud, then rational thinking would have to conclude the fraud is acceptable!
<< <i>No rational individual would view living in so much pain on a daily basis -- as to not be able to function -- as a viable option. To compare this to buying a coin is at best irrational. >>
it may be improbable, but definitely not irrational. i am certain that if you traveled to a very poor country, you would find numerous examples where choices are made every day between eating, & having a root canal done. cruel as it sounds, every choice outside of what is necessary to survive is a discretionary choice. the only question is which choice is stronger. in our friend's case, he more strongly desired to remove the pain from his tooth than to buy the 1893-s morgan (for example). he may have wanted the coin, but he more badly wanted to remove the pain.
<< <i>If you want to keep some AU Bust Dollars in Wayte Raymond albums for fifty years or more >>
this leads me to believe you have never tried it. i am estimating closer to FIVE years. some coins that i have experimented with literally began toning within days, & i have determined that coins which are dipped 1st tone the most quickly. so if you plan to still be buying a-t'd coins just THREE years from now ...
<< <i>When someone paints a coin (to each his own ) it's obviously a painted coin. Doctoring a coin is another matter >>
now, you have changed the argument. the discussion is "natural toning" vs. "artificial toning". coins can be doctored w/out intent to add toning, for example, dipping it to REMOVE toning. it may sound like a minor point, but it is significant. you are also assuming that no person exists that happens to LIKE what you are calling "a-t". you will have considerable difficulty proving that, yet such persons would consititute part of the market
many of these arguments sadly ignore the fact that DIPPING a coin changes the toning and constitutes DOCTORING. but i challenge you to find anyone who can legitimately claim the ability to identify dipped coins with even the slightest level of confidence
Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Collecting Dollars
<< <i>Can you fault them for being correct most of the time >>
PMH: Depends on what you mean by "most". If most means "majority" I'd agree with your statement If most means "vast majority" I'd disagree because I seen far too many "doctored" (by MY definition) coins in holders. But then we get back to the definition problem again.
So given all of that I just try to keep things simple. If you like it, buy it. If not, don't.
Dog: I do not care whether YOU think I should buy certain coins. If YOU don't like it, tough toenails.
Elcon: People pay inordinate price for Pop 1 coins all the time and it IS defended constantly by the Registry Set types here on this board. So why can't someone simply pay whatever they feel comfortable for a coin they also LIKE even if SOMEONE ELSE may think it's doctored? People will pay and buy whatever the hell they please.
jom
"So given all of that I just try to keep things simple. If you like it, buy it. If not, don't."
Your statement is too simplistic. The question has never been if you like it should you buy it (dah) but deciding what characteristics of a coin are meaningful to you and assigning a value to those characteristics. If you value the fact that a coin has not been intentionally altered (and in many cases you can make that determination) then when you find a coin that you identify as such and it has the eye appeal you're looking for you buy that coin. Depending on how many other collectors value those same attributes will have an effect on the price of that coin.
The dispute is whether the fact that a coin has been ATed should have a bearing on its appeal and price. Some say it shouldn't but the market place says it does.
jom
In general terms the market doesn't accept coins that have been intentionally altered whether they be ATed, whizzed, frosted, tooled, painted, etc.
No, I'm saying I won't hundreds or thousands of $$ on a coin that I can't understand & explain, especially after Dragon shares that he has seen 30 more just like it and they were all fake for the price of $75.
jom-
You may buy whatever you want.
Back to everybody else-
I'll bet if the seller was someone the board members didn't know they would be flaming his ass like all the other clueless eBay sellers and posting nasty threads about him with 500 people jumping in yelling AT, I saw a video and it's AT!.
Where's those experts now?
In the meantime I'll be collecting my ugly original stuff nobody wants to replicate.
<< <i>there is nothing wrong with catagorizing >>
Nutin' wrong with simplifying either.
stman: love that emoticon. lol
jom
"Nutin' wrong with simplifying either."
Except when the simplifying results in an inability to draw meaningful conclusions
Again you drag my rear into the mess for no reason but to take the heat.
You missed my point. Karl made a blanket statement and I was telling him rather graphically that it does not apply to me. Price is always a factor in any coin purchase which I consider.
If someone wants to sell their mother (or other family member) and take the sales proceeds to buy a pop one coin, I don't have a problem with that. I am very liberal about things that don't affect me personally.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
What's this "Again" stuff? Why do you always get weird? Can I not comment on one of your coins?
You should be saying stman why did you drag me into this mess?
As far as I'm concerned if stman has a problem with it he can send it to NGC for review.
I usually like a kiss before I get------
<< <i>Except when the simplifying results in an inability to draw meaningful conclusions >>
It's like grading my friend: There are no meaningful conclusions because it's a matter of opinion.
jom
<< <i>Care to explain how there are "wild-n-crazy" colors on coins that were sold DECADES ago? Were there AT doctors back then? >>
Yes, there were. Do you really believe people haven't been playing with coins for a long time? Sounds like the "arrogance of youth"?
Carl has put forward some excellent arguments, and he has used sound logic. As usual, some who disagree prefer dogma to logic and they must resort to name calling rather than attampt to understand and appreciate the science involved in the issue - which only diminishes the value of their arguments.
Yes, there were. Do you really believe people haven't been playing with coins for a long time? Sounds like the "arrogance of youth"?
While some people may have been "toning up" coins to cover marks, the so-called wild-n-crazy toning was not done way back. Darkening a coin to cover marks is one thing, but adding wild color which is for a premium is another. I don't recall hearing of wild toning bringing major premiums back in the 1920s.
Also, if they could have done this toning way back then, then they would have learned to do it much better over the years. That hasn't happened.
Most wild toning that is AT is easy to spot. That which isn't is likely natural. If someone can replicate it, then there is a fortune to be made. So far, I haven't seen people making this fortune.
The supply of nice so-called natural wild toned coins is small. If it could be replicated and gotten by the grading services, it would. So far, these coins are not out in the marketplace.
Like everyone I see the big premium that wild toning on MS coins brings, prices 5x, 10x, what the same coin would bring in blast white (whether "naturally preserved" white or dipped white, and their relative desireability, is the subject of various other threads )
One difference I see is that from arms length, white MS66 coins look a lot like MS67 and higher coins (not to mention lower graded unc coins) so the premium payer is paying for a sometimes minute advantage in strike or luster, or freedom from already small marks, while for the rainbow coins, whether caused from 60 years in a mint bag in the treasury [I think everyone agrees that there is any such thing as Natural toning, thats it or at least as far as the spectrum goes] or painted on yesterday by Jethro in his basement [the other end of the NT-AT spectrum] either way, however the coin got toned, if the person buying it likes it at the price, then that is their business. I would hope that someone paying 10x sheet for ANY collectible knows what the heeelll they're doing and likes the item at that price.
Specifically, experts in coins can never know for sure how a coin acquired it's color, the best can only place the piece on a probability spectrum as to just how "intentional" and "fast" the color occurred. And if that lands the coin in a Market Acceptable slab, hey it's just an opinion, but a pretty good one generally.
I personally wouldn't pay more than a double or treble premium for a spectacularly toned coin over what the coin is worth white, and not even that if the toning wasn't at least believeable looking. And yes I would feel a lot more secure if the coin were in a PCGS or NGC holder, and will sometimes pay a premium for the holder, as i will for that extra point and the holder vs a similar coin raw.
Of course, i also don't buy ultra high grade coins either, feeling the best value is in the MS64 and AU 58 grades, and of course I'll take older and/or rarer material in any solid grade if uncleaned undamaged, again if the price is right. Some people have expensive tast and are willing to pony up for the look.
I personally think that the subject peace dollar had that color put on it intentionally by someone. I think thats OK, and don't think it matters to the current owner, nor will it to the next. Its a work of art, and has value, to be determined by the buyer and seller. I also really like the coin, and would buy it or one like it if given the opportunity, if the price were right. The current market for beautiful rainbow toning is beyond my justification, so I don't acquire many WOW pieces, although I do have several subdued ones.
the biggest problem buyers of these high premium rainbow coins will face is when their look can be duplicated at will: when enough people learn how to buy a $100 Morgan in PCGS or NGC M65, crack it out, tone it, get it reholdered, and sell it for $1000 or more, when enough guys are doing that to flood the market, when it's good enough, looks natural enough, to be indistinguishable from any sort of toning deemed "natural", when all that happens, the premium for rainbow toning will shrink, because the market will be flooded not only with MONSTER RAINBOW MORGANS but also monster walkers, Washingtons, Franklins, Roosevelts and Mercuries. Common date rainbow toned silver will be available in quantity, in slabs. and there will be a lot of junk that failed at the doctor's office, trading for whatever to whoever. What you won't see is Wild Rainbow Key Dates, because no one wants to risk ruining an expensive coin trying to make it astronomical. With the common coins, the multiplied profits of the winners probably offset the cost of the failures. Ditto you won't see many wild and crazy rainbow pre-1878 coins being created in labs. not as good a risk/reward profile for the doctor.
One thing experienced collectors sometimes do is to store a coin, which has been lightly hairlined from cleaning, in either a wayte raymond or an envelope, sometimes for years, to tone over the lines, and give it a more natural look. Say a collector had such a coin, say an XF details cleaned net VF coin, that he paid VF money for, and put it away in such an environment, it took a decade, was perfectly successful, and the collector then had the coin slabbed XF pcgs, and then sold if for the [then market] XF price, he in effect has restored the coin to XF-ness. Then anything wrong here? I don't think so.
If a doc has the ability to buy a roll of bu silver at ask, tone the coins, get them slabbed, and sell them to eager collectors for a profit, he will. Just as the same buyer would profit from any ultra high grade coins he found in such bu rolls and "made". the differences, imo, are twofold: no one can make MS67 or 8 coins out of MS63 coins, so the high grade find is more Accidental than Intentional. the other is in the demand curve, because of the first fact. Collectors will always want more of the rare and ultra high grade coins, and may someday get enough common date WOW rainbows to satisfy them, once enough more are created.
On the other hand, since each toned coin is somewhat unique, can you ever have enough beautiful pieces, even if they are common dates?? well, my first question was and is, "at what price?"
wow it's late and I'm tired. How about tomorrow we post pictures of our rainbow toned coins and evaluate how much premium the look of each one is worth above what the coin would be white?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Karl, I must take exception to your comment to the effect of if you like the coin, the price is
not important. The only times in my life price was not important were:
1) When I got dysentery, was in intense pain and was at a doctor's office to get me well
2) When I woke up the day after Christmas and knew I needed a root canal on a molar ASAP.
Coins are a discretionary purchase, and to me, price is always a factor on any discretionary purchase I make. >>
a "discretionary" purchase implies "choice", & "choice" is based on desire. in both examples you gave, you REALLY REALLY wanted to make the purchase (a cure for dysentery, a root canal). it is precisely the same for coins, or ANY other discretionary purchase. this is not the same for something that your life depends on. you cannot choose whether or not to purchase water, or life-saving heart pills, or a quadruple-bypass surgery. (actually, you can, but choosing the alternative would obviously bring your sanity into question)
the alternative to not purchasing the root-canal is co-existence w/ a painful condition, & possible tooth loss, but your life does not depend on it. you DO have a choice. nor does your life depend on the purchase or non-purchase of a particular coin. however, as would be the case w/ any rational being, you will make the choice that is the more valuable to you
i will stand 100% by my statement that if you really really want a particular coin, then no price is too high - the price does not matter
think of it this way: should you choose NOT to buy a coin because it's price is "too high", what you are actually choosing to do is to keep your money, therefore you did NOT really, REALLY want the coin! you chose to keep your money, because at that point in time, you REALLY wanted to keep your money.
if you decide not to really think about what i'm saying, it sounds like a silly argument, & i would fully expect most everyone to read my statement, shake their head in disbelief, & move on to the next thread. i did the same when the wisest coin dealer i ever knew told me that. but 25 years later, i have not been able to disprove his wisdom. it really is true:
if you like the coin, if you want it, really really want it, then it's price does not matter.
it is an easy statement to discard, but once you believe in it, it's near impossible to disprove.
<< <i>I'm with PMH on this. If a coin has been knowingly enhanced and this is not disclosed, it constitutes fraud. >>
then i fully confess to fraud in the extreme. right now, in a safety deposit box, i have eight wayte-raymond albums into which i have placed numerous coins, and my ONLY intent in doing so is for the expected toning. i check them out once in a while, & some are starting to develop that toning that will make me a lot of $ in a few years. yes, i am INTENTIONALLY artificially-toning these coins, & it wouldn't surprise me if YOU end up buying 1 of them at auction some day. no doubt, you will revel in being able to enjoy such beautifully toned, "original" coins.
K S
<< <i>Most wild toning that is AT is easy to spot. That which isn't is likely natural. If someone can replicate it, then there is a fortune to be made. So far, I haven't seen people making this fortune ... If it could be replicated and gotten by the grading services, it would. So far, these coins are not out in the marketplace. >>
baloney. pure & utter naivete. maybe not a fortune, but i can definitely point you to known coin-doctors who are consistently making money by toning coins & getting them in pcgs & ngc holders. yeah, so why not name them? we know the answer to that, but i can gladly direct you right up to 1 of their tables. just search for the thread where i responded to agentjim007 about the monthly coin show in the chicago area. i gave enough info. that you can simply walk right into that show & easily find 1 of the best-known coin doctors, & his case is chock-full of slabed (pcgs, ngc) coins that he toned IN HIS LAB.
<< <i>The supply of nice so-called natural wild toned coins is small. >>
small, but growing.
K S
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"It's like grading my friend: There are no meaningful conclusions because it's a matter of opinion."
A matter of opinion (meaningful conclusion) that affects the number of figures after the dollar sign
Baley
"So the buyer is paying a premium for a work of art in both cases, the gem unc. old coin is a minor miracle of preservation"
This is one of the major points with respect to market acceptability and toning. Whether blast white with unmarked surfaces or monster rainbow toning part of the premium paid for coins that have survived through 50, 100 or 150 years with tremendous eye appeal through "a minor miracle of preservation" have a special appeal to many collectors. IMHO coins that have been dipped or ATed do not have that same appeal and in many cases you can identify coins that have been "processed" to enhance there eye appeal.
When people make the statement "if you like the way it looks" they seem to overlook that the liking is in part determining by whether "the look" contains signatures that the coin has been doctored.
dorlkarl
"i have eight wayte-raymond albums into which i have placed numerous coins, and my ONLY intent in doing so is for the expected toning"
What you expect and what you get may be dramatically different things
Certainty of outcome is another issue. I'm really not all that concerned that much with people that put coins in old folders and put the coins away for 5, 10 or 20 years "hoping" for good results. It's an attempt to help along that "minor miracle" but you never can be sure what you're going to get. I even wonder if there is still enough sulfur or other reactive chemicals in the old albums to cause the type of toning you're trying to achieve (need help from TomB on that one
My concern would be the person who has perfected a process where he can churn out monster toned coins rapidly with a high level of consistency. Some have claimed this can be done without leaving signs of the process visible on the coin. Selling these coins without disclosing the processing falls more in line with my idea of what constitutes fraud and I group this practice right next to whizzing, tooling, frosting and the other imaginative ways people try to commit fraud in selling coins as something they are not, selling that as having been preserved in a particular state by happenstance rather than having been helped to acquire a certain look, whether the look is mint state, DCAM, unblemished or attractively toned.
again, my concern is that the conversation goes round & round w/ nothing useful for, for example, newbies.
K S
<< <i>I keep waiting for a flame war to break out and everyone keeps posting smileys >>
Hey, Lucy, how about this?
jom vs. pmh1nic
Does that help?
jom
I'm not sure if I agree with you that "intended environment" is the key to determining whether the toning is natural or ATed. It is true that in other than special circumstances (commemorative pieces, mint sets, proof sets, etc.) most coins are made for circulation. At times coins made for circulation have intentionally been put in bags or rolls to be stored at a FRB before going into circulation. The Mint has know for a long time that some people collect coins. That's not their primary reason for producing coins but collecting is a secondary "intention" for coin production as evidenced by the fact that the Mint has on occassion produced coins just for collectors and/or allowed for non-standard channels for issuing standard production coins to collectors to be stored in various ways depending on the time period in which the coins were produced.
On the other hand to my knowledge the Mint has never produced coins with the idea that they would be intentionally whizzed, tooled, frosted or intentionally subjected to some chemical process to produce rainbow colors.
baloney. pure & utter naivete. maybe not a fortune, but i can definitely point you to known coin-doctors who are consistently making money by toning coins & getting them in pcgs & ngc holders. yeah, so why not name them? we know the answer to that, but i can gladly direct you right up to 1 of their tables. just search for the thread where i responded to agentjim007 about the monthly coin show in the chicago area. i gave enough info. that you can simply walk right into that show & easily find 1 of the best-known coin doctors, & his case is chock-full of slabed (pcgs, ngc) coins that he toned IN HIS LAB.
If it can be done, then where are all the coins? We are NOT talking about adding brown and gold to a coin, but rather real vibrant and wild colors. The type of colors that causes a coin to sell for 20X bid. Where are all these coins if it can be done?
If the coin doctors can make AT like this, then there is a MASSIVE amount of demand in the market and an even more massive amount of money to be made.
The number of toned coins that command significant premiums on the market isn't nearly enough to point to any coin doctor being able to AT good enough for it to look real. In fact, it is just the opposite. The amount of these coins on the market is enough to point that the AT doctors aren't good enough to fool the grading services most of the time and the buying public.
The coin doctors are getting better, but they still can't make a realistic looking monster.
For once I completely agree with and understand the reasoning that you are trying to get across. I believe (and have believed for a number of years now) that everthing in life is a choice. The coin - the money, the root canal - the pain, this reasoning applies to everything that we do. I also belive that choices are not right or wrong - they are simply choices (and by making the choice you also accept responsibility for the results of the choice). Each choice that you make leads to more choices and the results of those choices. If in this instance you buy the coin, then you have given up other choices about what you could have done with the money that went for the coin, else if you keep the money, you give up the coin but you now have other choices that you could make with the money.
Absolutely great thread and a great response!
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Fact is, the only way to think about this subject, for me, is on a continuum, that is to say on a spectrum (pun intended) as to how "authentic" the coin LOOKs, no matter how it got that way.
I say one of the net grading services starts attributing toning on mint state coins like they evaluate strike, and give them grading opinions, when requested by the submitter, ranging from Certainly Real (you can just tell :-) ) through Probably Real, to Questionable, then Likely Artificial, and finally, for those coins that have been obviously been bleached, blowtorched, or enameled, Definitely Artificial.
They could even give them numbers as to how attractive they feel the coin is, so instead of just a * or not, or the seller telling you it's PQ!, you'd get a number for the toning, say ranging from 0 to 70, with 35 representing grade-neutral toning, 0 being a hideously ugly coin and 70 being such a gorgeous unimprovable monster rainbow that no one who gazes upon it doubts its authenticity. Of course the actual number is still a matter of opinion, but just as with condition grading, if you use 3 diff. graders, a consensus would agree a high percentage of the time that a certain coin looks either "pretty real" or "not very real" and to approximately what degree.
of course it would still be up to the market to judge the value of the pieces, and of course the slabbing service could NEVER guarantee their opinion of the toning against any market prices!!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>If it can be done, then where are all the coins? ... real vibrant and wild colors. The type of colors that causes a coin to sell for 20X bid ... If the coin doctors can make AT like this, then there is a MASSIVE amount of demand in the market and an even more massive amount of money ... The number of toned coins that command significant premiums on the market isn't nearly enough to point to any coin doctor being able to AT good enough for it to look real. >>
how do you know? what makes you think that some significant proportion of the wild-n-crazy colors in slabs WEREN'T made by coin doctors?
i don't know whereabouts you live, but if you can go to chicago on the second sunday of the month, then i will be happy to point you directly to a coin doctor/dealer whose case IS full of ngc/pcgs monster-toned coins that were done - IN HIS LAB.
<< <i>The amount of these coins on the market is enough to point that the AT doctors aren't good enough to fool the grading services most of the time and the buying public. >>
gmarguli, we must disagree then, because i DO sense that the population of "monster" coins IS increasing. take a look at auction catalogs 10 years ago, 5 years ago, & this year, & you'll get a sense of what i mean.
<< <i>The coin doctors are getting better, but they still can't make a realistic looking monster. >>
dude, i know what your saying, & i don't agree, but i am trying to prove it. if i can make such a coin, then someone w/ years of experience can sure as he11 do it. i am working on it.
i have acquired a grouping of dipped, common unc morgans, & using some of the techniques i have been told about, etc, am attempting to "create a monster" so to speak. my goal is this year to get such a coin in a pcgs slab, & have it sold in a heritage (or other) auction. i will document my tests w/ before & after digi-pics, & the coin's sales history. i intend to create the monster entirely w/ household tools & chemicals.
at this point, my results are pretty lame, but i sense that it's just a matter of time! wish me luck
K S
The question has never been whether a person should have the freedom to choose what they buy/collect. The question is whether there should be a concern for how a coin has survived in the condition we see it in today. My answer to that question is a resounding yes.
I don't want coins that have been intentionally "messed with" in order to produce a particular look. I value that "minor miracle" of nature and happenstance that has allowed for a coin to have been preserved with pristine blast white, unblemished surfaces or attractively toned. I don't appreciate attempts made by some to duplicate that "minor miracle" the results of which in many cases are clearly the product of doctoring or deem suspect.
Tracker
"Until collectors quit allowing Grading services to determine what is or is not "acceptable" toning (which in turn plays a HUGE part of the coins' marketablity), artificial toning for profit will continue."
The grading services do not dictate to me what is or is not attractive. They give an OPINION that I can either accept or reject. They also give an educated opinion as to how a particular coin may have acquired a particular appearance. The fact that the opinion of the major services has a bearing on the marketability of a coin shouldn't surprise anyone any more than the opinions shared by any number of experts on any number of subjects where subjective and objective technical factors are involved have a bearing on the decisions regarding other choices we make.
I might be mistaking but I think your premise is that if you can't catch the doctoring all of the time we shouldn't be concerned with it. I don't buy into that premise. Where we can identify doctoring it should be exposed for the fraud that it is. If we miss some...well we miss some. The fact that we don't catch every bank robber or murderer or counterfeiter doesn't mean we stop taking notice of them altogether.
And if I knew of someone committing this fraud (whether it's with or without the knowing aid of the grading services is immaterial) I'd blow the whistle on him.
but it seems to me that if a person "colors" a coin, whether the person paints it or tones it bakes it or whatever, then it just becomes a case of "it is what it is" and it is then up to the buyer to determine how much the look is worth to them.
certification is a qualified opinion and certainly never hurts, no matter what kind of collectible one is talking about, but it is ultimately up to the buyer, and if someone really wants a coin, I agree with dorrkarl that it is impossible to overpay. However if resale is even a remote concern, the buyer better know what they are doing and how to sell the piece or they are going to learn a tough lesson.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The grading services do not dictate to me what is or is not attractive >>
That is certainly the case but for the "vast majority" it isn't, IMO. Just look at any number of the threads right here on this message board.
jom
<< <i>One thing that bothers me (and maybe it bothers others?) is the consistant slamming of raw, possibly AT coins. Yet some people can post pic of a slabbed coin (which is obviously AT) and all I read are the "Oooh's & Ahhh's. If it's a dog, CALL IT A DOG! Leaves me to wonder if the coin is getting all the "Oooh's & Ahhh's" or the owner? IMHO >>
Tracker, very well put and good point that I agree with. Only to add not only will they give the "Oooh's & Ahhh's" over maybe because it's the owner's coin, but the seller also. I've seen where a coin can be blatant AT and some will compliment it or the usual ones that give opinions on AT will stay out of it due to it's their favorite seller that is a member of this board.
I agree if it's a dog ( sorry Dog97 no pun intended) call it one. This is a board for everybody, but just because many sellers and dealers are lurking call it as you see it. This will not only help collectors, but will be good for the industry IMO. And will weed out some sellers and dealers that only come here to hawk their wares, and act like they are your friend.
These are just some observations I feel I've seen on these boards. I see a lot of politics going on that many will not either admit to, or are afraid to say so due to they might be worried their favorite seller is reading and maybe ruin a chance to buy their coins in the future.
Even if they know the dealers attitude may be " who cares if it's AT it's in a slab isn't it"
You may not agree on some of my opinion but that's fine. I've always been a straight shooter, so I'm not stopping now.
And if I write something that one of the lurking dealers doesn't like, and they choose to not do business with me so be it.
This may sound like a bad attitude but "I have never begged anyone to take my money."
This has been a very interesting thread imo and very civil debates.
I appreciate all this.
still can't help wondering if it would slab tho
edited to add picture
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
You make what may be a reasonable argument into an absurdity by claiming that a decision to get medical or dental help when in extreme pain is exercising discretion.
No rational individual would view living in so much pain on a daily basis -- as to not be able to function -- as a viable option. To compare this to buying a coin is at best irrational. Oh, I suppose someone with a few degrees in philosophy might argue the point, but that is ivory tower material which is irrelevant to the real world.
If you want to keep some AU Bust Dollars in Wayte Raymond albums for fifty years or more so that they would tone desirably, you're right. If I'm still around, I might like to consider buying one of them. I have a Seated $ in MS 63 which was in a Wayte Raymond album for many years, and it's one of my favorite coins.
However, if you're going to put them into an oven or put some chemicals on the coins and try to sell it to me the next day, that's another story.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
"but it seems to me that if a person "colors" a coin, whether the person paints it or tones it bakes it or whatever, then it just becomes a case of "it is what it is" and it is then up to the buyer to determine how much the look is worth to them."
The problem with this statement is that the efforts of the coin doctors are to make the coin appear to be something it's not. The doctor is trying to duplicate what history and happenstance produced. They create a controlled environment geared towards altering the surfaces of a coin to produce a particular look while trying to hide the fact that the surfaces of the coin have been chemically munipulated to produce a predetermined result.
When someone paints a coin (to each his own
I accept what you are saying, but the point that I was making is that is your decision (I happen to agree with it) but that does not make it the same decision that everybody should/could/would or does have. There are people who like toned coins and do not care about how the toning got there as long as they are toned. I personally think that coin doctors should be dunked in a batch of thier own chemicals to see if they tone as well as the coins do, but that does not make this point of view 'right'. It is simply my point of view - the same as the point of view that you have already stated.
As to the point that dorkkarl was making, any decision that you make is based on your descretion, whether it is a 'rational' decision or not. To take the example of the root canal - my father used all kinds of topical pain killers on a tooth that was rotting in his mouth for months because he did not and would not go to the dentist to get it taken care of. The only reason that he finally went was because it developed an abcess and HAD to be treated. So the example that dorkkarl is making is not as absurd as you might think.
To bring this back down to a more reasonable level, it is not uncommon for me to give up going to lunch or doing things after work because I made the decision to spend money on a coin instead of doing those other things. This is not discretionary money (I don't believe that there is such a thing) it is simply a choice that I have made. Any time a person spends money - whether it is to pay bills, buy food or clothes, see a movie or buy a coin - that is at thier discretion. I don't have to pay the bills, but if I don't there are consequences that come along with not paying the bills (there are consequences that come with paying the bills also). I don't have to eat 3 meals a day, nor do I have to provide food for my family but again, there are consequences to both sides of that equation. I make the choices to provide food, shelter, clothing etc to my family because those are the things that I choose to do. The consequences of that are that I don't have nearly as much to spend on coins as I would like to have, but that again is my choice.
If I really really want a coin (or a car, a house, a boat - whatever) then I will take whatever action is necessary and within my morals to make that coin be mine. If I am not willing to go to whatever lengths it takes to acquire that coin, then I really don't want the coin (it's as simple as that). If there is no willingness to put in the effort to gain the object of your desire, then the object of your desire is not that desirable to you!
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I think you still miss my main point. I'm all for freedom of choice (color regardless of how the coin obtained it). The problem is that the doctors try their best to hide the fact that they have doctored the coin. Why do they do that? Because they realize that given the clear choice most collectors would choose the naturally toned coin over one that has been doctored. The doctors try to obsure my view in order to influence my decision making process.
I have no problem with someone that doctors a coin and discloses the alterations (well maybe a little problem
SUPPLY AND DEMAND
Let's face it - we buy coins because they're collectible - why are they collectible? Because some of them are very common and some aren't. If you take a genuine 1893-S Morgan and put it on Ebay with no reserve, I will guarantee you that it will go for a healthy price and it will sell, regardless of it's condition. The applies to toned coins. Some people like toned coins, others don't. Those who like toned coins, buy them, with the assumption that there will be some value attached to their purchase. I bought the two coins below because I liked them a lot. NOW I also bought them because I felt that they were unique, and in all honesty, I felt that they had value, due to their uniqueness. Some of you might believe that they're AT, and some may not - it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that no one else find some that look exactly like them. For if they do, now my investment starts losing value, and then I wind up with egg on my face, why? not because it's AT or not AT, but because what I thought was unique, turns out to be a dime-a-dozen.
I think the same exact thing applies to the argument between classics and moderns. The classic folks argue the rarity of their coins, while the modern folk argue the condition rarity of their coins. Well - I think we all agree that once everyone has gone through their mint sets and proof sets and eeked out every last PR70DCAM and every last MS70 coin there is, then that argument will be settled.
As for Stman's coin, my coins, everyone's coins, they will hold their value as long as there aren't a plethora of them thrown into the market. Once that happens (remember 1993-O's back in the 60's?) then it all becomes academic.
Frank
I hear your point but part of the uniqueness (IMHO) is how the coin obtained that look and based on conversations with other collectors they also attach some value to the unique manner a coin happened to survived to this day with beautiful color or blast white. ATing a coin devalues that uniqueness.
<< <i>I hear your point but part of the uniqueness (IMHO) is how the coin obtained that look and based on conversations with other collectors they also attach some value to the unique manner a coin happened to survived to this day with beautiful color or blast white. ATing a coin devalues that uniqueness >>
I hear you Paul, but there in lies the issue. If you can't duplicate what I have as far as toned coins, then what I have is something unique which A. I can appreciate, and B. Someone will want in the future. If someone makes more of these, then their uniqueness and value drops. What I'm saying is that I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about whether there are coin doctors out there that can make coins look pretty and "genuine" - I know there are. What I am going to watch out for is that the coins that I buy look elgant, well struck, and maybe have some unique characteristics that maybe you don't see very often. I think if we do this, it doesn't really matter what Coindoctor Joe is doing in the back of his shop. What matters is that he can't duplicate the look on the coin that I have.
Frank
I think what you're pointing out are the limitations we have based on our knowledge and experience to spot coins that have been doctored. If it looks original and smells original and the best eyes in the industry proclaim it original then for all practical purposes its original. I'm not going to lose sleep thinking that I or you or PCGS or NGC were fooled by a doctor.
That said I do not share the attitude that how a coin obtain it's unique look isn't important or that knowingly altering the surfaces of a coin to enhance its appearance and not disclosing that alteration when selling the coin is anything less than deceit and fraud. It's an attempt to promote the coin as something that it's not with financial repercussions for the unknowing buyer of such coins. It also cast a grey cloud over the hobby and industry as a whole.
I don't see any difference in ATing a coin versus frosting a coin to make it appear to be DCAM.
Don't get me wrong - the world would be a much better place with Coindoctors plying their trade elsewhere. That being said, what I mean is that the more we learn, the better off we'll be. The more we can share with eachother about what's real and what's not will be the determining factor on originality and rarity. What I was saying about uniqueness refers to the unique patterns imparted by natural toning. It's awfly hard to beat that - or mimic it. Thus, if you have something unusual, and you know what you're looking for, the likelyhood is that you'll have something of value, not something created in a lab. I see where maybe my thoughts may not have come across clearly - I'm not saying let the docs do as they will. What I'm saying is - learn to tell what's what, and then, the docs can do as they will and we won't get taken.
Frank
<< <i>I might be mistaking but I think your premise is that if you can't catch the doctoring all of the time we shouldn't be concerned with it. I don't buy into that premise. Where we can identify doctoring it should be exposed for the fraud that it is. If we miss some...well we miss some. >>
this is analogous to saying "you can't catch all the innocent folks on death row all the time. if we miss some ... well we miss some". i am not even against the death penalty, but look what has happened in illinois! PLUS, you make the assumption that changing a coin's appearance w/out mentioning qualifies as fraud. baloney! that implies that every coin that has ever been dipped & slabed was fraudulently sold, & that ever coin that someone pops into a paper kraft envelope to tone down after dipping was fraudlently sold, etc. if that qualifies as fraud, then rational thinking would have to conclude the fraud is acceptable!
<< <i>No rational individual would view living in so much pain on a daily basis -- as to not be able to function -- as a viable option. To compare this to buying a coin is at best irrational. >>
it may be improbable, but definitely not irrational. i am certain that if you traveled to a very poor country, you would find numerous examples where choices are made every day between eating, & having a root canal done. cruel as it sounds, every choice outside of what is necessary to survive is a discretionary choice. the only question is which choice is stronger. in our friend's case, he more strongly desired to remove the pain from his tooth than to buy the 1893-s morgan (for example). he may have wanted the coin, but he more badly wanted to remove the pain.
<< <i>If you want to keep some AU Bust Dollars in Wayte Raymond albums for fifty years or more >>
this leads me to believe you have never tried it. i am estimating closer to FIVE years. some coins that i have experimented with literally began toning within days, & i have determined that coins which are dipped 1st tone the most quickly. so if you plan to still be buying a-t'd coins just THREE years from now ...
<< <i>When someone paints a coin (to each his own ) it's obviously a painted coin. Doctoring a coin is another matter >>
now, you have changed the argument. the discussion is "natural toning" vs. "artificial toning". coins can be doctored w/out intent to add toning, for example, dipping it to REMOVE toning. it may sound like a minor point, but it is significant. you are also assuming that no person exists that happens to LIKE what you are calling "a-t". you will have considerable difficulty proving that, yet such persons would consititute part of the market
many of these arguments sadly ignore the fact that DIPPING a coin changes the toning and constitutes DOCTORING. but i challenge you to find anyone who can legitimately claim the ability to identify dipped coins with even the slightest level of confidence
K S