Any word on NFL HOF Rookie Set???

JasP24 · January 14, 2003 1:31AM

I see that it has been at the top of the "new Set" list for awhile, does anyone have any info as to when it will become available? Also, will it be a weighted set? If so, who decides the weighting and the cards which will be used for each player? The current NFL Hall of Fame list is not weighted and contains names of guys who've never had a NON oddball card produced(i.e. owners, commisioners).

I'm anxious to see how I stack up on a true NFL HOF RC player list.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

JasP24

sixdart · January 14, 2003 2:30AM

The delay has to be in the research of the RC of each player.

I do not know if PSA intends to only use players in this set as well. However, there are coaches, owners, players and administrators with many questions regarding their true RC. Some may have none? Most of the coaches have modern cards.

sixdart · January 14, 2003 2:49AM

Did you send BJ/Joe your list of desired RCs to expedite their research? That will sometimes assist the set's listing.

I think PSA IS just being cautious with identifying any card as the "offical" RC. For example. Jim Thorpe first appeared on a card as a baseball player. Should his '33 Sport Kings be considered his football RC? Red Grange also had several appearances prior to the Sport Kings issue. And there are cards like the '55 Topps All-American rookie of Don Hutson, in which he appears many years after he played with the GB Packers.

Then there is the issue of regional vs. national distribution vs. release date. The best example is ... what is considered to be Babe Ruth's rookie?

JasP24 · January 14, 2003 3:58AM

Sixdart, all of the questions you posed are also concerns that I have had. I have been collecting NFL HOF RC's for a few years now, and I would hate to have been buying "disqualified" cards. I'm glad to hear that they are researching it though, and trying to do the right thing for everyone. I'd rather wait for a GOOD, accurate, weighted list than have something similar to the current Hall of Fame player Registry.

I don't think I am THE subject matter expert on HOF rookies, but thats all I've been buying for the past 3-4 years. I may be able to give some input to BJ/Joe. How do I get in touch with this person?

Thanks in advance for your input,
JasP24

AlanAllen · January 14, 2003 11:27AM

I was wondering about this too for my HOF running backs collection. Joe Guyon and Tuffy Leemans didn't have any playing days cards issued, and Blood McNally only had a matchbook cover. Red Grange and Curly Lambeau are gray areas too.

JasP, you can get in touch with BJ at bj@collectors.com. Maybe it would be better to discuss all of the questionable players here though? If we reach consensus it would probably carry more weight than individual e-mails.

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 14, 2003 3:36PM

Hello everyone, I believe i was the origional submitter for the NFL HOF Rookie Set. I submitted it about 4 or 5 weeks ago i think, maybe 6.
They did ask me to submit a list of rookie cards and i did so. I tried to attach an xls file and then a ziped version but the board says this type of file is not permitted. If anyone is interested in seeing my list email me and ill send it to you.

I did use some oddball sets as rookies, but only because there were no official issues of the players before. I also only used NFL Rookies, not USFL, CFL, WFL or XFL and cards of players in other leagues.

4-Sport Fantasy Games, The way Fantasy Sports was meant to be played.

JasP24 · January 14, 2003 7:18PM

NFLHOF Collector. Please send me your list if you can. jabeduco@yahoo.com.

IMHO, I see the oddball cards as less of a rookie than the USFL or CFL cards. Yes they are NFL cards, but a McDonalds card is not something I would be happy to have in my collection. I think we could definitely discuss the who and what here then e-mail Joe with a link to this thread.

My take is that I would rather have the list as a player only list. Coaches, owners, etc. aren't true "rookie HOFers". Even guys like Tom Landry, who has a rookie playing card, but was elected as a COACH, I think should not be on the list. As far as modern era players go, and this will get far more confusing once players from the 1990's and 2000's start getting elected, I think it should be the most valuable regular rookie card of that player. For example, 1948 Leaf and 1948 Bowman. Some players have cards in each set. It should be the most valuable rookie card of the two, which would make the choice of card clear. Once a player from 1995 or so gets elected, should we be chasing a parallel set or his most valuable NORMAL card.

Look forward to hearing the input on this.
JasP24

AlanAllen · January 14, 2003 8:03PM

JasP,
I'll save Robert the trouble and forward you his spreadsheet.

I disagree with you about coaches and administrators. I think if they are in the HOF and have a rookie card, they should be in the set. It looks like Baseball breaks managers into a different set, so maybe it'll end up that way.

I agree with you on "tie-breakers," the highest valued card in PSA 8 should be the one in the set. I also agree with you on USFL cards, but that's a gray area. As for modern cards, parallels are not considered rookie cards, so it should be the highest valued base set card.

Looking over Robert's spreadsheet, there are still some that don't fit into a neat slot. We should probably discuss those guys here and reach concensus.

Joe

JasP24 · January 14, 2003 8:49PM

Great list, very similar to mine. Robert definitely has done his homework on the subject. That being said, here are the cards that I beleive are questionable.

Any of the Admin or Coaches should not be on the list. NFL Rookie HOFers are players. Coaches are for the ALL inclusive HOF list. Or a separate list like on the baseball registry.

The oddball cards should not be included. 1974 Fleer Hall of Fame, 1933 Goudey, 1950 Topps Felt Backs, 1994 Enor, etc....Its impossible to pick and choose which oddball cards should or should not be included, so I say none. Most of the oddball cards listed are not even necessarily the oddball RC of said player. Doing a name search on Beckett gives many different cards which are older than the ones listed. We should use the first REGULAR issue base set NFL card as the rookie. Do we start using the Press Pass cards as rookies 10 years from now?

Its also my opinion that the RC should be of the TOP most valuable regular issue card. Here are the cards in which that is not the case:
The 1948 Leaf Phios should be 1948 Bowman
1948 Bowman Van Buren, Trippi and Baugh should all be 1948 Leaf
The 1961 Topps Maynard and Otto should both be 1961 Fleer

Other cards such as Steve Owen and George Halas are coach cards. Although they played, they were elected as COACHES. The 33 Goudey Jim Thorpe and Red Grange should be listed as the 1955 Topps All-American. The 1933 Goudey is akin to say 1993 Classic 4 Sport cards. I wouldnt consider them a REGULAR NFL issue card. 1950 Felt Backs Stautner and Creekmur oddballs should be 1951 Bowman regular issue cards. Also, the Jackie Slater and Mike Munchak are switched, Slater 1984, Munchak 1985.

Obviously, my statements are my opinion, but I hope that when PSA releases this list, there is some consistency. It should be the most VALUABLE RC of each player, with no USFL, CFL, FELT BACKS or any other ODDBALL issues. The coaches are debatable, but if their only card is 1994 Ted Williams, they definitely should not be on the HOF RC list. Save that for the all inclusive, use any card of that player Hall of Fame list.

Look forward to your feedback,
JasP24

AlanAllen · January 14, 2003 9:14PM

Hmm, I have to disagree with you on Grange and Thorpe. The Sports Kings were multi-sport, but are consdered a mainstream set. The All-Americans were issued well after the playing days of these guys, and were "retrospective" type cards.

In general, mainstream cards are of course preferable to oddball cards, but what about players that never had (and still don't have) a mainstream card? Do we leave them off the list completely? For example, there are like 12 HOF players that have their first real card in '74 and '75 Fleer HOF sets. We can't leave those guys off the list can we?

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 14, 2003 9:28PM

I know the oddballs are something people dont like to look at, but for the 74 and 75 fleer hall of fame issues there are so many players that this set is actually there first card. Most of the oddballs are coaches and admin, but not all, and if we left the oddballs out there will be gaps in the player set. I tried to keep the oddballs to the mainstream makers like fleer and topps, with the exceptions of the ted williams and touchdown sets.

The reason why I have so many of the 1948's listed in the bowman set over the leaf set is because generally, IMHO, I like the looks of the bowman cards more. I did not go for value.

I also also agree with Joe that the 33 goudey set is a main set and the grange, thorpe and nagurski(someday ill have one) cards should be considered rookies.

Keep the discussion going.....

Robert...

JasP24 · January 14, 2003 9:38PM

Well, if we are going to include them using an oddball set, then it should be the first issued card. Some of the guys with 74 Fleer HOF also have TEAM cards issued of them that are older. So the question is, where do we draw the line? If we use one oddball, don't we have to use them all for the sake of consistency? I think this set should be LIMITED. We have an ALL inclusive set already in the regular Hall of Fame Registry. This set should be something close to what the All-Time QB,RB, and WR lists. Just larger to include all HOF RC's of players.

As far as the All-Americans go, there are MANY retrospective cards in that set, and they ARE included, and even LISTED as RC's by PSA in the SMR.

Again, the number #1 question is, where do we draw the line? There needs to BE a line, a standard, a consistency. That way, when I buy a card of a FUTURE Hall of Famer not yet on the list, I know which card to get. That gets tough starting with rookies from the 90's because of multiple sets and mulitple rookies. What IS mainstream and what is not? What is an NFL Base set card and what is not? Oddball or no oddballs, all or none in my opinion?

These are the questions that we need answered before this new set registry is released.

JasP24

JasP24 · January 14, 2003 9:45PM

In reply to Robert's post,

We MUST have a standard that we can use for FUTURE additions to the HOF RC list. If we include one oddball, then we must include them all like the USFL, CFL, XFL etc.

The value of the cards are really the only factual info we have to make an educated choice of which card to use. I personally think the Leaf looks better with the color pics, but again, that is opinion. Since this Registry will be for everyone, we should base it on factual info(i.e value, year of issue, base set) and not opinion. Otherwise, figuring out which FUTURE cards to get will be IMPOSSIBLE. and I for one do not plan on buying every 1998 base set card of Peyton Manning. Just the MOST valuable. LOL

JasP24

AlanAllen · January 14, 2003 10:59PM

You draw the line only if the player did not have a mainstream card issued during his playing days. Take a guy like Ollie Matson, his first issued card was a Browns team issue, but since he has a clear mainstream RC from his playing days that's the one you go with. But then there are players like Tuffy Leemans who didn't have any cards issued during his playing days, oddball or not. I don't think it's fair to leave these guys off a HOF list just because they weren't fortunate enough to have a true RC. Nor would that make for a complete list. So, you do the best you can, you pick the earliest or most mainstream card made of him after his playing days. In many cases these are Fleer or Enor HOF cards.

The USFL cards are a gray area and I'd be fine either way there. For future RCs, Beckett definitions should prevail. Draft pick sets like Press Pass aren't RCs, parallels aren't RCs, and inserts aren't RCs. If Peyton Manning makes the hall, his the 1998 SP Authentic will be the one added to the HOF rookie set.

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 14, 2003 11:36PM

Ahhhh but values change, what is 200 dollars today is 50 the next and what is 50 today could get popular and be 200 tomorow.

And again when looking at the oddball I try to stay with the major companies like Fleer and topps. Team sets should not be considered IMHO because they are mostly regional issue and not national.

How can a USFL or CFL card be a RC for a NFL HOF Member. Those leagues actually have their own HOF's.

Robert....

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 12:05AM

Totally agree with your last post Joe, except that 1974 Fleer or Enor cards are no way mainstream cards. Also agree with going by Beckett definitions.

For Robert, while I agree that values do change, they usually change in general for a player. If Steve Van Buren RC's drop in value, both the Bowman AND Leaf will likely drop. All of the cases I stated previously:

The 1948 Leaf Phios should be 1948 Bowman
1948 Bowman Van Buren, Trippi and Baugh should all be 1948 Leaf
The 1961 Topps Maynard and Otto should both be 1961 Fleer

Are all VERY clear cut as to which card is more valuable. I mean we are not talking $.50 or a $1.00.

Also, USFL card I see as semi-oddball cards. Mainstream, but not TRUE NFL base set rookies. In the same category of the 33 Goudey and the 50 Topps Felt Backs. My point behind it was that we should go one way or the other. Either use all cards from this "category" or none. Shouldn't be a pick and choose according to anyones opinion, but based on the facts.(year, issue, value)

I will conceed that coaches could be included, but why the ADMIN guys???

Jasp24

JLBroker · January 15, 2003 4:09AM

Hi...

As a collector of Hall of Fame rookies, I view the USFL set as the rookie card for the likes of Jim Kelly. If you look at value, his '84 Topps USFL card is valued more than his '87 Topps issue and his '84 USFL card is sought after more than the '87. Just look at the bids at auction time. In the '84 USFL set, you have Reggie White and Steve Young rookie cards. Those are the one's I'd rather have than the '86 Topps issue. The USFL sets are fairly easy to get.

As for HOFers that have no Topps, Bowman, Leaf, Fleer rookie cards (I count 33 such HOFers), I feel that their first issue should be the RC. IMHO coaches should be in this HOF rookie set. To leave a Lombardi, Landry or a Noll, wouldn't really be a Hall of Fame set to me.

I am in favor of a Rookie Card set of HOFers. I personally will try to get a HOFers RC in my set, but if I don't have that RC yet, I will put the oldest card of that HOFer that I have in that set until I do.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff Barker

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 4:37AM

The best solution is for PSA to set up the Football Hall of Fame registries just like the Baseball Hall of Fame registries. With Coaches/Admin a separate category, and also a Post war(1948-present) list.

That would appease most, if not all, of the collectors in this thread at least.

JasP24

Davemri · January 15, 2003 6:40AM

Hi guys,
I have also made my own list of players rc cards and typed it up on my computer. I would be willing to share if someone would like to see it. I would also be interested in seeing other people lists to see how they compare. I would appreiciate if you would send me your list for me take a look at.

dave

Davemri · January 15, 2003 6:53AM

Well here it is....this only includes players...

1933 Sport Kings
Red Grange
Jim Thorpe

1935 National Chicle
Bronko Nagurski
Dutch Clark
Clark Hinkle
Turk Edwards
Cliff Battles
Ken Strong

1948 Leaf/Bowman
Sammy Baugh
Sid Luckman
Steve Van Buren
Bob Waterfield
Bill Dudley
George McAfee
Charlie Trippi
Pete Pihos

1948 Leaf only
Doak Walker
Bobby Layne
Leo Nomellini
Chuck Bednarik
Bulldog Turner
George Conner

1948 Bowman only
Alex Wojciechowicz

1950 Bowman
Otto Graham
Elroy Hirsch
Marion Motley
Joe Perry
Tom Fears
Y.A. Tittle
Tony Canadeo
Lou Groza
Dante Levelli

1951 Bowman
Norm Van Brocklin
Arnie Weinmeister
Emlen Tunnell
Ernie Srautner
Lou Creekmor

1952 Bowman Lg.
Joe Stydahar
Art Donovan
Wayne Millner
Jack Christianson
Hugh McElhenny
Andy Robustelli
Gino Marchetti
Ollie Mattson
Frank Gifford
Yale Lary

1954 Bowman
George Blanda
Doug Atkins

1955 Bowman
Len Ford
Jim Ringo
Mike McCormack
Frank Gatski
Bob St. Clair
John Henry Johnson

1955 Topps AA
Mel Hein
Don Hutson
Ernie Nevers
Bruiser Kinard
Ace Parker
“Fats” Henry

1956 Topps
Joe Schmidt
Bill George
Roosevelt Brown
Stan Jones
Lenny Moore

1957 Topps
Dick Lane
Raymond Berry
Bart Starr
Johnny Unitas
Paul Hornung
Tommy McDonald

1958 Topps
Jim Brown
Sonny Jorgenson

1959 Topps
Sam Huff

Jim Parker
Bobby Mitchell
Jim Taylor

1960 Fleer
Ron Mix
Sid Gillman

1960 Topps
Forrest Gregg

1961 Topps/Fleer
Jim Otto
Don Maynard

1961 Topps only
Henry Jordan

1962 Topps
Mike Ditka
Fran Tarkenton

1962 Fleer
Billy Shaw

1963 Fleer
Len Dawson
Lance Alworth
Nick Buoniconti

1963 Topps
Ray Nitschke
Bob Lilly
Deacon Jones
Larry Wilson
Willie Wood

1964 Philadelphia
Willie Davis
Herb Adderly
Merlin Olsen
John Mackey

1964 Topps
Buck Buchanan
Bobby Bell

1965 Philadelphia
Paul Warfield
Mel Renfro
Paul Krause
Charley Taylor
1965 Topps
Joe Namath
Fred Bilitnikoff
Willie Brown

1966 Philadelphia
Dick Butkus
Gale Sayers

1967 Philadelphia
Leroy Kelly
Jackie Smith
Dave Wilcox

1968 Topps
Bob Griese

1969 Topps
Larry Csonka

1970 Topps
Jan Stenerud
Alan Page
O.J. Simpson
Lem Barney
Tom Mack

1971 Topps
Ken Houston
Willie Lanier
Joe Greene
Terry Bradshaw

1972 Topps
Roger Staubach
Gene Upshaw
Ted Hendricks
John Riggins
Larry Little
Charlie Joiner
Rony Yary

1973 Topps
Art Shell
Franco Harris
Jack Ham
Dan Deirdorf
Jack Youngblood
Jim Langler

1974 Topps
John Hannah

1975 Topps
Mel Blount
Dan Fouts
Lynn Swann

1976 Topps
Walter Peyton
Jack Lambert
Randy White

1977 Topps
Lee Roy Selmon
Mike Webster
Mike Haynes
Dave Casper

1978 Topps
Tony Dorsett
John Stallworth

1979 Topps
Earl Campbell
Ozzie Newsome

1981 Topps
Kellen Winslow
Joe Montana
Dan Hampton

1982 Topps
Lawrence Taylor
Ronnie Lott
Anthony Munoz

1983 Topps
Mike Singletary

1984 Topps
Jackie Slater
Eric Dickerson
Dwight Stephenson
Howie Long

1984 Topps USFL
Jim Kelly

1985 Topps
Mike Munchak

Davemri · January 15, 2003 7:00AM

Players unable to find rc's of...........17 players

George Musso
Cal Hubbard
John McNally
Bill Hewitt
Ed Healey
Mike Lymon
Mike Michalske
George Trafton
Paddy Driscoll
Dan Fortmann
Joe Guyon
Arnie Herber
Walt Keisling
Bill Willis
Alphonse Leemans
Morris Badgro

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 7:28AM

Lets see, if you took the admin and coach HOFers out of my list that would leave 187 players. If you took out the players with oddball Rookies, not including the goudeys, but including usfl cards, you would have only 167 collectible players, plus this years inductees so figure 1 coach and 1 admin this year that leaves @172 collectible player RC's. Now that it is down to that number, the next thing we need to do is figure out which RC for each player. I personally like the RC that looks the best, set wise, but others want most expensive. So this is the area we are stuck on. That makes the creekmur and stautner infinitly easier to find in the 51 set then in the 50 set. I also, IMHO as I stated before, like the 48 Bowman set better then the Leaf set because of the way it looks. The Leaf set looks mor cartoonish.Then in the sixties you have your choice between fleer, topps and philadelphia fore many of the years.

Should we make a list of every main streem RC distribute it among the members here and take a vote for which card everyone likes, and then collect and colate, maybe mispelled sorry. Because I am willing to do this if every one else is.

Oh, also one more item. Do we want this set weighted or not?

LMK,

Robert.....

4-Sport Fantasy Games. Fantasy Sports the way it was ment to be played.
Check out my Raw HOF RC's on Ebay. My user name is Wirelesslanman.

Davemri · January 15, 2003 7:38AM

That sounds fine with me. Could you email me your list. My address is davemri@yahoo.com

btw... I actually like the leaf cards. I find them much more attractive being color. I believe they are much easier to look at and seem to price slightly higher.

I think the best alternative is to make the OR option available... but, Weigh the cards the same
Let the set builder choose which rc they want to use... that way, it would work for both of us..

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 7:47AM

Hi, I was told you cant do that on the registry. Its either open to all the players many years or down to one specific card.
Ill email you my list right now.

Check out my Raw HOF RC's on ebay. My username is wirelesslanman.

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 7:52AM

Well, here's my list complete with SMRs and POP's. Didn't copy and paste very well, but good enough.

JasP24

PSA RC LIST As of Jan 8th PSA 7 POP
1935 National Chicle#1 Dutch Clark 900.00 14
1935 National Chicle#7 Ken Strong 500.00 10
1935 National Chicle#10 Cliff Battles 500.00 16
1935 National Chicle#11 Turk Edwards 600.00 11
1935 National Chicle#24 Clark Hinkle 450.00 13
1935 National Chicle#34 Bronko Nagurski 7500.00 10
1948 Bowman#36 Bulldog Turner 235.00 9
1948 Bowman#61 Alex Wojciechowicz 115.00 9
1948 Bowman#63 Pete Pihos 215.00 5
1948 Leaf#1 Sid Luckman 425.00 3
1948 Leaf#4 Doak Walker 280.00 13
1948 Leaf#6 Bobby Layne 600.00 8
1948 Leaf#19 George McAfee 185.00 11
1948 Leaf#22 Steve Van Buren 260.00 15
1948 Leaf#26 Bob Waterfield 270.00 8
1948 Leaf#29 Charlie Trippi 175.00 1
1948 Leaf#34 Sammy Baugh 675.00 11
1948 Leaf#36 Bill Dudley 150.00 8
1948 Leaf#37 George Connor 125.00 3
1948 Leaf#52 Leo Nomellini 550.00 4
1948 Leaf#54 Chuck Bednarik 560.00 5

PSA RC LIST PSA 7 PSA 8 POP
1950 Bowman#5 Y.A.Tittle 255.00 700.00 41/30
1950 Bowman#6 Lou Groza 140.00 300.00 33/34
1950 Bowman#9 Tony Canadeo 80.00 150.00 16/15
1950 Bowman#35 Joe Perry 175.00 400.00 37/27
1950 Bowman#43 Marion Motley 175.00 375.00 31/25
1950 Bowman#45 Otto Graham 315.00 750.00 62/47
1950 Bowman#51 Tom Fears 110.00 200.00 22/34
1950 Bowman#52 Elroy Hirsch 150.00 300.00 26/39
1950 Bowman#78 Dante Lavelli 85.00 170.00 21/32
1951 Bowman#4 Norm Van Brocklin 300.00 900.00 32/24
1951 Bowman#21 Arnie Weinmeister 55.00 105.00 8/18
1951 Bowman#62 Lou Creekmur 50.00 100.00 11/12
1951 Bowman#91 Emlen Tunnell 100.00 175.00 19/14
1951 Bowman#96 Ernie Stautner 100.00 175.00 20/25
1952 Bowman Small#16 Frank Gifford 365.00 1000.00 33/14
1952 Bowman Small#23 Gino Marchetti 125.00 300.00 11/14
1952 Bowman Small#29 Hugh McElhenny 165.00 400.00 12/17
1952 Bowman Small#46 Art Donovan 200.00 550.00 10/9
1952 Bowman Small#57 Wayne Millner 50.00 160.00 8/9
1952 Bowman Small#85 Andy Robustelli 100.00 300.00 10/6
1952 Bowman Small#99 Joe Stydahar 55.00 165.00 6/2
1952 Bowman Small#127 Ollie Matson 130.00 500.00 8/4
1952 Bowman Small#129 Jack Christiansen 85.00 240.00 7/5
1952 Bowman Small#140 Yale Lary 85.00 250.00 10/6
1954 Bowman#4 Doug Atkins 40.00 80.00 16/30
1954 Bowman#23 George Blanda 150.00 355.00 60/46
1955 Bowman#2 Mike McCormack 25.00 55.00 10/14
1955 Bowman#14 Len Ford 25.00 60.00 19/21
1955 Bowman#42 John Henry Johnson 35.00 70.00 35/32
1955 Bowman#70 Jim Ringo 40.00 75.00 13/10
1955 Bowman#101 Bob St.Clair 25.00 55.00 6/4
1955 Bowman#119 Frank Gatski 35.00 65.00 5/21
1955 Topps All-American#27 Red Grange 235.00 410.00 73/85
1955 Topps All-American#28 Mel Hein 55.00 110.00 13/42
1955 Topps All-American#37 Jim Thorpe 350.00 750.00 74/66
1955 Topps All-American#56 Ernie Nevers 85.00 165.00 35/37
1955 Topps All-American#66 Bruiser Kinard 45.00 95.00 26/32
1955 Topps All-American#84 Ace Parker 55.00 125.00 25/29
1955 Topps All-American#97 Don Hutson 180.00 325.00 27/56
1955 Topps All-American#100 Wilbur”Fats” Henry 150.00 375.00 39/39
1956 Topps#41 Roosevelt Brown 30.00 85.00 26/37
1956 Topps#44 Joe Schmidt 40.00 85.00 21/32
1956 Topps#47 Bill George 30.00 65.00 16/47
1956 Topps#60 Lenny Moore 90.00 245.00 38/40
1956 Topps#71 Stan Jones 28.00 65.00 17/21
1957 Topps#85 Dick Lane 45.00 100.00 40/25
1957 Topps#94 Raymond Berry 140.00 300.00 53/19
1957 Topps#119 Bart Starr 385.00 1150.00 122/51
1957 Topps#124 Tommy McDonald 30.00 65.00 18/17
1957 Topps#138 Johnny Unitas 390.00 925.00 237/110
1957 Topps#151 Paul Hornung 375.00 1125.00 86/42
1958 Topps#62 Jim Brown 465.00 1250.00 176/111
1958 Topps#90 Sonny Jurgensen 85.00 200.00 45/52
1959 Topps#51 Sam Huff 35.00 85.00 36/57
1959 Topps#132 Jim Parker 25.00 50.00 20/31
1959 Topps#140 Bobby Mitchell 30.00 65.00 54/76
1959 Topps#155 Jim Taylor 30.00 65.00 32/66
1960 Fleer#118 Ron Mix 45.00 70.00 20/20
1960 Topps#56 Forrest Gregg 38.00 65.00 39/34
1961 Fleer#197 Jim Otto 55.00 90.00 50/92
1961 Fleer#215 Don Maynard 75.00 135.00 36/73
1961 Topps#45 Henry Jordan 25.00 55.00 9/11
1962 Fleer#16 Billy Shaw 20.00 35.00 4/2
1962 Topps#17 Mike Ditka 210.00 680.00 54/33
1962 Topps#90 Fran Tarkenton 225.00 650.00 81/48
1963 Fleer#10 Nick Buoniconti 70.00 135.00 13/26
1963 Fleer#47 Len Dawson 185.00 350.00 45/65
1963 Fleer#72 Lance Alworth 175.00 325.00 31/44
1963 Topps#44 Deacon Jones 55.00 110.00 50/45
1963 Topps#82 Bob Lilly 135.00 250.00 47/22
1963 Topps#95 Willie Wood 35.00 60.00 24/37
1963 Topps#96 Ray Nitschke 85.00 165.00 36/38
1963 Topps#155 Larry Wilson 25.00 55.00 13/37
1964 Philadelphia#3 John Mackey 30.00 60.00 9/17
1964 Philadelphia#71 Herb Adderley 30.00 60.00 27/50
1964 Philadelphia#72 Willie Davis 30.00 60.00 21/51
1964 Philadelphia#91 Merlin Olsen 45.00 75.00 48/115
1964 Philadelphia#161 Jim Johnson 18.00 32.00 2/11
1964 Topps#90 Bobby Bell 35.00 60.00 9/36
1964 Topps#92 Buck Buchanan 35.00 60.00 12/28
1965 Philadelphia#41 Paul Warfield 75.00 120.00 47/60
1965 Philadelphia#53 Mel Renfro 45.00 80.00 7/12
1965 Philadelphia#189 Paul Krause 22.00 40.00 12/26
1965 Philadelphia#195 Charley Taylor 55.00 100.00 18/21
1965 Topps#46 Willie Brown 100.00 145.00 3/6
1965 Topps#122 Joe Namath 1350.00 3900.00 54/27
1965 Topps#133 Fred Biletnikoff 245.00 435.00 14/8
1966 Philadelphia#31 Dick Butkus 250.00 550.00 60/48
1966 Philadelphia#38 Gale Sayers 210.00 500.00 161/134
1967 Philadelphia#43 Leroy Kelly 38.00 75.00 7/5
1967 Philadelphia#165 Jackie Smith 18.00 30.00 0/2
1967 Philadelphia#178 Dave Wilcox 8.00 15.00 2/2
1968 Topps#196 Bob Griese 90.00 185.00 62/69
1969 Topps#120 Larry Csonka 70.00 120.00 125/132

PSA RC LIST PSA 8 POP
1970 Topps#25 Jan Stenerud 28.00 12
1970 Topps#59 Alan Page 50.00 92
1970 Topps#75 Lem Barney 28.00 14
1970 Topps#90 OJ Simpson 85.00 159
1970 Topps#151 Tom Mack 20.00 10
1971 Topps#113 Ken Houston 35.00 62
1971 Topps#114 Willie Lanier 35.00 61
1971 Topps#156 Terry Bradshaw 265.00 209
1971 Topps#245 Joe Greene 85.00 69
1972 Topps#13 John Riggins 50.00 70
1972 Topps#93 Ted Hendricks 35.00 12
1972 Topps#104 Ron Yary 25.00 21
1972 Topps#186 Gene Upshaw 30.00 21
1972 Topps#200 Roger Staubach 300.00 122
1972 Topps#240 Larry Little 30.00 23
1972 Topps#244 Charlie Joiner 40.00 51
1973 Topps#77 Art Shell 30.00 27
1973 Topps#89 Franco Harris 75.00 87
1973 Topps#115 Jack Ham 55.00 40
1973 Topps#322 Dan Dierdorf 30.00 19
1973 Topps#341 Jim Langer 20.00 13
1973 Topps#343 Jack Youngblood 30.00 14
1973 Topps#487 Ken Stabler*F 100.00 51
1974 Topps#383 John Hannah 21.00 12
1975 Topps#12 Mel Blount 28.00 58
1975 Topps#282 Lynn Swann 70.00 125
1975 Topps#367 Dan Fouts 65.00 138
1976 Topps#148 Walter Payton 180.00 922
1976 Topps#158 Randy White 45.00 105
1976 Topps#220 Jack Lambert 50.00 94
1977 Topps#29 LeeRoy Selmon 18.00 12
1977 Topps#50 Mike Haynes 12.00 5
1977 Topps#99 Mike Webster 20.00 33
1977 Topps#177 Steve Largent 55.00 265
1977 Topps#380 Dave Casper 15.00 2
1978 Topps#315 Tony Dorsett 50.00 320
1978 Topps#320 John Stallworth 20.00 155
1979 Topps#308 Ozzie Newsome 15.00 51
1979 Topps#310 James Lofton*F 15.00 63
1979 Topps#390 Earl Campbell 35.00 275

PSA RC LIST PSA 8 PSA 9 POP
1981 Topps#150 Kellen Winslow 8.00 25.00 116/79
1981 Topps#194 Art Monk*F 12.00 36.00 293/168
1981 Topps#216 Joe Montana 132.00 265.00 2864/698
1981 Topps#316 Dan Hampton 8.00 24.00 8/5
1982 Topps#51 Anthony Munoz 8.00 21.00 42/13
1982 Topps#434 Lawrence Taylor 17.00 60.00 336/70
1982 Topps#486 Ronnie Lott 13.00 45.00 211/26
1983 Topps#38 Mike Singletary 8.00 22.00 145/71
1983 Topps#294 Marcus Allen*F 15.00 46.00 824/386
1984 Topps#111 Howie Long 10.00 42.00 169/86
1984 Topps#129 Dwight Stephenson 6.00 18.00 3/0
1984 Topps#280 Eric Dickerson 7.00 25.00 843/393
1984 Topps#286 Jackie Slater 6.00 18.00 6/1
1984 Topps USFL#36 Jim Kelly 50.00 155.00 275/119
1985 Topps#253 Mike Munchak 8.00 20.00 3/1

Text

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 8:26AM

Well since everyone else is publishing their lists, I guess so will I. Im taking out the admin/coaches and oddballs.

1933 Goudey Sports Kings
Harold "Red" Grange
Jim Thorpe

1935 NATIONAL CHICLE
Albert "Turk" Edwards
Earl "Dutch" Clark
Ken Strong
Cliff Battles
Clarke Hinkle
Bronko Nagurski

1948 Bowman
Clyde "Bulldog" Turner
Alex Wojciechowicz
Steve Van Buren
Sammy Baugh
Charley Trippi

1948 Leaf
Chuck Bednarik
Leo Nomellini
George Connor
Sid Luckman
Bobby Layne
Bob Waterfield
Doak Walker
George McAfee
Bill Dudley
Pete Pihos

1950 Bowman
Lou Groza
Y.A. Tittle
Otto Graham
Tony Canadeo
Joe Perry
Marion Motley
Tom Fears
Elroy Hirsch
Dante Lavelli

1951 Bowman
Ernie Stautner
Lou Creekmur
Arnie Weinmeister
Norm Van Brocklin
Emlen Tunnell

1952 Bowman
Gino Marchetti
Andy Robustelli
Art Donovan
Steve Owen
Joe Stydahar
Frank Gifford
Hugh McElhenny
Ollie Matson
Jack Christiansen
Yale Lary
George Halas
Wayne Millner

1954 Bowman
Doug Atkins
George Blanda

1955 Bowman
Jim Ringo
Len Ford
Mike McCormack
Bob St. Clair
Frank Gatski
John Henry Johnson

1955 Topps All American
Mel Hein
Frank "Bruiser" Kinard
Wilbur "Fats" Henry
Clarence "Ace" Parker
Ernie Nevers
Don Hutson

1956 Topps
Joe Schmidt
Bill George
Roosevelt Brown
Stan Jones
Lenny Moore

1957 Topps
Dick "Night Train" Lane
Bart Starr
Johnny Unitas
Paul Hornung
Raymond Berry
Tommy McDonald

1958 Topps
Sonny Jurgensen
Jim Brown

1959 Topps
Jim Parker
Sam Huff
Jim Taylor
Bobby Mitchell

1960 Fleer
Ron Mix

1960 Topps
Forrest Gregg

1961 Topps
Henry Jordan
Jim Otto
Don Maynard

1962 Fleer
Billy Shaw

1962 Topps
Fran Tarkenton
Mike Ditka

1963 Fleer
Nick Buoniconti
Len Dawson
Lance Alworth

1963 Topps
David "Deacon" Jones
Bob Lilly
Ray Nitschke
Willie Wood
Larry Wilson

1964 Philadelphia
Herb Adderley
Jimmy Johnson
Willie Davis
Merlin Olsen
John Mackey

1964 Topps
Buck Buchanan
Bobby Bell

1965 Philadelphia
Mel Renfro
Paul Krause
Paul Warfield
Charley Taylor

1965 Topps
Willie Brown
Joe Namath
Fred Biletnikoff

1966 Philadelphia
Dick Butkus
Gale Sayers

1967 Philadelphia
Dave Wilcox
Leroy Kelly
Jackie Smith

1968 Topps
Bob Griese

1969 Topps
Larry Csonka

1970 Topps
Lem Barney
Alan Page
Tom Mack
Jan Stenerud
O.J. Simpson

1971 Topps
Joe Greene
Willie Lanier
Terry Bradshaw
Ken Houston

1972 Topps
Gene Upshaw
Larry Little
Ted Hendricks
Ron Yary
Roger Staubach
John Riggins
Charlie Joiner

1973 Topps
Jim Langer
Jack Youngblood
Jack Ham
Art Shell
Dan Dierdorf
Franco Harris

1974 Topps
John Hannah

1975 Topps
Mel Blount
Dan Fouts
Lynn Swann

1976 Topps
Randy White
Jack Lambert
Walter Payton

1977 Topps
Mike Webster
Mike Haynes
Lee Roy Selmon
Dave Casper
Steve Largent

1978 Topps
Tony Dorsett
John Stallworth

1979 Topps
Earl Campbell
Ozzie Newsome

1981 Topps
Dan Hampton
Joe Montana
Kellen Winslow

1982 Topps
Ronnie Lott
Lawrence Taylor
Anthony Munoz

1983 Topps
Mike Singletary

1984 Topps
Dwight Stephenson
Howie Long
Mike Munchak
Eric Dickerson

1985 Topps
Jackie Slater

1987 Topps
Jim Kelly-------Remember, he was not inducted into the HOF because of his USFL stats.

Davemri · January 15, 2003 10:16AM

Hi, I was told you cant do that on the registry. Its either open to all the players many years or down to one specific card.

It can be done. Take a look at the top 200 cards in history. It includes many cards that have other variations. You have four choices for the T-206 Cobb for example. If you have one of the 4, you can register it.

I think this is the best way to do the set so you may choose the card to include.

All our lists seem very similar except for the oddballs you included.

dave

Davemri · January 15, 2003 10:17AM

Here is the set im referring to

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 10:34AM

hmmm, when i submitted the set to PSA and they came back and asked for a complete list they said I could only submit one because the database was not set up for multiple variations. Ill contact BJ for clarification.

here is what was origionally sent to me the thread starts at the bottom and works its way up.

Yes, please use excel.

The only way our system can handle this type of set is by selecting one card. Pick which you think would be the most popular for that player.

Thanks for your help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Jacobs [mailto:rjacobs0@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:59 PM
To: Searls, BJ
Subject: Re: HOF rookie set

Hi, that would be no problem at all. I have 2 questions though.

1) is the list in an excel spreadsheet ok? and
2) how do I handle players with more then 1 official rookie card? do I list
them all or pick the one I want?

Robert...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Searls, BJ" <bj@collectors.com>
To: <rjacobs0@pacbell.net>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 2:18 PM
Subject: HOF rookie set

You have requested a HOF rookie football set. If you would put together a
list of rookie cards that you would like to see in the set, it would greatly
speed up the process. The HOF rookie baseball set was composed by the
person who requested the set and then was approved by one of our experts.

Is this something you could do for us?

BJ Searls
Set Registry Manager
Collectors Universe
512.496.5018
512.420.8805 Fax

Check out my Raw NFL HOF RC's on ebay. My username is wirelesslanman

Davemri · January 15, 2003 10:40AM

So your wirelessman. LOL... I have seen your name alot recently and have bid on some stuff also i believe. You look like you have one heck of a collection going. I am currently only at 5% on the HOF registry, but I am also working on many other sports. (Take a look at my website if you havnt already) Not to mention my limited budget. (I usually go for lesser grades)

I would ask BJ about the OR option. Maybe it was just done To compliment Joes book. Let me know what you find out.

Dave

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 11:18AM

Well that was fast. Here is BJ's responce.

Robert,

Unfortunately, no. Note that the either/or situations throughout the registry occur only with the same type card. In other words, in the Top 200 set, the either/ors are all T206's. The way the registry is programmed now it is impossible to set up an either/or for Bowman/Leaf issues. Eventually, the registry will be reprogrammed and this is something we will address at that time. Please let me know if you have any other questions or comments.

BJ

That means we have to pick only one. This option can only be used with variations of the same card, not differnt cards.

Im always putting more cars up for auction. This week is a big HOF Rookie batch going up in parts. Check it ou you might find something you like. I think a great item I have up on ebay right now is a 1950 Bowman Dante Lavelli HOF RC. The only flaw on it is the upper left corner is a little fuzzy. Only starting at 50.00. (I know, shameless plug)

Check out my Raw NFL RC's on Ebay. My username is wirelesslanman.

Davemri · January 15, 2003 11:39AM

I found 165 Rc's not counting this year and i believe you had 167? I think you have some coaches listed.
1. Steve Owen
2. George Halas

Well, that leaves us with 10 cards that we must decide upon
1948 Leaf or Bowman??
Sammy Baugh
Sid Luckman
Steve Van Buren
Bob Waterfield
Bill Dudley
George McAfee
Charlie Trippi
Pete Pihos

1961 Topps or Fleer
Jim Otto
Don Maynard

I believe those are the only ones i could find. I was also wonder about the 52 Bowman. Will it be able to take both small and large. I assume these are considered variations and it will take both. But it should be checked into.

dave

AlanAllen · January 15, 2003 2:34PM

OK, you guys beat my down, I'll accept that there will be no oddballs or coaches/admins on the list. We can use the existing master NFL HOF list for that. I also agree, after sleeping on it,

that the NFL RC should be the one used on the list. Kelly is the only one this applies to now, but soon we'll have to deal with Reggie White, Steve Young, Warren Moon, and maybe Herschel Walker.

I still disagree with you guys on the 1950 Topps Feltbacks. There are many cards in that set considered true RCs by the hobby, and we should include them. There is no SMR listing for them, but if you look at Stautner and Creekmur in 1951 Bowman, they are not noted as RCs. Beckett calls the 1950 Topps Feltbacks of Stautner and Creekmur RCs.

I do think the tie-breaker should be SMR for a PSA 8. So, the 1948's would look like this:
Clyde "Bulldog" Turner 1948 Bowman 36
Alex Wojciechowicz 1948 Bowman 61
Pete Pihos 1948 Bowman 63
Sid Luckman 1948 Leaf 1
Doak Walker 1948 Leaf 4
Bobby Layne 1948 Leaf 6
George McAfee 1948 Leaf 19
Steve Van Buren 1948 Leaf 22
Bob Waterfield 1948 Leaf 26
Charley Trippi 1948 Leaf 29
Sammy Baugh 1948 Leaf 34
Bill Dudley 1948 Leaf 36
George Connor 1948 Leaf 37
Leo Nomellini 1948 Leaf 52
Chuck Bednarik 1948 Leaf 54

And the 1952 Bowmans should be the large version, as they are more valuable across the board.

The 1961 Otto and Maynard should be the Fleers because they are more valuable.

I put together a proposed weighting based on SMR for a PSA 8 where available, and estimations for unlisted cards.

HOF Member Rookie Card SMR 8 Weight
Harold "Red" Grange 1933 Goudey Sports Kings $3,200 6.5
Jim Thorpe 1933 Goudey Sports Kings $3,500 6.5

Earl "Dutch" Clark 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $3,300 6.5
Ken Strong 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $2,000 5.5
Cliff Battles 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $1,000 4.5
Albert "Turk" Edwards 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $1,500 5
Clarke Hinkle 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $1,200 4.5
Bronko Nagurski 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $20,000 10

Clyde "Bulldog" Turner 1948 Bowman $500 3.5
Alex Wojciechowicz 1948 Bowman $220 2
Pete Pihos 1948 Bowman $450 3

Sid Luckman 1948 Leaf $1,300 5
Doak Walker 1948 Leaf $575 3.5
Bobby Layne 1948 Leaf $1,500 5
George McAfee 1948 Leaf $565 3.5
Steve Van Buren 1948 Leaf $600 3.5
Bob Waterfield 1948 Leaf $725 3.5
Charley Trippi 1948 Leaf $525 3.5
Sammy Baugh 1948 Leaf $2,500 6
Bill Dudley 1948 Leaf $400 3
George Connor 1948 Leaf $350 3
Leo Nomellini 1948 Leaf $1,400 5
Chuck Bednarik 1948 Leaf $1,500 5

Y.A. Tittle 1950 Bowman $700 3.5
Lou Groza 1950 Bowman $300 2.5
Tony Canadeo 1950 Bowman $150 2
Joe Perry 1950 Bowman $400 3
Marion Motley 1950 Bowman $375 3
Otto Graham 1950 Bowman $750 4
Tom Fears 1950 Bowman $200 2
Elroy Hirsch 1950 Bowman $300 2.5
Dante Lavelli 1950 Bowman $170 2

Lou Creekmur 1950 Topps Felt Back $180 2
Ernie Stautner 1950 Topps Felt Back $400 3

Norm Van Brocklin 1951 Bowman $900 4
Arnie Weinmeister 1951 Bowman $105 1.5
Emlen Tunnell 1951 Bowman $175 2

Steve Owen 1952 Bowman Large $350 3
Frank Gifford 1952 Bowman Large $1,100 4.5
Gino Marchetti 1952 Bowman Large $350 3
Hugh McElhenny 1952 Bowman Large $400 3
Art Donovan 1952 Bowman Large $600 3.5
George Halas 1952 Bowman Large $450 3
Wayne Millner 1952 Bowman Large $225 2
Andy Robustelli 1952 Bowman Large $350 3
Joe Stydahar 1952 Bowman Large $1,000 4.5
Ollie Matson 1952 Bowman Large $900 4
Jack Christiansen 1952 Bowman Large $325 2.5
Yale Lary 1952 Bowman Large $325 2.5

Doug Atkins 1954 Bowman $80 1
George Blanda 1954 Bowman $355 3

Mike McCormack 1955 Bowman $55 1
Len Ford 1955 Bowman $60 1
John Henry Johnson 1955 Bowman $70 1
Jim Ringo 1955 Bowman $75 1
Bob St. Clair 1955 Bowman $55 1
Frank Gatski 1955 Bowman $65 1

Mel Hein 1955 Topps All American $110 1.5
Ernie Nevers 1955 Topps All American $165 2
Frank "Bruiser" Kinard 1955 Topps All American $95 1
Clarence "Ace" Parker 1955 Topps All American $125 1.5
Don Hutson 1955 Topps All American $325 2.5
Wilbur "Fats" Henry 1955 Topps All American $375 3

Roosevelt Brown 1956 Topps $85 1
Joe Schmidt 1956 Topps $85 1
Bill George 1956 Topps $65 1
Lenny Moore 1956 Topps $245 2
Stan Jones 1956 Topps $65 1

Dick "Night Train" Lane 1957 Topps $100 1.5
Raymond Berry 1957 Topps $300 2.5
Bart Starr 1957 Topps $1,150 4.5
Tommy McDonald 1957 Topps $65 1
Johnny Unitas 1957 Topps $925 4
Paul Hornung 1957 Topps $1,125 4.5

Jim Brown 1958 Topps $1,250 5
Sonny Jurgensen 1958 Topps $200 2

Sam Huff 1959 Topps $85 1
Jim Parker 1959 Topps $50 1
Bobby Mitchell 1959 Topps $65 1
Jim Taylor 1959 Topps $65 1

Ron Mix 1960 Fleer $70 1

Forrest Gregg 1960 Topps $65 1

Jim Otto 1961 Fleer $90 1
Don Maynard 1961 Fleer $135 1.5

Henry Jordan 1961 Topps $55 1

Billy Shaw 1962 Fleer $35 0.5

Mike Ditka 1962 Topps $680 3.5
Fran Tarkenton 1962 Topps $650 3.5

Nick Buoniconti 1963 Fleer $135 1.5
Len Dawson 1963 Fleer $350 3
Lance Alworth 1963 Fleer $325 2.5

David "Deacon" Jones 1963 Topps $110 1.5
Bob Lilly 1963 Topps $250 2.5
Willie Wood 1963 Topps $60 1
Ray Nitschke 1963 Topps $165 2
Larry Wilson 1963 Topps $55 1

John Mackey 1964 Philadelphia $60 1
Herb Adderley 1964 Philadelphia $60 1
Willie Davis 1964 Philadelphia $60 1
Merlin Olsen 1964 Philadelphia $75 1
Jimmy Johnson 1964 Philadelphia $32 0.5

Bobby Bell 1964 Topps $60 1
Buck Buchanan 1964 Topps $60 1

Paul Warfield 1965 Philadelphia $120 1.5
Mel Renfro 1965 Philadelphia $80 1
Paul Krause 1965 Philadelphia $40 0.5
Charley Taylor 1965 Philadelphia $100 1.5

Willie Brown 1965 Topps $145 1.5
Joe Namath 1965 Topps $3,900 7
Fred Biletnikoff 1965 Topps $435 3

Dick Butkus 1966 Philadelphia $550 3.5
Gale Sayers 1966 Philadelphia $500 3.5

Leroy Kelly 1967 Philadelphia $75 1
Jackie Smith 1967 Philadelphia $30 0.5
Dave Wilcox 1967 Philadelphia $15 0.5

Bob Griese 1968 Topps $185 2

Larry Csonka 1969 Topps $120 1.5

Jan Stenerud 1970 Topps $28 0.5
Alan Page 1970 Topps $50 1
Lem Barney 1970 Topps $28 0.5
O.J. Simpson 1970 Topps $85 1
Tom Mack 1970 Topps $20 0.5

Ken Houston 1971 Topps $35 0.5
Willie Lanier 1971 Topps $35 0.5
Terry Bradshaw 1971 Topps $265 2.5
Joe Greene 1971 Topps $85 1

John Riggins 1972 Topps $50 1
Ted Hendricks 1972 Topps $35 0.5
Ron Yary 1972 Topps $8 0.5
Gene Upshaw 1972 Topps $30 0.5
Roger Staubach 1972 Topps $300 2.5
Larry Little 1972 Topps $30 0.5
Charlie Joiner 1972 Topps $40 0.5

Art Shell 1973 Topps $30 0.5
Franco Harris 1973 Topps $75 1
Jack Ham 1973 Topps $55 1
Dan Dierdorf 1973 Topps $30 0.5
Jim Langer 1973 Topps $20 0.5
Jack Youngblood 1973 Topps $30 0.5

John Hannah 1974 Topps $21 0.5

Mel Blount 1975 Topps $28 0.5
Lynn Swann 1975 Topps $70 1
Dan Fouts 1975 Topps $65 1

Walter Payton 1976 Topps $180 2
Randy White 1976 Topps $45 0.5
Jack Lambert 1976 Topps $50 1

Lee Roy Selmon 1977 Topps $18 0.5
Mike Haynes 1977 Topps 0.5
Mike Webster 1977 Topps $20 0.5
Steve Largent 1977 Topps $55 1
Dave Casper 1977 Topps 0.5

Tony Dorsett 1978 Topps $50 1
John Stallworth 1978 Topps $20 0.5

Ozzie Newsome 1979 Topps $15 0.5
Earl Campbell 1979 Topps $35 0.5

Kellen Winslow 1981 Topps $8 0.5
Joe Montana 1981 Topps $132 1.5
Dan Hampton 1981 Topps 0.5

Anthony Munoz 1982 Topps $8 0.5
Lawrence Taylor 1982 Topps $17 0.5
Ronnie Lott 1982 Topps $13 0.5

Mike Singletary 1983 Topps $8 0.5

Howie Long 1984 Topps $10 0.5
Dwight Stephenson 1984 Topps 0.5
Eric Dickerson 1984 Topps $7 0.5
Jackie Slater 1984 Topps 0.5

Mike Munchak 1985 Topps 0.5

Jim Kelly 1987 Topps $6 0.5

168 cards total, set divisor is 339.5.

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 5:29PM

Joe, I like your listing and I will concede on the Leaf over Bowman issue for the 1948 issues, and I will even go for the 1961 fleer over topps if everyone else does also. I have always maintained the 1950 Felts were the true rookies for creekmur and statner.

Now with that said i whole heartly disagree with the inclusion of USFL cards. If we do that then we will also have to include CFL cards. Please lets stick with NFL issued cards only.

The weight grades on some of the cards,IMHO, are off. Is weight only decided by value? I thought scarcity had a factor. I think the 1950 Felts should be higher. Not only are they very hard to find, but in high grades they will be a great challenge. I also think the lowest grade for a card should be 1.

And if I understand BJ's responce, we should be able to have the large or small 1952 Bowmans, which I would like.

Check out my RAW HOF RC's on Ebay. My user name is wirelesslanman

4-Sport Fantasy Games, The way Fantasy Sports was meant to be played.

AlanAllen · January 15, 2003 5:55PM

Robert,
OK, we're on the same page with the '48 Leafs, '61 Fleers, '50 Feltbacks, and the USFL cards. I'm not sure about the '52 Bowmans, personally I'd prefer to see it Large only because they are more valuable, but I wouldn't argue if it were set up so you could register either. Maybe the larges could simply carry more weight, like when there is a variation for a card in a set (i.e. Whizzer White in '55 Topps All-American).

For the weighting, I put in the SMR for a PSA 8 and sorted them by value in Excel. Click on "rules" here to see their methodolology. Based on that, I used solely SMR values, not scarcity. For the Feltbacks, I estimated a PSA 8 at double raw Beckett. Since the Nagurski is more than 5 times more valuable than any other card in the set, I skewed the rest higher, starting with Namath at 7, and just estimated "slots" from there (all cards from $500-$725 are weighted 3.5, for example). Some sets do have weightings down to 0.5, and I think it is prudent for sets where the values vary so much. Not many sets have a $20,000 card and a $6 card

.

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 6:11PM

Joe,

Good Points, the only real problem is that SMR and what you really pay never agree. For instance, you have a PSA 8 1970 Topps Jan Steneraud at 25.00. On ebay you would be paying more like 100.00. But I guess we have to use something as a guide. So if we can get the others to agree we will have something to submit to PSA.

I also like your 1952 Bowman idea, maybe make the large issues .5 higher in weight?

Check out my NFL RAW HOF RC's on Ebay....

4-Sport Fantasy Games. Fantasy Sports the way it was ment to be played.

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 7:07PM

Yep, I think we have done well with this discussion. As stated previously, I like using the SMR value to determine which cards to include. Which means 3 cards from 48 Bowman, the rest from 48 Leaf, and 61 Fleer over Topps. Also concur that Coaches/admin should be on a different list, not this one. I will concede that the 50 Topps Felts are the TRUE RC's, although they could also be considered an oddball card set in the same way that a Jim Kelly USFL card is or say a parallel card from the newer issue. Yes, the Felts are NFL, but not particularly a BASE card set, I mean they are felt backs for goodness sake..LOL..But if everyone is agrees on those over the 51 Bowman for Stautner and Creekmur, then I will concur.

As far as the Jim Kelly RC, I don't care which way we go as long as there is consistency. The issues I think we still need resolution on are the Thorpe and Grange cards. 33 Goudey or 55 Topps All-American. If we go Goudey then we go USFL. If we go Topps A.A. then we go 1987 Topps Kelly. Otherwise, we are not setting a standard for other future card additions to be judged by(NFL only or not).

Also, what do about about the guys with no modern RC's? Do we leave them off or use oddball cards? I would rather leave them off in lieu of having a 1988 Swell card as one of the RC's. I think it would just downgrade the set as their value would be NIL.

I like the weighting system with one exception. I don't think many of us will EVER own a 35 Nagurski. Lets set the weight at 10 for any cards valued over $2,000 in SMR 8. Then work down from there with the lowest value a 1. That would make cards like Jim Brown RC weighted more like an 8 than a 5. I think it would make the list more accurate in the end.

JasP24

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 7:15PM

I like the way you stated the grading Joe are you willing to bump up the numbers this way?

But as far as the 33 goudys, I do not consider them an odd ball set, and many others dont also. Since they were the only sets being produced at the time they must be considered mainstream. The USFL cant be included in a NFL set.

Also if you look at Joes list he has no oddballs, like Swell in it.

Robert....

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 7:21PM

Im not saying the 33 Goudeys are oddballs. But they also aren't NFL issue cards. They were 4 Sport type cards. I think they fall into the same category as the USFL's. NFL HOF players, but not an NFL SET..

Just my opinion of course..LOL
JasP24

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 7:26PM

But at least the 33 goudey players played in what would become the NFL. USFL cards have nothing to do with the NFL. Stats incured by the USFL players while in that league do not transfer over to the NFL total stats.

They have no place in a NFL HOF Player Set, IMHO.

AlanAllen · January 15, 2003 7:45PM

I have to agree with Robert on the Sport Kings. They are generally considered a mainstream issue and are the first such of Grange and Thorpe in the NFL. Not the same beast at USFL cards IMHO.

I'm open to changing the weighting, but I don't think we should take into account that most of us will never own a certain card. If you look at the T206 HOF weighting,, Honus Wagner is the only 10 weight in the set. The vast majority of people collecting that set will never own a Honus, but it is clearly the most valuable card is is weighted such. How about we make the Namath weighted 9, Thorpe 8, etc., and make the lowest weight a 1 instead of 0.5?

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 7:49PM

Im open to that prospect. As the set stands now I am out about 10 entries I thought I had, but have changed due to the 48 and 61 manufacturer selections, but I can live with that.

Joe can you give us some preliminary weight numbers for discussion?

Robert....

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 8:26PM

Yes, that sounds good to me Joe. Lowest rating as a one, and just readjust the weights accordingly, utilizing the .5's. As far as the Grange and Thorpe go, I do agree that they were mainstream issues, but the USFL was also a mainstream issue. While the USFL stats are not included in the players HOF totals. The card is not of his stats, its of the player. And if you want Jim Kelly's TRUE mainstream RC, its the USFL card. Its 3 years before the 1987 issue, and it is far more valuable. CFL cards were regional issue, much like Team issue sets. Those are definite no-nos and are differnet than the USFL due to their limited release. The USFLs were a NATIONAL release. Just as mainstream as the 1987 Topps.

Look forward to seeing the updated weights..

Jason
JasP24

AlanAllen · January 15, 2003 8:38PM

Note that for the following players, SMR does not list a price.

Lou Creekmur 1950 Topps Felt Back
Ernie Stautner 1950 Topps Felt Back
Mike Haynes 1977 Topps
Dave Casper 1977 Topps
Dan Hampton 1981 Topps
Dwight Stephenson 1984 Topps
Jackie Slater 1984 Topps
Mike Munchak 1985 Topps

For Stautner and Creekmer I used double Beckett, and for the others I used straight Beckett.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I'll list them this time in descending SMR order.

HOF Member Rookie Card SMR 8 Weight

Bronko Nagurski 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $20,000 10

Joe Namath 1965 Topps $3,900 9

Jim Thorpe 1933 Goudey Sports Kings $3,500 8.5

Earl "Dutch" Clark 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $3,300 8
Harold "Red" Grange 1933 Goudey Sports Kings $3,200 8

Sammy Baugh 1948 Leaf $2,500 7.5

Ken Strong 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $2,000 7

Albert "Turk" Edwards 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $1,500 6.5
Bobby Layne 1948 Leaf $1,500 6.5
Chuck Bednarik 1948 Leaf $1,500 6.5
Leo Nomellini 1948 Leaf $1,400 6.5
Sid Luckman 1948 Leaf $1,300 6.5

Jim Brown 1958 Topps $1,250 6
Clarke Hinkle 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $1,200 6
Bart Starr 1957 Topps $1,150 6
Paul Hornung 1957 Topps $1,125 6
Frank Gifford 1952 Bowman Large $1,100 6

Cliff Battles 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE $1,000 5.5
Joe Stydahar 1952 Bowman Large $1,000 5.5
Johnny Unitas 1957 Topps $925 5.5
Norm Van Brocklin 1951 Bowman $900 5.5
Ollie Matson 1952 Bowman Large $900 5.5

Otto Graham 1950 Bowman $750 5
Bob Waterfield 1948 Leaf $725 5
Y.A. Tittle 1950 Bowman $700 5
Mike Ditka 1962 Topps $680 5
Fran Tarkenton 1962 Topps $650 5

Steve Van Buren 1948 Leaf $600 4.5
Art Donovan 1952 Bowman Large $600 4.5
Doak Walker 1948 Leaf $575 4.5
George McAfee 1948 Leaf $565 4.5
Dick Butkus 1966 Philadelphia $550 4.5
Charley Trippi 1948 Leaf $525 4.5

Clyde "Bulldog" Turner 1948 Bowman $500 4
Gale Sayers 1966 Philadelphia $500 4
Pete Pihos 1948 Bowman $450 4
George Halas 1952 Bowman Large $450 4
Fred Biletnikoff 1965 Topps $435 4

Bill Dudley 1948 Leaf $400 3.5
Joe Perry 1950 Bowman $400 3.5
Ernie Stautner 1950 Topps Felt Back $400 3.5
Hugh McElhenny 1952 Bowman Large $400 3.5
Marion Motley 1950 Bowman $375 3.5
Wilbur "Fats" Henry 1955 Topps All American $375 3.5
George Blanda 1954 Bowman $355 3.5
George Connor 1948 Leaf $350 3.5
Steve Owen 1952 Bowman Large $350 3.5
Gino Marchetti 1952 Bowman Large $350 3.5
Andy Robustelli 1952 Bowman Large $350 3.5
Len Dawson 1963 Fleer $350 3.5
Jack Christiansen 1952 Bowman Large $325 3.5
Yale Lary 1952 Bowman Large $325 3.5
Don Hutson 1955 Topps All American $325 3.5
Lance Alworth 1963 Fleer $325 3.5

Lou Groza 1950 Bowman $300 3
Elroy Hirsch 1950 Bowman $300 3
Raymond Berry 1957 Topps $300 3
Roger Staubach 1972 Topps $300 3
Terry Bradshaw 1971 Topps $265 3
Bob Lilly 1963 Topps $250 3
Lenny Moore 1956 Topps $245 3
Wayne Millner 1952 Bowman Large $225 3
Alex Wojciechowicz 1948 Bowman $220 3

Tom Fears 1950 Bowman $200 2.5
Sonny Jurgensen 1958 Topps $200 2.5
Bob Griese 1968 Topps $185 2.5
Lou Creekmur 1950 Topps Felt Back $180 2.5
Walter Payton 1976 Topps $180 2.5
Emlen Tunnell 1951 Bowman $175 2.5
Dante Lavelli 1950 Bowman $170 2.5
Ernie Nevers 1955 Topps All American $165 2.5
Ray Nitschke 1963 Topps $165 2.5

Tony Canadeo 1950 Bowman $150 2
Willie Brown 1965 Topps $145 2
Don Maynard 1961 Fleer $135 2
Nick Buoniconti 1963 Fleer $135 2
Joe Montana 1981 Topps $132 2
Clarence "Ace" Parker 1955 Topps All American $125 2
Paul Warfield 1965 Philadelphia $120 2
Larry Csonka 1969 Topps $120 2
Mel Hein 1955 Topps All American $110 2
David "Deacon" Jones 1963 Topps $110 2
Arnie Weinmeister 1951 Bowman $105 2

Dick "Night Train" Lane 1957 Topps $100 1.5
Charley Taylor 1965 Philadelphia $100 1.5
Frank "Bruiser" Kinard 1955 Topps All American $95 1.5
Jim Otto 1961 Fleer $90 1.5
Roosevelt Brown 1956 Topps $85 1.5
Joe Schmidt 1956 Topps $85 1.5
Sam Huff 1959 Topps $85 1.5
O.J. Simpson 1970 Topps $85 1.5
Joe Greene 1971 Topps $85 1.5
Doug Atkins 1954 Bowman $80 1.5
Mel Renfro 1965 Philadelphia $80 1.5
Jim Ringo 1955 Bowman $75 1.5
Merlin Olsen 1964 Philadelphia $75 1.5
Leroy Kelly 1967 Philadelphia $75 1.5
Franco Harris 1973 Topps $75 1.5
John Henry Johnson 1955 Bowman $70 1.5
Ron Mix 1960 Fleer $70 1.5
Lynn Swann 1975 Topps $70 1.5
Frank Gatski 1955 Bowman $65 1.5
Bill George 1956 Topps $65 1.5
Stan Jones 1956 Topps $65 1.5
Tommy McDonald 1957 Topps $65 1.5
Bobby Mitchell 1959 Topps $65 1.5
Jim Taylor 1959 Topps $65 1.5
Forrest Gregg 1960 Topps $65 1.5
Dan Fouts 1975 Topps $65 1.5
Len Ford 1955 Bowman $60 1.5
Willie Wood 1963 Topps $60 1.5
John Mackey 1964 Philadelphia $60 1.5
Herb Adderley 1964 Philadelphia $60 1.5
Willie Davis 1964 Philadelphia $60 1.5
Bobby Bell 1964 Topps $60 1.5
Buck Buchanan 1964 Topps $60 1.5
Mike McCormack 1955 Bowman $55 1.5
Bob St. Clair 1955 Bowman $55 1.5
Henry Jordan 1961 Topps $55 1.5
Larry Wilson 1963 Topps $55 1.5
Jack Ham 1973 Topps $55 1.5
Steve Largent 1977 Topps $55 1.5

Jim Parker 1959 Topps $50 1
Alan Page 1970 Topps $50 1
John Riggins 1972 Topps $50 1
Jack Lambert 1976 Topps $50 1
Tony Dorsett 1978 Topps $50 1
Randy White 1976 Topps $45 1
Paul Krause 1965 Philadelphia $40 1
Charlie Joiner 1972 Topps $40 1
Billy Shaw 1962 Fleer $35 1
Ken Houston 1971 Topps $35 1
Willie Lanier 1971 Topps $35 1
Ted Hendricks 1972 Topps $35 1
Earl Campbell 1979 Topps $35 1
Jimmy Johnson 1964 Philadelphia $32 1
Jackie Smith 1967 Philadelphia $30 1
Gene Upshaw 1972 Topps $30 1
Larry Little 1972 Topps $30 1
Art Shell 1973 Topps $30 1
Dan Dierdorf 1973 Topps $30 1
Jack Youngblood 1973 Topps $30 1
Jan Stenerud 1970 Topps $28 1
Lem Barney 1970 Topps $28 1
Mel Blount 1975 Topps $28 1
John Hannah 1974 Topps $21 1
Tom Mack 1970 Topps $20 1
Jim Langer 1973 Topps $20 1
Mike Webster 1977 Topps $20 1
John Stallworth 1978 Topps $20 1
Lee Roy Selmon 1977 Topps $18 1
Lawrence Taylor 1982 Topps $17 1
Dave Wilcox 1967 Philadelphia $15 1
Ozzie Newsome 1979 Topps $15 1
Ronnie Lott 1982 Topps $13 1
Howie Long 1984 Topps $10 1
Ron Yary 1972 Topps $8 1
Kellen Winslow 1981 Topps $8 1
Anthony Munoz 1982 Topps $8 1
Mike Singletary 1983 Topps $8 1
Eric Dickerson 1984 Topps $7 1
Mike Haynes 1977 Topps $6 1
Jim Kelly 1987 Topps $6 1
Dave Casper 1977 Topps $4 1
Jackie Slater 1984 Topps $4 1
Dan Hampton 1981 Topps $3 1
Dwight Stephenson 1984 Topps $1.25 1
Mike Munchak 1985 Topps $0.50 1
Divisor: 452

Feel free to tweak it. We've done well so far discussing and reaching concensus, I think.

Joe

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 8:39PM

In responce to Jason I agree the USFL sets are mainstream, but not of the NFL. And thats what this set is about.

Joe, those weights look great. does anyone else have anymore input? If not I would like to email the list and this discussion link to BJ for approval.

Robert...

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 8:59PM

I'm at 100% agreement on the weights..Excellent job Joe.

I agree the USFL card is not an NFL issue, BUT it is of an NFL HOF player. Same can be said for 33 Goudey, they are NOT NFL issue. If you want the TRUE RC of NFL HOFer Jim Kelly, its the 84 USFL card in my opinion. I guess we will agree to disagree on this particular card, and those of Reggie White and Steve Young in the future. Maybe we can let the PSA experts decide this one. I own both Kelly's and could go either way. But I look at card values as part of my card collecting, and the 87 Topps is virtually worthless. I would much rather have the TRUE first mainstream card which is also the more valuable card, but I am willing to go either way with it.

JasP24

AlanAllen · January 15, 2003 9:18PM

Maybe we should wait 9 days until the class of '03 is announced?

It's too bad we don't have a precedent for the Kelly. I couldn't find any similar situations in other sets.

Joe

p.s. Why the heck are we crazy football guys up all night?

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 9:41PM

Not up all night, just up very early..LOL

Well, Im sure that PSA wont get the new set up and running within the next 9 days, but at least we could get "The Word" on which cards we should be buying, and which ones we shouldn't. If we could get the head nod for Joe's list, which I think we are all in agreement on except for the Kelly USFL card, it would be helpful. Might as well go ahead and add the 1983 Topps Marcus Allen, he's a lock.

By the way, anyone know where to find some graded 1950 Topps Felt Backs???Yikes...

JasP24

Davemri · January 15, 2003 9:44PM

I agree with Jasp that the Usfl cards should be included but, am willing to go with the majority. I want to collect the best (most valuble) rookie card of hall of fame players. I also agree that the weights look great. Lets wait til the new class is announced to submit. I have been emailing BJ to get Magic Johnson and Drazen Petrovic added to the Basketball set, but just can seem to be done. After all, whats another week when weve been waiting months.

Sorry i couldnt stay up all night to hammer this thing out... Looks like you guys did great!!

dave

NFLHOFCollector · January 15, 2003 9:49PM

Well it seems dave and jason want usfl and joe and i dont. what do we do about it?

JasP24 · January 15, 2003 9:51PM

Please take a look at my post concerning 1950 Topps Felt Backs. We may have to change the Creekmur and Statner cards back to 1951 Bowman...

JasP24

Any word on NFL HOF Rookie Set???

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