AT vs. Real - the saga continues...
FC57Coins
Posts: 9,140 ✭
In the never ending quest to determine what’s real toning and what’s doctored, we’ve seen numerous isolated examples of what the consensus of board members say is real toning and what is not, but I’ve yet to see a side by side comparison of real versus doctored toning. I’m not talking here about the stuff that yells “look at me I’m fake”. I’m talking about the more subtle differences that make you scratch your head and maybe plunk down some of your hard earned cash for something that’s going to come back in a bodybag. Before I start, I want to make sure that everyone understands that A. I’m not an expert, B. I’ve picked up lots of information from board members such as Toneddollars, GSAGUY, Tonelover, Coingame2000 and many others and I want to thank them for imparting their knowledge. In addition I’ve picked up a lot of good information from the ANA toning video – and if anyone is going to get into toned dollars, or any other type of toned coins I fully recommend that you get this video and watch it several times.
OK – so what have I learned so far:
1.If it’s too pretty, then it better be in a slab, else you should hear the theme music of jaws playing in your head.
Some of you may recall some pictures that I posted when I started buying some low priced toned dollars and thought I had hit the jackpot - well - I've learned to be weary, but here's a perfect example of one that really perked my ears and turned out to be an AT. Now you may look at it and say - well - it should've been obvious - good for you - but to newbies, this may not be so obvious:
Compare that coin to the one below, and I'll talk about several factors that you should be looking at:
Looking at these two coins, one of the first things that I've been adviced and it is true for the most part, is that toning generally happens on just one side of the coin. Two sided toning is rarer than one sided, it does happen, but it's more infrequent.
Next I would point your attention to the toning patterns on the two coins. On the 1880 coin, the toning doesn't flow, it looks like it got put together all at once. Think of someone taking some sort of chemical, or perhaps putting this coin in an oven and cooking it. If you can picture the process of baking the color into the coin, or having the chemicals dry uniformly over the coin, then you start getting the idea of how the process might have taken place.
On the "smoking lady" the colors look totally different. They flow one from the other, they blend, and notice how smooth the colors are, as opposed to the splotchiness that you see on the 1880. Now smooth versus splotchiness is not a surefire determinant, but it should be something that you consider.
Next I would draw your attention to some of the detailed areas of the coin that you need to be looking at. One of these is the date. On the 1880, notice how the toning on the E PLURIBUS UNUM covers the entire motto, all the letters, and all the insides of the letters are the same, as if someone spray painted the area. On the smoking lady, notice how the letters are one color, and the toning inside the letters are another. Now ask yourself the question, how could someone have done that? The answer is they couldn't - and if they could, it would take them waaaaaaay too long to make it profitable, so this type of toning must've happened naturally. Another area to look at is the rim of the coin. Notice how on the smoking lady, the toning stops at the rim and the rim is a differnt color. On the 1880, the toning flows right over the rim. Again, you have to ask yourself the question, if I was "painting" this coin, could I stop at the rim, or better yet, and you can't see it on here, but if you look at some of these toned coins, you can, the toning color on the real coins, actually seeps in between the denticles, and the tops and sides of the denticles are often a different color. Again, not an easy thing to do.
2. Learn what colors happen and patterns naturally, normally, and what colors don’t usually happen, especially on 90% silver coins.
Some colors happen naturally, and some colors don't . Generally amazing, wow, knock your socks off kinda color doesn't happen naturally, so if you see raw coins with color that runs right up and slaps you, yours spidey sense should start going off.
Here are a couple more pictures of color that doesn't happen normally:
These blues and reds - though very pretty, just don't happen, unless you have very unusual circumstances, however, they're among the easiest colors for coin doctors to make, so be careful with these.
Some of the real coins just look different:
Even though this is a pretty wild coin, you can still tell instictively that there's a certain flow that just "seems" right.
Another thing that has helped me decipher some of the toning questions has been to learn what patterns look like.
End toning: as in the last coin in the picture above.
Envelope toning:
Frank
Album Toning:
Hopefully you're starting to get the hang of this, and I would hope that some of the real pros at this would lend their expertise to this thread, because it can turn into one of the really useful learning tools on this board.
I hope I didn't bore you to tears!
Frank
OK – so what have I learned so far:
1.If it’s too pretty, then it better be in a slab, else you should hear the theme music of jaws playing in your head.
Some of you may recall some pictures that I posted when I started buying some low priced toned dollars and thought I had hit the jackpot - well - I've learned to be weary, but here's a perfect example of one that really perked my ears and turned out to be an AT. Now you may look at it and say - well - it should've been obvious - good for you - but to newbies, this may not be so obvious:
Compare that coin to the one below, and I'll talk about several factors that you should be looking at:
Looking at these two coins, one of the first things that I've been adviced and it is true for the most part, is that toning generally happens on just one side of the coin. Two sided toning is rarer than one sided, it does happen, but it's more infrequent.
Next I would point your attention to the toning patterns on the two coins. On the 1880 coin, the toning doesn't flow, it looks like it got put together all at once. Think of someone taking some sort of chemical, or perhaps putting this coin in an oven and cooking it. If you can picture the process of baking the color into the coin, or having the chemicals dry uniformly over the coin, then you start getting the idea of how the process might have taken place.
On the "smoking lady" the colors look totally different. They flow one from the other, they blend, and notice how smooth the colors are, as opposed to the splotchiness that you see on the 1880. Now smooth versus splotchiness is not a surefire determinant, but it should be something that you consider.
Next I would draw your attention to some of the detailed areas of the coin that you need to be looking at. One of these is the date. On the 1880, notice how the toning on the E PLURIBUS UNUM covers the entire motto, all the letters, and all the insides of the letters are the same, as if someone spray painted the area. On the smoking lady, notice how the letters are one color, and the toning inside the letters are another. Now ask yourself the question, how could someone have done that? The answer is they couldn't - and if they could, it would take them waaaaaaay too long to make it profitable, so this type of toning must've happened naturally. Another area to look at is the rim of the coin. Notice how on the smoking lady, the toning stops at the rim and the rim is a differnt color. On the 1880, the toning flows right over the rim. Again, you have to ask yourself the question, if I was "painting" this coin, could I stop at the rim, or better yet, and you can't see it on here, but if you look at some of these toned coins, you can, the toning color on the real coins, actually seeps in between the denticles, and the tops and sides of the denticles are often a different color. Again, not an easy thing to do.
2. Learn what colors happen and patterns naturally, normally, and what colors don’t usually happen, especially on 90% silver coins.
Some colors happen naturally, and some colors don't . Generally amazing, wow, knock your socks off kinda color doesn't happen naturally, so if you see raw coins with color that runs right up and slaps you, yours spidey sense should start going off.
Here are a couple more pictures of color that doesn't happen normally:
These blues and reds - though very pretty, just don't happen, unless you have very unusual circumstances, however, they're among the easiest colors for coin doctors to make, so be careful with these.
Some of the real coins just look different:
Even though this is a pretty wild coin, you can still tell instictively that there's a certain flow that just "seems" right.
Another thing that has helped me decipher some of the toning questions has been to learn what patterns look like.
End toning: as in the last coin in the picture above.
Envelope toning:
Frank
Album Toning:
Hopefully you're starting to get the hang of this, and I would hope that some of the real pros at this would lend their expertise to this thread, because it can turn into one of the really useful learning tools on this board.
I hope I didn't bore you to tears!
Frank
0
Comments
what is difficult are the in-between cases of storage for years in this or that condition that "helps it along"
I've got some gently cleaned bust halves that i keep in kraft envelopes in my safety deposit that I hope will look nice in about 20 years. if they turn out good, will they be AT or "real"?? will it matter?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Rainbow Stars
Cointelevison
Wonderful explanation and examples. One of the best posts I've seen on this forum.
Thanks
An interesting aside, the gentleman from my local coin shop purchased 3 bags of Morgans. Out of the 3000 coins, about 200 were nicely toned. They were all sent to PCGS, and about 40 of them came back bodybagged. He resubmitted about 30 of them, and this time only 10 came back in a bag. NGC then slabbed these. At the time, it was a little confusing (they all came from the same 3 bags), but it is comforting to know they are so hard on them that your odds are pretty good, if it's holdered, it's real!
It can be very confusing for both collectors and dealers I'm sure - every day you see people arguing over whether something is artificially toned or not - hence the title to this post.
I was actually hoping some more of the "big boys" would've lent their comments to the post. I guess maybe if I put Pepperdoodles or Kincoin on the title some more folks will be willing to look in!
Frank
I also agree about it would be nice to hear some more comment on the issue. It seems if it's not an Ebay scandal or slamming an ebay seller about feedback it doesn't get much response. Although I'm sure plenty read this thread.
Hopefully some will take some advice you have given and at least stay away from what they think is a "deal" on a raw coin.
for posting a thread of educational and practical excellence. Well done!! Bear
Camelot
I don't think it got that way from soaking up peach juice in Laverre Redfield's basement.
Here's another one me & stman were talking about when he bought his Purple Lady Morgan. First of all let me say stman's is original and this one has been lightly wiped or brushed because it has many small fine hairlines on both sides that aint die polish
At least the fingerprints are original.
I really don't have any blantant AT to show, everytime I see a good one on eBay it always seems to sell for a premium and that's bs.
Here's one that I got from a board member on eBay. He said that it was probably AT and I probably agree. Nothing that I can really put my finger on but this one just doesn't "look" right. At first glance it looks like bag tone with textile on it or maybe even tab tone from a holder but the blue area in the lower hair looks like chemicals were involved. Probably just chemical cleaned & retoned or maybe it was in a sock drawer for a long time. Could have been done intentionally making it a true AT. I'm pretty sure this would NG at a service.
If one of those famous monster dealers like Anaconda got it into a slab and talked it up right it would probably be worth some $$.
IrishMike - the stains on your Redfield dollar look alot like the stains on this dollar that I got from boardmember Tonelover (Jon):
A lot of the 97S's came out on the market came fromt he Redfield hoard and if you look around the motto on the obverse, you'll see some cloudiness that looks an awful lot like some sort of juice or something got on this piece as well.
Bailey - If you read through Dog97's postings you may get an answer to your previous question
Dog97 - two questions for you. First of all, if the 83CC is in a GSA holder, and it shows no evidence of tampering, what would make you think that the toning on your piece would be artificial (other than maybe obtained from storage, but that would mean real in my book I think). The second question - what's with your "Smoking Head" lady - can we see a bigger scan of her?
Regards,
Frank
Really good post, and I appreciate your effort. What I like best about the first pic set is how you illustrated the color on the 81 spilling over the rim at 8:00. AT sure is tough sometimes, and that's a pretty good indicator I would not have considered.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
FC57Coin nothing makes me think the 83-CC is AT but if I saw it raw I would be thinking that because it is so wild looking it couldn't be real because like Baley said it really doesn't have that <<<genuine "old timey" toning<<< look to it.
I really don't know what's up with the Smokin Head, some kind of endroller I guess. I like the weird ones. There's larger rev & obv picts at the NGC Registry SET Got some weird ones there like "Liberty under water with her head on fire" (85-O) and "Godzilla's thumbprint" (97-P).
an informative thread, but i will still say that the argument shouldn't be what can be slabed or not (unless you care about plastic & nothing more than plastic), but what you happen to like. i happen to LOVE w-r toning, but i consider album-tone to be artificial.
K S
K S
I am always uncomfortable making general statements and assessing coins based on images. So, I will compromise here and make a few general statements, but not base them on the images posted here.
I agree completely, that it is very important to learn what colors different types of coins are likely to acquire naturally. Certain coins / metals simply don't tone particular colors on their own. Copper, nickel and silver coins each oxidize to their own unique natural colors and patterns. The vibrant blues and reds that might be natural on a silver coin will most likely not appear on a nickel or copper coin, for instance. Conversely, the subtle blues and yellows that proof nickel coinage often turns, will not occur naturally on copper or silver coins, and so so.
Artificial toning, as you mentioned, doesn't typically flow the way natural color does. For instance, If you have a coin with concentric circles of color, if it is original, the change from one color to the next will be more subtle and less defined / distinct. It simply blends differently than if it were artificial.
On the subject of coins with toning on one side, rather than two - there are plenty of coins with two sided toning, but the natural ones usually don't have both the same color AND the same pattern on each side. If the toning is natural, perhaps the color at the top (or bottom) of one side will match part of the color on the corresponding portion of the side.
If you suspect that a coin in not original (or even if you think it's ok, for that matter), look for defects / problems (hairlines, abrasions, cleaning, etc.) that someone might have been trying to cover up with the color. Some artificial color is added to very high quality coins, simply to make them more attractive. However, in many cases, the enhanced / added toning is there to cover up something - look for those possible reasons / /problems when examining toned coins.
Again, thanks for a highly informative post.
Toned coins can bring the premiums. they can also bite you in the ass if you aren't too informed. Someone mention only buying something slabbed if I recall. That is by no means something is authentic. Opinions vary from person to person. Coin doctors are
practicing a fine art after the fact also. Don't settle for the security oif buying plastic.
Know what you are buying. I buy 85% or so of my coins raw, including Mint Sets. Learn as much as you can. That slab is no guarantee by any means.
Once again, a very good thread. Kscope
<< <i>I agree completely, that it is very important to learn what colors different types of coins are likely to acquire naturally. Certain coins / metals simply don't tone particular colors on their own. Copper, nickel and silver coins each oxidize to their own unique natural colors and patterns. The vibrant blues and reds that might be natural on a silver coin will most likely not appear on a nickel or copper coin, for instance. Conversely, the subtle blues and yellows that proof nickel coinage often turns, will not occur naturally on copper or silver coins, and so so. >>
i will still say that copper turns to brown, silver to grey, & any deviation is the result of artifiical toning. the question is purely a subjective 1, as to whether you like it or not.
as if grading were not subjective enough, throw in the question of toning, & an already complex issue become unmanageable. that is why i continue to push the concept that you should buy exactly what you like. then, you cannot be ripped off. & i am tired of plastic companies trying to tell me what i am allowed to like, & what is barred from being enjoyed as a collector.
K S
As you would say. "I disagree."
I have no problem, whatsoever, with people buying what they like. But, that does not mean they wont get ripped off! If someone buys toned coins that are not "market acceptable" - that many or most believe to be artificially toned, when it comes time for that person (or his/her heir) to sell, the price they will receive will most likely be extremely disappointing, to say the least.
Perhaps you don't consider that a rip-off, but try telling that to the would-be seller. Yes, people can also get ripped off buying toned (or untoned) coins certified by major grading services but, with a bit of caution and sense, the odds can be reduced considerably, that way.
Buy what you like BUT consider the future financial consequences if others don't like what you do.
<< <i>i am tired of plastic companies trying to tell me what i am allowed to like, & what is barred from being enjoyed as a collector. >>
I don't believe the grading companies are telling you anything, unless you are asking them. How can they tell you what you are allowed to like when you obviously do not respect their opinion and are not inclined to ask them?
Miss Cleo doesn't tell me anything. Unless I ask her. And if that happens I have made the choice to pay her for her sage advice. And in that case, she is entitled to her opinion--it was solicited. Same with the grading companies.
They can only enjoy as much power as you invest them with Karl.
And since you obviously are the Captain of your own ship, sometimes I think you expend a little too much energy worring about what they do.
Nonetheless, your good buddy,
Clankeye
PS: Frank-- great thread and good job. Thanks for putting in the work to make this forum better.
<< <i>I have no problem, whatsoever, with people buying what they like. But, that does not mean they wont get ripped off! If someone buys toned coins that are not "market acceptable" - that many or most believe to be artificially toned, when it comes time for that person (or his/her heir) to sell, the price they will receive will most likely be extremely disappointing, to say the least. >>
mark, please note that my statement is very much philosphical. i make that statement purely from a collector's point of view, which is ulitmately what i am (maybe i'm 25% vest-pocket dealer, & 75% collector). what i'm trying to say is that many of the coins i buy, i plan to KEEP. so it doesn't matter what i paid for it, i like it, & i don't care what pcgs, ngc, david hall, or the waitress at steak-&-shake thinks of the coin. i could pay $1000 at auction for a polished 1880-s morgan in xf, but if i like it enough, want it enough, & i don't care what anyone else thinks because i plan to keep it, then i would submit to you that $1000 was the right price for me to pay for it.
it is when the business aspects enter into consideration that the issues arise. unfortunately (imo), most folks look at it that way, afraid to take even the teeniest chance of paying 20% over retail for a coin because, omigosh, it might not get in the plastic!
now, i'm not stupid, & when i need to raise $ by cherrypicking the undergraded coins (thank you pcgs, ngc), or varieties, sure, i take into account the chances teh coin has on the generic slabs market, but as a collector, i still subscribe to that philosophy i've mentioend a few times:
"if you want a coin, really really want it, then it is impossible to pay too much for it".
this is what works for me, & i take a lot of pride in my collection. & i have that feeling that once all is said & done, when it comes time for me to sell (hopefully still a few decades away...), i am going to de quite well.
K S
<< <i>I don't believe the grading companies are telling you anything, >>
clankey, when you send a coin to pcgs, there is 1 question that must be answered prior to anything else taking place:
"is this worthy of certification?"
which , if you are a plastics-only collector equates exactly to "is this coin collectable?"
needless to say , if it fails to slab, whether due to issues w/ the coin, or error on the part of the plastic co., the plastic co. tells you whether or not you may collect the coin.
again, this is for the plastics-only crowd.
<< <i>unless you are asking them >>
... which i beleve you are you doing for each & every coin you send in.
<< <i>How can they tell you what you are allowed to like when you obviously do not respect their opinion and are not inclined to ask them? >>
again, i am trying to speak from the perspective (misguided, imo) of a plastics-only minded colletor.
please see my prev. post for more explanation.
K S
<< <i>that many or most believe to be artificially toned, when it comes time for that person (or his/her heir) to sell, the price they will receive will most likely be extremely disappointing, to say the least. >>
Mark: I do not agree for the simple reason is that you do NOT know how much the collector (who bought a coin he LIKED) paid for it in the first place. How do you know he didn't get it cheap?
Bottom line here is that I agree with Karl. The grading game (yes, it's a game) is made all the more complex by adding in the "AT" card. All this will do is help the services "justify" the idiotic prices they charge for their submissions. Collectors should buy what they like and not be dictated to by the grading services.
<< <i>I think you expend a little too much energy worring about what they do. >>
Clank: I disagree. I think the collecting community spends far too much energy in worrying about what PCGS thinks rather than concentrating on their own collections. Don't believe me? Just read the threads on this message board to get a real good idea of what the collecting community thinks...
jom
<< <i>Don't believe me? Just read the threads on this message board to get a real good idea of what the collecting community thinks... >>
Jom--
What a novel idea. I never thought of actually reading the threads in the six months I've been here.
As to the points you make I say fair enough.
Clankeye
<< <i>the collecting community spends far too much energy in worrying about what PCGS thinks rather than concentrating on their own collections. >>
SLAM DUNK! could never say it better myself.
K S
<< <i>I never thought of actually reading the threads in the six months I've been here >>
OK, I admit, it can be a bit taxing at times but you should try it...even if the headaches persist. lol
jom
Coinguy1 and Clankeye officially challenge you guys to a wrestling match. He doesn't know it yet, though. I volunteer him. He'll do it.
If we win, you guys have to submit every coin you have to ACG... if we lose, well... we're not going to lose.
Clankeye
Kscope
From your apparently-purely collector's point of view, I will agree with you. I do disagree with your idea that you shouldn't care what the "waitress at steak-&-Shake thinks of the coin" though.
Most coin buyers, however, regardless of the sizes of their budgets / wallets, consider the financial consequences of their purchases and it is to those that I speak. Even you acknowledge "it is when the business aspects enter into consideration that the issues arise. unfortunately (imo), most folks look at it that way, afraid to take even the teeniest chance of paying 20% over retail for a coin because, omigosh, it might not get in the plastic!"
jom,
You are correct - I do not know what most people pay for their coins. But, if they are buying toned examples that they like but which are not "market acceptable" due to actual or perceived artificial color, I submit to you - there is a good chance they are getting ripped off. I have seen it happen far too often. Sure, some of these coins are bought "cheap" as you put it by many / most are not. Again, my comments are directed at coin buyers who do care about the resale value of their purchases.
K.S. and jom - regarding Clankeye's wrestling match challenge about which he said :
"Coinguy1 and Clankeye officially challenge you guys to a wrestling match. He doesn't know it yet, though. I volunteer him. He'll do it."
I have never revealed the contents of any P.M.'s that I have sent anyone before, until now, at least, where I do hereby make an exception. This is what I wrote to Carl :
"Carl, I just got back home so I don't know what I missed (that led to you wrestling match challenge).
However, I presume you determined ahead of time how big and strong and fast they are? If not, please consider my contribution to be limited to that of coaching you and cheering you on from the sidelines."
Hulk jom
<< <i>Carl, I just got back home so I don't know what I missed (that led to you wrestling match challenge). However, I presume you determined ahead of time how big and strong and fast they are? If not, please consider my contribution to be limited to that of coaching you and cheering you on from the sidelines >>
ahem, i, uh, well, how's about instead of a wrestling match, i mean, well heck, i play a mean game of checkers. yeah, checkers! & we'll use coins instead of checkers, silver coins w/ wild-n-crazy toning for black, copper w/ mint-red for red. winner takes it all!
jom???
K S
Great topic and well presented.
About 7 years ago I was fortunate to be able to attenend an ANA AT seminar, presented by Bob Campbell. He focused primarily on silver coins, dollars, halves, and quarters. You touched on "toning pattern". I seem to remember Bob stating colors appeared in the following order; Yellow, Magenta, Cyan. I don't know if this color pattern is set in stone, or if this patten happens with the most frequency. Also, about everything you stated in you post was information he passed on.
In the seminar he presented slides and also had raw and "slabbed" coins from the then 3 major grading services. If you are to take for gospel what he was saying, a HUGH number of coins in slabs at that time, and probably today, where/are AT. He also stated (at that time) the grading services didn't have the expertise to effectively grade toned coins.
What's happened between then and now with the grading services, I don't know.
At the time he was in the process of authoring a book on AT. I never followed up on it. After reading your post and most of the replies, I think I'm going to see if I can get a copy. If it's available.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As always an excellent job (you should be working for the ANA
Dam
I've got the ANA video by Mr. Campbell "How to Tell Artificial Toning on Coins." He makes an excellent presentation...almost a good as Frank's
KK
"what i'm trying to say is that many of the coins i buy, i plan to KEEP. so it doesn't matter what i paid for it"
You selfish, selfish man...your descendents will curse you for this
"& i don't care what pcgs, ngc, david hall ... think about the coin."
Let me ask you a question. You're in the local coin shop with a collector friend. Your friend has been collecting for 30 years and real knows coins and the market. You spot a coin you consider has beautiful toning that's got a price with a 10x premium. You're just about to ask the store owner if you can take a closer look at the coin when your friend stops and whispers in your ear "Don't pay that price the coin has been doctor. We can find a coin just as nice with natural toning at the same price and if you ever need to sell it you can recoup you money."
Are you going to ignor your friends advice?
Now I can't call PCGS, NGC or David Hall my personal friends but I do value their advice. The choices aren't a beautiful AT coin versus an market acceptable ugly toning coin. You can have both beauty and market acceptability (based on a high level of confidence regarding originality). To ignor informed opinion and advice from some of the best eyes in the industry for the sake of "I don't need PCGS or NGC to tell me what I like" doesn't seem like a very logical or sound way to make this type of buying decision. Buying what you like and buying with future marketability in mind doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.
<< <i>colors appeared in the following order; Yellow, Magenta, Cyan >>
that is a flimsy rule of thumb, depends entirely on the environment, & a good doctor can duplicate that order easily. please do not fall for relying on that 100%
<< <i>If you are to take for gospel what he was saying, a HUGH number of coins in slabs at that time, and probably today, where/are AT >>
you beter believe it. although i will continue to say that all wild-n-crazy colors are the result of a-t, bottom line is that MANY coins in plastic were a-t'd within a time-frame of a day or less. which leads to my next point....
<< <i>Now I can't call PCGS, NGC or David Hall my personal friends but I do value their advice. The choices aren't a beautiful AT coin versus an market acceptable ugly toning coin. You can have both beauty and market acceptability (based on a high level of confidence regarding originality). To ignor informed opinion and advice from some of the best eyes in the industry for the sake of "I don't need PCGS or NGC to tell me what I like" doesn't seem like a very logical or sound way to make this type of buying decision. Buying what you like and buying with future marketability in mind doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. >>
note that by following this philosophy, you are freely allowing pcgs & ngc to TELL YOU what is marketable. why does YOUR opinion as to what is marketable count for nothing? who are you collecting for, pcgs?
the dilemma is, & will continue to be, denial that ALL wild-n-crazy colors ARE the result of a-t. if you admit that this is true, then it becomes possible for you to take responsibility for determining what is acceptable - TO YOU.
sorry to keep harping on this , but it saddens me to see folks continue to throw money at co's, for the privilege of having said co's dictate what may & may not be collected.
K S
"note that by following this philosophy, you are freely allowing pcgs & ngc to TELL YOU what is marketable"
Wrong. They are giving me their informed opinion just like your collector friend with 30 years of experience and expertise. I'm still free to except or reject that opinion. Even if I agree with their opinion that the coin is doctored I can still buy the coin if I find it attractive. But I make that purchase with the understanding of the issues related to market acceptability.
"the dilemma is, & will continue to be, denial that ALL wild-n-crazy colors ARE the result of a-t."
Wrong again but we can agree to disagree on this point. We've spend a lot of time discussing what constitutes an AT coin and I grant you that there is some difference of interpretation. That gray area doesn't change the fact that in the vast majority of cases (as illustrated by FC57's presentation) the intentional doctoring of a coin will not produce the same results as a coin that has toned naturally. It is difficult to accelerate and duplicate the look of the natural toning process that occurrs on coins that have obtained their color through storage over long periods of time in the older mint sets, Dansco albums or some of the typical storage environments that existed before the advent of climate control that we have today.
I think you mentioned earlier that copper turns brown and silver turns gray but you neglected to mention that the coins we're discussing aren't pure copper or pure silver. In spite of your assertion when these alloys are exposed to chemicals in their storage environment (especially in the day when paper and cardboard products were manufactured containing relatively high levels of sulfur) it will produce the colors and patterns observed on the beautifully natural toned coins in Frank's presentation.
I understand some of your resentment regarding the wholesale acceptance of the opinion of the grading services. They aren't perfect and they do make mistakes. That said the top services employ some of the best eyes in the industry and their opinion does and should care some weight in the marketplace (notice I said some weight).
<< <i>"note that by following this philosophy, you are freely allowing pcgs & ngc to TELL YOU what is marketable"
Wrong. They are giving me their informed opinion just like your collector friend with 30 years of experience and expertise. I'm still free to except or reject that opinion. Even if I agree with their opinion that the coin is doctored I can still buy the coin if I find it attractive. But I make that purchase with the understanding of the issues related to market acceptability. >>
of course, that's right. unfortunately, so many dealers behave as if pcgs's grade is NOT an "opinion", but a FACT. they behave as if anything rejected by pcgs MUST be "defective", & therefore not worthy of consideration. needless to say, i overemphasized my statement to make a point.
<< <i>"the dilemma is, & will continue to be, denial that ALL wild-n-crazy colors ARE the result of a-t."
Wrong again but we can agree to disagree on this point. We've spend a lot of time discussing what constitutes an AT coin and I grant you that there is some difference of interpretation. That gray area doesn't change the fact that in the vast majority of cases (as illustrated by FC57's presentation) the intentional doctoring of a coin will not produce the same results as a coin that has toned naturally. It is difficult to accelerate and duplicate the look of the natural toning process that occurrs on coins that have obtained their color through storage over long periods of time in the older mint sets, Dansco albums or some of the typical storage environments that existed before the advent of climate control that we have today.
I think you mentioned earlier that copper turns brown and silver turns gray but you neglected to mention that the coins we're discussing aren't pure copper or pure silver. In spite of your assertion when these alloys are exposed to chemicals in their storage environment (especially in the day when paper and cardboard products were manufactured containing relatively high levels of sulfur) it will produce the colors and patterns observed on the beautifully natural toned coins in Frank's presentation. >>
this is where we part ways, i say that coins stored in paper / cardboard albums are stored in artificial environments, hence the toning they acquire is aritificial. i also say that i DO appreciate such toning, but please don't believe that such can't be simulated, or accelerated in those very same environments.
<< <i>I understand some of your resentment regarding the wholesale acceptance of the opinion of the grading services. They aren't perfect and they do make mistakes. That said the top services employ some of the best eyes in the industry and their opinion does and should care some weight in the marketplace (notice I said some weight). >>
being "perfect" isn't really the point, my problem is with the propaganda & such that implies such perfection. how often do you see a pcgs ad that leads off w/ a statement to the effect of "grades are subjective & liable to change over time. the reality is that we cannot guarantee 100% that we will on 2 different days grade any particular coin differently"?
sorry i can't stick around & be more insightful, but i gotta run. FUN is caling, & i have to finish up at work before i can jet out of here. thanks for your points!
K S
We'll have to agree to disagree regarding paper envelopes and cardboard albums constitute an artificial environment. Coins that have been stored this way don't necessarily come out of them with beautiful, concentric, irridescent toning. It's like Forest Gump's box of chocolate..."you never know what you're going to get." The doctor works to perfect just the right environment to produce what he believes is market acceptable toning.
"being "perfect" isn't really the point, my problem is with the propaganda & such that implies such perfection"
I think the grading services would be the first to admit they're not perfect and the members of this board would be the first to take them to task if they did. Having said that and even in spite of some of the flaming they get on the board the top services are very good and I would guess that I agree with their opinion probably 80% of the time. That leaves some latitude for error (or rather a difference of opinion) on my part and their's. This is the main reason I caution everyone about paying huge premiums for one point differences in grade. In spite of all the information available to collectors that explains the shortcomings of the buying based sole on the opinion of the grading services some people (of course I'm talking about people that don't frequent this board
Anyway, have fun at FUN. I'm stuck here in the deep freeze in NY
Let me say that again
A toned Morgan that has been in a Dansco, Wyatt Raymond, or any other kind of holder IS NOT an original toned coin.
The only original toned Morgan comes from a mint sack.