An example of just how easy it is to hide hairlines in a coin through photography.

Russ

We see a lot of posts around here oohing and aahing about stunningly beautiful coins posted by some of the sellers on eBay. Fact is, some of these guys are VERY skilled at photography and graphics editing, and the pictures are as phony as a three dollar bill.

Here's a clue; Proof coins do not look like they have pure bright white perfect devices and jet-black fields with absolutely no interruptions anywhere on the coin. There are some PR70DCAMs that come close, but even on these the devices are not "pure white" and the fields are not "black".

More importantly, though, is how easy it is to hide real problems such as dip residue, hazing or hairlines. The nature of proof coinage is such that, because of the reflectivity of the mirrors, it is very easy to make flaws vanish - even with no editing.

Take a look at this first scan:



Looks pretty good. Strong, clean deep and a nice contrast. If I didn't know better, this would be one I'd be jumping all over.

Take a look at the second scan:



That is exactly the same coin, with the same lighting, just shot at a different angle. Still looks pretty good though. Not seeing any real problems. Seems clean and pretty.

Okay, here's reality:



Again, exactly the same coin only this time using lighting and angle that shows the flaws. And, trust me when I tell you I didn't even come close to capturing all the hairlining on that thing.

I did no graphics editing on these coins, all just angle and lighting. Now, you have to ask yourself if somebody like me who doesn't know dick about editing a scan and has been doing this for as short a period as I have can easily hide the flaws, what can an expert do?

This message brought to you by the proof Kennedy public service department.

Russ, NCNE

GP

hory chit! I'll take the first one please

DHeath

Good pics Russ. I've actually purchased coin #3 before based on coin #1.

Russ

Yep, Don, and I've been secretly thanking you for that ever since!

Russ, NCNE

MrLee

And there lies the problem, for many, of buying on line. I would have never guessed those were all the same coin. Thanks Russ. Excellent job.

coindaughter

Amazing! Good job.

CLASSICS

russ, this is one of the best threads yet. it just goes to show what can be done with a little know how. kind of reminds me of the thread on the so called toned morgan dollar that was on a day or so ago.

prooflike

Totally amazing, they look like three different coins!

ursabear

Russ,

Well said, well done! I sincerely appreciate the time you took to make this post and its pictures.

(I still like number 1 and 2 better )

Russ

Well, I can't take all the credit. Kranky gave me the idea for this post a while back. Just didn't have a suitable example on hand at the time.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut

I can see how the first two are alike with the nature of DCAM and how things are reflected... but the THIRD I would nuke a seller for that!

DesertLizard

Wow!

Shall we call you Lance Burton? Or Harry Houdini?

rikker

Very helpfull post Russ thanks. Great Pics

coinkat

Great work. For those of us who are technically challenged, you have illustrated what I have suspected in connection with grading scanned online photographs of coins. It is difficult to do with any degree of accuracy and the grade of the scanned online photographed coin may only be as good as the photgraph itself. I am not slamming online bidding/selling/trading of coins, however, alot can be learned the old fahioned way by attending coin shows or visiting your local coin dealer. It pays to attend the shows in the long run...

Casey

Great post. I will be more cautious in reviewing return policies on-line as a result.

bigt

ttt

66Tbird

I've looked it these sets of pics on two different monitors. The CM721F with a .20x.13 dot pitch,@1400x1050, I can see the some of the errors(scratches). On my welfare system cheapo@1024x768,,, where is no way. It's a good lesson for what to watch for while doing the online hunt. I was first burned in the Ike series, now I know more about the typical hide the problem, problem areas, and I use Powerstrip to adjust the color settings for different situations on the fly. XP has a neat on screen magnifier that is useful also. Good job Russ, keep them coming.

JeffinMich

Wow, all the newbies need to see this thread. TTT.

FatMan

Great Post-- Your Photos speak for themselves

KAJ1

Holy sh#@ is right !!!!!!!!!!!!


Kevin

Lakesammman

Beautiful example - it's very hard to photo a coin faithfully. As someone else said, the return policy had better be good!

RGL

Remind me Russ, by the way, never to again purchase a coin from you without revealing whether your photo is A, B or C!

leothelyon

The sad truth is when this thread drifts down into the depths of our archive of forgotten threads and when the new member or collector misses this very informative thread. This is why we need a readily
accessible Must Read Archive of Informative Threads.

Leo

jom

Good Job!

I had a thread some time ago where I did some pics with a Buffalo nickel. One was a shot with incandecent and the other with natual (sun) light. The sun light was better for showing the color but washed out the hairline. The incandecent showed the hairline (actually made it look worse than it was).

Text

jom

MrKelso

Thanks very much for a great bit of information.

eminem

I am flabergasted!!! I find myself in the lurch!! Russ as a member of this board i need to offer you 3 american dollars to take that kennedy off your hands....it does not belong in your collection....pm me and i'll relieve your misery!!!

kranky

Russ, that's a fantastic job of proving the point! If someone bought that coin based on picture #1, they would swear they were sent the wrong coin. Nice photo work, and very educational.

Morganluver

That's why a return privilege is so important, but I might also add that not all sellers "intentionally" try to hide problems with their pics. Is the glass half empty or half full?

1jester

Russ, thanks for the informative thread. Caveat Emptor!

"The sad truth is when this thread drifts down into the depths of our archive of forgotten threads and when the new member or collector misses this very informative thread. This is why we need a readily
accessible Must Read Archive of Informative Threads." --Leo

Good idea, Leo.

And welcome to the Boards, Casey.

CharlieB

I have to commend you as well. Pics can be deceiving.
I simply don't get my hopes up when I see a beauty on eBay.
Whenever I have bought on eBay I get the package, open it
and take a deep breath and know in seconds if the scan was
accurate. Your thread was a good one. Thanks.

PhillyJoe

Russ, what are you saying? I just sniped a three dollar bill on ebay. Good job on the pics. This is why we tolerate you abnormal attraction to JFK proofs.

Joe

Zerbe

Can we label that 'Photographic Coin Doctoring'?? That is one reason I rely on the dealer giving me his detailed description of a coin. I have noticed a few dealers, in the past, have described all the 'plusses' of a coin, and fail to mention any negatives. Then there are dealers who describe a coin as it really is, like it is being skillfully and honestly graded over the phone. Thanks for the excellent photo example. Zerbe

MacCoin

thanx Russ I would have neve guessed it was the same coin . you are a man of great wisdom

coinguy1

Great thread, Russ. You have no doubt, helped a lot of people with your examples and lessons.

I wonder if Mrs. Coinboard is worried she might soon be out of a job?

Russ

<< <i>The incandecent showed the hairline >>



Jom,

That's what I used to shoot the third shot. Which, while I'm thinking about it, brings up another point for those new to grading proof coins. Never use GE Reveal bulbs at your grading table. They're great for capturing color and contrast correctly when doing pics, but terrible for seeing the hairlines in a coin. A 100 watt incandescent is the only way to go for finding those nasty little buggers.

Russ, NCNE

Pushkin

jom

Russ: Yep, except I would add that a halogen light is even better than the incandecent, especially if you are buying. If you are looking at proofs though the halogen light will KILL you after about 10 minutes. The reveal blub is great for showing toning. I never did try the one I bought to compare with the natural sun light I used on that 36-D. I'll get around to it soon. What did you think of my toned Kennedy? heh heh heh

jom

keets

........food for thought that should be read over-and-over by anyone who doesn't realize that online purchasing is sight-unseen purchasing. the unspoken caution should be to never-ever make a buy online without a return policy.

while most reputable sellers will attempt to take photos that show their coin to it's best advantage, it's important to realize as Russ pointed out that most proofs aren't caked-white with jet-black unflawed fields and all but the best modern commem circs have contact marks or flaws of one type or another. why some sellers try to misrepresent those things isn't much of a mystery. and why i avoid those sellers isn't a mystery either.

al h.

Clankeye

Russ--
I will echo what other people have said here: excellent thread. What you do with your humble Ricoh is an inspiration to all.

(note to those with dirty-dirty minds: no. He doesn't call that "Ricoh")

Clankeye

Russ

Since there's currently a discussion involving a proof that was graded lower than the owner expected, and apparently that grade was a result of hairlining, I figured I'd bump this up.

Russ, NCNE

FinallyHere

Educational thread Russ and yet another example of why it is unrealistic to try to grade based on images. Thanks for sharing.

Mike Printz
Web Site

coinguy1

No argument from me about the impossibility of being able to grade accurately from images. I've mentioned that so many times, that people have made fun of me for it.

stman

<< <i>No argument from me about the impossibility of being able to grade accurately from images >>



You know that's gonna make the big Dog97 come out barking don't you?

joeyuk

That is amazing. Can you help me set up the lights in my house so all my coins look like 1 and 2?

billiardmaster

Russ,
Bravo......thanks for the education. Again proving that it is near impossible to grade a coin from a picture.
Rusty

DCAMFranklin

You mean you can't "grade by scan/pic"? I made such observations when I first joined here. This thread's originator insisted he had that ability. I guess when you've enjoyed this hobby for more than just a few months, you begin to learn the need to hold the coin in your hand, get up close and personal in order to provide an accurate assessment of the coin.

Russ

<< <i>This thread's originator insisted he had that ability. >>



Really, DCAMFranklin? That would be news to me. BTW, that smily you put at the end of all of your posts makes you look pretty stupid - not that we needed a reminder.

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin

Sorry Rusty. You did it and you know it. If the smily bothers you and LuCille, then that is just fine with me.

Mark

Russ:

If there is ever a "classic thread" board, this thread should be one of the first to be placed there. I will remember forever your three pictures that lead off the thread. They demonstrate so well why buying from ebay is a risky business. I buy some coins from ebay, but for more expensive coins I turn to dealers, such as Larry Whitlow among others, who take consistent, honest pictures that I have learned to somewhat "read" and who have people at the other end of the phone who will give me an honest opinion.

Back to this thread: I really do wish there was some sort of "classic thread board" or "beginners thread board." If there was, this thread DEFINITELY belongs there to help educate everyone who comes to these boards.

Mark

1jester

Russ, it's a great idea to revive this thread. You've been a true asset to this board with all your informative posts. Thanks, and keep up the good work.



PS: I hope you don't mind my smilies!

ksteelheader

Very good thread Russ. Thanks for sharing...Ken