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PKOK Hoard Coins AT or not????

Are the PKOK haord coins artificially toned or not. Like a few opinions. I have never had a PKOK hoard coin slabbed by PCGS (They have sent 100% of them back in a bodybag - maybe 0 for 25). This includes several pieces that I cracked out of PCGS holders.

Once I complain, and send in 5-10 slabbed coins that all have the exact same look, I get a 100% success rate of having them slabbed.

So my question is, are they AT or not???
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Ike Specialist

Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

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Comments



  • << <i>I have never had a PKOK hoard coin slabbed by PCGS (They have sent 100% of them back in a bodybag - maybe 0 for 25). This includes several pieces that I cracked out of PCGS holders. >>



    How could you never had one slabbed by PCGS, yet you said that the number of bodybags includes a few you cracked out of PCGS holders?

    Cameron Kiefer
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    Bought them already slabbed, resubmitted for a higher grade, and they came back bodybagged.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • Does anyone know the history behind the PeaCo*k Hoard? I've seen them, never could afford them but always wondered myself if they were AT or not. Its a little tough to believe Ikes were able to develop that kinda of color.

    Segoja - how many of the hoard have you handled and what were they?

    Thanks
    Michael

    MW Fattorosi Collection
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    I've heard numerous stories about these PKOK's. Not sure that anyone can verify what is true or not.

    The fact is that they are gorgeously toned coins. People pay big bucks for them.

    Reality is that all toning is artificial. Some jsut happened because someone put them in a cloth bag or a sulfphur laden piece of paper. The real key is time. If you do it quick it's AT. If you take your time it's real. If people pay big bucks, it must be real. I've sold several of these PKOK's for big $$$ to people who know toning (these were all slabbed after the second trip to PCGS).

    As for the question of what have I handled??? Many proofs (all silver), many silver MS (all dates), and many of the clads (71-D, 72-P, 73-P, 74-P, 74-D, 76-D Type I, 76-D Type II, 77-D).

    I've also seen several members use PKOK's as thier logo (Wondercoin & Braddick).

    If they were AT'd, and it were me, I'd sure make some more. It's a better return than alchemy ever could have dreamt of.

    I think when it's all said and done, we will never know the truth about the PKOK's. I think we jsut need to educate the PCGS graders as to what a PKOK is and be able to recognize them every time they come through.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I own seven of these PCGS Peacock Ikes and am proud of each of them.
    If, one day, I learn the TRUTH about these coins, so be it. In the meantime, stories of these originating from a hoard of Ikes kept in the basement of a collector in Salt Lake City (by the water heater, of course) or a bank promotion in the late seventies that had these Ikes stored in plastic snap-lock holders with a cardboard- bank logo- insert, or an AT method used that involves shoe boxes, duct tape, two types of gases and compressed air (!) do nothing to stay away my appreciation of them.

    peacockcoins

  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    Pat,

    You put it as eloquently as the coins are toned!!!

    They look great!!!

    Anyone who hasn't seen one is missing something. Your logo just doesn't do the real thing justice.

    If you don't like them, then you don;t like toning.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • James et all:

    I posted on this before but I think the question is important for modern collectors. I modestly believe I have done a massive amount of research on this issue, and the answer is still shrouded in mystery. Let me tell what I know, and anyone please add if you know more.

    Bob Halsted is one of the great PKOK collectors. He wrote an article on the subject in the Eisenhower Dollar Guide Book. One of his hypotheses is that a bank in Salt Lake City had a promotion in the 1970s wherin they gave an IKE dollar housed in a cardboard holder in a plastic case to new depositors. The IKEs toned from the cardboard, thus the PKOKs. This theory is based on the fact that he bought a raw PKOK in a holder from the bank.

    I traced down the bank who did the promotion through several ownership changes. It is now a SLC branch of Washington Mutual. Problem is, the head of marketing at the bank says they never put IKEs in the holders. They only used Morgans. And, as far as I know we don't have any PKOK toned Morgans!! He certainly was sure they did not use any proof IKEs, and we do have proof IKE PKOKs. He named an employeee who was in charge of the program. Call him Mr. XXX. Mr. XXX is now retired. I tried to talk to Mr. XXX, but the marketing head said he would not agree to talk to me. The marketing head says they do not have any more of the coins in the bank vault.

    The next thread was distribution. Bob Halsted got most of his PKOKs through IKE dealer Jim Barlow. Barlow claims to have handled many many PKOKs. Barlow says he got them from a certain dealer in Salt Lake City. Halsted also says he got some direct from the same Salt Lake City dealer. PKOKs also appeared in California coins shows and auctions. So, I contacted the Salt Lake City dealer. The dealer claims to have handled all or most of the known PKOKs. He claims to have sold most of them to Barlow, or Halsted or in various California shows. So far the story holds.

    I asked the dealer where he got the PKOKs and if he has any more to sell. He said he got them all from one collector who periodically brings a batch in to sell. He does not identify the name of the collector. Call him Mr. YYY. He had none to sell the last time I asked.

    Those are the facts as I know them. Now my theory. Mr XXX and Mr YYY are the same person. When the bank discontinued their Morgan promotion in the 1970s, they probably disposed of the remaining unused holders. Mr. XXX probably got to keep them. He then put IKEs and maybe some other coins in the holders. Low and behold, over the years, they developed the distinctive toning, which he has been selling as he needs the money. A few he sold in the bank holders, most he just sold raw. To me the theory makes sense, Mr XXX was probably a knowledgeable collector to get the bank assignment to run the program in the first place. As a collector he probably was happy to buy or take the extra holders. He probably had a decent eye for nice IKEs. He also would have later recognized the value of the toned pieces, though frankly the value of the original raw sales were far below current prices. So what happened to the Morgans? My view is that it is the copper/nickel in the IKEs which is responsible for the PKOK toning. All IKEs whether silver ms, silver proof, c/n proof, or c/n ms have significant amounts of C/N. Morgans don't and thus no PKOK toned Morgan examples. To me it makes sense. Clearly, the most vibrant PKOKs are the all C/N pieces.

    An alternate theory is that Mr YYY and Mr XXX are different people. In this alternative Mr YYY bought the IKEs and toned them. AT, or in cardboard holders, who knows, or really cares. In this theory, the few PKOKs that have appeared in bank holders might be explaned by Mr. YYY having a few. Maybe from opening an account. Or, maybe he got ahold of a bunch of the holders and placed the IKEs in them much like Mr. XXX might have. Personally, I think the bank of other cardboard holders created the PKOK toning though interacting with the C/N.

    That's what I know and guess. Whatever you think, there can be do doubt that the PKOK IKEs are magnificant, beautiful pieces and in my view a national treasure. I wish there were a way to put a display together, as I think that would highlight the existense of the numismatic ultra-rarities.

    Greg

  • << The next thread was distribution. Bob Halsted got most of his PKOKs through IKE dealer Jim Barlow. Barlow claims to have handled many many PKOKs. Barlow says he got them from a certain dealer in Salt Lake City. Halsted also says he got some direct from the same Salt Lake City dealer. PKOKs also appeared in California coins shows and auctions. So, I contacted the Salt Lake City dealer. The dealer claims to have handled all or most of the known PKOKs. He claims to have sold most of them to Barlow, or Halsted or in various California shows. So far the story holds.

    I asked the dealer where he got the PKOKs and if he has any more to sell. He said he got them all from one collector who periodically brings a batch in to sell. He does not identify the name of the collector. Call him Mr. YYY. He had none to sell the last time I asked. >>

    Can you identify the dealer for us, or PM it to me? I live in SLC, and may know him...I know a few of the dealers here really well. Maybe I can extract more information out of him/her.
  • Greg,

    Do you have any of the inserts?
    Have you tried putting Ikes in them and seeing if they tone?

    -KHayse
  • MastaHanky:

    I believe the dealer is KolorCoins or something along those lines. If that is not enough info, let me know and I will go back into my notes.

    Keith, I don't have any of the bank inserts. When I contacted the bank, I asked if they had any left, and they don't. They gave me the name of the company they thought they bought them from. When I called that company (sorry, I forgot the name), they did not remember or have any record of where they got them. So, unfortuantely, there is little to go on there. My understanding is that after many years the sulpher in cardboard becomes stable and is less likely to coin. For example, I'm not sure that an old Waite Raymond album would coin silver coins now.

    Greg
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Greg: Seriously, not to downplay the pretty Ikes, but why should they be deemed "national treasures" when all it takes is a bunch of common grade MS65 and MS66 Ikes and THE RIGHT CARDBOARD with just the right amounf of sulphur in the paper? Interestingly, the Ikes toned rather quickly (in the sceme of things). Coins dated in the late 1970's were already toned "just right" by the 1980's - right? Armed with the proper "cardboard", why couldn't a knowledgeable chemist or anyone else interested in duplicating the result start now and have PKOK's PART 2 by 2010, making them "national embarrassments"? image

    Again, no attack on Ikes intended - I won at auction the most expensive Ike ever sold, if I am not mistaken image

    Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mitch- You brought up an excellent point when, on another thread, you stated you were in the market for two Modern high grade Full Step Jeffersons and were willing to pay $500.00 a pop. You wrote and made the offer contrary to the theme of the thread which had taken a negative spin on Moderns vs a "Classic 1942 proof66 Jefferson.

    I'd like to now extend an offer to you- based on your statements made on this thread: MS65 common Ikes go for what? Maybe $35.00 to $50.00 each? I'll pay you 5X's that retail rate for each "Peacock" Ike you "make" for me, up to two.

    -You have my address. Just ship when you're all done. There is no time limit, a stipulation you placed on your Jefferson offer, as I suspect prices will be rising for these toned Ikes in 2003.

    peacockcoins

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    baseball- only for clarification, and although my offer stands, I did firmly have my tongue in cheek as I posted the above offer. I'm just so used to reading Mitch's offers to buy top pop moderns whenever there is a slight flareup on the Moderns/Classics threads. . . image

    My post wasn't a mockery, just a reminder that one's opinion should be consistent. Well, at least as much so as PCGS's grading. . .

    peacockcoins

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Braddick: My experience with toning coins goes only as far as accidently leaving a Wash quarter in a pile of wetness with just a trace of Jeweluster that over a period of time resulted in a pretty purple color that I thought was really cool image And, I do have some experimental coins toning in old mint set wrappers, but they mostly look terrible after upwards of 5 years!!

    Sorry, Pat. No Chemistry experience here. I would love to create "coins to order" for you, but I just don't have the wherewithall to do it. However, your proposal is compelling - it demonstrates that even AT coins (i.e. the ones I would make for you if I could) have meaningful values in this market, which I agree with.

    And, again, I love high grade MS Ike Dollars as a series as you know. I am just not terribly impressed with the PKOK saga - I sure wish that bank employee would have agreed to speak with Greg image Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • With all due respect to those more senior and experienced then I, but it just doesn't sound quite right.

    With Typetones dogged research and investigation, there should be an answer. But still none.

    Without a doubt a cardboard insert can tone a clad coin. I've seen it happen and will now go purchase 2 Bicentennial sets a local dealer has and yes they are toned, just not as nicely as the Peaco*k Hoard. So there's no doubt that the toning is possible, but c'mon. Doesn't it seem a little much to swallow.

    As for sulfur toning morgans, I'm no chemist, but there's little doubt that it will. I've seen cardboard holders tone other silver coins quite nicely. Why no toned PCH morgans? And yes, W.Raymond albums will continue to tone silver coins even today. Again, I've seen 1 local dealer's morgan collection toning in that fashion stored in a WR album for about 5 years.

    So, based on science, one should be able to recreate an example of the PCH from those original cardboard holders. But, then again, no one has one, matter of fact no one even has a record of these cardboard inserts. Shouldn't there be 1 little old lady in SLC who got a morgan in that holder when she opened her XMas savings acct. that has sinced passed on and somehow her coin got on the market. Matter of fact, there should be hundreds or dozens sitting in several coins stores around SLC. Has anyone in SLC ever see this supposed cardboard bank promotion insert. I'm sure it has some sort of promotional slogan printed on it. But, again no, no one knows which insert was used, despite the fact that the bank probably bought 5,000 of them.

    Then, the bank, who probably had bags of circulated ikes sitting in their vaults, decides to purchase proof and mint sets and singles, break them apart and insert the coins into these holders -- ummm. Seems, again, a little strange. image Any fingerprints on any of the PCH coins, by chance? image Not only did they do that, they also chose really high grade coins to give away. And the give away lasted for, according to Segoja, 7 years. Or that bank was smart enough to order the entire gamet of proof and mint ike dollars to include in their giveaway.

    Interesting that when Typetone wants to discuss the promotion with the former head of marketing for the former PCH Bank, he can't even get to him. Then Typetone states that 1 SLC dealer told him all - again -all of the coins come from 1 person.

    (After additional thought I added the following)
    So we are left with 1 plausible explanation. 1 collector/marketing director takes home dozens-hundreds of these left over mystery holders. He then decides that he has several dozen-hundreds of proof and MS Ikes that need a home. So he looks around and sezs to himself, "I should put these ikes in these bank promotional holders to store them for the next 20 years - since plastic holders with cardboard cut-outs are the most efficent way to store a large volume of large heavy silver and C/N coins, as everyone knows." image He doesn't chose paper rolls, nor those plastic square tubes, or 2x2s, he likes his coins stored in large plastic holders with cardboard cut outs that say PCH Bank on it.

    And then they sit and sit and sit some more. Then he sezs, gee, these take up a lot of room in my collection. I'm going to put them down in the basement by that old leaky, damp water heater for safe keeping. image

    Then he checks on them a few-ten years later, and wa-la they're toned. Not hazy, but toned. image Again, I'll defer to those more experienced, but I have seen numerous proof ikes that have not been properly stored - most to all are hazy, but not this guy's coins. And then he thinks to himself (again this is probably in the 1980s when he checks his coins), well most people like blast white coins, but maybe in 10-20 years there will be an appreciation for nicely toned Ikes - so I'll just leave these coins be for awhile.

    Then in another 10 years he walks into a coin store in SLC and says I got these old toned ikes for sale. Sells a couple, then comes back and sells a couple more, never realizing that his coins are worth huge $$$$, then sells a couple more - all to the same dealer.

    Well if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well then you know - it must be a DUCK!

    Its a sad day, I really did want one of these coins someday. But I guess they'll be added to the list --

    Santa Claus
    The Easter Bunny
    The Tooth Fairy
    And now
    Peaco*K Hoard Toned Ike Dollars

    It appears that all require the suspension of disbelief.

    My theory - Mr. XXX = Mr. YYY = the SLC Dealer = beautifully AT Ikes image

    Michael

    MW Fattorosi Collection
  • Typetone,

    Your theory is about 95% correct. Some minor errors about the history of the bank holders, but most of the supposition is OK.

    TRUTH
  • << I believe the dealer is KolorCoins or something along those lines. If that is not enough info, let me know and I will go back into my notes. >>

    OK, I know the one. I visit there on occasion, but I'm not a regular. I'll pay him a visit sometime this week and see what he has to say.

    << Shouldn't there be 1 little old lady in SLC who got a morgan in that holder when she opened her XMas savings acct. that has sinced passed on and somehow her coin got on the market. Matter of fact, there should be hundreds or dozens sitting in several coins stores around SLC. Has anyone in SLC ever see this supposed cardboard bank promotion insert. I'm sure it has some sort of promotional slogan printed on it. But, again no, no one knows which insert was used, despite the fact that the bank probably bought 5,000 of them. >>

    You have my curiosity up on this. There are only about six or seven dealers in the valley here who have retail stores. I'll pay a few of them a visit and ask about them...surely they must have at least HEARD about them, even if they haven't actually purchased any of these so-called holders.

    Look for an update on Monday evening.



  • Masta

    If you can find one-several of these holders, pick them up and I'll pay you for them. I'd like to try a little toning experiment myself.

    Let us know what you find.

    Michael

    MW Fattorosi Collection
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Braddick: My experience with toning coins goes only as far as accidently leaving a Wash quarter in a pile of wetness with just a trace of Jeweluster that over a period of time resulted in a pretty purple color that I thought was really cool image And, I do have some experimental coins toning in old mint set wrappers, but they mostly look terrible after upwards of 5 years!! Sorry, Pat. No Chemistry experience here. I would love to create "coins to order" for you, but I just don't have the wherewithall to do it. However, your proposal is compelling - it demonstrates that even AT coins (i.e. the ones I would make for you if I could) have meaningful values in this market, which I agree with. And, again, I love high grade MS Ike Dollars as a series as you know. I am just not terribly impressed with the PKOK saga - I sure wish that bank employee would have agreed to speak with Greg image Wondercoin >>


    My proposal wasn't to demonstrate that AT coins are in demand, nor are your offers to buy high grade, low pop Moderns one to demonstrate how easy those coins are to locate and "Make" (via PCGS grading).

    peacockcoins

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "My proposal wasn't to demonstrate that AT coins are in demand, nor are your offers to buy high grade, low pop Moderns one to demonstrate how easy those coins are to locate and "Make" (via PCGS grading)."

    Pat: My offer to buy (for example) a 2002(d) nickel in PCGS-MS67FS is an offer anyone out there can actually "fill". Truly, all it takes is one lucky roll of 2002(d) nickels or a super dooper 2002 mint set - agreed? On the other hand, your offer to buy colorful Ikes from me MAY TAKE a vast knowledge of "coin doctoring" skills to fulfill - right? Indeed, isn't this what the entire thread is all about - the search to determine whether PKOK coins are "AT". Look at the title of this thread. image

    Let's also agree on another thing if we can. Do we not agree that on many occasions, it is the belief of knowledgeable Ike collectors out there (heck, I've spoken to several who have said just that) that PCGS has slabbed these coins at lower grades than most would expect, in part, because of the concern PCGS has that they may not be "real"?

    So, with all due respect, here is the key difference between my offer to buy a 2002(d) nickel in PCGS-MS67FS and your offer to buy colorful Ikes from me:

    1. Since most people out there do not believe that nickel is worth but a 1/10 or a 1/20 of my buy price, they can easily submit a coin they pluck from a roll, mint set, bag, etc. and try to prove me wrong.

    2. Your offer to me is essentially asking me to "prove a negative". You are asking me to slab some toned Ikes in order to prove "AT" (or common toning from sulphur paper) does not exist on the ones that exist today. Since I am not a "coin doctor", I can not prove your negative. But, that doesn't mean AT doesn't exist or the ability to reproduce these Ikes in quantities if someone with appropriate skills wanted to.

    By the way, Happy Thanksgiving Pat to you and the Ms. image

    Wondercoin


    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • I have actually seen and held one of those bank holders. All I can say for now is you will never see any other coin, Morgan, Peace etc, with that type of PKOK toning.image


    TRUTH
  • Truth

    Where & when did you get to see one of these holders? Who had it?

    Thanks
    Michael

    MW Fattorosi Collection
  • FrattLaw:

    The holders exist. People have them and have held them. The bank states that they distributed hundreds of them in SLC. The bank also states that they never put IKEs in them, just Morgans. As far I as know there are no PKOK toned Morgans. We have only one or two examples of IKEs found in the holders. So, there is not enough evidence to prove the bank holders created the PKOK toning, just a possibility. I think the evidence is sound that the IKE and other PKOKs came from Mr. YYY. All knowledgeable individuals agree that Kolor Coin is the retail source of these pieces. They state they came from Mr. YYY. The only question is how did YYY create them? Did YYY AT them?, did he get a bunch of bank holders and put IKEs in them? That mystery is still to be solved. BTW, I don't think it is absurd that YYY bought a bunch of IKEs in the 70s and put them in holders. In the 70s IKE mint products were common. Brown packs, blue packs etc. Many of us buy lots of mint products today. Maybe he liked the holders and decided to use them to store his IKEs, maybe he knew Carboard tones C/N and wanted to give it a try. Why not, IKEs were not too expensive then.

    I personally doubt they were AT. After all if someone can create the PKOK toning, and they have a significant price premium, and they can get slabbed, they not create more in more expensive series. Why not buy some MS65 Walkers and get started. In fact we are not seeing supply come on the market. I think it is more likely that a cardboard holder was used, something unique like Waite Raymond material, and that now the game is over. Most likely they are a unique hoard, formed at a period of time, and what we have now is what we will always have.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mitch- This is where I stand: That raw 2002 Jefferson isn't really a true MS67FS until PCGS holders it. Otherwise, you'de be buying these raw for close to your $500.00 offer price, slabbed. (I agree with you, by the way on wanting the "confirmation" of grade via PCGS before the outlay of cash.)

    In my opinion, and until someone can prove otherwise: If PCGS slabs a Peacock Ike then it is REAL (to me!). That is MY confirmation.

    Please don't go AT'ing these- I don't think you can and get them holdered too.
    Find me the REAL ones (or- the ones I believe are REAL, even if you don't!) and I'll pay the same crazy premiums you do on the coins you deal with.

    peacockcoins

  • Fratlaw,

    I have a second home in SLC and I know a few coin dealers in SLC. Typetone has done some major research and I can personally confirm that a vast majority of his information is correct. A few dealers have 'inside' information on the PKOK hoard and are sworn to secrecy. The coin holders were indeed issued for Morgan and Peace dollars as promotional items by the bank but no one will ever find those coins with PKOK toning. By the way, Jim Barlow gave the IKEs the designation PKOK and the term has stuck since the late 80's. The holders exist without the coins, and a few are circulating within the numismatic community. Many dealers are trying to duplicate PKOK toning with these holders. They will NOT suceed. I love this numismatic folklore, since a few people know the true story, many people know bits and pieces and many collectors are eager to put the puzzle together.image
    TRUTH
  • Truthteller:

    So do you think Mr XXX and Mr YYY are the same person? Do you think both exist? Do you think PKOK IKEs are natural or AT?

    Mitch:

    Forget Braddick. I will pay a higher premium for PKOK IKEs. No limit on number, but only one per date/mintmark combo. Here are my buy prices PCGS or NGC.

    MS65 C/N $500, MS66 C/N common $800, scarce C/N MS66 or any C/N MS67 please PM me
    Silver mint state MS65-MS67 $400 - $600. 71 in 67 or any MS68 PM me.
    Any silver proof PR67 or better $400 - $600. 69DCAM please PM me.
    Any C/N proof please PM me.

    Those are real bids. Subject to my agreement that the coin is a real PKOK. If we disagree, I will accept an opinion from Jim Barlow that the coin is a real PKOK.

    Go get them.

    BTW, the bids are not limited to coins supplied by Mitch. If anyone else has them to sell, let me know.

    Cheers

    Greg
  • Typetone,

    Mr. XXX and Mr. YYY are indeed the same person. However, it may seem paradoxical, but there is NO bank connection for the IKEs. As far as AT, only time will tell.

    TRUTH
  • khaysekhayse Posts: 1,336
    Truthteller,

    Do you plan to be in the detroit area anytime soon?
    I think with a few drinks of your choice we can uncover this mystery. image

    -KHayse
  • Truthteller:

    Do you believe Mr. XXX-YYY used the bank holders to tone the PKOKs? If not, why did at least one IKE PKOK appear in a bank holder. One answer is possible. Mr. XXX-YYY, a former bank employee simply had a few around and he put a few of the PKOKs in them. Any more insight?


    Baseball:

    The silver IKEs were of course silver clads which means they had a lot of C/N in them.


    Greg
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    Let me get in the bidding war on the PKOK's.

    As I've stated several times, I will be the higher buyer. I'll take multiples as long as the coins are MS65 or better for CN and MS66 or better for the silvers.

    Tougher date coins will bring very nice premiums.

    Try me out.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • Segoya:

    Thanks for out-bidding meimage. For what its worth, offers have not been flowing in to sell me any. All these guys who think they are AT, why aren't they selling them to me? Braddick says he knows the story, he has a lot of PKOKs, yet he is not rushing to PM me. My guess is the guys who "know" believe they are real, or don't care. Personally, I couldn't care less if they are AT. All toning is sulpher on metal anyway. How it gets there is really not that important. I would care if millions more could be produced. But, if they could, why aren't the manufacturers creating some Franklins, Washingtons, Walkers, or Morgans? Other than the IKEs I know of 1 1984 Washington Commem, one Canadian coin, and a few Kennedy pieces.

    Greg
  • Typetone,

    Ah ha! The question you pose might make me spill the beans. As stated before, the bank promotion was with Morgan and Peace dollars AND you will not find any Morgan or Peace dollars with PKOK toning. Thus it reasons, that the holder did not cause PKOK toning but many people will surmise that since ONE PERSON said he found an IKE with PKOK toning, this must be true. Quite a conundrum.

    So, let's examine some facts.

    1) No morgan or peace with PKOK toning
    2) Only IKES with PKOK toning
    3) Bank says no IKES in the promotion
    4) Only one person claims to have seen an IKE with holder
    5) Many IKES exist with PKOK toning(estimates of 200-1000) but more like 150 total
    6) Mr XXX and Mr YYY are the same
    7) Mr XXX and Mr YYY are NOT connected with the bank
    8) IKE dollars are NOT connected with the bank
    9) Coin and holder are easily separated
    10) people lie

    Boy, you guys are getting close to the TRUTH. I better shut up.image

    TRUTH
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "10) people lie"

    TRUTH: I was so close until I got to #10!! image Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • I love the firestorm this thread has created. While it seems that most of you do not care about the originality of the PCH, it is still a mystery that I think needs to be clarified and solved.

    Those who are bidding up a storm on these Ikes are doing so with the belief that they are real, that is, not AT. I would be interested to know if those standing purchase orders would remain if Mr XXX, Mr YYY or SLC Dealer came forward and confirmed they were AT?

    As for the truth and veracity of TypeTone's account, I have NO reason to question his facts. I have NO reason to question that existence of the bank holders. I have NO reason to question the fact that certain cardboard inserts can toned clad and silver coins alike. Matter of fact, I noted that in my first post.

    What I do question is the shroud of secrecy that surrounds these particular coins. As Baseball puts it - this isn't the Kennedy assignation. And if you believe Oswald acted alone, I'm sure your suspension of disbelief is quite strong, so maybe all these questions as to the PCH doesn't really bother you.

    To answer a few questions and raise additional ones -

    Truthteller -

    << <i>All I can say for now is you will never see any other coin, Morgan, Peace etc, with that type of PKOK toning. >>


    Why do you suppose this is? Those cardboard holders toned silver & clad ikes, why not silver morgan dollars, we all know morgans had the surface and preparation in which to allow toning.

    Typetone -

    << <i>Why do they not create more in more expensive series. Why not buy some MS65 Walkers and get started. In fact we are not seeing supply come on the market. >>


    Perhaps the story only holds together if the series is of dollar size, no holders in any other size denomination. Thus, it seems plausible.



    << <i>In my opinion, and until someone can prove otherwise: If PCGS slabs a PKOK Ike then it is REAL (to me!). That is MY confirmation. >>


    Pat, didn't this topic start by Segoya stating he has no 0% luck getting the PCH ikes slabbed? Does that not call into to question the originality of the toning?



    << <i>Many dealers are trying to duplicate PKOK toning with these holders. They will NOT suceed. >>


    How can this be, the true definition of science is replicability. If not, then the findings are not valid. Toning coins, either on purpose or accident is nothing but science. Therefore, if the toing came from nothing but the cardboard holders they should be able to recreate similar, maybe not exact, toning on a proof set or mint set ike.



    << <i>Do you believe Mr. XXX-YYY used the bank holders to tone the PKOKs? If not, why did at least one IKE PKOK appear in a bank holder. >>


    It lays the foundation for the theory/lore?

    A story really needs to be written on this updating the community on the recent info.

    And the saga continues.

    Michael

    MW Fattorosi Collection
  • khaysekhayse Posts: 1,336
    Truth,

    How do you reconcile these statements?
    >Greg's post> He named an employee who was in charge of the program. Call him Mr. XXX.

    >Yours> 7) Mr XXX and Mr YYY are NOT connected with the bank


    Here's my guess: Braddick, Truth and Mr XXX (he has three chromosomes) murdered
    someone. In hacking up the body some blood got on some stacks of Ikes they had
    lying around. The blood coupled with some other element or procedure eventually
    turned the coins startling shades of color. The trio decided to profit from their macabre
    adventure by selling the beautiful coins but first they swore a (blood) oath to never
    reveal their black secret.

    Am I close?
    Is the answer bigger than a breadbox?
    How many syllables?
    Arrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh!

    -KHayse
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Twelve+ years ago, at Long Beach, I spoke with the originator of these PKOK Ikes (Barlow's term, and I like it, for its simplicity). I bought four of them- two in PCGS and (surprisingly) two in PCI. I could have bought three others but didn't know, at the time, these would be scarce.
    I think I paid about $75.00 to $150.00 each, depending on the toning and whether it had CAM or no CAM (none were DCAM).

    Now, and this isn't breaking any bonds or disclosing that I have promised not too- the story I heard then was the bank in Salt Lake City story. Remember though, I was a buyer.
    Years later, I've learned- through this SAME vest pocket dealer (although I think he has a storefront in Salt Lake?) that story was a crock.
    I have since learned, being the investigative type I am, the full story and have also had it confirmed.

    With all that said: My seven Peackock ikes are not for sale and I'll tell you why:

    Sometimes in life you pay not for what something is, but what it was that got it there.
    Remember the story of the mechanic who had a guy drive a car into his garage, complaining of a tapping sound from his engine bay? The mechanic popped the hood, gazed around for a moment and then quickly tightened ONE bolt.

    The engine purred like a kitten. When asked what his fee was the car owner was surprised to hear, "That'll be $100.00". The guy claimed the mechanic only spent seconds working on his car and believed the $100.00 was an outragious price. All the mechanic had to say to justify his pricing was, "Well, it's only $1.00 to tighten the bolt, but it's $99.00 to know which one to tighten".

    Ikes are worth probably less than $10.00 a pop. Find one in GEM with magical, gifted rainbow toning and it is art, and worth much more. I don't ask the artist how he did it- whether that artist is God or Man. I simply enjoy the coin.

    peacockcoins

  • Frattlaw,

    I don't know how many times I can say this and be more obvious. The morgan and peace dollars were distributed in the bank holders but DID NOT have PKOK toning. The IKE dollars were NOT distributed by the bank and DO have PKOK toning. C'mon folks, the answer is right there!!!!!!!image

    Khayse,

    Ah shucks, now I have to kill Braddick to keep the secret.image To reconcile the statement, Mr XXX is not the bank employee associated with the promotion, but is responsible for attaining the bank holders. So there was a bit of confusion there. Mr XXX attained the bank holders with IKE coins. This link is the most IMPORTANT link to the story. You must be able to figure out who is Mr XXX, where did he come from, what are his motives, is it a he or she, what about the morgans and peace dollars, is the moon made of cheese? All important questions.


    For those who can conclude the theory correctly, I will PM you with a confirmation.

    TRUTH
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    -Don't forget to don your mask when you do so.

    peacockcoins

  • Mr. YYY was standing behind a fence on a grassy knoll holding the Morgan/Peace holder used by PCH Bank.

    As the SLC dealer's motorcade made a left hand turn down Deley Plaza (spelling?) when, from above and to the right, a different person, Mr XXX, throws a different holder, containing a Ike dollar @ the motorcade, striking the dealer in the head, on the right. Causing his head to jerk back and to the left.

    Mr Zapruder, (Truthteller) standing just below the Grassy Knoll and filming this incident realizes that the PCH holder, did not cause the toning and really it came from above the dealer from a completely different holder / manner.

    However, like the Kennedy assignation, he's keeping the secret until those involved in the cover-up are dead and gone image

    I think we got it, just one last question, what I am going to do with all of these toned Ikes now!image

    Michael

    MW Fattorosi Collection
  • Truthteller:

    A few questions and comments to clarify your responses, and some surmises.

    You seem to be making it clear that the origin of the PKOKs could not be the bank holders because if they were we would have some Morgan and Peace PKOKs. However only the IKEs contained C/N. Perhaps the holders reacted only with that metal. So, it seems that we can not rule out the bank holders on the facts alone. It would also explain why we don't have any other PKOKs. Only C/N coins work, and only the IKEs are dollar size. OK, maybe the creator bothered to paste a few down to Kennedy or 1984 Washington commem size, but thats it.

    On Mr. XXX. I identified him as the retired bank employee who ran the program. Your Mr XXX-YYY seems to be someone different, correct? I assume you are saying the retired bank guy is not involved? Or was the current bank marketing director identifying him inncorrectly as an employee when in fact he was a consultant on contract dealer guy?

    You don't allow us to see your bio, no eyeglasses on your post. Do you perhaps live in SLC, do you go by the name YYY.

    Is XXX-YYY dead?, and with him/her the secret? Thus no more PKOKs?

    Last surmise from your and Braddick's posts. Braddick states that 12 years ago he met the "originator" of the PKOKs. He says some years later that he talked to the "same" vest pocket dealer with a store front in SLC. Now I know the Kolor Kraft Coins guys went to Long Beach to peddle the PKOKs. They claimed they got them from the mysterous Mr YYY. Perhaps the truth is that Kolor Kraft created the PKOKs using some process that works on C/N coins. After all Braddick calls someone fitting their description the "originators". It is possible they also provided holders to the bank. Why not, why wouldn't a bank go to a local coin dealer for dollar holders. So Kolor Kraft might have some extra holders to put some of their PKOKs in. Also, it accounts for the high quality of the IKEs themselves. Wouldn't a coin dealer have some ability to pick out better pieces. Much more likely than a bank picking out good ones. Finally, doesn't the name Kolor "Kraft" Coins tell us something. Finally, finally, it accounts for why we don't have thousands if PKOK IKEs. A dealer producing them has every incentive to only let them trickle out an keep the mystique up. I agree there are clearly not 200-1000 of these.

    OK, Truthteller there's my best guess. Not suggesting anyone ATed them, or that I even care how they toned. Do I get a PM now?

    Greg
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    Greg

    Not trying to outbid you, just prove a point, that even when very solid bids are placed by reputable folks, few if any turn up.

    I've only bought 6 PKOK's in the last year, all from the same unnamed source (not the originator or the mystery guy, just a dealer who I want to keep to myself). I've had the opportunity to buy a few others when Greg broke his set up, but thought the prices a little too high (who knows, maybe they were really cheap).

    As for someone's statement that only PKOK coins are Ikes, seems to me I've seen a George Washington Half in Proof on E-Bay, along with a Bientinial Quarter (I thought Wondercoin sold them, but may be mistaken). The former, I believe is 90% silver, and the latter 40%. We do know that PKOK's exist on silver Ikes, both Mint State and Proof (I own some of both), so these therioes on not being able to tone Morgans,Walkers and Peace dollars don't appear to hold water.

    I think if we all petition our local congressman (In my case women - even though she count count all the votes) and senator, we would have just enough weight to have a full scale congressional investigation and solve the mystery. Is Archibald Cox still around???
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    Someone mentioned that they met the orginator of the PKOK's 12 years ago at Long Beach. This seems very inconsistent with what I recall the date these pieces came on the market.

    Jim Barlow offered me a few raw Silver proofs sometime in 1996, maybe even 1997, at $37.50 per, along with a few PR68DCAMS (back when 69's were not as abundant as they are today) for $125 per. At the time no one cared about proof Ikes, myself included, so I passed on the slabbed ones and bought all the raw ones. They have since graded PR68DCAM after being rejected the first time for being AT.

    Guess my memory is still working, as I looked up Halsteads comments in "The Authoritative Reference on Eisenhower Dollars" and he states Barlow offered some proofs in November of 96 for the same price as I was offered the coins. Bob bought a few as well.

    I think this is the first surfacing of the PKOK's. 12 years from today would make 1990 - my math skills are also up to date - so can anyone confirm buying PKOK's prior to 1996??? Maybe that would shed more light on the subject.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Definitely bought mine well before 1996. I was living in Vista at the time and had just sold a vast portion of my collection to purchase my first home. It was shortly after that I had my first contact with PKOK's and that was well before 1992.

    peacockcoins

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "As for someone's statement that only PKOK coins are Ikes, seems to me I've seen a George Washington Half in Proof on E-Bay, along with a Bientinial Quarter (I thought Wondercoin sold them, but may be mistaken). The former, I believe is 90% silver, and the latter 40%. We do know that PKOK's exist on silver Ikes, both Mint State and Proof (I own some of both), so these therioes on not being able to tone Morgans,Walkers and Peace dollars don't appear to hold water."

    Segoja: Supercoin sold those as I recall, not I. Interestingly, the GW half takes you up to 1982 (another 4 years past the Ikes) and then no more coins?? So, this fabulous "originator" is no longer with us?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Typetone,

    You are soooooooooooooo close, but not quite there. You state your theory in the form of inquiries. As a theory you MUST state your case with the information. No guesses or grasping, just state your case.


    Additional info.

    1) Mr XXX is still alive and doing well
    2) Mr. XXX is not affiliated with the bank or promotions or any of the manufacture of the holders.
    3) The PKOK Ikes existed LONG before Jim Barlow started selling them.
    4) braddick picks his nose on duty

    Ok. Give it your BEST shot since I won't be posting again on this thread.


    TRUTH
  • khaysekhayse Posts: 1,336
    Truth,

    So what you meant by Mr xxx and Mr yyy were the same person is that
    the person selling the PKOKs was also making them. (the storefront owner in SLC
    city that is also a vest pocket dealer at the Florida show)

    You also said that they couldn't make any more if they had the holders so
    either the sulfer in the holders has stablized (as someone said) or they were
    made using other methods.

    I'm torn on which method I believe. It doesn't seem like enough have come on the
    market if they were completely AT. I just don't believe many people are that patient
    to not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

    Can you list the things we have to guess right to have the story confirmed?
    (like in Clue, you have to guess the person, the murder weapon and the room)

    -KHayse
  • Segoya:

    Your story and Braddick's still fit the facts. Kolor Kraft Coins says the mystery seller Mr. XXX brings in a group from time to time when he wants to sell some. It is very possible the first small batch surfaced in 1990. Too few perhaps for Barlow to notice. Then a larger batch surfaces in 96. Maybe after the success of the 1990 batch, XXX tones a larger group. Don't forget, it is still quite possible the toning is "natural" using some cardboard material that takes a long time to finish. That's the batch you, I Barlow, and Halsted know about. Also don't forget that even the silver IKEs were Silver clads with copper nickel in them. Even the Washington commem had some C/N in it.

    Curious that Supercoin has not posted on this thread. He still owns more than anyone I know. Why isn't he talking?

    Truth:

    I'm still working on the final statement of my theory. How about putting up your bio for us to look at. It would be curious if you lived in SLC.

    Greg
  • I talked to one longtime SLC dealer today...he's been in the valley for over 30 years. He says he's never heard of the PKOK coins, and knows nothing about the holders I described to him.

    I did mention Kolor Kraft; his only statement about them was that they are called Kolor Kraft for a reason.

    There's a few other dealers I'll talk to later this week...we'll see what they have to say. Maybe I'll stop in at Kolor Kraft, too.
  • khaysekhayse Posts: 1,336
    Our man on the scene. Thanks MH.

    -KHayse
  • This is great. Real detective work, I must say. That's what makes this hobby fun. For your information, Kolor Kraft Coins in SLC is named such because the coin store used to be a paint store called Kolor Kraft Paint and the paint owner is now a coin dealer and decided to keep the name associated with the old paint business. BTW, some of the SLC dealers aren't real bright, so it's no wonder others in the SLC valley have not heard of PKOK. Awaiting Typetone's theory.

    TRUTH
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