I am almost ready to post my theory, but could you clarify two seemingly conflicting statements you made. You said in an earlier post that XXX did obtain the holders for the promotion, and that the holders contained IKEs. In a later post you said that XXX was not affiliated with the bank or the promotion or the manufacture of the holders. It seems if he obtained the holders for the bank that he was affliated with the promotion at least to that extent. Am I correct on this?
Also, you mentioned that Barlow coined the term PKOK, and that the abbreviation has stuck since the late 80s. Did you mean to say that Barlow came up with the word in the 80s. ie., he knew about them in the 80s?
Barlow knew about the PKOKs since the late 80s/early 90s. The term originated with him. The exact time frame is a Barlow issue, but he coined the term.
As far as the holders are concerned there are several points
1) The holders could have been sold with the IKES, but not from the bank, so the holders and IKES were separate at one time. This COULD have been done by MR XXX who obtained the holders and the IKEs at differing times.
2) The holders could have been given away by the bank with the morgans, then MR XXX could have switched the coins.
3) The IKES and the holders could have been purchased by MR XXX and sat around toning for a while, then sold.
4) The bank could have disposed of the holders independently by the bank, MR XXX obtaining the holders, then adding the already toned IKEs.
5) The coin promotor or MR XXX could be a coin dealer, ending the promotion and kept remaining holders and placed IKEs in them to sell.
TWO of these are the facts are correct, when intermingled you have the missing link.
It's apparent from Truth's prior posts that the holders in question - those from the bank did not produce the toning. Though, they do lay a nice foundation for the possible legend.
Mr XXX, coin dealer, had no involvement with the bank promotion. But did place the Ikes into the bank holders, to further the legend.
Mr XXX is the "creator" of the PCH ikes and thus to a certain extent they are AT. Maybe, not made in the oven AT, but none-the-less, color was purposefully added to these coins, thus by my definition AT, although beautiful and worth some premium.
Mr XXX is TruthTeller, knows Barlow well and distrubuted the coins through the local dealer in SLC since he does have a second home there. That's why TruthTeller knows the truth but isn't really telling the Truth. And also why Pat knows the truth as well since Truth told him. He is the holder of the secret and has the right to chose to tell someone else. Otherwise, he would have broken the vow and be in deep sh*t with whomever created these Ikes.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it
By the way, if that is the Truth, I still want one for my collection, because they really are beautiful!
This is great, this IS great. Now I am part of the PKOK legend, forever immortalized. I will tell you truthfully, I am not Mr XXX. I do know Mr XXX very well and in numismatic circles, he is very well known. He often tells many about his numismatic career as well as the PKOK story. He has told me almost everything, but has kept one tiny element from me, which will be HIS secret and the absolute KEY to the PKOK story. I have known MR XXX for many years, and have done business with him on many occassions. I only recently owned a second house in SLC, within the last two years, and MR XXX has lived in SLC for only period of a few years. The PKOK story has never been a secret, but has changed when spread by word of mouth. I have attained the story from Mr. XXX and is accurate only from what he tells me. The vow of secrecy relates to a particular aspect of the story, which I have not broken publicly. In addition, I know OF Jim Barlow and we have talked only a couple of times on nonPKOK related business. I will always tell the TRUTH, even if you don't believe me. Frattlaw gets no PM from me.
Ah, c'mon, I was close! So you know him, I was close!
Truth - I do believe you, but it did make an interesting theory
Anyway, and either way, it seems to be that the authenticity of the PKOK Hoard is in question. Why search any further, allow the legend to continue. Who really wants to know the whole truth. A little mystery is always great!
As others have said, they are beautiful coins and should be admired for that. Where they came from or how they got that way. Doesn't matter! (Well as long as I'm not paying the premium )
Truth, Type & Pat, as well as all others Thanks for a great thread!
OK, here is my theory with questions listed that might not be answerable from the information provided.
XXX, a dealer or numismatic individual, acquired the holders with IKEs for the bank (from an early Truth post). Either XXX decided to keep the IKEs or the bank decided they wanted Morgans instead and XXX kept the IKEs and maybe some holders. The bank went ahead and did their Morgan thing with their holders. XXX meanwhile had a bunch of IKEs and maybe some holders. XXX being a resourceful person with a bunch of IKEs in some way toned them. How is probably the last secret that even Truth, Braddick, and Barlow do not know. It seems that the bank holders were not however the means. Once toned XXX decided to sell some of the pieces. A few might have been sold direct by him around 1990 in Long Beach for about $100 (Braddick's post). Barlow probably learned the story at that point. Most it seems later went to Kolor Kraft Coins for sale raw in around 1996. The price at that time seemed lower than $100 each. Of course XXX could be Kolor Kraft, though the testimony of Kolor Kraft is that XXX sold the PKOKs to them. Also, Kolor Kraft is by no means well known in the numismatic community. XXX might have placed a few in remaining bank holders to maintain the image that they were the toning means, which Braddick claims XXX later admitted to be doo doo. Kolor Kraft sold them to folks like Barlow, Halsted, et all. The demand for the pieces grew and they since have become quite valuable, the folklore perhaps adding to the value. Probably, XXX is toning some more IKEs now and from time to time sells a few.
Here are my remaining questions:
1. Who is Mr. XXX. From a historical viewpoint, it would be interesting to know since Truth claims he is a well known numismatist. However, unless XXX is Barlow (which Truth denies), Truth himself (which truth denies), Braddick (which Braddick denies), me (which I now deny), Rick Tomaska (which would be easy to disprove if I was pushed), James Sego (maybe), Bob Halsted (maybe), or Supercoin (which I strongly doubt), is it really important? Truth, if you can tell please do so unless XXX himself requested secrecy. However, it seems like XXX is more than willing to share most of the story (from your testimony).
2. Why was there a gap from the first group of sales to the second? Why was the second group sold cheaper? My guess is that XXX was successful with the first sales, and sought to tone some more. Presumably the process took time especially if "natural". By 1996 the market was depressed. As it seems the 1996 group was larger, the price was lower.
3. Why no more PKOKs? First, we don't know their are no more. XXX might have been discouraged by the 1996 prices and decided not to do any more. Perhaps with the increase in market value, he is working on more as we write. Perhaps he has more, but is only selling a few at a time. It is logical to suppose that XXX will limit his activity to IKEs. If other coins begin to appear, PKOKs will look less like a hoard and more like a manufactured product. IKEs only maintains the mystique and price.
4. Why did XXX sell through Kolor Koin. Unless everyone is lying including Barlow, Halsted, and Kolor Koin themselves, they were the main conduit of the 1996 batch. Yet if XXX was a well known numismatist, why not sell them himself, or use a more mainline dealer or an auction house. Unless Truth is lying, Kolor Koin would not be XXX as they certainly are not well known numismatists as far as I know.
In any event it seems as though those who know the PKOK story prize them. This itself tells me that they are not cheap AT manufactured products. Personally, I only have one left in my collection, and it is spoken for. So, my interest at this point is primarily academic and historic, yet still a passion.
Sorry Greg, no PM from me. A major flaw is your timeline. Your assumption that Kolor Kraft Koin is not well known in NUMISMATIC circles is incorrect. On this forum, I cannot tell you who Mr XXX is. All the people you mention as a suspect for Mr. XXX are incorrect. The suppy of PKOKs from the hoard has been exhausted several years ago. Very good try and I thought you were close with the questions asked. The folklore continues.
All right. Truth says I don't have it yet. However, the facts seem to be on the table. Let's see if we can put it together.
Here's what we know or can logically surmise. Kolor Kraft, or one of its principals seems to be the creator and source. Braddick referred to the originator as a vest pocket dealer with an office in SLC. Truth calls the originator a well known numismatist. I suggested that Kolor Kraft was probably not the creator because they are not well known and because they themselves claimed that they got the coins from someone else. Truth asserts they are however well known. His point 10 was that some people lie. So perhaps Kolor Kraft lied to me when they said there was another source. Seems like a logical thing to lie about to a person who cold calls them from another state. Also it explains why Kolor Kraft was the main sales conduit. So XXX is Kolor Kraft or one of its current or former principals.
Truth says I have the timeline wrong. Well from 1990 on the facts seem clear. Sales of the PKOKs became apparent in 1990 from Braddicks post, he bought some then. Perhaps a few sold befor e1990, but no data on that. We also know from several sources that more were sold around 1996. So my timeline error must be before 1990. Before 1990 is when they were created.
In an earlier post Truth gives five facts about the bank holders. Two were true, three false. But he also suggests that the holders were not the toning medium. Braddick also says that XXX, Kolor Koin, admitted to him that the bank story was a hoax. How some PKOKs got in bank holders is perhaps interesting, but seemingly not germaine to the PKOK creation. It is interesting that Truth says the supply is now exhausted. That seems to imply no AT, and that for some reason no more can be done.
One more fact I remembered. The bank stated they got the holders from a supplier in SLC. That supplier was not Kolor Koin nor a coin dealer. I forgot the name, but it seemed like an office supply company or something like that. So when truth says that XXX obtained the holders, he must not have obtained them for the bank, but got them afterward somehow, or got different ones. We also know from Halsted that the holders from the bank, had the bank name printed on them. So, it seems unlikely that XXX had them sitting around waiting for the bank to order.
Too early for my brain to handle sleuthing , but to comment on some previous points... the "silver" Ikes have copper in them, but no nickel. The outer layers on silver Ikes are 80/20 silver/copper alloy, which is not that far from a Morgan's 90/10 silver/copper alloy. So it seems that a Morgan could tone similarly if it's just exposure to chemicals as opposed to something related to the clad construction of the coin.
Also, similar toning has been found on 1964 Kennedy proofs and George Washington proofs, which are both 90/10 silver/copper like a Morgan.
PKOKs are impossible to photograph. The toning is delicate, delicious, and delightful. Unfortunately they defy all attempts at photography. Thanks to Supercoin for the photos and the insights. I think he will be the first to admit that they look so much better in person. I had mine imaged by NGC, Pinnacle, and Supercoin. All acknowledged that they just couldn't be done to show their glory. Just adds to the mystique I suppose.
"Thanks to Supercoin for the photos and the insights. I think he will be the first to admit that they look so much better in person"
Greg: He may be the "first to admit that", but I sincerely doubt he will be the first to admit on this thread the toning on the PKOK coins is not "AT" and created purely through "mother nature's" work without the assistance of any person. And there are others on this thread that also have not said the same thing.
IMHO, the first step is always recognizing the problem
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
What's the matter with you guys? It didn't not make imperfect nonsense to me.
Clearly the Peaccok coins were helped along with some sort of treatment or storage, as is the case with bascially any dramatically toned coin. The only question is how that help occurred, and whether it fits your idea of acceptable.
Rick (formerly of PCGS) Montgomery made an interesting comment to me once about some toned coins of mine in explaining why they were bodybagged. Even though I knew the history of the coins, and he believed me, he said something to the effect that just because they are "naturally" toned doesn't mean they are "market acceptable".
So I think that, for example, intentional accelerated toning storing a coin in a high-sulfur album in a sunny display window might be acceptable whereas unusual toning caused by innocently storing a coin in your sock with an odor eater for 20 years might not be. Toning is a murky area.
Not sure what the moral to the story is, other than -- as always -- collect what you like. Which is why I own those coins I posted.
Ok, ok... I can't take it any more. You guys are killing me.
I'm sure there are others that have read this thread that are thinking the same thing. They may be in front of their keyboards, as I am now, typing a similar reply.
Will the real Mr. XXX... PLEASE STAND UP!!!
NOW!!!
The suspense is killing me... and Greg doesn't have any more furniture to break.
I learned much from these posts. As it seems like the new information is drawing to a close, let me review what we know, what we can reasonably surmise, and what we still need to find out.
According to Braddick, the first PKOKs appeared on the market around 1990. This was new to me as I thought they first appeared around 1996. Braddick claims the "originator" sold some to him, and that the originator had an office in Salt Lake City. Significant additional sales occurred around 1996 through Kolor Kraft Coins, a Salt Lake City dealer. This fact was confirmed by Jim Barlow and Bob Halsted. I reasonably surmise that Kolor Kraft Coins or one of its owners was the "originator". It also suggests, though doesn't prove that more than one batch of PKOKs was toned. My guess is that a small group toned in the late 80s and that a larger batch toned in the mid 90s.
From posts by Truthteller, and my own conversations with the bank, I think we have debunked the myth that the bank holders were the source of PKOK toning. The bank clearly denies ever putting IKEs in their holders. They only used Morgans and Peace dollars. We do not see examples of Morgan and Peace PKOKs. Supercoin made it clear that if silver IKEs would PKOK tone, so would Morgans. The reasonable surmise is that the holders did not cause the toning. How did the holders get associated with the PKOKs? Barlow told me he learned that the bank sold remaining inventory in the late 90s. I surmise Kolor Kraft bought them and put in the PKOKs, perhaps to improve marketability. As further evidence, I learned from the bank that they originally acquired the holders from an office supply company in SLC (sorry, I lost the name, but the company had no remaining records of the holders manufacturer). The source of the holders was not Kolor Koin. So, it is not reasonable to think that Kolor Koin acquired the holders for the bank, and kept some for themselves. In short there is no reasonable relation between the PKOK toning and the bank holders.
What questions remain? First, who was the real artist. Braddick claims the originator is the SLC dealer who sold them in 1990, implying that Kolor Koin or an owner is the artist. Does Braddick know for sure? Kolor Koin itself told me in a conversation that the ultimate source is another person who brings them in from time to time. I think this at least suggests a question as to the identity of the original artist or artists. Second, how were they toned? This is the key question? Perhaps only Kolor Kraft or the original artist know for sure. Third, can more appear? Truthteller claims the hoard is exhausted. Does he and can he really know for sure? Unless he offers proof or more reasoning, I think this question also remains open. The final question for me is how and why did the artist find the raw IKEs. Most C/N PKOKs are MS65 or better. Real IKE collectors know these are hard to find, extremely hard. What possessed the artist to struggle to find such great IKEs. Seems like they sold in the $100 range raw, probably due to the coloring. It doesn't seem like you would search long and hard for such nice pieces if your goal is to create value through toning. And why even IKEs and not some other kinds of coins?
Anyway, that's what I think we know, what we can infer, and what we need to find out. Let me know if anyone sees the facts presented leading to different conclusions.
What's clear to me is that these Ikes should be considered works of art to be appreciated. Whether there man made, man infulenced or natural is really besides the point. Which is better a Maui sunset or the Mona Lisa, both are beautiful in their own ways.
I think the answer to the AT question has been clearly made in these posts. The question then becomes internal, why do you collect coins or more specifically why do you collect toned coins -- originality, beauty, grade, appreciation. Same as art. If beauty and originality are the answers, then AT or not doesn't much matter. The fact remains, it is highly unlikely that we'll ever see more PKOK coins. Thus they are originals. Why purchase an original piece of art from an artist that isn't dead, he/she could create more, yes, but each piece will be unique.
I for one, will someday purchase a PKOK Ike, (if I can ever afford one) and share in this coin's originality and beauty and probably never resell it. I hope everyone else has had their questions answered as I have. Let the Legend live on.
I can't BELIEVE all of you are so obsessed with these AT Ikes. What a scam. Why not just go and overpay for some "limited edition" collectibles from the Franklin Mint instead. At least you'll know how many were made.
Hehehehe that comment is sure to p*ss you all off !!!!!
Here's a thought: if a given coin is worth X with rainbow toning, and Y when dipped white, or untoned, then look at the ratio of X/Y. If that ratio is too high, and if Y is itself a low number, then there is great incentive to pursue the AT scam. These Ikes are perfect. Not many people would care much about them without the toning.
Mitch, what's X/Y for that 1888 nickel ??? <ducking> True, at least that coin would have fetched $5000 even if dipped white. So even though X/Y > 4.0, the coin had some intrinsic value without the toning. Unlike those IKES. "PKOK" my A**. Greg, you've been scammed by Messrs. XXX/YYY, especially in having spent so much time on it. Someone is probably dipping the coins in some chemical and baking them in a sweet potato pie (yes, I actually heard that was a viable technique !!! how silly)
Sunnywood: Actually, a nice 1888 Lib nickel in MS66 would probably be closer to a $7500+ coin in typical white these days, wouldn't you say. I suspect Greg might agree. It is one of the key date coins to the series in high grade as you know. A monster toned at 2 1/2 -3x times, no - THE VERY PRETTIEST COLORED LIB NICKEL MANY DEALERS IN THE COUNTRY HAD EVER SEEN IN ANY DATE IN THE ENTIRE SERIES EVER (INCLUDING LAURA, MY UNDERBIDDER)- compare that to the Morgans!! What a bargain
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I really don't understand how guys like you and dbdie, who really love nickels, don't like IKEs. I really like the C/N composition. In particular, I think when it tones, C/N pieces can be very beautiful. Whether Lib 5c, IKEs, or Buffalos, colored C/N pieces are a treat.
On your specific comment, it seems that the C/N PKOK IKEs are high quality, MS65 or better by and large. In fact one of the mystery's in my view is how did XXX find such high grade stuff. These pieces would be in demand even without the toning. Yes, they trade at multiples with, but not huge ones. For example, I still have a 74D in PCGS MS67, which is probably a $6,500 coin w/o toning. I was asking $9,500 with the PKOK toning. The actual proposed sales price is in the range. So, yes a premium, but not ridiculous multiple. Even C/N 66s probably only trade about 5x. 65s at about 10x. I think these are fair. Regardless of the toning method, they really are beautiful, and PCGS/NGC/ANACS do certify them.
<< <i>I really don't understand how guys like you and dbdie, who really love nickels, don't like IKEs. I really like the C/N composition. In particular, I think when it tones, C/N pieces can be very beautiful. Whether Lib 5c, IKEs, or Buffalos, colored C/N pieces are a treat. >>
Greg, I like girls too, I just don't like ugly ones. My dislike for Ikes has nothing to do with the metal they are made of. My fondness for Nickels also has nothing to do with what they are made of. I really don't ever to expect my opinion of Ike's to change.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>I really don't understand how guys like you and dbdie, who really love nickels, don't like IKEs. I really like the C/N composition. In particular, I think when it tones, C/N pieces can be very beautiful. Whether Lib 5c, IKEs, or Buffalos, colored C/N pieces are a treat. >>
Greg, I like girls too, I just don't like ugly ones. My dislike for Ikes has nothing to do with the metal they are made of. My fondness for Nickels also has nothing to do with what they are made of. I really don't ever to expect my opinion of Ike's to change. >>
This is one of the greatest comments I've read here in awhile! I love it. Thanks for putting a smile on my face. (It's accurate too!)
Since I have sold my collection, I am not the strongest IKE buyer. I would probably pay $5,000 for a nice PCGS MS67 74D. Their are probably multiple buyers above at $5,500. In a auction, the top buyer I expect would pay around $6,500.
Greg: Interesting. The last customer I put into that coin earlier this year paid well under $3k including my markup You learn something new every day. The next one I get in - I'll be sure to email you at $5k Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
LOLOL Khayse ... yes, I don't know what came over me. Occasionally, my usual veneer of civility vanishes to reveal a scathing tongue tethered to an uncompromisingly elitist ego. And I must say, it is really fun to be nasty, insulting and sarcastic once in a while, instead of always being so nice In this respect, I have always admired Spooly and Greg M. !!!
Hey, the price on that went up -- it was $10 last time it was on eBay. I forgot to bid on it and e-mailed him afterward with no response. $20 is too rich for me.
Hey, how did Supercoin get a picture of me? There must be spies out there. BTW, I was in Salt Lake the last few days and got an interesting update on the PKOK hoard. Sorry, can't tell anything, but it's good!
Glad you made this thread 100 posts. However, you really didn't say anything. If you know something please tell us as we would all like to learn more about PKOKs. If you don't want to share anything for whatever reason, then I would appreciate it if you would keep it to yourself This confidentiality stuff is garbage. Unless you know how they were toned, which you say you don't, then my view is that you don't have anything that really needs to be keep confidential. So out with it, or the games are over.
I want to thank all of you that helped me understand the whole PKOK history. As a collector I'm not interested in Ikes. What does interest me is the history behind the PKOKs. To think collectors would pay such high prices for AT is amazing to me. If in fact they are AT. Which seems possible based on what has been said here.
So this is what I've learned, in part, so far. As stated by some who have replied.
Does anyone know the history behing the Peaco*k Hoard?
PKOK Hoard = Peaco*k Hoard
I know something you don't know.
I, and others would like to know too.
I can't tell you. But you can guess.
So-and-so says he knows a little about what you know.
Perhaps.
Is it this?
Perhaps.
How about this?
Maybe you know something now... not!
Can we have a hint?
Sure, if you guess the clue.
How about this?
I'm not talking about it anymore.
Awwh... come on. You could tell if you wanted to.
Yes, but then everyone reading this thread would know too. And then there wouldn't be a secret anymore.
Will you whisper it to me?
Sure... not! haha
Now I think I know, what you know, that I don't know.
Try again later.
Now we know who you are because we have a picture of you. And this is what we're going to do if you don't tell.
But... we still don't know what we didn't know, before we knew someone knew, and wouldn't tell what they knew, knowing... we didn't know.
A sequel, a sequel, this thread needs a sequel. How about "return of the living dead PKOKs"? or "PKOK's revenge" or "How the PKOK ate Truthteller's brain"?
Comments
I am almost ready to post my theory, but could you clarify two seemingly conflicting statements you made. You said in an earlier post that XXX did obtain the holders for the promotion, and that the holders contained IKEs. In a later post you said that XXX was not affiliated with the bank or the promotion or the manufacture of the holders. It seems if he obtained the holders for the bank that he was affliated with the promotion at least to that extent. Am I correct on this?
Also, you mentioned that Barlow coined the term PKOK, and that the abbreviation has stuck since the late 80s. Did you mean to say that Barlow came up with the word in the 80s. ie., he knew about them in the 80s?
Greg
As far as the holders are concerned there are several points
1) The holders could have been sold with the IKES, but not from the bank, so the holders and IKES were separate at one time. This COULD have been done by MR XXX who obtained the holders and the IKEs at differing times.
2) The holders could have been given away by the bank with the morgans, then MR XXX could have switched the coins.
3) The IKES and the holders could have been purchased by MR XXX and sat around toning for a while, then sold.
4) The bank could have disposed of the holders independently by the bank, MR XXX obtaining the holders, then adding the already toned IKEs.
5) The coin promotor or MR XXX could be a coin dealer, ending the promotion and kept remaining holders and placed IKEs in them to sell.
TWO of these are the facts are correct, when intermingled you have the missing link.
TRUTH
Mr XXX, coin dealer, had no involvement with the bank promotion. But did place the Ikes into the bank holders, to further the legend.
Mr XXX is the "creator" of the PCH ikes and thus to a certain extent they are AT. Maybe, not made in the oven AT, but none-the-less, color was purposefully added to these coins, thus by my definition AT, although beautiful and worth some premium.
Mr XXX is TruthTeller, knows Barlow well and distrubuted the coins through the local dealer in SLC since he does have a second home there. That's why TruthTeller knows the truth but isn't really telling the Truth. And also why Pat knows the truth as well since Truth told him. He is the holder of the secret and has the right to chose to tell someone else. Otherwise, he would have broken the vow and be in deep sh*t with whomever created these Ikes.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it
By the way, if that is the Truth, I still want one for my collection, because they really are beautiful!
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
TRUTH
Truth - I do believe you, but it did make an interesting theory
Anyway, and either way, it seems to be that the authenticity of the PKOK Hoard is in question. Why search any further, allow the legend to continue. Who really wants to know the whole truth. A little mystery is always great!
As others have said, they are beautiful coins and should be admired for that. Where they came from or how they got that way. Doesn't matter! (Well as long as I'm not paying the premium
Truth, Type & Pat, as well as all others Thanks for a great thread!
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
(Just having some fun. Us Mormons have to stick together)
I think I'm the one who introduced TRUTH to Jim Barlow, if I'm not mistaken.
Also, Jim knows about as much as TRUTH and he's not talking. . .
OK, enough already. Even I'm now getting confused.
peacockcoins
XXX, a dealer or numismatic individual, acquired the holders with IKEs for the bank (from an early Truth post). Either XXX decided to keep the IKEs or the bank decided they wanted Morgans instead and XXX kept the IKEs and maybe some holders. The bank went ahead and did their Morgan thing with their holders. XXX meanwhile had a bunch of IKEs and maybe some holders. XXX being a resourceful person with a bunch of IKEs in some way toned them. How is probably the last secret that even Truth, Braddick, and Barlow do not know. It seems that the bank holders were not however the means. Once toned XXX decided to sell some of the pieces. A few might have been sold direct by him around 1990 in Long Beach for about $100 (Braddick's post). Barlow probably learned the story at that point. Most it seems later went to Kolor Kraft Coins for sale raw in around 1996. The price at that time seemed lower than $100 each. Of course XXX could be Kolor Kraft, though the testimony of Kolor Kraft is that XXX sold the PKOKs to them. Also, Kolor Kraft is by no means well known in the numismatic community. XXX might have placed a few in remaining bank holders to maintain the image that they were the toning means, which Braddick claims XXX later admitted to be doo doo. Kolor Kraft sold them to folks like Barlow, Halsted, et all. The demand for the pieces grew and they since have become quite valuable, the folklore perhaps adding to the value. Probably, XXX is toning some more IKEs now and from time to time sells a few.
Here are my remaining questions:
1. Who is Mr. XXX. From a historical viewpoint, it would be interesting to know since Truth claims he is a well known numismatist. However, unless XXX is Barlow (which Truth denies), Truth himself (which truth denies), Braddick (which Braddick denies), me (which I now deny), Rick Tomaska (which would be easy to disprove if I was pushed), James Sego (maybe), Bob Halsted (maybe), or Supercoin (which I strongly doubt), is it really important? Truth, if you can tell please do so unless XXX himself requested secrecy. However, it seems like XXX is more than willing to share most of the story (from your testimony).
2. Why was there a gap from the first group of sales to the second? Why was the second group sold cheaper? My guess is that XXX was successful with the first sales, and sought to tone some more. Presumably the process took time especially if "natural". By 1996 the market was depressed. As it seems the 1996 group was larger, the price was lower.
3. Why no more PKOKs? First, we don't know their are no more. XXX might have been discouraged by the 1996 prices and decided not to do any more. Perhaps with the increase in market value, he is working on more as we write. Perhaps he has more, but is only selling a few at a time. It is logical to suppose that XXX will limit his activity to IKEs. If other coins begin to appear, PKOKs will look less like a hoard and more like a manufactured product. IKEs only maintains the mystique and price.
4. Why did XXX sell through Kolor Koin. Unless everyone is lying including Barlow, Halsted, and Kolor Koin themselves, they were the main conduit of the 1996 batch. Yet if XXX was a well known numismatist, why not sell them himself, or use a more mainline dealer or an auction house. Unless Truth is lying, Kolor Koin would not be XXX as they certainly are not well known numismatists as far as I know.
In any event it seems as though those who know the PKOK story prize them. This itself tells me that they are not cheap AT manufactured products. Personally, I only have one left in my collection, and it is spoken for. So, my interest at this point is primarily academic and historic, yet still a passion.
All right Truthteller, how about a PM!!!
Greg
TRUTH
Here's what we know or can logically surmise. Kolor Kraft, or one of its principals seems to be the creator and source. Braddick referred to the originator as a vest pocket dealer with an office in SLC. Truth calls the originator a well known numismatist. I suggested that Kolor Kraft was probably not the creator because they are not well known and because they themselves claimed that they got the coins from someone else. Truth asserts they are however well known. His point 10 was that some people lie. So perhaps Kolor Kraft lied to me when they said there was another source. Seems like a logical thing to lie about to a person who cold calls them from another state. Also it explains why Kolor Kraft was the main sales conduit. So XXX is Kolor Kraft or one of its current or former principals.
Truth says I have the timeline wrong. Well from 1990 on the facts seem clear. Sales of the PKOKs became apparent in 1990 from Braddicks post, he bought some then. Perhaps a few sold befor e1990, but no data on that. We also know from several sources that more were sold around 1996. So my timeline error must be before 1990. Before 1990 is when they were created.
In an earlier post Truth gives five facts about the bank holders. Two were true, three false. But he also suggests that the holders were not the toning medium. Braddick also says that XXX, Kolor Koin, admitted to him that the bank story was a hoax. How some PKOKs got in bank holders is perhaps interesting, but seemingly not germaine to the PKOK creation. It is interesting that Truth says the supply is now exhausted. That seems to imply no AT, and that for some reason no more can be done.
One more fact I remembered. The bank stated they got the holders from a supplier in SLC. That supplier was not Kolor Koin nor a coin dealer. I forgot the name, but it seemed like an office supply company or something like that. So when truth says that XXX obtained the holders, he must not have obtained them for the bank, but got them afterward somehow, or got different ones. We also know from Halsted that the holders from the bank, had the bank name printed on them. So, it seems unlikely that XXX had them sitting around waiting for the bank to order.
Who can put the rest of the facts together?
greg
Also, similar toning has been found on 1964 Kennedy proofs and George Washington proofs, which are both 90/10 silver/copper like a Morgan.
Copper-Nickel Business Strike
Silver Business Strike
Copper-Nickel Proof
Silver Proof
I suppose I would need to see one upclose to see if they are worth legendary status.
I do not think they look AT to me.
Tbig
PKOKs are impossible to photograph. The toning is delicate, delicious, and delightful. Unfortunately they defy all attempts at photography. Thanks to Supercoin for the photos and the insights. I think he will be the first to admit that they look so much better in person. I had mine imaged by NGC, Pinnacle, and Supercoin. All acknowledged that they just couldn't be done to show their glory. Just adds to the mystique I suppose.
Greg
Greg: He may be the "first to admit that", but I sincerely doubt he will be the first to admit on this thread the toning on the PKOK coins is not "AT" and created purely through "mother nature's" work without the assistance of any person. And there are others on this thread that also have not said the same thing.
IMHO, the first step is always recognizing the problem
Wondercoin
You used so many double negatives in your last post, that I have no idea what you said. Try again please.
Greg
Wondercoin.
Whew, I thought it was just me.
-KHayse
Clearly the Peaccok coins were helped along with some sort of treatment or storage, as is the case with bascially any dramatically toned coin. The only question is how that help occurred, and whether it fits your idea of acceptable.
Rick (formerly of PCGS) Montgomery made an interesting comment to me once about some toned coins of mine in explaining why they were bodybagged. Even though I knew the history of the coins, and he believed me, he said something to the effect that just because they are "naturally" toned doesn't mean they are "market acceptable".
So I think that, for example, intentional accelerated toning storing a coin in a high-sulfur album in a sunny display window might be acceptable whereas unusual toning caused by innocently storing a coin in your sock with an odor eater for 20 years might not be. Toning is a murky area.
Not sure what the moral to the story is, other than -- as always -- collect what you like. Which is why I own those coins I posted.
I'm sure there are others that have read this thread that are thinking the same thing. They may be in front of their keyboards, as I am now, typing a similar reply.
Will the real Mr. XXX... PLEASE STAND UP!!!
NOW!!!
The suspense is killing me... and Greg doesn't have any more furniture to break.
According to Braddick, the first PKOKs appeared on the market around 1990. This was new to me as I thought they first appeared around 1996. Braddick claims the "originator" sold some to him, and that the originator had an office in Salt Lake City. Significant additional sales occurred around 1996 through Kolor Kraft Coins, a Salt Lake City dealer. This fact was confirmed by Jim Barlow and Bob Halsted. I reasonably surmise that Kolor Kraft Coins or one of its owners was the "originator". It also suggests, though doesn't prove that more than one batch of PKOKs was toned. My guess is that a small group toned in the late 80s and that a larger batch toned in the mid 90s.
From posts by Truthteller, and my own conversations with the bank, I think we have debunked the myth that the bank holders were the source of PKOK toning. The bank clearly denies ever putting IKEs in their holders. They only used Morgans and Peace dollars. We do not see examples of Morgan and Peace PKOKs. Supercoin made it clear that if silver IKEs would PKOK tone, so would Morgans. The reasonable surmise is that the holders did not cause the toning. How did the holders get associated with the PKOKs? Barlow told me he learned that the bank sold remaining inventory in the late 90s. I surmise Kolor Kraft bought them and put in the PKOKs, perhaps to improve marketability. As further evidence, I learned from the bank that they originally acquired the holders from an office supply company in SLC (sorry, I lost the name, but the company had no remaining records of the holders manufacturer). The source of the holders was not Kolor Koin. So, it is not reasonable to think that Kolor Koin acquired the holders for the bank, and kept some for themselves. In short there is no reasonable relation between the PKOK toning and the bank holders.
What questions remain? First, who was the real artist. Braddick claims the originator is the SLC dealer who sold them in 1990, implying that Kolor Koin or an owner is the artist. Does Braddick know for sure? Kolor Koin itself told me in a conversation that the ultimate source is another person who brings them in from time to time. I think this at least suggests a question as to the identity of the original artist or artists. Second, how were they toned? This is the key question? Perhaps only Kolor Kraft or the original artist know for sure. Third, can more appear? Truthteller claims the hoard is exhausted. Does he and can he really know for sure? Unless he offers proof or more reasoning, I think this question also remains open. The final question for me is how and why did the artist find the raw IKEs. Most C/N PKOKs are MS65 or better. Real IKE collectors know these are hard to find, extremely hard. What possessed the artist to struggle to find such great IKEs. Seems like they sold in the $100 range raw, probably due to the coloring. It doesn't seem like you would search long and hard for such nice pieces if your goal is to create value through toning. And why even IKEs and not some other kinds of coins?
Anyway, that's what I think we know, what we can infer, and what we need to find out. Let me know if anyone sees the facts presented leading to different conclusions.
Cheers
Greg
I think the answer to the AT question has been clearly made in these posts. The question then becomes internal, why do you collect coins or more specifically why do you collect toned coins -- originality, beauty, grade, appreciation. Same as art. If beauty and originality are the answers, then AT or not doesn't much matter. The fact remains, it is highly unlikely that we'll ever see more PKOK coins. Thus they are originals. Why purchase an original piece of art from an artist that isn't dead, he/she could create more, yes, but each piece will be unique.
I for one, will someday purchase a PKOK Ike, (if I can ever afford one) and share in this coin's originality and beauty and probably never resell it. I hope everyone else has had their questions answered as I have. Let the Legend live on.
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
Hehehehe that comment is sure to p*ss you all off !!!!!
Here's a thought: if a given coin is worth X with rainbow toning, and Y when dipped white, or untoned, then look at the ratio of X/Y. If that ratio is too high, and if Y is itself a low number, then there is great incentive to pursue the AT scam. These Ikes are perfect. Not many people would care much about them without the toning.
Mitch, what's X/Y for that 1888 nickel ??? <ducking> True, at least that coin would have fetched $5000 even if dipped white. So even though X/Y > 4.0, the coin had some intrinsic value without the toning. Unlike those IKES. "PKOK" my A**. Greg, you've been scammed by Messrs. XXX/YYY, especially in having spent so much time on it. Someone is probably dipping the coins in some chemical and baking them in a sweet potato pie (yes, I actually heard that was a viable technique !!! how silly)
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Wondercoin.
I really don't understand how guys like you and dbdie, who really love nickels, don't like IKEs. I really like the C/N composition. In particular, I think when it tones, C/N pieces can be very beautiful. Whether Lib 5c, IKEs, or Buffalos, colored C/N pieces are a treat.
On your specific comment, it seems that the C/N PKOK IKEs are high quality, MS65 or better by and large. In fact one of the mystery's in my view is how did XXX find such high grade stuff. These pieces would be in demand even without the toning. Yes, they trade at multiples with, but not huge ones. For example, I still have a 74D in PCGS MS67, which is probably a $6,500 coin w/o toning. I was asking $9,500 with the PKOK toning. The actual proposed sales price is in the range. So, yes a premium, but not ridiculous multiple. Even C/N 66s probably only trade about 5x. 65s at about 10x. I think these are fair. Regardless of the toning method, they really are beautiful, and PCGS/NGC/ANACS do certify them.
BTW, have you ever seen one in person?
Greg
<< <i>I really don't understand how guys like you and dbdie, who really love nickels, don't like IKEs. I really like the C/N composition. In particular, I think when it tones, C/N pieces can be very beautiful. Whether Lib 5c, IKEs, or Buffalos, colored C/N pieces are a treat. >>
Greg, I like girls too, I just don't like ugly ones. My dislike for Ikes has nothing to do with the metal they are made of. My fondness for Nickels also has nothing to do with what they are made of. I really don't ever to expect my opinion of Ike's to change.
Greg: What is your buy price on the 74(d) in PCGS-MS67 for a "nice" coin? Come on now
<< <i>
<< <i>I really don't understand how guys like you and dbdie, who really love nickels, don't like IKEs. I really like the C/N composition. In particular, I think when it tones, C/N pieces can be very beautiful. Whether Lib 5c, IKEs, or Buffalos, colored C/N pieces are a treat. >>
Greg, I like girls too, I just don't like ugly ones. My dislike for Ikes has nothing to do with the metal they are made of. My fondness for Nickels also has nothing to do with what they are made of. I really don't ever to expect my opinion of Ike's to change. >>
This is one of the greatest comments I've read here in awhile! I love it.
Thanks for putting a smile on my face. (It's accurate too!)
peacockcoins
Since I have sold my collection, I am not the strongest IKE buyer. I would probably pay $5,000 for a nice PCGS MS67 74D. Their are probably multiple buyers above at $5,500. In a auction, the top buyer I expect would pay around $6,500.
Greg
Just finished your class on how to win friends and influence people,
did ya?
-KHayse
Greg
When Greg stops buying, send em my way!
Greg,
Thought your 74-D was sold...what happened.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
One made finest known PKOK 76-D Type I in MS66.
Others where MS65...should have been a few MS66's.
I'll post them when they come back and if I can get my scanner up and running.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
$3,000 for a PCGS MS67 74D, send it to me ASAP. The last MS67 clad Ike (76-P type two) in the market was asking $7800
PKOK Holder
Collecting Dollars
<< <i>Memo to file: Call Braddick's wife and let her know about the perfect Christmas present on ebay for Pat.
Memo to Mitch: My wife is reading this over my shoulder.
peacockcoins
TRUTH
Glad you made this thread 100 posts. However, you really didn't say anything. If you know something please tell us as we would all like to learn more about PKOKs. If you don't want to share anything for whatever reason, then I would appreciate it if you would keep it to yourself
Greg
TRUTH
You might say that.
Cough it up, or change your handle to truthteaser!
-KHayse
ps oh yeah,
So this is what I've learned, in part, so far. As stated by some who have replied.
Does anyone know the history behing the Peaco*k Hoard?
PKOK Hoard = Peaco*k Hoard
I know something you don't know.
I, and others would like to know too.
I can't tell you. But you can guess.
So-and-so says he knows a little about what you know.
Perhaps.
Is it this?
Perhaps.
How about this?
Maybe you know something now... not!
Can we have a hint?
Sure, if you guess the clue.
How about this?
I'm not talking about it anymore.
Awwh... come on. You could tell if you wanted to.
Yes, but then everyone reading this thread would know too. And then there wouldn't be a secret anymore.
Will you whisper it to me?
Sure... not! haha
Now I think I know, what you know, that I don't know.
Try again later.
Now we know who you are because we have a picture of you. And this is what we're going to do if you don't tell.
But... we still don't know what we didn't know, before we knew someone knew, and wouldn't tell what they knew, knowing... we didn't know.
Hmmm...
Excellent summary. Amazing this thread has 105 hits, along with two spin off threads that have generated 20+ hits each. We haven't even said anything.
Does this mean that we are all full of hot air!!!!
Bottom line when you see a nicely toned PKOK like Ikes or not, you'll like these coins.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
TRUTH