Common coins and common sense
HansMoleman
Posts: 23
Common sense in the coin business is rarer than any coin. Today I received the latest price list from David Lawrence. I mulled over the purchase of a 1942 type one nickel in Proof 66 for my collection. $92 did not seem like an unreasonable price. However, I looked a few lines above it and saw that a 2002 nickel in PCGS MS66 FS sells for $98!
Has the world gone crazy? Does anyone else think this strange? I can go to my local bank and get an entire roll of 2002 nickels for $2.00. I suspect I would not find an MS66 FS in it. So what? What is wrong with an MS65 or even an MS64? Is it reasonable for a collector to spend $97.95 more for one in a little better condition than one he can get from almost any bank?
I can look through as many rolls of nickels as I like and I will never find a proof 1942 nickel in the lot. That gives it value to me. Grade is only one component of pricing. Does it really account for 99% of a coin's value? Date, mintmark, type, and variety, metallic composition also influence pricing, so a 1909-S VDB cent sells for more than a 1909 cent. I may find a low grade 1909 cent in a junk box, but the chances of finding a 1909-S VDB in any grade for the same price are miniscule. I cannot fill the hole in my album with an inexpensive grade because they are expensive in all grades.
It gets worse. The same price list shows a 1955-D nickel in PCGS MS64 FS for $1,200. My Red Book shows a 1955-D nickel in MS65 for $0.25. Over 74 million were struck. Are the visibility of fully struck steps really worth $1,199.75 for the same coin in a lower grade?
Common sense tells me to buy a slightly lower grade and pocket the 99% difference to spend on other coins. I can either get all Jefferson nickels in uncirculated and proof condition to fill my Dansco or get one 1955-D in MS64 FS. Since the latter choice is the same price as the former, it leads me to believe that many collectors would choose the latter.
Common sense must be more than scarce. It must be rare.
Has the world gone crazy? Does anyone else think this strange? I can go to my local bank and get an entire roll of 2002 nickels for $2.00. I suspect I would not find an MS66 FS in it. So what? What is wrong with an MS65 or even an MS64? Is it reasonable for a collector to spend $97.95 more for one in a little better condition than one he can get from almost any bank?
I can look through as many rolls of nickels as I like and I will never find a proof 1942 nickel in the lot. That gives it value to me. Grade is only one component of pricing. Does it really account for 99% of a coin's value? Date, mintmark, type, and variety, metallic composition also influence pricing, so a 1909-S VDB cent sells for more than a 1909 cent. I may find a low grade 1909 cent in a junk box, but the chances of finding a 1909-S VDB in any grade for the same price are miniscule. I cannot fill the hole in my album with an inexpensive grade because they are expensive in all grades.
It gets worse. The same price list shows a 1955-D nickel in PCGS MS64 FS for $1,200. My Red Book shows a 1955-D nickel in MS65 for $0.25. Over 74 million were struck. Are the visibility of fully struck steps really worth $1,199.75 for the same coin in a lower grade?
Common sense tells me to buy a slightly lower grade and pocket the 99% difference to spend on other coins. I can either get all Jefferson nickels in uncirculated and proof condition to fill my Dansco or get one 1955-D in MS64 FS. Since the latter choice is the same price as the former, it leads me to believe that many collectors would choose the latter.
Common sense must be more than scarce. It must be rare.
"Drinking has ruined my life-- I'm 31 years old!" (just kidding)
0
Comments
Frank
Some like their homes built out of brick (not wood), Their cars with V8's, not slant sixes, their clothes tailored out of wool and cotton, not synthetics, their food from restaurants with linen, not super-sized paper bags, and their coins of the Classic variety, not 7/11 change-back-for-your-Slurpee, Moderns.
peacockcoins
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
and common sence and the coin game are totally diametrically apposed
i have seen it since the late 1960's and as with all things in a few short years there will be a great wailing and nashing of teeth
buy the coin not the holder
and ask yourself before you buy a coin
1 what is this coin worth out of the holder?
2 only buy coins with money you can afford to lose
3 is the money i am thinking of spending on this coin better off left folded in my pocket?
4 what type of value does this coin give to me the buyer?
sincerely michael
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and 2002-P roosevelt dimes in PCGS MS68 are under $20
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while no nickels showed up in search, of all the completed PCGS MS66's only one closed above $10 ($10.50 to be exact)
2002-P PCGS MS66 completed
I won't waste $10 submitting a 2002 anything in MS66, to be honest
i think too many people get caught up in "market hype"...high grades,monster toning,
low populations,etc.,etc...and literally forget that the hobby of collecting coins should be giving one some joy of some kind,another reason to "wake up on the other side of the ground" tomorrow...
Whether one collector is trying to put together a set of circulated wheaties made from 1940 to 1958 (hey,i might find one of those '55 double dies in that unsearched bag i just bought)and another a high-grade type set of early American gold (don't you know how hard these are to find?i've got plenty of money but the coins i want to buy for my collection are just not to be found) does not change the fact that there should be,whatever your interest and pocket book allows,in my a opinion,a basic reason for the person to collect in the first place...
and that reason is...the joy of it...whatever that joy is...discover the joy of the hobby not what you think everyone else enjoys...
i make these remarks realizing that some collectors probably do enjoy "the quest for the perfect coin"...some collectors probably do enjoy "monster toning" on their coins...some collectors probably do truly enjoy owning coins with "low populations"...
if you can afford it,do it...but remember this...no one's collection,no matter how humble,deserves to be berated...one reason for my staying on these boards as long as i have is that i have the sense that the collectors who post here understand this...and you know,that's a very good thing...
just don't be whining after you've upgraded your 2002 nickel to MS67 FS and are trying to sell to the dealer you bought from that 2002 nickel in PCGS MS66 FS that you paid $98 for and you hear,"i give you $30."...
feel the joy?...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
coins for his collection wherever they can be found. A real coin collector doesn't have
some time that after which all coins are worthless tash, and perhaps most importantly,
a real coin collector doesn't slam other people or their coins for being real collectors.
<< <i>what is this coin worth out of the holder? >>
There are times when that is well worth thinking about.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Own opinion - R100
To each his own. If you really enjoy what you are collecting and buying, GREAT, but most of the time I get the feeling that there is a profit motive behind what is being purchased and that's where a lot of people may get themselves into trouble.
Joe.
collecting preferences. Indeed, I don't even feel compelled to have an opinion on ev-
erything. This is more than common courtesy, it is common sense.
I think it is great when I see people with collecting hobbies. Whether it's pig-shaped cookie jars, circulated wheaties, MS69 state quarters, or early proof gold. As long as it is for the joy and they do so for themselves..not as a fad. Fad's create disappointment....disappointment kills joy.
I didn't take this thread to be a "slam" against modern collecting or registry activities. I read the thread to be an honest expression of his concern for those that are collecting such coins. I got the impression that he was trying to make sure those new to the hobby had his perspective. I think it ought to be okay on this forum to express a negative opinion about different happenings in the hobby....as long as it is done in a non-aggressive, non-personalized manner. Which, in my opinion; this thread was in a non-aggressive manner. Subjective yes. Wrong...quite possibly. But it was non-aggressive and non-personalized.
Remember, that unless you are a dealer, collecting is about the joy and pride you get from the hobby. It would be shame to see many of the new collectors today not experience a lifetime of joy from the hobby because the particular series that have chosen to collect goes into a nosedive for a few decades. If they realize this is a possibility, then they won't lose their original joy if it were to happen.
Not to say it is going to happen...but the consistent warnings of a number of folks that have been in the hobby for many years would indicate that it is at least a possibility that should be considered when thinking about what could destroy the joy you get out of the hobby.
Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!!!
One is free to collect whatever he or she wants. One is also free to ignore the advice of those who have been collectors for many years. Maybe this quality over rarity phenomenon is a permanent fixture in the coin market. Maybe one can have mintages in the billions and find coins that are unusually but only marginally better than some of the their counterparts that sell for huge premiums. Maybe the observation that after 30 years, there are few buyers for once popular coins from the 1970s like the 1973-S Ike, 1975-S Proof cent and 1970-D Kennedy half dollar. Maybe the warnings about paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a coin in the “right” holder that would be worth a small fraction of that price if the same coin were raw are wrong.
Or… maybe the advice has some merit.
Before you reject what old timers say, look at whose voices are raised the highest to attack their views and sometimes to attack them personally. If you do that I think you will find that these defenders are mostly those who have a financial stake in defending their turf.
And BTW, given the current grading standards for older Proof coins, you might be disappointed in the quality of a slabbed 1942 Type I nickel in PR-66. I know that I am usually disappointed in the quality of most of the 1942 Type II nickels that I see in slabbed PR-66. Still given that David Lawrence RC is offering the coin, I would venture to say that it is probably pretty nice.
So it will be with the high grade moderns. They're being hyped to prices almost beyond belief, and those that have them when the balloon bursts, are going to be very sad indeed.
Ray
Common sense tells me to buy a slightly lower grade and pocket the 99% difference to spend on other coins. I can either get all Jefferson nickels in uncirculated and proof condition to fill my Dansco or get one 1955-D in MS64 FS. Since the latter choice is the same price as the former, it leads me to believe that many collectors would choose the latter.
Common sense must be more than scarce. It must be rare.
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In my opinion, there is no question that a 1955D MS64FS is worth significantly more than a 1942 proof type 1 nickel. Here's why
The 1942 proof is common coin. I have been collecting Jeffersons for over 25 years and attended numerous coin shows. Almost every show has 1942 proofs available, many in grades PF64 and higher. In my opinion you just can't look at mintage #s. While only 29,000 1942 proofs were minted, many are readily available and over 2000 certified by PCGS alone.
The 1955D has a mintage of 74 million. I have located 1 in full steps in 25 years. This is a scarce coin in full steps with only 16 in total graded by PCGS. Many 1955D have poor strikes and appearance. Full steps are extremely difficult to locate. Are there more out there not found yet - yes. If you find one in MS65FS I'll pay more than $1200.
Full step collecting has been around for 25+ years. Is it a fad? I don't think so. Will prices continue to rise? Maybe, maybe not.
Common sense tells this collector to collect full strike and full step Jeffersons.
My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)
My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
If I shopped for a house and came to a development with identical houses, I would be shocked to find one priced $100,000 more than the others just because the only difference were slightly better paving stones. I would not buy a new car for twice the price as the same model next to it just because it had a few more chrome accents not readily apparent except upon close inspection.
If the new common sense among collectors is to spend 1,000 times the price for a common Jefferson nickel because of the visibility of a few more steps on the reverse upon close inspection, I prefer to remain obsolete and crazy. I am not slamming anyone, as some suggest. I am only pointing out that I feel like Rip Van Winkle and have walked into a completely changed world.
Not to take the "contrarian view", but I will pay $500 each (sight-seen) to the first (2) collectors that upgrade their 2002(d) nickels to PCGS-MS67FS and sell them to me before the end of this year (next year, my price changes, higher or lower). Or, just buy a couple 2002(d) rolls of nickels and make the coins that way - I don't really care how they are made. I just need one for a collector I am helping and one to keep for myself. PM me after the PCGS grading report comes through
Wondercoin.
For someone that buys and sells coins, this is a reasonable approach to take. But, to someone who isn't "in and out" timing may, or may not, be on their side. If you pay $500 to have a 67FS as a dealer, especially with a list of buyers, your downside is limited. On the other hand, if you're the buyer or speculator, your downside could be considerable, unless the pops hold.
There is a thread on the Registry Forum talking about a MS68 State Quarter that was made from a bank roll. They're still out there...
There is a thread on the Registry Forum talking about a MS68 State Quarter that was made from a bank roll. They're still out there... "
DAM: You are correct, and I thought I did state that I only needed 1 for a collector and 1 to keep myself.
Anyway, "EYE" has worked through bags, rolls and mint sets of state quarters for years now. I really respect his work. It is tedious work - work I would not want to do. And, of course, there are good coins in rolls. I have no doubt a collector might find my (2) needed nickels in these same rolls.
I was reading in the Santa Clara auction catalog about the 1936(d) Wash quarter in higher grades of Mint State. Of course, in top grade MS67 the coins are few and far apart. Heritage pointed out that collectors of that day were preoccupied with other things in 1936, like buying up the neat new Silver Commems. Few collectors cared about that "modern" 1936(d) quarter. Today, it is a "classic rarity" in superb gem grade. As serious collectors, let's at least agree that it is possible that certain modern coins of our time may be the "classic rarities" of tomorrow. For example, IMHO, a 1969(s) nickel in true gem FS is a "classic rarity" right now, whether most collectors know it or not (and, incidently, I have never seen one).
In my opinion, there is no question that a 1955D MS64FS is worth significantly more than a 1942 proof type 1 nickel. Here's why
The 1942 proof is common coin. I have been collecting Jeffersons for over 25 years and attended numerous coin shows. Almost every show has 1942 proofs available, many in grades PF64 and higher. In my opinion you just can't look at mintage #s. While only 29,000 1942 proofs were minted, many are readily available and over 2000 certified by PCGS alone.
The 1955D has a mintage of 74 million. I have located 1 in full steps in 25 years. This is a scarce coin in full steps with only 16 in total graded by PCGS. Many 1955D have poor strikes and appearance. Full steps are extremely difficult to locate. Are there more out there not found yet - yes. If you find one in MS65FS I'll pay more than $1200.
Hold on here! The 1942 proof is MORE COMMON than a 1955-D? Were 1955-D's melted or something? Perhaps they're scarcer with full steps, but that is not the same thing as saying they're scarcer overall. Proofs are made to stay looking nice as collector coins and business strikes are meant to circulate (except for mint set pieces). We all understand that. But a 1942 in PF-65 is scarcer than a 1955-D in MS-65. If MS-65's are still a quarter each (even if they're $1.50 each), the MS-64 FB going for $1,200 does seem like an incredible price jump. If someone wants to pay that much for it, that's fine by me. It seems like it only makes sense to a special group with deep pockets, though.
Obscurum per obscurius
That is a hefty premium to pay for strike quality but is no different than some of the DMPL price jumps in Morgan dollars or a '45 merc w/full bands.
peacockcoins
<< <i>1 what is this coin worth out of the holder? >>
Michael's quote here is listed as his #1 as it should be. I understand CladKing's frustration BUT if a modern coin (or "classic") is worth OUT of the holder the same as IN the holder there shouldn't be any problem, right? Of course, if someone wants to pay a 30X premium because of a small difference in grade that would NOT be worth it out of the holder, it is their business. It's just not something that makes a lot of sense to me.
I choose to use common sense and NOT pay huge premiums. I don't give a damn if it's a "classic" or a "modern". It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The reason I think the newer coinage gets this rap is because many of the huge premiums (whether for a grade jump or some designation) we see tend to be in the newer coinage. I'm sure Morgan's have their price jumps (due to popularity) but usually you find it in 20th century coins.
jom
roof, will we see a replay of this with high priced common coins?
- Charlie B -
My website
I would change the term to risk/ reward ratio.
Conditional rarities of common coins at the present time have high ratios IMHO.
Risk is not always analyzed carefully. Rewards are incremental in times of speculation. Hope and greed are the heartbeats of speculation. The trip down is equal in distance to the height. I don't go to Las Vegas either but the hotels are full. Figure it?
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
Yea, verily. I'd love to be able to go down to the bank and pick up a roll of trade dollars in any grade for $20, but it ain't gonna happen.
What's wrong with collecting modern coins from rolls? I've found some really nice looking ones for my daughter's coin folders, but modern collectors look at them condescendingly unless they're in a slab with low pops. Showing someone your beautiful 2001-D dime in MS-66 gets the same reaction as showing up to the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance in a rusted 1977 AMC Gremlin.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>
I didn't take this thread to be a "slam" against modern collecting or registry activities. I read the thread to be an honest expression of his concern for those that are collecting such coins. I got the impression that he was trying to make sure those new to the hobby had his perspective. I think it ought to be okay on this forum to express a negative opinion about different happenings in the hobby....as long as it is done in a non-aggressive, non-personalized manner. Which, in my opinion; this thread was in a non-aggressive manner. Subjective yes. Wrong...quite possibly. But it was non-aggressive and non-personalized. >>
I might almost agree that the thread was non-aggressive and non-personal if it were
not for the startling regularity with which this modern bashing appears. Despite this it
seems as though being told I have no common sense is one of the nicest things the
modern bashers have said about me. Yet I've never said anything derogatory about
them. Yes, recently I have implied that some of these people may have issues unrelated
to moderns, but how else to explain a preoccupation with trying to destroy a segment of
the hobby?
<< <i>Not to say it is going to happen...but the consistent warnings of a number of folks that have been in the hobby for many years would indicate that it is at least a possibility that should be considered when thinking about what could destroy the joy you get out of the hobby.
>>
I and many other of the modern collectors have been in this hobby for very many years.
I have seen many trends and fads come and go. I believe I can tell them apart with the
best of them. Forty six years is not a long time to collect coins to some of our more sea-
soned members, but I'm not exactly "wet behind the ears".
<< <i>It's not a matter of "slamming;" it's a matter of warning. >>
Nearly 1,000 posts and about half of them are warnings. How about building
something up instead of trying to tear something down?
<< <i>Before you reject what old timers say, look at whose voices are raised the highest to attack their views and sometimes to attack them personally. If you do that I think you will find that these defenders are mostly those who have a financial stake in defending their turf.
>>
There are virtually no attacks on the warners. But day after day there are attacks
both subtle and overt on anyone who would dare to discuss anything about moderns
on these boards. There are virtually no attacks on the coins collected by these old
timers either. The one I've seen was in jest. As for shrill voices it may be because
these people are tired of winning every battle and having to fight the same ones repeatedly.
I believe I started collecting just a few months before our most prolific basher.
I believe these coins are the best deal in the coin market. What am I expected to buy.
Certainly I have a stake in these coins and have never attempted in the least to keep
this secret. What kind of coins in Billjones buying.
<< <i>I do not begrudge anyone for collecting what he will. My point is not to say that other collectors must collect as I do. Instead, I only wished to point out that the great price increase for a very minor gain in grade or one component of a grade (such as the FS example) is a marvel to behold. The fact that the price increase is so large suggests to me that many people are willing to pay for the smallgrade increase. If it were only a matter of a few specialists looking for the perfect set, then the price increase would be minimal and the grading services would not bother with the FS label.
If I shopped for a house and came to a development with identical houses, I would be shocked to find one priced $100,000 more than the others just because the only difference were slightly better paving stones. I would not buy a new car for twice the price as the same model next to it just because it had a few more chrome accents not readily apparent except upon close inspection.
If the new common sense among collectors is to spend 1,000 times the price for a common Jefferson nickel because of the visibility of a few more steps on the reverse upon close inspection, I prefer to remain obsolete and crazy. I am not slamming anyone, as some suggest. I am only pointing out that I feel like Rip Van Winkle and have walked into a completely changed world. >>
Please take a look at some of these coins. There is a huge diffrence in quality between
the different grades. Many of these coins are not only rare in the highest grades, but they
are rare in the just missed grades also. I had a thread up recently where I opine that some
moderns may not even exist in the just missed grades.
There are many trends which have come together to create this situation which many old
timers find so incomprehensible. There is the admonition which has been so commnplace
for so many years to "buy the best you can afford". The huge growth of the US economy
has caused dramatically increased coin production. This has had two effects; one to make
these coins so common as to lead the collectors of the time to ignore them causing very low
survival rates. It has also caused people to look for other ways to differentiate common coins
from rarities. It's small wonder people are colecting these coins which were ignored for so
very many years and especially desiring the errors, varieties, and high grade specimens.
There is no reason anyone should feel compelled to collect these coins. Even though the
trend is real people don't need to get in on every new thing that comes along. The desirable
old coins will still be around when today's newbies decide the old coins are cool. It seems ev-
ery one can have fun in this hobby and it's more than big enough for all.
It seems like it only makes sense to a special group with deep pockets, though. >>
Yes, but let's not lose sight of the fact that paying a million dollars for an 1804 with
less than four dollars worth of silver in it also only makes sense to a small group(coin collectors)
with deep pockets.
<< <i>how did I know cladking was going to be all over this thread? >>
About half my posts are trying to defend moderns.
<< <i>
I choose to use common sense and NOT pay huge premiums. I don't give a damn if it's a "classic" or a "modern". It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The reason I think the newer coinage gets this rap is because many of the huge premiums (whether for a grade jump or some designation) we see tend to be in the newer coinage. I'm sure Morgan's have their price jumps (due to popularity) but usually you find it in 20th century coins.
jom >>
Much of the reason that moderns have such a large disparity in price between being
slabbed and raw is that there is a huge drop off in populations as you go up the
grading scale. This doesn't show up much in the pop reports because unlike the classics
it still doesn't pay to slab the lower grades. Also many modern collectors are relative
newcomers to the hobby and do not feel confident in their grading skills. No doubt, too,
the registry has an effect in this regard.
<< <i>Please take a look at some of these coins. There is a huge diffrence in quality between the different grades. >>
I disagree that there is a huge difference between adjacent MS grades, even two points. A difference, yes. But it's not huge IMO. I don't think a 67 makes a 65 look like crap.
<< <i>It seems every one can have fun in this hobby and it's more than big enough for all. >>
Absolutely agree with you!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>We all saw what happended to tech stocks after prices went through the
roof, will we see a replay of this with high priced common coins?
- Charlie B - >>
Moderns were almost completely ignored for many years. Now with the sudden surge
in interest the prices are responding. This is not occuring only at the high end of the
spectrum but also in the "more common" lower grade coins. An MS-60 roll of 1991-D
Kennedys has gone from about twenty dollars to seventy dollars in the last 18 months.
Many other modern rolls are up many fold in the last few years. The demand is already
beginning to swamp the supply on many of these. This is quite remarkable when you
consider just how small this demand still is. Many factors have converged to get us to
this point. There is a likelyhood that prices will get ahead of themselves eventually and
when demand quits growing there would be a price collapse.
<< <i>It seems common sense is not only not common but if it impinges on your own beliefs or bias it is rejected.
>>
Those who lack common sense most likely do not have the opportunity to reject it.
Gee, you could have fooled me, Cladking. Perhaps I'm the one you covered by using the word "virtually."
Every time I post something on this subject, your antennae fly up like a flock of ducks after a shotgun blast. In fact there have been times when you have followed me around like an attack dog from site to site biting at my heals.
Let’s cut to the quick. If you sold one of your high grade PCGS coins for say $2,000, and the buyer cracked it out of the case, would you buy back the same coin raw for $500? If the answer is “No” then there is no further need for discussion. If the buyer offered you same coin in the case for $1,000, would you buy it? These are the acid test questions.
The answer for every honest dealer in “classic coins” on both counts would be a resounding “Yes!” because the potential for making “a killing” on the resale would be huge. The same cannot be said for modern coins when “slab grade roulette” plays a major role.
I don’t have a problem with experienced people collecting these coins. I collect Proof sets and modern commemorative coins myself and have taken “paper losses” on them as a result. I do have a problem with watching new coin collectors buy this stuff at wildly inflated prices with the idea that a huge segment of the numismatic community agrees that they are getting a fair value. A huge segment of the numismatic community DOES NOT think they are getting a fair value. They think that they are getting the shaft.
I think you would be better off to ignore me. Your protests only give me more credibility.
<< <i>I can't buy Morgans or Walking Liberty halves from the bank or mint. Buying moderns at face or near face value seems like very little risk to me.
Yea, verily. I'd love to be able to go down to the bank and pick up a roll of trade dollars in any grade for $20, but it ain't gonna happen.
What's wrong with collecting modern coins from rolls? I've found some really nice looking ones for my daughter's coin folders, but modern collectors look at them condescendingly unless they're in a slab with low pops. Showing someone your beautiful 2001-D dime in MS-66 gets the same reaction as showing up to the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance in a rusted 1977 AMC Gremlin. >>
Some of the best moderns are in circulation!
<< <i>There are virtually no attacks on the warners.
Gee, you could have fooled me, Cladking. Perhaps I'm the one you covered by using the word "virtually."
Every time I post something on this subject, your antennae fly up like a flock of ducks after a shotgun blast. In fact there have been times when you have followed me around like an attack dog from site to site biting at my heals.
>>
Thankyou for noticing. I admit I take your attacks a little more personally than I should
or most of the others so perhaps I tend to reply in kind. I'll have to try to stop that.
I do not yet retail any moderns because the price isn't right yet and the price guides are
too far out of date. Krause for instance in the new guide lists a 1983-P quarter in MS-60
for five dollars! The wholesale price is actually $675 per roll. That's nearly $17! At what
price is one to retail such a coin. If sold for twenty dollars some buyers would feel they
were taken advantage of. This coin is likely to be substantially higher than $17 soon any-
way.
<< <i>I disagree that there is a huge difference between adjacent MS grades, even two points. A difference, yes. But it's not huge IMO. I don't think a 67 makes a 65 look like crap. >>
Here here! I don't believe it is ANY different with moderns than with a classic.
CladKing, in a way, pointed to the problem: There are MANY newer collectors who collect the more recent issues. I believe this DOES effect the sensibility of the pricing on some of these coins. Actually, what happens is that these collectors, being new, depend more on the services than a collector who has been around a while. Do you really think anyone will pay the same huge premium if the coin is taken out and sold raw? If so, who's going to pay it? The newbie who only trusts PCGS?? No friggen way...hence the price goes down.
jom
thanks for the warnings and feel better knowing about my lack of common sense.
I for one will continue collecting what I like. There are many examples where people are paying to much for
moderns. I've seen people pay to much for classics.
I bet my Kennedy set will be worth what I paid for it today, in 10 years in 20 years.
even if it isn't, I still have a nice collection of super gem Kennedies.
(65s are nice but 66/67 are nicer and if you learn the series you can tell the difference)
I would like to remind everyone that seated, barber, walkers, Franklins were all modern coins at one time.
there were no grading services back then and few people really went out looking for the best.
Is it wrong that people like the current series and are willing to pay for fine examples.
Isn't that what classic collectors do.
Moderns are a frontier. there are no stable markets. Some coins such as post 77 proofs are plentiful.
other coins like the ah Kennedies or the 1966sms no FG Kennedies may be more valued in the future.
Please go out to the bank and turn some of those nickels into PCGS MS67FS nickels.
if it is as easy as you think you should make a large profit.
I DO have problems with coins that carry price tags in the hundreds and thousands of dollars with mintages that are in the millions and billions. I do have problems with "one way" markets (can buy them for big bucks, but can't resell them for a commenserate amount) I prefer substance to sizzle. If you are saying that some nice looking, well struck Mint State modern coins might be worth $25 to $35 retail I won't argue with you. I won't be buying them, but so long as people aren't buying them by the roll or bag the room for getting hurt is limited.
I would like to remind everyone that seated, barber, walkers, Franklins were all modern coins at one time.
Quite true, but here is the big difference. Investors and collectors lost a TON OF MONEY on late date walkers and all the Franklins. More than 20 years ago those coins sold for FAR more than they do now. Why? There is a huge supply of them and the markets could be manipulated justed as they are today IMO.
Early Walkers and Barber coins are a bit different when it comes to supply. Those coins got killed during the Great Depression and a lot of the Mint State pieces went to heaven when their owners had to spend them to eat. Therefore, the game playing is not as bad although it is possible.
Can classic coins be overpriced? Sure they can, and one needs to track the market to see where they are, BUT the supply is finite and as you go back it time the supply of coins gets smaller and smaller barring hoards. That's why I have always felt more comfortable with high quality coins from the 1793 to 1807 era. Those are the true blue chips of U.S. numismatics.
I don't think that anyone claimed MS-67 FS nickels are plentiful in rolls. The concept is that there are many avaiable in MS-65 for face value that look really good and would be worth the new collectors' time to save.
there were no grading services back then and few people really went out looking for the best.
Is it wrong that people like the current series and are willing to pay for fine examples.
Isn't that what classic collectors do.
If you think collectors in the old days looked for crappy coins, I think your view of the past is tainted. People did pay for better condition coins, but they paid commensurate with the improvement in the grade. If the coin looked a little better, they only paid a little more for it.
Some collectors today apparently think an MS-64 FS nickel is 5,000 times better that an MS-64 nickel of the same date and mintmark without the FS designation. Those who've been burned by supergrade Morgans in 1981 probably don't, though.
Obscurum per obscurius
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
HA! Another elitist post disguised as a defense of the little guy. Are you saying that those of us who collect MS-65 moderns are all "cheap" just because we don't pay 5,000 times face value for an FS designation and a piece of plastic?! How dare you!
Obscurum per obscurius