Images/discussion - a truly "RD" Braided 1/2c

coinguy1

The coin linked below resides in a PCGS MS65RD holder and is an example of a Braided Hair Half Cent which is truly red ("RD"). Many so-called "RD" specimens display varying degrees of mellowing and are not truly 'RD". Additionally, most of those "RD" ones suffer from noticeable carbon spotting and/or fingerprinting. This one is about as "RD" as you will ever see. That is why I chose it as a discussion piece/example. I see perhaps two coins a year of this type/color designation and quality.

PCGS has certified only 29 MS65RD's of all dates of this type, as of the publication of their October 2002 Population Report. None have been graded higher. Only 270 RD's of all dates and grades combined have been attributed, compared to 632 red/brown's "RB's" and 1826 brown's "BN's".

Another aspect of this coin which I would like to call attention to, is the weakness of and or missing denticles (the tooth-like projections extending from the rim of a coin toward the center) about the borders - on the obverse, the denticles are well defined only at approximately 11:00 to 1:00 (from above stars 6-8 if you start with the lower left star and go clockwise). On the reverse, they are best seen form approximately 10:00 to 12:00 and from 3:00 to 6:00. Such weakness of the denticles on a coin of this type is not particularly unusual but it is still not a plus, either!

There are a few small scattered stained areas on each side, which look better or worse, depending upon how the coin is tilted and what type of light source is being used to examine it. And, while nicely struck overall, there is some weakness in strike on stars 3 and 10-13, in particular.

I hope that this is not a disappointment to those of you who encouraged me to do this - if so, I apologize. If not, I will try to do this about once a week and look for coins with something different/unusual/interesting to post and discuss.




A truly "RD" Braided Hair 1/2c

nwcs

Wow, it must be awesome to look at in person. How flashy is it?

nwcs

How much does something like that, being such a small population, go for?

FC57Coins

Mark - On the history side of the coin it's interesting to note that the "slanted" 5's of that period were, as I understand it, attributed to Longacre's apprentices who apparently used the wrong punch on both cent and half cent dies. Maybe some of our copper friends can verify or negate this story - but I think it's kinda neat how something like this can open a window into the history of the times. Great picture and great coin!

Frank

Clankeye

Mark--
I guess the rather simple question that comes to my mind is how do you think a rather large copper coin from 1855 actually stayed in that state of preservation? Would it have been stored a particular way you know of? It seems so unlikely to me, that even with great care, these coins could remain RD like that. Any speculation? Just curious.

Carl

crito

most people are convinced there's little chance a silver coin can stay "white" for that period of time (due in large part to the ramblings of Q. David Bowers)... well, if so, there's NO chance a copper coin could stay red that long. must be cleaned

mdwoods

Hi Mark. That coin is 100 years older than myself. What a nice present it would make for me. I'll send my address upon confirmation of acceptance of my idea. I collected Large cents for a while. I never did have a RD one, but I had a few RBs. I love the old coppers, they are what renewed my interest in coin collecting back in the mid 90s. Thanks for the link. That is a very nice coin. mdwoods

MacCoin

that is to awesome!! the half cent is way under rated. I would like to see a nice high grade pre 08 half cent. in my openion the half cent bust is one of the prettiest coin there is. but I never seen a true RD half cent untill now.
Thanx and keep up the good work.

MrKelso

<< <i>Mark - On the history side of the coin it's interesting to note that the "slanted" 5's of that period were, as I understand it, attributed to Longacre's apprentices who apparently used the wrong punch on both cent and half cent dies. Maybe some of our copper friends can verify or negate this story - but I think it's kinda neat how something like this can open a window into the history of the times. Great picture and great coin!

Frank >>



It is a remarkable looking Coin and my eye's were attracted right to the fives at first glance.

greghansen

Mark,

Striking coin. I've got an PCGS MS65 RD from the same year, but it has the carbon spotting you refer to. If I can figure out how to do it, I may try to post a scan of mine so folks can see some of the imperfections you describe, even though the coins carries the same technical grade. Then to finish the education, maybe someone can tell us (because I certainly don't know) what kind of premium the 'true' RD large cents carry over the 'impaired' RD variety.

Greg Hansen
Melbourne, FL

66Tbird

Very nice, good to have a little idea what to look for concerning strike. A large cent in RD was my first major purchase and it still makes me smile. On a side note,, is the slanted 5 the same one(or style) used on some of the 1856 $3 gold pieces?

RLinn

Mark, both Clankeye and Crito raise the issue of how such a coin can retain its red appearance for almost a century and a half. I am sure it is related to storage which is related to ownership. Can you share any details about those that have owned the coin over the years. I don't mean for you to disclose names but if such a coin resided in a private collection in the Sahara Desert for the last 70 years it might shed some light.

tjkillian

That is one nice half cent. I've never seen one in full red. On a coin like that, does the fact that the denticles are a little weak have much effect on the desirability of it?

Tom

Elcontador

This coin has "made the rounds" of the various auctions. Yes, it is one of the few genuinely red Early Coppers (the grading services seem to slab coins with 80% or more RD as full RD these days). Mark is correct re this is better than most because it isn't spotted, nor does it have unattractive changes in color.

1855 is a particularly bad year for Large & Half Cents re strike, though Unc. copper of this year is readily available. I have never seen an 1855 Large or Half Cent in Unc. which was fully struck. If you want a more attractively struck Unc. Half Cent, you'll have better luck with an 1853, assuming you can find one.

You commonly see weak denticles and stars for many late date Large & Half Cents. They are not downgraded for this feature. For many dates, this kind of strike is the norm. I have an 1853 MS 65 BN Large Cent with a similar strike.

Expect strong centers & lots of luster in a 5 struck like this one. From what I've seen, the services will allow several noticeable carbon spots or a few more flecks in a 65 grade. Personally, I won't buy a coin with a fingerprint, irrespective of its grade (but that's just me).

coinguy1

nwcs - it looks about the same in person as it does in the images - no more or less flashy. It is in the mid to upper $4000 range, price-wise.

Frank - I vaguely recall having heard what you did about the slanting 5's but am not certain. Like you, I hope someone will jump in and let us know!

Carl and RLinn, in answer to your questions - I have no way of knowing precisely how this coin or other "RD" copper has survived for so long in that state of preservation. But, unlike crito, I don't believe that such coins must have been "cleaned".

If you consider all that were minted (roughly 544,000 business strikes of this type) and how few survive in "RD" (386 in all dates and grades between PCGS and NGC combined, not counting an unknown number of resubmissions), we're talking about a "RD" survival rate of roughly .0007%. Those numbers illustrate how unlikely it is for such a coin to remain
RD".

RLinn- I bought the coin from another dealer and unfortunately, know nothing of its prior history.

mdwoods - Coincidentally, I was seriously considering giving the coin to you as a present. However, I was afraid that if I did that and you said something nice about me it wouldn't look good - sorry.

MacCoin - I like the Draped Bust type that you mentioned, too. I have handled 1 or 2 MS65RB's of that type, almost bought an MS66RB once and have seen a few "RD" ones, but not above MS64 grade.

Greg - in reply to your question about a premium for a superior "RD" Large cent - personally, I would figure an extra nice one at roughly a 20% to 25% premium.

66Tbird - sorry, I don't know about the slanted 5's on the $3 pieces - hopefully someone will read this thread and be able to answer your question.

Tom - the weak denticles are not uncommon for the type. I'd rather they be stronger but it's an imperfection I can certainly live with in this case.

mr1931S

Is "red" in the half and large cents a different shade of "red" than the small coppers that followed?

My impression of the half cent shown is that the exhibited "red" is indeed mellow compared to say,the "red" of an indian cent from the '70's and '80's...

crito

But, unlike crito, I don't believe that such coins must have been "cleaned".

I didn't say that. I said if you believe Bowers that 99.9% of all white Morgans have been dipped, it follows that a red copper coin of that age has been chemically "cleaned" also. Furthermore, NGC doesn't guarantee copper for a reason, it's much more susceptible than silver to environmental damage. So the odds for that coin must be closer to 99.99%. which is about the same as the typical DNA test. Or maybe Bowers is wrong. Take your pick.

BTW, I usually get flamed around here for saying untoned coins look original. So this is nice for a change hehe

coinguy1

crito - you said "most people are convinced there's little chance a silver coin can stay "white" for that period of time (due in large part to the ramblings of Q. David Bowers)... well, if so, there's NO chance a copper coin could stay red that long. must be cleaned "

Those are your words above, not merely my slant on them . Sounds to me like you are of the opinion that it must have been cleaned. But, whatever your opinion, you have the right to it.

elcontador - thank you for adding your experience to this thread and making it more informative.

mr1874 - you observed "Is "red" in the half and large cents a different shade of "red" than the small coppers that followed?

My impression of the half cent shown is that the exhibited "red" is indeed mellow compared to say,the "red" of an indian cent from the '70's and '80's... "

"Red" color for half cents and large cents can vary slightly from year to year and is often different from that seen on Indian cents. Additionally, many different Indian cent issues display various shades of "RD", peculiar to given years. Certain dates can be found with much more "red" than others, while some are more golden or tan in color, for example.

crito

your quote is correct, sorry if you're still misinterpreting my statement, the "well, if so" must be confusing. The point is, it's crazy to think all white Morgan have been dipped but this coin could be original. Hope that was clear.

Trime

Mark,
Outstanding start to your picture series . Had a number of good points to make. These could serve as a starting point for lots of discussion about a coin. I am sure that many of the forum members woold see or know different things about the specific coin the specific specimen etc. points. Some would be qualitative other technical in nature.
I have an imaging question. When the picture showed up on my screen it had a box with enlarging arrows . Was that the result of your transmission or the software of CU?

coinguy1

crito, my apologies if I misunderstood you.

trime, it is my hope that some other forum members will be able to add their perspectives too. I don't have an answer for you regarding your imaging question - I have no idea how you ended up with the arrows enlargenment feature you mentioned.

shirohniichan

Since I have so little background in copper, I'd be scared to buy an RD coin that old. I can still admire it, though. Thanks for sharing

toothpuller

Impressive dialogue and an impressive coin. Thanks coinguy.

shylock

Beautiful ½ cent Mark, I'm struck as much by the lack of spots as the solid color. Also found your comments informative, as well as Elcontador's who I know looks at a lot of these. I've always wondered why almost all suffer from mushy denticles to some extent.

Of the 20 other 1855 PCGS 65RDs, here are 4 to compare it to. The Walser example from B&M also has great color, though slightly more obvious spotting. The others show varying degrees of brown toning as well as spotting:

example 1
example 2
example 3
example 4

This really nice PCGS 64RD was recently sold by B&M.

shylock

On further review my example number 1 is the same as number 4 -- Goldberg took some dark images back then.

merz2

Don't let Spooly see that one. He'd go crazy.I have a dark chocolate brown 1854 in AU58,but that one makes me long for RED!

Wisconsin

Thanks Mark,

For sharing this great coin with us all. It would be great if we had more posts like this one. It is very nice to be able to look and learn. I hope you can find the time to do more like this, and maybe some of the others will do the same as well.

Jay

jmp81

I read somewhere that hoards of these were discovered in bank vaults during the 1933 bank holiday. So the existence of fully red pieces may reflect the storage in bank vaults. It seems that the 1854 and the 1857 are more difficult in red and in mint state.

coinguy1

Jackie, you said "I read somewhere that hoards of these were discovered in bank vaults during the 1933 bank holiday. So the existence of fully red pieces may reflect the storage in bank vaults. It seems that the 1854 and the 1857 are more difficult in red and in mint state.'

You are correct!

Walter Breen says that "Small hoards of spotty red coins turned up for 1851, 1854, 1855 and 1857. The 1854's comprised a bag of 1000 specimens, discovered in the early 1930's...;the 1855's may have numbered as many as 500. There were apparently only 100- 300 each of the rest. All have long since been dispersed."

EVillageProwler

On the history side of the coin it's interesting to note that the "slanted" 5's of that period were, as I understand it, attributed to Longacre's apprentices who apparently used the wrong punch on both cent and half cent dies.

The slanted 5's were also used on the MS Seated Dollars. I don't know about the PF specimens, or the other denominations. (I think not.)

EVP

jmp81

Coinguy1

That is a beautiful coin. Makes me wish I collected copper. Maybe I can sneak one into my type set
Also, Longacre actually favored the slanted 5. The upright 5 is attributed to the assistant. This may explain why the seated dollar that EVP was talking about also has a slanted 5.

merz2

I'm bringing this to the top so spooly can find it.

Elcontador

Thanks, Paul!

You showed everyone the images of the best struck 1855 Half Cents that one is going to see. You have yourself a "live one" if only 1/4 of the denticles blend into the rim & only have 3 or 4 soft stars. The 1855 Half (and Large) Cent are just like the 1945 P Dime re incomplete strikes (the latter re full bands).

bgman

Thanks for the informative post.

Randy

gemtone65

Mark: I think your coin is lovely, but your math needs a little polishing. The fraction of all graded coins termed red is 0.0007; however, the percent that are red is 0.07%

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Hi Mark - Was the color on the image of the half cent enhanced at all? Did you use a digital camera or a scan?

Clankeye - Many 1855 half cents were stored in a bank vault and were a byproduct of the Bank Holiday ordered by President Roosevelt in 1933.If you check the PCGS pop report there are more than 100 pieces graded ms 64 red or better

Crito - This is an original piece with original color.It has an original deep cherry red color and is IMO a wonderful type coin.

Mr 1874 - I feel this color is very similar to many cherry red indian cents from the 1870's and 80's

MacCoin - There are some pre 1808 half cents with full (more than 90%) red color.There are a few 1806's as well as a few 1800's.There are a couple of 1794's with more than 50% red and a 1796 that is almost full red

I have been assembling a collection of half cents for more than seven years and enjoy it greatly.

Stewart Blay

Spooly

For some reason I can't pull up the picture!

Gilbert

That is one outstanding specimen.

goyankeez

Nice first installment of (hopefully) a weekly series. Interesting to learn about the weak denticles of this date.

How does one store these old "RD" coppers so they don't turn brown over time. Anything different from other (silver) coins.

Thanks

coinguy1

gemtone - you are correct - thanks and sorry

Stewart - a digital camera was used to image it and to my knowledge and recollection (I had the coin with me in Santa Clara last week), the color is accurate. I think I might have seen that 1796 piece, while grading at NGC. Was it auctioned some time around 1996, give or take a year or two?

MICHAELDIXON

coinguy1,
Send the coin to my shipping address and upon arrival, I will tone that monster down for you.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Mark - Good memory !!!! The coin was slabbed ms 66 red/brown and sold on the phone at the Spinks auction for approximately $200,000 in 1996 or 1997.......WOW

Have you ever been at an auction where hard core half cent collectors are bidding? They make Lincoln cent collectors seem sane.

Good Thread

Stewart

coinguy1

Thanks, Stewart - of course there aren't too many half cents of that date that look like that! I was pretty sure I knew the coin but wasn't positive about the year I'd seen it. I think it had LOTS of RED, if I remember right!

I'm glad you like this thread. That means a lot to me, coming from a numismatist such as yourself. No, I haven't been in an auction room with a group of Half Cent enthusiasts - sounds scary!

shylock

Stewart -- Pinnacle uses the same camera I used for your Indian cents, and their pic looks almost identical to the Heritage image of the same coin (described as "extraordinarily lustrous" and "among the more attractive Coronet Half Cents" they had seen). In fact, the Pinnacle version shows the few light stains and flecks more clearly than Heritage.

A side note: ever see a coin in a newer PCGS slab rotated as much as this 1855 Large cent?

originalisbest

Crito, I believe you're doing Dave Bowers a disservice by reading his statements about dipped-white 1800's silver as though they apply to Morgans. I believe what he's written about the topic is that a "full mint bloom" 1800's silver coin may well have been dipped at some point in its life, EXCEPT in the case of MOST Morgans, most of which by and large have survived in "as they came" original brilliant condition due to storage in mint cloth bags until the great dispersal in the '60's. Except of course, for those which (sometimes) acquired amazing toning due to direct contact with the bags. Not that different a scenario than the unexpected discovery of the brilliant half cent bags during the bank holidays of the '30's, which I did know about. (Wouldn't every collector's dream be to have been the one who discovered them, lay them all out - and cherrypick the few finest of each date? )

If only we all could "ramble" as well as Bowers on a variety of numismatic topics, collecting might be a bit more fun.

On the other hand, if you want to realize how good coin collectors have it on their boards, go read thru the rantings of an individual named "delekkerste" over on the NGC boards, in the comic forum (don't be too scared, a little pop culture won't kill you.) Constantly full of himself for having predicted the crash of the Nasdaq (oh if only we could be so wise as to have listened to him) as well as how well-traveled he is (ah, the jet-set life) and the fact that he keeps company with European runway models (such a stud) he is a one-note johnny constantly screeching about the impending doom of comic values.

If he had been around for the "great market crash" of 1990 in coins (which I'm sure he'd have posthumously taken credit for predicting) I have no doubt that he'd have confidently forseen a time when NO one, some 10 years later, would ever collect a coin again for ANY reason. While I'm sure that some "investors" got burned so badly in '90 after having bought sure-fire, sight-unseen '65 Morgans for $300+, say, will never return - people of all stripes still collect coins. For some strange reason.

Suffice to say the guy is SO constantly SURE of his all-knowing CORRECTNESS and JUST AS IF NOT MORE sure that anyone who disagrees with him has their HEAD IN THE SAND, I do tire quickly of him.

If I had my way, I'd like for Gereg to tear him down a notch or so. But I doubt he'd have anything to do with the comic forums! Greg?


P.S. - sorry to change my post around mid-stream like that. James Joyce I'm not! But rather, wanted to vent a bit.


- Jon