Let's Stop This NGC to PCGS Crossover Rate Nonsense

Typetone

On related threads, others have lamented the low, 20%, PCGS crossover rate. I contend that this rate is adequate and maybe even too high. Here's why.

First, everybody agrees that truly superior NGC pieces should be crossed. It seems like that is the 20%.

Now, there is a group of people, including me, who feels PCGS grades to higher standards. We cite things like pop numbers and market prices. We believe that higher crossover rates could dilute the value of our coins. Yes, cross the superior pieces, but make sure they really make the grade, and keep the average pieces in their holders. Crossing the great coins could well increase the value of all PCGS pieces.

Now how about those who feel that on average NGC coins are as good as PCGS coins. Laura Sperber, for example, eloquently makes that case, and asserts that her clients buy both holders without bias, looking only at the coin itself. If this group is correct shouldn't we have more crossovers. My answer is no! Why are these folks even paying money trying to cross coins. If on average NGC coins are as good as PCGS coins, and if their clients are satisfied with them, then nothing is to be gained in a crossover. The fact that PCGS limits crossovers to 20% should be a non-event for this group. Increasing the crossover rate should not do anything for this group.

So, who wants to see more crossovers. I assert that it is those who buy NGC pieces for less money than a comparably graded PCGS piece. These folks want to cross the coin to a PCGS holder because they believe it will then have a higher market value and so make a profit. While, I do not begrudge them the game, they profit at our expense. Keeping demand constant, an increase in supply will lower the market price. I as an owner and buyer of PCGS pieces have nothing to be gained by the crossover artists profiting, and am likely a loser. For a $30 risk why should they have the potential for great profit at my expense. Instead they should be forced to crack out and take the risk of a lower grade if they really want the PCGS plastic.

Cheers

Greg

GP

the problem is, the same coin, cracked out, will grade at PCGS at the same grade it was from NGC. So either the slab makes it look bad (yeah right) or it isnt crossed because of the slab it is in.

jtryka

I wonder, how many crossovers have been rejected, only to be awarded the next time around with a crackout? No stats on that huh. Well as for me, I collect coins that I like, and I'll pay what I need to get them regardless of the wrapper. Personally, I like the coins in my permanent collection, and I will likely never try to cross my NGC coins to PCGS holders, why should I? I would spend $30, to get the same coin in what I consider to be a less attractive holder (cosmetically speaking). As for the PCGS "premium" I just love the hasty generalizations that all the kool-aid drinkers make about all coins being worth more in PCGS holders. It's laughable, and it's already been debated too much on these forums. So I'll leave those believers with a simple question, how much more would the 33 Saint have sold for if it was in a PCGS slab?

Finally, I might suggest that D Hall et al form a new "PCGS Forum" where all the slab monkeys can debate these topics, and the rest of us that want to discuss coins can do so on the "US Coin" Forum.

EVillageProwler

TT,

The 20% crossover rate is far off when compared to the 50% of NGC-slabbed coins that are PQ, and when compared to an analysis of the pops that DH used to show that PCGS is stricter.

20% means 1-in-5 coins will cross, which roughly implies that 1-in-5 is PQ, which also roughly implies that NGC is 1-in-5 less strict than PCGS.

Then, that means that NGC is 5 times more likely to grade an '89-CC Morgan an MS64 than MS63, when compared to PCGS. Is that the case? (Answer: NO.)

I submit that you're not analyzing your numbers carefully enough, and that you're accepting the funny numbers that DH and PCGS are throwing at your without critically thinking about their accuracy and relevance.

EVP

[edited to correct spelling mistake.]

gmarguli

If 20% of NGC coins measured up to the godlike standards of PCGS, then why does the Greysheet show PCGS coins selling for 86.17% and NGC coins 82.81%? That's a 3.36% different. Basically statistically insignificant.

Should somethng along the lines of 95% cross if the marketplace values the coins so similar?

The only people who don't want NGC coins to cross to PCGS are those, like yourself, that overpaid for the PCGS hype.

Russ

<< <i>I wonder, how many crossovers have been rejected, only to be awarded the next time around with a crackout? >>



This is the real crux of the issue. There are far too many stories of this happening to simply dismiss it as grousing on the submitter's part.

Russ, NCNE

EVillageProwler

Good comment, Greg.

TT, is your position mostly based on a financial incentive? Is your judgement on this matter truly impartial? Before you respond, please know that I'm trying to ask a delicate question sincerely. I am not trying to offend you. I am also asking this question because I want this question pretty much to go to everyone.

BTW, I buy most of my coins in PCGS slabs. A close 2nd would be NGC. I've also bought ANACS, ICG, SEGS slabs. I also buy raw material. I see lots of junk in every holder. For the stuff I examine closely, I see no clear winner on which service has the best stuff.

Regards,

EVP

Ronyahski

I agree that the 26% crossover rate is not out of line. That implies that 3 out of every 4 coins in NGC slabs won't make the PCGS grade. The crossover rate used to be around 50% for the longest time. I think many of NGC's best have already crossed - don't think anyone could disagree that there has been a healthy flow of coins from NGC to PCGS. So as the population of crossover candidates decreases, the crossover rate is bound to decrease.

Put another way, if the historical rate of crossovers ran at 50%, half of NGC coins did not make the PCGS grade. One can conclude from that, on average, PCGS is a 1/2 point tougher on grades than NGC. I can live with that conclusion.

Edited for bad sentence structure.

EVillageProwler

Put another way, if the historical rate of crossovers ran at 50%. So half of NGC coins did not make the PCGS grade. One can conclude from that, on average, PCGS is a 1/2 point tougher on grades than NGC. I can live with that conclusion.

???

I absolutely do NOT follow your conclusion. I have a degree in math, so feel free to get technical with me.

EVP

andy007

So, in 5 years will only 12.5 % of NGC coins cross? Following that, 15-20 years down the road(if any of them make it that long) there should be virtually no coins worthy of crossing to PCGS from NGC going by some of the logic used here.

coinguy1

Sorry, Greg, I must strongly disagree.

If a coin is in an NGC holder graded X, and is of the quality that PCGS TYPICALLY grades X, PCGS should cross it, without giving thought to the owner's cost in the coin, how it will impact owners of PCGS coins, whose holder it's in or anything else.

PCGS is supposed to be evaluating/grading coins, based on their attributes, consistently, accurately and impartially. You are asking that they do something very different from that, the very thing which they claim they do. The crossover politics are well known throughout the industry and need to end.

Morganluver

Wouldn't it be interesting if someone developed an "exterior temporary holder" for crossover candidates where the graders could only see the coin and not the encapsulation. It would effectively eliminate any "bias" the grader may have toward other services. I truly believe that PCGS thinks that they are head and shoulders above all other services reguarding their grading expertise. I find no fault in believing that you are the "best" at what you do, but in this case(crossovers) I think this "holier than thou" mindset terribly skews the graders objectivity when evaluating crossover coins. Anacs gave this coin a 65? It couldn't possibly be because they aren't as good as us. NGC graded this coin MS66. I think not. We'll show them (and the submitter for crossover) that NGC or any other service can't possibly be as strict as us. SEGS or PCI etc. gave it a what? We think not. It's not even MS. I think you get my drift. What you are hoping for when submitting for crossover is total objectivity and impartiality which is virtually impossible with the mindset that PCGS and directively, the graders have. Raw submissions are the only way you can hope to recieve any level of objectivity and impartiality, and even that's a roll of the dice. Someone come up with a way for crossovers to be viewed(graded) without knowlege of who's holder it's in and at least you would have a fighting chance. Just my thoughts and opinion.

TWODOGS

Edited to back out of this discussion before it turns REALLY nasty.

WWBillman

Greg,

Well said and I fully agree. Its all about making a coin more marketable/profitable and to do that it has to be in a PCGS slab.

The crossover players who boast how great the coins are and PCGS is bias just need to put the coin where their mouth is and crack them out to submit raw.
But they will not do this, instead they cry about PCGS not being fair Wonder why?

dorkkarl

reading about this driveling nonsense & the idiocy (excuse me for saying so), where the ridiculous issue of who'll cross what on what day of the week out of whose plastic for what amount of money for whatever reason, blah blah blah ... makes me so glad that i couldn't give a ding-dong about what kind of holder i buy coins in. how much enjoyment does one really gain from expending so much energy worrying about this nonsense?

ENJOY - THE - FREAKIN' - COIN, for chrissake!

K S

Ronyahski

Uh oh, EVP is a math major. Now I remember all those posts with charts on dispersion, regression analysis, extrapolation, and nice colors. They were very informative. So I know better not to get technical with you ( I do the best I can with my daughter's 8th grade algebra homework) but I will explain why I said what I did.

Let's say NGC grades a coin 66. Let's also assume that NGC rounds all grades to the nearest full point (actually a very safe assumption.). Let's also assume that the population was evenly spread amongst the grades 65.6 to 66.5. If PCGS grades those coins 1/2 point lower, they would grade the coins from 65.1 to 66.0. If PCGS rounds to the nearest full point, they would grade all coins from 65.1 through 65.5 as 65 ( half of them), and all coins from 65.6 through 66.0 as 66 ( the other half). So 50% of NGC coins graded 66 would grade PCGS 65.

That's my thinking. Assuming the assumptions are valid, anything wrong with the math? Back to the homework!

jtryka

What disturbs me more than the crossover bantering (read bad logic on both sides of the fence devolving into "my slab is better than yours," followed by "no it's not, mine is" etc. etc.) is the really bad math flying around here!

jtryka

Ronyahski,

A couple points to consider: NGC would likely not round a 65.1 to a 66 (I could be wrong, maybe that is their practice, so someone correct me if that's the case). You neglect the rare instances where an NGC coin not only crosses, but upgrades (I admit this is seldom the case). So your argument contains the hidden assumption that NGC NEVER grades more conservatively than PCGS which is clearly not true.

braddick

jtryka: "Slab Monkeys". I like that one!

IrishMike

Bill, why do you coveniently ignore all of the posts of the people who crack them out after they don't cross and end up getting the same grade that they were in, when they were holdered? There have been numerous posts to that affect.

jtryka

Thanks braddick, every so often I come up with some nice gems. As an old professor of mine once said, "even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while."

Ronyahski

jtryka - I stated that NGC would grade a 65.6 coin a 66, not 65.1. That NGC nevers grades more conservatively than PCGS was not a hidden assumption, is was a stated assumption. I was asking whether my conclusions were ill-founded based on the assumptions made.

I am making the assumption that, ON AVERAGE, PCGS grades 1/2 point lower than NGC. Your distinction is part of my average, also included in that assumption is that PCGS grades more than 1/2 point less than NGC on occasion. I suspect that EVP may see fault in the assumptions made. That's why I asked, I want to learn.

Typetone

Gmarguli, E-Village, Mark Felt et all:

I agree that my analysis is financial based. I also agree that those who want limited crossovers are those like me who "overpaid" for PCGS slabs. As one who "overpaid" for the product, I think I have a right to opine that PCGS maintain their admittedly tough crossover standards.

My beef with the arguement that NGC coins on balance are as good, is that you don't address my point. Namely, if you think they are as good, then why are you trying to cross them. If they have the same value on average, as Laura suggests, then why fight to cross, or complain when they don't. Just keep them where they are. In fact those fighting to crossover must have a view that PCGS plastic does increase the market value. If not why waste the $30?

But, if PCGS plastic does increase market value, then excess crosses hurt those of us who already paid the PCGS premium. So, the cross game should not be cheap or without risk. Why for $30 should you get an easy shot at increased value, with no risk (at worse it comes back in the original holder). What you should have to do is exactly what some are suggesting. Crack them out yourself. If they grade the same great, enjoy your profit. But, your risk if they grade lower. I would even suggest that PCGS discontinue crossover service!!

Greg

Elcontador

Ninguem me escute! Vocês não podem ler? Que lhes moleste?

It seems I should probably write the rest of this post in Portuguese, as many people who click on it either won't read or understand it. I am sick and ****** tired of seeing this time and time again. Are many people just not reading my God knows how many comments -- and similar comments made by others --on at least fifty occasions on this subject, or are they unable to understand simple English?

Anyone who says one service grades more strictly than the other simply has an axe to grind, no facts whatsoever, and really should be ignored, as they know nothing. Yes, I'm pissed off.

What series are you talking about? In what time frame was the coin graded? What grade was assigned to the coin? Only if you answer these three questions with specific answers, can you have an intelligent discussion about this subject.

If you want to discuss PCGS vs. NGC re MS 66 Liberty Nickels that were graded three years ago, yes, PCGS has a higher grading standard. But someone else mentioned that NGC's pop reports show fewer Trade $s in 6 than PCGS.

You can make general comments re Large Cents in MS 65 BN, IHC in MS 65 RD, etc.

But to say that X% of the coins cross, this is good or bad, in itself, is such a general statement that it is meaningless. In an earlier thread, Zerbe's comment re a 0 for 12 NGC coins crossing & when Bowers resubmitted them, 6 crossed -- now there are some specifics which should be addressed.

These general comments re one series being better than another are not quite as useful as toilet paper which has been appropriately used. I'm out of here.

WWBillman

Mike,


<< <i>Bill, why do you coveniently ignore all of the posts of the people who crack them out after they don't cross and end up getting the same grade that they were in, when they were holdered? There have been numerous posts to that affect. >>


I am not ignoring that. I am not even saying PCGS is or is not bias I could really care less. What I am saying is there is a real easy solution. Instead of whinning about it just crack them out and submit them raw, PROBLEM SOLVED.

Everyone comes here spouting "This coin IS a MS65 by anyones standards. I have shown it to umpteen million dealers and they all agree. PCGS will not cross it because they are bias against coins in NGC slabs." What I am saying is if that is true then you have nothing to loose, put your coin where your mouth is a quit whinning about the politics. Everyone says "Buy the coin not the slab" I say submit the coin not the slab and let it stand on its own merit.

If the different grading standards between PCGS & NGC is the real issue the the coin should stay in the NGC holder. PCGS should not be required to modify their standards to accomidate NGC crossovers.

RegistryCoin

"14k gold should be recognized as 18k gold", says the 14k gold enthusiasts, imho.

jtryka

Ronyahski,

My mistake on the rounding issue, I misread your rounding assumption (part of being a math guy is that I am not as good with reading/english). Please do not take my comments personally as I want all of us to learn, and I am hoping you want to learn from everyone here, not just EVP (he is not the only math expert here, although I was not a math major, and if you want to know my qualifications, please PM me and I would be happy to share as I do not want to sound like an egomaniac or anything - no offense EVP I was not implying you were an egomaniac). Now that I am a little clearer on your assumptions (I sometimes need things repeated) the only point I would add is that your assumptions only work in MS grades and do not take into account the non-MS grades where the half point theory would not apply since the crossover threshold between an AU 55 and AU 58 or EF-40 and EF-45 would be more than a half point of grade differential. My point overall is that your model is overly simplified in relation to the overall crossover issue. Hope this is helpful, and again please do not take this as a personal attack.

jtryka

RegistryCoin,

I take it that you are implying NCG=14K and PCGS=18K. I suppose your comment might be applicable in the fantasy world where grading was objective, like gold fineness.

dragon

Typetone,

Let me ask you this: If you crossed over all of your PCGS coins to NGC (assuming they would cross) would you like them less, are they now less desirable to experienced collectors, are they really worth less money, are they now not 'politically correct', etc?

It's all a self-fullfilling prophecy, and a game everyone plays cause everyone else plays the same game, and so on. I've had common date Saints go from NGC MS64 to PCGS MS66, yet grade for grade, PCGS ones are worth more. I've had NGC downgrade PCGS Morgans by two full points, etc. There are no generalities anymore, each coin is unique and must be treated on a case by case basis.

This market is now way to sophisticated IMO to buy the arguement that PCGS is 'The Standard" and NGC is second rate, and my holder's better than your holder.......the serious collectors are sooooooo over that nonsense by now and just search out the best coins period. Anyone disagree?

Dragon

RegistryCoin

WWBillman

<< <i>This market is now way to sophisticated IMO to buy the arguement that PCGS is 'The Standard" and NGC is second rate, and my holder's better than your holder.......the serious collectors are sooooooo over that nonsense by now and just search out the best coins period. Anyone disagree? >>


Obviously the ones who come into this forum whinning about the crossover rates disagree with you. Thats a whole bunch of people.

If they just want the coins why do they keep trying to get them into PCGS plastic?

Why does the cross over rate get them so fired up?

If they are sooooo over that nonsense why do they keep whinning?

If they are "Serious collectors" and buy the coin not the slab but want them in PCGS holders for whatever reason (not because PCGS is the standard of course) Crack them out and submit the coin not the slab.

Please just quit whinning.............If they are sooooo sure it is politics then crack it out and submit it raw PROBLEM SOLVED.

BigD5

I'll leave the math bologna for those who care about it. I don't. I want my coins graded properly. If a coin is a ms/65, then by golly, slab that baby as a ms/65. If I want my ngc ms/65 in a pcgs ms/65(I wouldn't, but some do), then I EXPECT pcgs to grade the coin properly, and not worry about whether or not the coin is PQ enough to "qualify" to be crossed over to one of their holders. I want the coin graded, period.
I found Mr. Hall's statements concerning the crossing over of PQ ngc material disturbing. That shows a clear bias in the grading of the coins. Basically, and this is what I received out of the comments, if the crossover coin wasn't PQ, it wasn't going to cross. That's horse shi*. If it's a 65, then slab it as a 65. The status of PQ can be determined later.
For those who think only 20% (or so) of ngc assigned grades that are submitted for crossovers to pcgs actually grade out the same assigned grade, and the other 80% are "overgraded" by ngc.........WAKE UP!

dorkkarl

some 15 million coins have been slabed in the last ten years. it averages out to 20 bucks a pop when all is said & done. thats THREE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS that has been spent on plastic. & y'all are quibbling about half a stupid grading point for crossing coins between services?

THREE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS!

$300,000,000.00!!!

c'mon, what have the grading services done for you lately? given you half a point in crossover drivel to quibble about?

good lord! do coins even matter any more?

K S

dragon

WWBillman,

I don't know why so many people are whining but I would suspect it has something to do with herd mentality, mental conditioning into believing one thing is better than the next, registry craze, the blind leading the blind,,,,,,or who knows.

I know it wouldn't bother me one bit to crack open every single PCGS coin in my collection (or NGC for that matter) and put them all in 3X3 white Capital acrylic holders,,,,,,and I would do it too if I hadn't just spent $250.00 on those Intercept Shield holders and boxes made for slabbed coins.

Dragon

Ronyahski

jtryka - Don't disagree with what you said. I don't have a mathematical model to prove what I said. Shucks, it's only my opinion. I was just hoping for some learning here and certainly didn't mean to impy that only EVP could supply. So let's forget the math and get back to coins!

Ronyahski

<< <i>
Anyone who says one service grades more strictly than the other simply has an axe to grind, no facts whatsoever, and really should be ignored, as they know nothing. Yes, I'm pissed off. >>



I think we are relying on our many specific experiences regarding strict grading by PCGS in order to make a general conclusion. We are simply stating our generaly conclusion (opinion) rather than boring everyone with all the specifics. At the sake of boring...



<< <i>What series are you talking about? >>



Franklin Halves-MS
Franklin Halves-Proof
Jefferson Nickels
Washington Quarters
Roosevelt Dimes
Liberty Nickels-MS
Liberty Nickels-Proof
Liberty Seated Dimes-Proof
Liberty Seated 20cents-Proof
Liberty Seated 20cents-MS
Liberty Seated Quarters-Proof
Liberty Seated Quarters-MS
Liberty Seated Halves-Proof



<< <i> In what time frame was the coin graded? >>



Any time over the last fifteen years.



<< <i> What grade was assigned to the coin? >>



PCGS assigned a grade lower than NGC



<< <i> Only if you answer these three questions with specific answers, can you have an intelligent discussion about this subject.

>>



I know that this is not as specific as Elcontador is requesting, but am trying to drill down as much as possible without writing pages. At the sake of going out on a limb here, I am going to assume that PCGS grades the other series not mentioned here similar to my experiences with the foregoing, more conservatively.

Not edited other than to point out that I don' know how to quote properly.

michael

for me within my speciality that i like and study and admire

if a coin is in an ngc holder instead of a pcgs holder then that is okie as long as the coin walks talks and sings to me and knocks me over
and has monster extraordinary qualities exceptional qualities then the ngc holder is okie with me!! as most of the time but not all of the time you pay less for the coin in the ngc holder crazy but really smart for the end buyer!!!!!!!!1

that is just the way it is with the CURRENT market and it suits me fine!!

i think over the long hall the collector will be amply rewarded

as long as you only buy the right coins with the right look!!!!!!!!!! then the holder either pcgs/ngc doesnot matter much

just make sure the coin is all there and has excpetional qualities then all or close to all will not care if the coin is in an ngc holder vs a pcgs as long as the coin is all there and the coin sings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

granted some coins are like this then only buy coins like this

specialize and know waht you are looking at and waht the coin is worth in the current market then you will do really well if in a pcgs holder and many times even better if in an ngc holder as the coin is less money

perception is everything and like the emperors new clothes pcgs is the currewnt king of the market and that is okie that creates buying opportunities for many saavy buyers and remember like the story of the emperors new clothes the emperor himself in a short amount of time realized this as nothing lasts forever


but remember this above concept only works for great special coins coins with extraordinary exceptional qualities and eye appeAL

if you buy lesser quality sstuff with lessor quality traits and do not know or understand waht you are looking at that is okie just let the buyer beware

i mean here is an attatchment of a coin i consider to be one of the finest known if not the finest known as it is much better eye appeal wise much better originality wise much better toning wise and just as good gradewise as the 5? ms68 pcgs coins it is in an ngc holder AND with a coin like this ngc/pcgs who cares!! not me as in the long run this will be the better deal

sincerely michael

sincerely michael

wondercoin

I am not agreeing with Typetone or disagreeing. I just have one question and an observation. First, the observation- if people really believed all it took was to crack NGC coins from their holders to get the PCGS grade, this entire discussion would be moot wouldn't it?

Now, the question - and it is directed at Coinguy (Mark), who might be able to answer it quickly (or get an answer for us without much trouble). The question is: What has been the NGC crossover rate for the past 12 months? I am curious if the act of "crossover" itself holds back high %'s of coins working. After all, coins look different in the holder - the luster is different, the colors are different and the overall eye appeal can change from viewing the coin between your fingers "raw". Thanks in advance for addressing this question Mark.


Wondercoin





Wondercoin.

coinguy1

Mitch,

I'm not sure if your question concerned the crossover rate of NGC coins to PCGS or PCGS coins to NGC. Either way, I'm sorry to say, I have no clue. Hopefully, the applicable grading service can answer that for you, though. Sorry to have been completely stumped.

wondercoin

Mark: My question was what is the NGC crossover rate? In other words - PCGS crossed 26% of slabs in the past 12 months. What percentage of slabs did NGC cross?

I am curious if NGC might also have a low rate. Again, as you know coins look very different in a holder as compared to raw. The NGC % might be useful to this discussion.

Wondercoin

Typetone

Dragon:

If I sent all my coins to NGC for grading, I would be just as satisfied with the coins themselves. Financially, I would hope that many if not most would cross at higher grades. If enough did, financially I might be equal or better off. If they all crossed at the same grade, I would be very disappointed, because financially I believe I would have lost money. While I am a collector first, one must consider the financial aspects of a major expenditure.

Greg

EVillageProwler

Ronyahski: my comment about my being a math major was not intended as a challenge. It was merely intended for you to feel free to express your point in mathematical or statistical terms, and I would be happy to try to keep up.

WWBillman: your suggestion to put up or shut up is a good one, but for the fact that people also complain about the inconsistency with PCGS grading. So, a coin graded X (even by PCGS), when cracked out and re-submitted raw, would stand an excellent chance of coming back Y. That's why folks only use the crackout approach for coins they feel are grossly undergraded. In the case of NGC vs PCGS, we're assuming that a coin in an NGC slab is accurately graded, as opposed to being undergraded.

Ronyahski: instead of applying the term of this discussion to 15 years, I think you'd be more enlightened if you chose specific grade and series ranges over a much narrower time period. I think you'll find some interesting results because the services have varied greatly in terms of how strict or loose they were fro each specific series over the past decade or so. ICG, for example, was very strict early on. It became much less so. Now, it has become more so once again. In this example, I am speaking about Early Dollars.

Over the lifespan of the grading services, there's been too much change -- even within a service -- for one to speak with much accuracy. DHall's comment about how good PCGS is when compared to NGC holds no water when one considers how loose PCGS was 2 or 3 years ago when compared to right now. And, DHall's statistical argument with the trade dollars also hold no water when you realize that PCGS has graded more super-grade trades than NGC. By DHall's logic, all PCGS MS66+ trade dollars are overgraded. Just like all NGC MS65 trades are overgraded.

DHall has also accused NGC of unethical business practices simply because Heritage (or some of their officers) own a stake in NGC. No one, besides DHall, has accused NGC of manipulating grades for themselves or their cronies. (BTW, no NGC employee is a current coin dealer.) Yet, many have accused DHall, et al, of manipulating grades for either themselves or their cronies.

WWBillman: I don't know if I think it's fair of you to accuse those of us who complain about the crossover rate as whining. We are customers of PCGS, and we're allowed to complain. Also, we're entitled to complain further because the CEO of CU gave us an unsatisfactory answer. If you had a municipal issue that bothered you, and you didn't like it, you'd complain about it to town hall, right? If the mayor's office doesn't respond to your satisfaction, what would you do then? And, how would you feel if an average town citizen then told you to stop whining and to leave the town if you didn't like it?

EVP

EVillageProwler

Typetone,

It is brave and honest of you to admit that your position is rooted in your personal financial concerns. That, however, raises the question of your partiality and the accuracy of your analysis on this matter.

It is one thing to say ``yeah, DH made no sense, but I still need to protect myself,'' and another to say ``yeah, DH made no sense, but I'm going to say he made sense anyway -- just to protect myself.''

EVP

gmarguli

In fact those fighting to crossover must have a view that PCGS plastic does increase the market value. If not why waste the $30?

Not really. Originally I crossed some coins to do a registry set. Then I got tired of the PCGS crossover game and the stupid values given in the registry (my opinion, even with the weighting, the registry is just one giant stupid game of who has the bigger d***) where coins didn't cross, yet I cracked them and they magically graded the same or higher. Want to explain that? Of course not. Lets ignore that!

Just yesterday I sent some PCGS coins to NGC to cross. It had nothing to do with marketability or increased value. I fully expect them to all cross and at the same grade.


Why for $30 should you get an easy shot at increased value, with no risk (at worse it comes back in the original holder).

Because those are the rules that PCGS set. If they don't like them, then they should change them. Charge $100 for a crossover like they used to. However, if you make a set of rules and tell them to the public, at least have the honestly to play by them.

gmarguli

If they just want the coins why do they keep trying to get them into PCGS plastic?

Who cares. It is their choice. Maybe they like the holder better. Why should NOT enter into the equation. The quality of the coins should be the only factor.


Why does the cross over rate get them so fired up?

Because PCGS takes their $30 and doesn't follow the rules that they told you the game was being played by.

WWBillman

EVillageProwler,

I wish I knew of a better word for it.

<< <i>a coin graded X (even by PCGS), when cracked out and re-submitted raw, would stand an excellent chance of coming back Y. >>

That would apply to PCGS or NGC gradding.
>>

That's why folks only use the crackout approach for coins they feel are grossly undergraded. In the case of NGC vs PCGS, we're assuming that a coin in an NGC slab is accurately graded, as opposed to being undergraded. >>

First of all you know what they say about assuming things. If its tighter grading standards everyone has a problem with and that is the reason they do not want to take a chance by cracking out the NGC coins for submission so be it. If PCGS is truly tighter (undergrades) than leave the coin where it is or take a shot at the cross if you feel lucky.

But 90% of what I hear here is PCGS is bias against coins in NGC slabs and that is the reason for the low cross rate. If everyone saying that truely believes it then like I said submit the coin not the slab and let it be graded on its own merit. Quit with the PCGS is bias whining song and dance.

WWBillman

gmarguli,



<< <i>Why does the cross over rate get them so fired up?
Because PCGS takes their $30 and doesn't follow the rules that they told you the game was being played by. >>


Could you please show me the rule that states for $30.00 they WILL cross your NGC coin?

Placid

If only 26% cross that suggests that the 74% that didn't cross are overgraded. I guess it's possible but unlikley.
If pcgs's opinion of what a 65 is differs from what ngc's opinion of a 65 is then coin collecting has a long way to go in my opinion if even the people who are paid to grade coins can't agree on what grade a coin is

It is almost like it was before grading company's showed up. Take your coin to three different dealers and get told three different grades.
I thought the original concept of grading company's and slabs was to eliminate this.

EVillageProwler

If everyone saying that truely believes it then like I said submit the coin not the slab and let it be graded on its own merit.

WWBillman,

That's unfair of you to say this because you're essentially challenging folks to choose between one of two choices: to go against the alleged bias of a crossover, or to go against the inherent inconsistency of a raw submission.

The crackout dealers use raw submissions ONLY IF THEY FEEL THAT THE COIN IS UNDERGRADED. Otherwise, they don't bother with that because it's just too risky.

Please keep in mind that the assertion is that the NGC-slabbed specimens are, on average, accurately graded. Not overgraded, and not undergraded. Thus, the assertion is that the average NGC-slabbed coin should cross.

EVP

EVillageProwler

Could you please show me the rule that states for $30.00 they WILL cross your NGC coin?

Bill,

Just how desperately are you going to try to spin this? The ``rule'' is that if a coin merits the grade, then it should cross. And, there are plenty of folks who believe that this rule is not being followed, and that is the basis of the complaint.

Do you get it now, or do you still think that people who complain about matters that you don't agree with are whiners? Perhaps you should stop whining about other people whining, because it merely reinforces the notion that you're narrow-minded and intolerant.

EVP

leothelyon

In the crackout game what are the agenda's for the collecter. dealer and PCGS?
Of course the crossover game is different altogether than the crackout game..

I think the collecter wants to crossover for an increase in value in his coin.
A second reason would be to have all his coins in one type of slab.
Another would be for a registry set.
And to get an accurate grade.

For the dealer, one would be for profit.
Another might be for recognition to deal with one slab.

PCGS
Their submission rates are $15 economy.
But if the value of the coin is over $300 than the submission rate is $30.

So if their agenda is to be strict with their grading practices, doesn't this keep their population
numbers down and push up the values of the coins in their slabs, to get the $30? Perhaps this is also a reason for
the low percent of crossovers.
And how many times have you experienced or heard of a coin crossing over the 2nd or 3rd time it'submitted. Did someone get charged 2-3 times?

Leo