As a collecter, if I were financially able to shuffle my collection back and forth between the 3 grading firms several times and ended up with 2-3 different grades for each date, do I keep the highest numbers in my collection or sell them. It might be a good idea to sell the ones I thought were overgraded and keep the ones that were graded accurately. Maybe that would work for me or does anyone think this is just too fastidious since the coin hasn't really changed at all. But maybe my bank account would increase. Maybe not.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Beyond the "we don't like NGC" conspiracy theory (which may well play a part), it is certainly more difficult to grade a coin or detect problems once it is in the holder.
Put yourself in PCGS' shoes... you decide to cross some megabucks coin, only to find out once you get it out of the holder that it has a big rim gouge or something. Or it's a proof coin is full of hairlines that you couldn't see through a scuffy holder.
The solution is really pretty simple... as Greg mentions, if you're confident your coin will stand on its own merits, crack it out yourself and send it in. If you're not confident cracking it out, why should PCGS be?
As usual, your logic is impeccable. If you are not confident enough to crack it out, why should PCGS be. Yes, if you are grading in a holder, the coin really has to be no question.
EVillage, GregM:
Yes, my comments concern financial interest. Since the coin is the coin, regardless of the holder, the question of which holder does seem mostly financial. I don't think I was biased. I simply stated a view that loosening up the crossover standards would generate more PCGS coins and perhaps reduce the value of mine. I admitted that it would generate value for the crossover artist, and objected to losing at his/her expense. I also said that I and PCGS collectors like me "believe" that PCGS grades to higher standards. I am not asserting that my belief is fact. That's what's great about truth. Truth doesn't depend on who does or doesn't believe it. I finally asked why people who believe the coins are of equal value care to do crossovers. I asked that because I am curious to know if we are disadvantaging this group were PCGS to eliminate crossovers. So far the answers are because the holders look better (right), or to participate in the PCGS registry (maybe). I don't think those comments or questions are biased, though my view to stop or limit crossovers is clearly financially based.
A dealer with vast knowledge of the grading services practices just emailed me to tell me he seemed to recall NGC's cross rate to be around 35%. Again, perhaps Mark can contact NGC Monday and confirm that, as that number has certainly not be verified and is pure "hearsay" at this point.
However, assuming 35%-40% to be the case (as I personally suspect may be close to reality, due to the inherent "risks" of graded coins hiding behind plastic), I doubt there will be many NGC conspiracy theories written about. It simply may be the reality that coins have a tendency to grade higher raw than hiding out in plastic (where rims are hidden and luster is often times impaired, etc).
Make sense? Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Greg, While I don't agree with you on the subject matter of this particular thread, I enjoy reading your thoughts and comments. I also appreciate the polite way in which you make your points. I think I've said that to two other people this week - I'm encouraged a bit! I'm glad you're here.
By the way, your face looks vaguely familiar - is it possible that we played baseball together somewhere, many, many years ago?
What Super&Wondercoin said about the holder affecting the perception of the coin seems plausible. I know that I like to look at a coin raw.
Typetone was honest enough to say that his assessment is based on a financial motivation.
However, let's keep in mind that the Great One used the excuse that PCGS-slabbed coins are simply better, grade for grade, than NGC-slabbed coins. Better -- as in they are deserving of a higher grade. His excuse wasn't that the coins are worth more, because the Bluesheet and Greysheet data belie that for many dates, series and grades.
DHall's comment was rather unambiguous: that the typical coin in a PCGS slab is PQ or undergraded relative to a typical coin in an NGC slab, grade for grade of course!
Mitch, you have raised an interesting point (even if it doesn't fully account for all of the bias).
I have contacted NGC and will report as soon as I have an answer from them.
In the mean time, I can agree with you that many coins do look different in the holder vs. out of the holder and that could play at least some role in the crossover numbers/percentages.
I am somewhat disappointed that no one really picked up on my thoughts on famous collections being included in the registry without even being certified. By inference, this means that PCGS coins are #1, and raw coins of famous folks (like Eliasberg, etc) are better than all other services. While this may be true, it's not like these coins no longer exist, nor are they likely still raw, or all in PCGS holders. The whole competitive arguement is don't let NGC in, since that will hurt current players, yet they have no problems competing against the greatest collections of all time raw? Anyone else see the inconsistency?
Comments
firms several times and ended up with 2-3 different grades for each date, do I keep the highest numbers in my collection or sell them. It might be a good idea to sell the ones I thought were overgraded and keep the ones that were graded accurately. Maybe that would work for me or does anyone think this is just too fastidious since the coin hasn't really changed at all. But maybe my
bank account would increase. Maybe not.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Put yourself in PCGS' shoes... you decide to cross some megabucks coin, only to find out once you get it out of the holder that it has a big rim gouge or something. Or it's a proof coin is full of hairlines that you couldn't see through a scuffy holder.
The solution is really pretty simple... as Greg mentions, if you're confident your coin will stand on its own merits, crack it out yourself and send it in. If you're not confident cracking it out, why should PCGS be?
As usual, your logic is impeccable. If you are not confident enough to crack it out, why should PCGS be. Yes, if you are grading in a holder, the coin really has to be no question.
EVillage, GregM:
Yes, my comments concern financial interest. Since the coin is the coin, regardless of the holder, the question of which holder does seem mostly financial. I don't think I was biased. I simply stated a view that loosening up the crossover standards would generate more PCGS coins and perhaps reduce the value of mine. I admitted that it would generate value for the crossover artist, and objected to losing at his/her expense. I also said that I and PCGS collectors like me "believe" that PCGS grades to higher standards. I am not asserting that my belief is fact. That's what's great about truth. Truth doesn't depend on who does or doesn't believe it. I finally asked why people who believe the coins are of equal value care to do crossovers. I asked that because I am curious to know if we are disadvantaging this group were PCGS to eliminate crossovers. So far the answers are because the holders look better (right), or to participate in the PCGS registry (maybe). I don't think those comments or questions are biased, though my view to stop or limit crossovers is clearly financially based.
Greg
However, assuming 35%-40% to be the case (as I personally suspect may be close to reality, due to the inherent "risks" of graded coins hiding behind plastic), I doubt there will be many NGC conspiracy theories written about. It simply may be the reality that coins have a tendency to grade higher raw than hiding out in plastic (where rims are hidden and luster is often times impaired, etc).
Make sense?
By the way, your face looks vaguely familiar - is it possible that we played baseball together somewhere, many, many years ago?
Typetone was honest enough to say that his assessment is based on a financial motivation.
However, let's keep in mind that the Great One used the excuse that PCGS-slabbed coins are simply better, grade for grade, than NGC-slabbed coins. Better -- as in they are deserving of a higher grade. His excuse wasn't that the coins are worth more, because the Bluesheet and Greysheet data belie that for many dates, series and grades.
DHall's comment was rather unambiguous: that the typical coin in a PCGS slab is PQ or undergraded relative to a typical coin in an NGC slab, grade for grade of course!
Do y'all agree with that sentiment?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I have contacted NGC and will report as soon as I have an answer from them.
In the mean time, I can agree with you that many coins do look different in the holder vs. out of the holder and that could play at least some role in the crossover numbers/percentages.