Can a PCGS/NGC slab graded MS-63 have any WEAR ever?

1907Quarter

I know this is an old topic, but I think I have phrased the question more simply. Everyone's input is always appreciated!

wallstreetman

NO! Mintstate means no wear!

Endocrinologist

Ditto above

newbiecollector

Please define "wear" for me then.

1907Quarter

I'm thinking slider with great appeal/luster. A coin can have "circulation marks" with unimpeded luster. Will the companies grade this 63 or 58? If I buy an MS coin on ebay, I can't see the coin and the pic may not show all of the defects.

CLASSICS

NO! a coin cannot have any wear..........period........in order to be in mint state condition.....

EVillageProwler

In existing market conditions, the answer is YES. Wear is an ambiguous term in our industry, and is usually accompanied by much debate. Many folks think that ``MS'' means strictly MINT STATE, while others think of it merely as a poor synonym for UNCIRCULATED.

There are many UNC coins with cabinet or other types of non-circulation friction. Technically, they'd not be rub-free. But, they are uncirculated, and the vast majority of these coins have JUST ABOUT 100% full booming luster that you may as well say that it's 100% full.

Also, many coins come off the presses with minor luster breaks. Right away, how does one tell the difference between these coins and those with non-circ luster breaks?

Those who argue for a strict interpretation of MS would probably not like any coin that is less than MS67. Otherwise, the coin is no longer truly ``mint'' state and we'd have to accept a greater degree of imperfection. In that case, how do we classify these degrees of imperfections? Don't forget about those cases where a coin comes away from the mint with luster breaks. Why are these imperfections treated differently than others like bumps and bruises?

Personally, I think MS is simply an aggregate of a number of different criteria, including the amount of rub, the amount of luster, the amount of marks, the amount of detail and the amount of eye appeal.

EVP

DHeath

You mentioned marks. Don't confuse marks with wear. Wear would be indicated by breaks in luster, or dull areas, or obvious wear on the devices. Marks can occur in a variety of ways, including coins banging together entering the hopper at the mint. Most mint state coins have marks, just no wear.

Dog97

No wear but it can have rub from a loose roll or contact with other coins in a bag etc.
some early series struck on hand presses are so weak they look like they have wear.

newbiecollector

Thanks for the replies....

I think I understand a little better about the "wear" question.

Thanks

CLASSICS

mint state, means.................no wear. weather it slid around someones old cabinet collection or not, make no diffrence, the coin cannot show any wear in order to be in mint state condition. some mint state coins look better than others, and after years of debate as to what is bu.... choice bu ...very select bu, many dealers invented thier own grading system as to what degree of eye appeal, and strike, amount of bag marks made a nice coin... such as...bu, choice bu, select bu, hand selected bu, it all became very confusing, thus we ended up with graded coins such as ms60, ms 61, ms 65, and so on. which has helped in the long run, no it is not perfect, but it has helped. ms 60 means just that, no wear.....ms67 means just that....no wear .... it just looks better.ie.lack of bag marks,a better strike, etc. etc. { but...........no wear....... } some of the confussion is still with us today, go on ebay, and look at the amount of coins which by the way are not graded, the sellers say...good to fine... almost xf...... vf/xf.....au to bu.....its like dr. jeckle and mr. hide. they cant be both. its either a xf or it isnt. and have you noticed some big time dealers when you see thier adds, the hype they put behind thier grades....ms65 very { pq} .... or ms64 should have been a ms66... if it should have been a ms66 why dont they resumitt it? here are some more, superb ms61.....flawless ms 62....wondercoin ms63.... i even saw someone selling a....superb ms67 {not graded} dollar which was wizzed. bottom line, dont beleive the hype.....bottom line.....if it has wear it is not in mint state condition....these are my thoughts after being in the hobby for many years, and spending many hours ,with some of the greatest dealers who have been in the hobby for many years.and who have sold some of the worlds greatest coins.

toners

Just remember a weak strike can or may look like wear, Especially some walker halves, I a pcgs toned 41s walker that looks like wear on the leg, but its graded MS 64, I found out from informative members of the board that 42s are notorious for there weak strikes.
Thanks
Allen

darktone

Just take a look at MS60-MS63 gold coins for example and you will find your answer easy enough. mike

Conder101

PCGS will grade some coins that have very light wear (AU-58) as high as MS-63 if the have good eye appeal and lack distracting marks. Especially capped bust halves.

RotatedRainbows

EVP is correct, just look at as many slabbed MS early bust coins as you can and you will notice many have what is usually called cabinet friction (rub) and you will see the answer is yes.

dorkkarl

YES. many coins in mint-state slabs have wear, which is how it should be in the context of market grading. this is "cabinet friction", whereby the grader can determine w/ some certainty that the wear was not caused by circulation, but by storage problems. especially true of pre-seated era coins.

K S

wallstreetman

What difference does it make how the wear was caused, wear is wear! If a coin has wear and is graded MS, it is overgraded in my book!

Gilbert

Mint state and uncirculated are synonymous, and not poorly so.

Cabinet friction, coin to coin contact, etc are not consider wear. Wear is a break in luster from mishandling and/or surface abrasions resulting from being commercial cahnnels (paraphrased of course)

If we could just use the mechanisms available to us, i. e. reference books in which numismatic terminology and expressions are clearly defined, we wouldn't be debating if mint state and uncirculated are synonymous, or if cabinet/roll friction is the same as wear.

The only reason coins with wear are slabbed as mint state is because we as a community continue to allow it, by accepting and even courting the numbers instead of challenging the very services we pay to be "independent". In my mind independent should mean a coin grades XX regardless how much someone is willing to pay for it.

BillJones

I've not seen an ealy gold coin (pre-1840) in anyone's MS-61, 62 or 63 slab that I would call Mint State. They all have rub in the fields. I'm not talking about contract marks; I'm talking about RUB.

Consistent overgrading is one of the reasons why the Gray Sheet bids seem to be low for some coins, especially key date and some early coins. The bids have been reduced because the coins really are not up to snuff.

Here's one for you however. I had a Three Dollar gold piece in an NGC MS-63 holder. It looks great from a naked eye inspection and with a 3X glass. The fields are full Unc. with great luster and very minor marks that require a 10X to see. But if you really look at it with a 10X you can see a very slight flattening (and I mean really minor) in the hair above Ms. Liberty's forehead.

Would you still call this coin MS-63? I would, but I would be interested in other's thoughts on this.

airplanenut

Don't forget weak strikes- they can appear to be a bit of wear, but in fact they are just the highest relief that wasn't struck well

EVillageProwler

NO! a coin cannot have any wear..........period........in order to be in mint state condition.

(Not meaning to pick on Ron Isler, but I have to pick someone as an example, and what he wrote here was very succinct.)

I don't understand how anyone can state with such definitiveness on a subject matter that is inherently imprecise. There are so many factors that make the determining of one state versus another so difficult to do that we simply have to live with the fact that our hobby is governed by imprecision.

On the subject of whether a coin is a slider AU58 or MS62, a grader has to make a best guess based on what he, as a human being, can do. There is no way he can in practical terms consistently determine between an AU58 and an UNC grade if that coin has the look (i.e., eye appeal, luster, etc.) of an UNC.

And, because of this simple fact of life, the services simply acknowledge that they must ``net'' a coin higher. If a coin looks like an UNC and is priced as an UNC, then they'll grade it as an UNC. Just like if a coin is an MS64 in terms of marks, but has impaired luster, then it can easily be graded MS63.

There are very few absolutes in this industry, and saying that an MS coin has no rub isn't one of them.

I understand that some of you voiced your opinion with an eye towards the ideal. After all, we were all taught that UNC means UNC. No ifs, ands or buts about it. But, our idealism is but a minor voice when compared to the crushing voice of realism, and as dictated to by the market.

The answer to the question, as posed in the subject line, is YES. Why? Simply because you can find plenty of examples of this in the marketplace.

EVP

dorkkarl

to phrase the answer in a different, more subtle way:

coins can leave the mint with wear that is evident.

K S

CalGold

Perhaps this will illustrate the problem with speaking in absolute terms:

Case 1: A mint sealed bag of freshly minted double eagles is moved from the Treausry to a bank, and then from bank to bank in the US to settle interbank transactions. Eventually it is transported to an overseas bank, where it moves between banks for an additional number of years to settle intenational currency transaction. The coins rub againt eachother each time the bag is moved and show marks and "rub" as a result.

Are these coins uncirculated? They never were thumbed and fingered or carried around in anyone's pocket, but they moved around in the stream of commerce.

Do these coins have wear? They have marks and rub from clanking into each other and rubbing against each other as the bag is moved around over the years.

If one them is sent to PCGS can it be graded MS?

Case 2: I go to the bank and exchange a dollar bill for four quarters. The teller opens a fresh roll of bright shiny quarters that have come from the mint to the bank via fedreal transactions. I put the quarters in my pocket and walk across the street to the store. I use the quarters to pay for my purchase. Noticing that they are brand new state quarters, the cashier who is a coin collector replaces them with a dollar bill and takes them home and sends them off to PCGS for grading. The amount of time that has elapsed from my receiving the quarters from the bank to the time the cashier stuck them in his or her pocket is five minutes. The coins show no detectable wear. Are they uncirculated? Can they be graded MS?


CG

jom

The QUESTION that was asked was whether PCGS/NGC slabs at MS63 have coins with wear. YES. There is NO question. PERIOD. Conder says he's seen it on Bust Halves. I've seen it on 20th Century gold. Seen it on Buffalo nickels all the time.

Now, whether an "MS" should be graded as such is another matter. It's also HARD to define (like everything else in this hobby, it seems). IMO, if the wear doesn't AT ALL effect the EYE-APPEAL then I see no reason why a nice lusterous, little-marked technical AU58 can't be worth (note the use of the word "worth") the same as an MS63. It also depends on the price difference in the grades. If there is a huge price difference the coin my only get an MS62. I see NOTHING wrong with this.

Now if you are the type that likes to have the technical grade on the holder and let the market decide the price then you need to find a different coin market. Because the one we have here in the US is NOT that way. I'm not saying that wouldn't be better but that is how it is today.

If we were to go to a technical system (theoretically) then there would be other changes such as: dumping the designations such as FB, FBL, FH etc. because then those coins would now be judged BY THE MARKET. Also, you could limit the number of MS grades to 4 or so. Again, letting the market decide the in-betweens. But, like I said, this is all theoretical. I don't see it happening any time soon however.

jom

Elcontador

EVP and Cal Gold have good points. I think the key here is no detectable wear. With as little time spent grading each individual coin added to the fact that people grade coins, some coins with wear from circulation will get slabbed as MS 60 or better. Recently, I saw an AU Capped Bust quarter in a 4 holder.

One reason I bought a Reeded Edge rather than a less expensive (for the same grade) Capped Bust Half for my type set is because I wanted a well struck coin. Capped Bust Halves are often weakly struck and tough to grade, and the idea of an MS 65 holdered coin with weak curls near the TY of LIBERTY or a weak clasp just doesn't do it for me. While on this subject, look closely before buying an MS 63 slabbed SLQ.

This is why I do not buy coins sight unseen. If I see a slabbed coin and I don't agree with how it is graded -- ie., I don't see cabinet friction or contact marks, I see wear from circulation -- I won't buy the coin if I'm looking for MS 60 or better. Now more than ever, if a coin has nice eye appeal, contact marks, weak strike, etc. are more likely to be overlooked when it is graded. This is what market grading is all about, and caveat emptor.

roadrunner

Obvious rub/wear appears on a very large number of early type PCGS/NGC up to grades MS66. Bust halves are notorious for this.
Bust dollars are right behind them. Good luck finding an UNC bust half without rub. I saw my first one in ages at the Vermeulle sale last November. Seated halves and sometimes the quarters also show much of the same problem. I remember being sent a pair of PCGS MS66 1840 halves last year from a major PCGS dealer that had obvious rub on Liberty's leg. The market deemed them "gem unc" yet they were not without wear. I felt they were marketable as 64/65 coins. 20th century coins aren't affected quite as much due to better handling & storage.

Like EVP said, you may have to stick to grades of 67 and higher to be sure of getting a rub free coin, especially on the pre-1900 stuff.
Full field luster isn't normally present even up to grades of 64. And you often see field friction or abuse up to grades 65/66. We could revamp the system and call 95% of the currrent UNC coins AU. And you would be right. That would leave a tiny qty for everyone to fight over as truly "mint state."

roadrunner

CLASSICS

<< <i>What difference does it make how the wear was caused, wear is wear! If a coin has wear and is graded MS, it is overgraded in my book! >>

............wallstreetman.. youve got it right.

CLASSICS

<< <i>PCGS will grade some coins that have very light wear (AU-58) as high as MS-63 if the have good eye appeal and lack distracting marks. Especially capped bust halves. >>

......contenter101.....and that is a shame....just because a coin looks good toning or whatever if it has wear and they grade it ms62 or 63 it is overgraded.

CLASSICS

<< <i>Don't forget weak strikes- they can appear to be a bit of wear, but in fact they are just the highest relief that wasn't struck well >>

.....airplanenut....weak strikes are something completly diffrent from wear...a trained eye can tell the diffrence.

CLASSICS

evillageprowler. i dont feel picked on, iam just stating the facts. in order for a coin to be in mint state condition...it {cannot have any wear. } if a grader, grades a coin which has wear, rub, call it what you want, and says it is in mint state.... that person has no business grading coins. mint state means ...no wear.....

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Can a PCGS/NGC slab graded MS-63 have any WEAR ever? >>



Of course. A slab can be scuffed, worn, or even cracked, regardless what the label says.

As to the coin inside it, no. No wear. But on Mint State coins, there can be marks, some of which are caused by light friction with other coins in a bag or similar circumstances. The tricky part is determining on what side of a sometimes thin dividing line the coin falls; whether it displays mere "scuffing" or "rub", or actual "wear". Like all grading, this is subject to different interpretations and opinions. In some cases and on some kinds of coins, it is very easy to tell the difference. On others, it is much less so. Despite 26 years in the hobby, I still cannot usually distinguish with certainty between AU58 and a low Mint State grade on a few types of coins. In U.S. coinage, this would include the Peace dollar and the Pratt-designed Indian gold coins with the incuse designs. For these types of coins I usually defer to the opinion of a third-party grading service.

I will usually accept this opinion, unless the surfaces of the coin plainly show obvious wear (not just cabinet friction or slide marks or bagmarks). Is it "wear" or is it "rub"? Depends on what you want to call it. While I am capable of grading my own coins just fine except for the types mentioned above, if PCGS calls something "MS63" it's usually good enough for me.

EVillageProwler

evillageprowler. i dont feel picked on, iam just stating the facts. in order for a coin to be in mint state condition...it {cannot have any wear. } if a grader, grades a coin which has wear, rub, call it what you want, and says it is in mint state.... that person has no business grading coins. mint state means ...no wear.....

Actually, I think you are voicing an opinion. I happen to think it is a good opinion, but it is still an opinion that is contrary to current market practices.

Why do I say that it is an opinion? Because nearly the entirety of the market disagrees with you in practice. The professional graders disagree with you. The dealers disagree with you. Collectors too. Perhaps not everyone, but enough that you cannot easily claim your position as fact and cavalierly dismiss their point of view.

When I first learned how to grade, I also learned that MS means no rub or wear or whatever you called it. As time wore on, things became different. I would prefer that we went back to a stricter interpretation of what is MS, and view sliders in MS slabs as mistakes, but that is simply my preference and opinion.

I will say that I do what I can to back up my opinion by only buying MS slabs that I truly believe are MS. Otherwise, I'm happy settling for a slider and paying slider money for it.

EVP

CLASSICS

evillageprowler, yes, i see what you are saying, and i understand. when i started collecting many years ago, mint state equaled....no wear.... it seems that as time has passed the meaning of the word... mint state has changed...does that make it right? ... not for me.... not now or in the future.... call me old fashion.... i do beleive that the word mint state means...no wear...bag marks dings from banging around a bag of coins, sure. that i do understand, however, if i see a coin and they tell me it is unc. mint state...and it has wear on it , they can call it what ever they like.....they can grade it what ever they want ms65 or ms69...if it has any wear on it...i will never call it mint state....and will not buy it....i also understand pcgs is getting more strick with thier grading, are they changing they way they grade again? things do change. people will always think what they want, but for me, and again i say call me old fashion....mint state will always mean...no wear.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Good luck finding an UNC bust half without rub. >>

in 20 year, i have seen maybe 5 bust halves that had NO rub. not one was in a slab, &

<< <i>you may have to stick to grades of 67 >>

i have examined numerous certified bust haves, ms-66/67. have also examined 1 ngc ms-66 & 1 ngc ms-67 bust half that have clever toning that hides certain, ahem, distractions....

advice: do NOT pay the exoribitant premiums demanded of sellers of such coins. ms-60 - ms-67 is gonna have rub.

K S

CLASSICS

dorkkarl......that is so very true, they are truely slim to none. you know way back in the 1800s. the collectors stored thier coins on velvet lined trays or somrthing close to it, when viewing iam sure they slid around and that is why they are so hard to find today...without that slight rub on them. i did see some very beautiful early coins dave bowers had from one of these old time collections, yes, everone had that very slight rub on them. very tuff to find without paying an arm and a leg.

davefperry

Mint state should indicate the condition of a coin after it was stamped. That means regardless of weak strikes, marks or die failures the coin is MS. Factor in any type of wear and the coin becomes AU at best.

roadrunner

roadrunner

While I don't like the way the MS standard has been butchered over the past 12 years it's the way it is. I applaud anyone's efforts to purchase only technical mint state coins with absolutely no rub but it is getting harder and harder to find them. They offer great value when you can find them.

roadrunner

Whitewashqtr

I always love to read LordMarcovan's Posts. Not only are the witty. .. they are informative. You are correct again, oh Lordship!!