<< <i>The last thing we need are the methods discused here...I can see the value in learning how to spot AT but the methods should be kept quite. >>
the methods should be discussed. the knowledge won't harm anyone. there is one guy that posts here occassionally that uses accellerated toning to make coins. does a nice job, too! he's shared a bit of his knowledge and it was quite interesting. knowledge is power.
Knowledge is always good - as these guys say, just because you know what the receipe is doesn't mean that you know how to cook it. Discussing what methods are used and how to tell one coin apart from the other would be very helpful. I'm sure some of you who may have foraged into the land of raw toned coins are thinking twice and thrice about it now - why not try to learn as much as possible so that we can tell when some of these gems come up?
It will never be possible to tell AT from original toning because there is no line between the two, and when you get right down to it, it doesn't really matter. The toning is either attractive or it isn't. If it is then it may or may not warrant a premium. What possible difference can the intent of the previous owner make? Perhaps the market tends to overvalue attractive original toning a little, but this is primarily due to problems being hidden by the toning. This is probably the biggest drive to tone the coins in the first place.
It may well be possible for an expert to spot the work of the individual coin doctors who's work he is familiar with, but bring in a new process or a new doctor and it will not be possible to tell with certainty.
The best way to stop this practice (if it needs stopped) is to grade the coin under the toning and not the toning. Only at this point a premium may be indicated.
Ahhh, but there is a difference between AT and original toning - one's in a slab and one isn't! One's eligible for Registry use and one isn't. One is liquid and one isn't.
Which is which? Why...the one in the slab is original!
" Ahhh, but there is a difference between AT and original toning - one's in a slab and one isn't! "
Tradedollarnut - I gotta tell you, what you said immediately above was excellent even though it was said, I believe, with tongue in cheek. David Hall and his competitors all desire to be respected and look like they know what they are doing and if I were to undertake the business endeavor of grading coins and hence, identifying artificial toning, I would expend a great deal of effort at doing it right so as not to look stupid, and also to maximize shareholder wealth by being the best. Rest assured, I believe that I could end up probably doing it fairly "right", after 15 years, better than part time collectors and full time dealers. It's what they do. And, as far as I'm concerned, if it's in a PCGS or NGC holder and it looks magnificent, IT IS FOR ME. ("Oh...... my......... God, adrian doesn't care whether it's original or not!!!!!!!?.............uh, close but not quite, actually really, really, really close......if it's good enough for PCGS or NGC, it's good enough for me, however, if I knew some person was toning coins and getting them into PCGS or NGC holders, I would avoid them.)
Why? The word is marketability. If PCGS or NGC has holdered it, ergo, determined that the toning isn't artificial, the collecting and dealing public will want it in proportion to it's beauty, and once it's holdered it's passed the inspection of some of the very best in the business. Generally speaking, the marketplace is the best determinant of many things. Who carries more authority than PCGS and NGC in determining the authenticity of toning?.......no one, and marketplace has made that so by voting with their dollars.
Incidentally, PCGS and NGC have inadvertently (I believe they have done it inadvertently) assisted us in determining the stability of the toning of many coins by changing their holders every few years. Got an old ANACS Roanoke in a holder that's 15 years old.....still makes you want to take your clothes off and run around.....probably won't "be black in a few years". Same thing with wonder coins in old NGC and PCGS holders.
i cannot get over how certian members (RUSS) attack others as soon as they mention AT'ing. Do you guys think if it isn't discussed it might go away? Or perhaps if it isn't discussed your AT'd coins might retain their value a bit longer before they are worthless?
I have a theory. I think AT coins done from the best coin doctors living today will be worth more than original toned coins someday. When these guys die off or fail to pass on their knowledge or simply have a "gift," it all ends when they die. The coins done from these masters will be a very high dollar market in the future. I think certain coin doctors leave their mark or signature on the coins they do.
Kind of like Van Gogh. He was not respected in his day.
Lets see in 20 years, in the meantime lets move on.
Intersting theory but what will prevent the fullfillment of basic economic theory - when there are profits to be made, someone will be drawn to make them.....i.e. when the docs die what will prevent someone from wanting to fill that vacuum?
The only way to stop CoinDr is to put him in an oven and AT him like he does to coins.. and if u were wondering those 2 little german dudes in that one fairy tale they were coin doctors too.
I think in time collectors, really the wisest and most at risk folks in numismatics, will begin to understand more about toning as this topic is going to explode on to the scene with books, CDs, etc., and the masters indirectly or directly will contribute until the pros like PCGS will learn to detect it. I think then it will stop and be replaced by "the next big thing" which will fill the economic vacuum.
I think knowledge of this segment of our industry is important, but I have my reservations about revealing too much information in so public a venue.
I know an actual coin doctor. Another dealer -- these two aren't friends -- once even mentioned to me that this guy is pretty good as far as coin doctoring is concerned.
Anyway, this dealer -- he's a coin doctor, but he's also a legit dealer and numismatist as well -- insisted that I learn more about this doctoring business so I can better protect myself against such abuses. One thing I never heard him say was how easy it is to perform this craft.
Wow! What a full morning of reading to catch up! Great stuff, from everyone. My opinion? You all know I had the opportunity, twice, about a year and a half ago of visiting with a Dealer friend who also knows how to repair coins and make them marketable. I didn't like the "message" so much, but did appreciate the information. A better informed Collector will enjoy this hobby more than those who choose to bury their heads in the sand.
I think though, with that said, we were fed some mis-information by coindr. Whether it was intentional or accidental, I find it difficult to believe NGC's new service can be compared to anything Doctors do and CD must be aware of that. It's a bit disingenuious of him to share ANYTHING with us if there is still cash to be made in what he does. Especially as flamed as he was.
My one concern: Factual or not, there is information to be learned- whether it is from CD or any one of us who respond to him- I hate to see any of it shut down. There are members on this Forum who remind me of that boorish Uncle who sits around the Thanksgiving table who has to comment on every topic, on statement made by others. They're usually the loudest yet truly with the least to share.
Topical and informative or not, CD had something to tell us and I'd like to have heard it in a forum that would provide full disclosure of information. THEN, let me decide if the information is valid or not without having to instantly have the Thread followed by "Troll Talk".
One last note: I have heard of the 'toothpick' test in the past and after a couple of attempts (I think the first time or so I had too much dip on the tip of it) it DID work! The tip of the toothpick must be sharp and the very tip/point the only contact with the coin. I went with the darkest part of the coin too- that helped. OLD AT though will show as genuine, so it must be on a suspect coin that has been Artifically Toned within the last year or so.
<< <i>i cannot get over how certian members (RUSS) attack others as soon as they mention AT'ing. >>
jmwarren,
You should probably pay a bit more attention to what's been going on. I couldn't care less about his claims to AT coins. I just won't take crap off keyboard jockeys. HINT: Read some of the other threads this loser has posted in.
<< <i>if he could tone coins with hot air, then maybe he is what he purports to be. >>
In the above sentence, Mike distilled perfectly the essence of this troll.
Braddick, that is one the best posts I've read on this Forum!!! Very well done.
There are many of us here that want to hear what informed collectors have to say. Then some limited knowledge, name-callers bust in and destroy the thread. They know who they are and I hope they will read and re-read your post.
The ones with limited knowledge are those that were not reading the forum last night. CD busted into several threads spreading all kinds of trash. He is not an informed collector. He is an idiot with mostly trash to distroy our forum. He is only here to cause problems, nothing more. Read his post before you defend him. His post should be anywhere but here. DCAM, do you ever get the point of anything? You seem to have a hard time understanding whats really being said by others. Hand around and read a little more. There is more to things than you are seeing. Just my flying cents worth.
I am, quite frankly, very confident that no one will ever be able to positively identify (as in objectively identify as opposed to subjectively identify) "artificial toning" on all coins because in order to identify it, you have to be able to define it (other than saying that artificial toning is toning which isn't original).
For example is setting a coin into an old Whitman folder and then setting it in the sun for 50 days, artificial toning? Some would say it is, others would say it is not. Assume that it is. You're going to tell me that somehow we are going to be able to objectively distinguish that window coin from one that sat in a whitman folder in a cool bank vault for 50 years? Uh....probably not.
And by the way, I have many toned coins. The comprise maybe 15-20% of my inventory and my coin and currency inventory isn't worth but a mere fraction of my law firm. (I'm telling you this so that you'll know that if monster toned coins drop in value, I won't loose any sleep - actually I would be happy because I could buy more at lower prices.) I have one coin, a PCGS MS68 $10 Indian that is probably worth more than all of my monster toned Morgans combined, so I am not super motivated to "defend" Monster toned coins as a safe collectible. In fact, if you look up "Collector" in the dictionary, the first definition is "one who forsakes safety for the utter ectasy of holding and gazing upon a monster toned magenta Morgan with DMPL 68 surfaces owned by GSAguy." I bet you don't believe me. Go look it up.
Larry, actually I did read most of what I could find and although many people demonstrated trollish behavior last night, from what I read, COINDR pretty much was more responsive to others flaming him (first). Maybe he should have backed down so as to avoid this label?
Again, I may have easily missed what you read so I clearly could be wrong- no problem admitting that. Just from what I did scope out it seemed pretty tame. Also, my "Troll" tolerance level is pretty high. It takes a lot for me to "turn-off" what someone is writing. Even through the muck I find I can learn something or other.
ldhair- I read everything the fellow had to say yesterday. After being called names and having disparaging comments made about him, he called a few spades spades. So what? That is not interrupting a thread. Some of the name callers interrupted HIS thread. Then other name callers created threads with disparaging remarks about CoinDr and he replied to their ridicule.
Today, you choose to try and dismiss the fellow as having no knowledge, yet you KNOW nothing about him. Your intolerance is unappreciated here. Take the time to read and you might find that he knows a great deal more than you. Or he might not. You should not jump to judgement with NO knowledge of the facts.
If you want to get information out of someone (for the purpose of the info or to determine their level of knowledge) being nice to them is one of the preferred methods. Of course once you have the info then you are more able to figure out what to do, attack, befriend, exploit, send flowers, block them, etc.
If we could "all just get along" we could spend more time getting to know each other and becoming friends (even if we don't agree on even important issues) and less time on conflicts. Yes, I know. But at least I'm trying.
DCAMFranklin Point well taken. I'm sure there were post I failed to catch. Possibly both of us. I have only been in the hobby for 40 years and I have much to learn. The past 5 or 10 have been the biggest challange of all. Wow, so many changes to the hobby. I really didnt dismiss CD's knowledge. I just have a problem with his actions on this board. I'm here to learn. Some are here not to teach or learn. Just to cause problems. My intolerance is only directed at those few. Those who teach have my greatest respect.
After saying all that I must admit I should look at things more as Braddick does. "Also, my "Troll" tolerance level is pretty high. It takes a lot for me to "turn-off" what someone is writing. Even through the muck I find I can learn something or other."
I will do my best to tolerate more of the BS in order to learn.
Adrian, it would be difficult to argue with your statement
<< <i>I am, quite frankly, very confident that no one will ever be able to positively identify (as in objectively identify as opposed to subjectively identify) "artificial toning" on all coins because in order to identify it, you have to be able to define it (other than saying that artificial toning is toning which isn't original >>
And, I'm not going to! I think your point above, along with your example below (way below, by the time I get finishd typing!) illustrate the difficulty that the grading services face (and that doesn't even include the efforts of more sophisticated, faster acting coin doctors).
So, what it comes down to, is marketability (which you also mentioned) of coins graded by the major grading companies AND market acceptance of various toning/color and toning/color patterns. "Market acceptability" or something along those lines, is a term I have heard used by some professional graders and I think that for purposes of this discussion, it fits. The answer to the question : What will the marketplace accept in terms of color?, is one, that in large part, determines what gets holdered/slabbed and what gets called questionable or artificial color. And, that answer is probably one that is not a constant and which will evolve over time. I'm not passing judgment here, merely making an observation.
<< <i>is setting a coin into an old Whitman folder and then setting it in the sun for 50 days, artificial toning? Some would say it is, others would say it is not. Assume that it is. You're going to tell me that somehow we are going to be able to objectively distinguish that window coin from one that sat in a whitman folder in a cool bank vault for 50 years? Uh....probably not >>
I have learned alot from this post and the entire forum. Maybe one of these days when I get my act together and put everything down that I have learned about toning in ink, I will be like clankeye because I will have to put all yall down as references in the footnotes for the quotes I'll be using. Sorry about the yall, but I am from Georgia. LOVE all YALL!! This forum is better -n- any magazine/book or documentary about numismatics. Thanks for all the sharing/b! tching/flaming/snooping/dogging/flogging helping/caring, all in all it's just like one big normal happy american family. Thanks Allen
Mark's observation about "market acceptability" makes total sense. It's the same issue as dipping - why is proper dipping acceptable but cleaning isn't (and "curating" is)? Because the market says so.
Dipping = removing toning: OK, provided the luster isn't stripped. The market says so. AT = adding toning: bad.
It's not quite logical. The controversy is because of the amount of dollars involved with genuinely toned monsters vs. AT monsters.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
kranky, personally, I would make a distinction between dipping (or somehow removing something from the surface of a coin) and purposely adding toning or other substances in order to make the coin look better and/or conceal problems, imperfections, etc. To some, none of that is acceptable. To others, anything goes.
Hi everyone, Boy, what a great discussion. Does anyone have a 50lb bag of copper sulfate? LOL You know, it's the stuff used in pools or ponds to eat algae. It can also discolor copper. Most coins have some degree of copper in them, even gold or is that silver. Well, silver can tone as well. Add a little heat and humidity and walla, artificial toning! It's not that easy though. It's best to experiment on some worthless coins first and see what works. There is a great deal of information on the internet, I suppose, I know there are books that say a thing or two about this subject. Do you know you can change the surfaces of a coin with vineger. Or with just about anything for that matter. We all should know what water does to metal, it causes it to rust. Humidity is like water. So after a year or two of experimenting with a combination of the varibles, one might learn how to recreate an enviornment to artificially tone a coin in a most beautiful way. Now doesn't that all sound nice and rosey. On the flipside it's OK to clean a ugly coin and we all know how a white brilliant coin sells better then a slightly ugly coin. Even the profesional graders practice this dipping of coins to make the coin more beautiful and sell at a higher price. So why not artificially tone a coin to sell it at a higher price. I'm only adding my personal opinion on the subject. We can't cover our eyes, ears and tongues in hopes that it would simply go away. I would ask myself this question though. How many times have you turned a coin down because there was something wrong with it. Many, many times my friends. So what is a dealer to do to make that coin sell..... oops....that could be another topic. But let me say this, I think most here would be amazed at what can be done to dress up a coin and how wide spread it is. We even have a company who will clean or restore that coin for you and then they get certified. Lastly, in my own defense, I don't artificially tone coins. I did look into how to remove copper carbonate spots from coins and with that, one just might need to touch a coin up to help cover up a spot or two to save face as one might say or someone's arse if it involves lots of moola. If we were all so perfect and heavenly blessed than I would think we would be singing together in harmony to our lord.
Leo (take a bow)
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I've said this a million times and I'll say it again: I don't think it matters a damn bit if a coin has been AT'd or not. If you like the coin, buy it at whatever price YOU think is right. If you don't like the coin...pass.
The only issue MAY be the long term effects on coins. Fact is, all coins are going to turn black eventually (at least silver will) unless dipped so what's the big deal?
I bought two AT 1877 trade dollars. One was raw and one was in a PCGS MS64 holder. Know what? - I like the raw one better! It's an awesome coin and the seller (who I trust) has owned it since 1992. He bought it from a small auction from an estate. Personally, I question whether it's AT or not, but the bottom line is that it's stable - at least 10 years in the same condition. So it really doesn't matter much in the end - I like the coin and it's stable. Does anything else really matter?
TDN, if 1) your comment was in reference to having spent $125,000 on a coin and 2) the coin was the 1894-S dime that has been discussed recently, I'm very impressed!
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
Comments
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
<< <i>The last thing we need are the methods discused here...I can see the value in learning how to spot AT but the methods should be kept quite. >>
the methods should be discussed. the knowledge won't harm anyone. there is one guy that posts here occassionally that uses accellerated toning to make coins. does a nice job, too! he's shared a bit of his knowledge and it was quite interesting. knowledge is power.
Frank
two, and when you get right down to it, it doesn't really matter. The toning is either attractive
or it isn't. If it is then it may or may not warrant a premium. What possible difference can the
intent of the previous owner make? Perhaps the market tends to overvalue attractive original
toning a little, but this is primarily due to problems being hidden by the toning. This is probably
the biggest drive to tone the coins in the first place.
It may well be possible for an expert to spot the work of the individual coin doctors who's work
he is familiar with, but bring in a new process or a new doctor and it will not be possible to tell
with certainty.
The best way to stop this practice (if it needs stopped) is to grade the coin under the toning and
not the toning. Only at this point a premium may be indicated.
Which is which? Why...the one in the slab is original!
<< <i>Which is which? Why...the one in the slab is original! >>
Tradedollarnut - I gotta tell you, what you said immediately above was excellent even though it was said, I believe, with tongue in cheek. David Hall and his competitors all desire to be respected and look like they know what they are doing and if I were to undertake the business endeavor of grading coins and hence, identifying artificial toning, I would expend a great deal of effort at doing it right so as not to look stupid, and also to maximize shareholder wealth by being the best. Rest assured, I believe that I could end up probably doing it fairly "right", after 15 years, better than part time collectors and full time dealers. It's what they do. And, as far as I'm concerned, if it's in a PCGS or NGC holder and it looks magnificent, IT IS FOR ME. ("Oh...... my......... God, adrian doesn't care whether it's original or not!!!!!!!?.............uh, close but not quite, actually really, really, really close......if it's good enough for PCGS or NGC, it's good enough for me, however, if I knew some person was toning coins and getting them into PCGS or NGC holders, I would avoid them.)
Why? The word is marketability. If PCGS or NGC has holdered it, ergo, determined that the toning isn't artificial, the collecting and dealing public will want it in proportion to it's beauty, and once it's holdered it's passed the inspection of some of the very best in the business. Generally speaking, the marketplace is the best determinant of many things. Who carries more authority than PCGS and NGC in determining the authenticity of toning?.......no one, and marketplace has made that so by voting with their dollars.
Incidentally, PCGS and NGC have inadvertently (I believe they have done it inadvertently) assisted us in determining the stability of the toning of many coins by changing their holders every few years. Got an old ANACS Roanoke in a holder that's 15 years old.....still makes you want to take your clothes off and run around.....probably won't "be black in a few years". Same thing with wonder coins in old NGC and PCGS holders.
Just a thought from your neighborhood serpent.
adrian
Kind of like Van Gogh. He was not respected in his day.
Lets see in 20 years, in the meantime lets move on.
Thanks
adrian
Mark
I think knowledge of this segment of our industry is important, but I have my reservations about revealing too much information in so public a venue.
I know an actual coin doctor. Another dealer -- these two aren't friends -- once even mentioned to me that this guy is pretty good as far as coin doctoring is concerned.
Anyway, this dealer -- he's a coin doctor, but he's also a legit dealer and numismatist as well -- insisted that I learn more about this doctoring business so I can better protect myself against such abuses. One thing I never heard him say was how easy it is to perform this craft.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I didn't like the "message" so much, but did appreciate the information.
A better informed Collector will enjoy this hobby more than those who choose to bury their heads in the sand.
I think though, with that said, we were fed some mis-information by coindr. Whether it was intentional or accidental, I find it difficult to believe NGC's new service can be compared to anything Doctors do and CD must be aware of that.
It's a bit disingenuious of him to share ANYTHING with us if there is still cash to be made in what he does. Especially as flamed as he was.
My one concern: Factual or not, there is information to be learned- whether it is from CD or any one of us who respond to him- I hate to see any of it shut down.
There are members on this Forum who remind me of that boorish Uncle who sits around the Thanksgiving table who has to comment on every topic, on statement made by others. They're usually the loudest yet truly with the least to share.
Topical and informative or not, CD had something to tell us and I'd like to have heard it in a forum that would provide full disclosure of information. THEN, let me decide if the information is valid or not without having to instantly have the Thread followed by "Troll Talk".
One last note: I have heard of the 'toothpick' test in the past and after a couple of attempts (I think the first time or so I had too much dip on the tip of it) it DID work! The tip of the toothpick must be sharp and the very tip/point the only contact with the coin. I went with the darkest part of the coin too- that helped. OLD AT though will show as genuine, so it must be on a suspect coin that has been Artifically Toned within the last year or so.
peacockcoins
<< <i>i cannot get over how certian members (RUSS) attack others as soon as they mention AT'ing. >>
jmwarren,
You should probably pay a bit more attention to what's been going on. I couldn't care less about his claims to AT coins. I just won't take crap off keyboard jockeys. HINT: Read some of the other threads this loser has posted in.
<< <i>if he could tone coins with hot air, then maybe he is what he purports to be. >>
In the above sentence, Mike distilled perfectly the essence of this troll.
Russ, NCNE
There are many of us here that want to hear what informed collectors have to say. Then some limited knowledge, name-callers bust in and destroy the thread. They know who they are and I hope they will read and re-read your post.
Camelot
For example is setting a coin into an old Whitman folder and then setting it in the sun for 50 days, artificial toning? Some would say it is, others would say it is not. Assume that it is. You're going to tell me that somehow we are going to be able to objectively distinguish that window coin from one that sat in a whitman folder in a cool bank vault for 50 years? Uh....probably not.
And by the way, I have many toned coins. The comprise maybe 15-20% of my inventory and my coin and currency inventory isn't worth but a mere fraction of my law firm. (I'm telling you this so that you'll know that if monster toned coins drop in value, I won't loose any sleep - actually I would be happy because I could buy more at lower prices.) I have one coin, a PCGS MS68 $10 Indian that is probably worth more than all of my monster toned Morgans combined, so I am not super motivated to "defend" Monster toned coins as a safe collectible. In fact, if you look up "Collector" in the dictionary, the first definition is "one who forsakes safety for the utter ectasy of holding and gazing upon a monster toned magenta Morgan with DMPL 68 surfaces owned by GSAguy." I bet you don't believe me. Go look it up.
adrian
Adrian, I only get those in the summer.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Maybe he should have backed down so as to avoid this label?
Again, I may have easily missed what you read so I clearly could be wrong- no problem admitting that. Just from what I did scope out it seemed pretty tame.
Also, my "Troll" tolerance level is pretty high. It takes a lot for me to "turn-off" what someone is writing. Even through the muck I find I can learn something or other.
peacockcoins
adrian
I read everything the fellow had to say yesterday. After being called names and having disparaging comments made about him, he called a few spades spades. So what? That is not interrupting a thread. Some of the name callers interrupted HIS thread. Then other name callers created threads with disparaging remarks about CoinDr and he replied to their ridicule.
Today, you choose to try and dismiss the fellow as having no knowledge, yet you KNOW nothing about him. Your intolerance is unappreciated here. Take the time to read and you might find that he knows a great deal more than you. Or he might not. You should not jump to judgement with NO knowledge of the facts.
If we could "all just get along" we could spend more time getting to know each other and becoming friends (even if we don't agree on even important issues) and less time on conflicts. Yes, I know. But at least I'm trying.
snake
Point well taken. I'm sure there were post I failed to catch. Possibly both of us. I have only been in the hobby for 40 years and I have much to learn. The past 5 or 10 have been the biggest challange of all. Wow, so many changes to the hobby. I really didnt dismiss CD's knowledge. I just have a problem with his actions on this board. I'm here to learn. Some are here not to teach or learn. Just to cause problems. My intolerance is only directed at those few. Those who teach have my greatest respect.
After saying all that I must admit I should look at things more as Braddick does. "Also, my "Troll" tolerance level is pretty high. It takes a lot for me to "turn-off" what someone is writing. Even through the muck I find I can learn something or other."
I will do my best to tolerate more of the BS in order to learn.
<< <i>I am, quite frankly, very confident that no one will ever be able to positively identify (as in objectively identify as opposed to subjectively identify) "artificial toning" on all coins because in order to identify it, you have to be able to define it (other than saying that artificial toning is toning which isn't original >>
And, I'm not going to! I think your point above, along with your example below (way below, by the time I get finishd typing!) illustrate the difficulty that the grading services face (and that doesn't even include the efforts of more sophisticated, faster acting coin doctors).
So, what it comes down to, is marketability (which you also mentioned) of coins graded by the major grading companies AND market acceptance of various toning/color and toning/color patterns. "Market acceptability" or something along those lines, is a term I have heard used by some professional graders and I think that for purposes of this discussion, it fits. The answer to the question : What will the marketplace accept in terms of color?, is one, that in large part, determines what gets holdered/slabbed and what gets called questionable or artificial color. And, that answer is probably one that is not a constant and which will evolve over time. I'm not passing judgment here, merely making an observation.
<< <i>is setting a coin into an old Whitman folder and then setting it in the sun for 50 days, artificial toning? Some would say it is, others would say it is not. Assume that it is. You're going to tell me that somehow we are going to be able to objectively distinguish that window coin from one that sat in a whitman folder in a cool bank vault for 50 years? Uh....probably not >>
helping/caring, all in all it's just like one big normal happy american family.
Thanks
Allen
Proud member of TCCS!
Dipping = removing toning: OK, provided the luster isn't stripped. The market says so.
AT = adding toning: bad.
It's not quite logical. The controversy is because of the amount of dollars involved with genuinely toned monsters vs. AT monsters.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Boy, what a great discussion. Does anyone have a 50lb bag of copper sulfate? LOL You know, it's the stuff used in pools or ponds to eat algae. It can also discolor copper. Most coins have some degree of copper in them, even gold or is that silver. Well, silver can tone as well. Add a little heat and humidity and walla, artificial toning!
It's not that easy though. It's best to experiment on some worthless coins first and see what works. There is a great deal of information on the internet, I suppose, I know there are books that say a thing or two about this subject. Do you know you can change the surfaces of a coin with vineger. Or with just about anything for that matter. We all should know what water does to metal, it causes it to rust. Humidity is like water.
So after a year or two of experimenting with a combination of the varibles, one might learn how to recreate an enviornment to artificially tone a coin in a most beautiful way. Now doesn't that all sound nice and rosey. On the flipside it's OK to clean a ugly coin and we all know how a white brilliant coin sells better then a slightly ugly coin. Even the profesional graders practice this dipping of coins to make the coin more beautiful and sell at a higher price. So why not artificially tone a coin to sell it at a higher price. I'm only adding my personal opinion on the subject. We can't
cover our eyes, ears and tongues in hopes that it would simply go away. I would ask myself this question though. How many times have you turned a coin down because there was something wrong with it. Many, many times my friends. So what is a dealer to do to make that coin sell.....
oops....that could be another topic. But let me say this, I think most here would be amazed at
what can be done to dress up a coin and how wide spread it is. We even have a company who will clean or restore that coin for you and then they get certified.
Lastly, in my own defense, I don't artificially tone coins. I did look into how to remove copper carbonate spots from coins and with that, one just might need to touch a coin up to help cover up a spot or two to save face as one might say or someone's arse if it involves lots of moola.
If we were all so perfect and heavenly blessed than I would think we would be singing together in harmony to our lord.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
adrian
Just wait til January - then the world will know!
The only issue MAY be the long term effects on coins. Fact is, all coins are going to turn black eventually (at least silver will) unless dipped so what's the big deal?
jom
nevermind
Are you the secret owner of the 1933 Saint?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!