Thank you for the purposeful and informative posts to this thread. You confirmed in several instances what I knew but had never analyzed. I knew graders (NGC and PCGS) net graded, and I don't mean that in a negative or controversial way. The decision to accept any coin that had ever been cleaned would require such a compromise. That would necessarily include dipped coins if detectable.
To me, coin collecting is an emotional response to beauty, and not a scientific endeavor. I guess the technical grade is important, but the funniest thing about grading to me is that while we are so focused on the technical specifics of a coin, Sheldons scale seems to me to have been an attempt to describe the eye appeal of the coin. There are ugly, stained MS64's that I wouldn't want to own, and there are full luster, good strike MS64's that anyone would love. Knowing this, the holder number seems far less significant, except for resale. I would much prefer the grade represented eye appeal.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I was under the impression that PCGS did not net grade coins,
I was under the same misperception apparently all the grading services net grade without notation on label if it's considered "light cleaning". The pamphlet I got from PCGS states clearly what they no-grade, "excessive cleaning" is the exact wording. Determining what constitutes "excessive" and "light" cleaning is a crap shoot IMHO, a lot like determining AT on some coins. In the picture below, the only coin that hasn't been abrasively cleaned is the ICG graded one. The PCGS slabbed coin has been cleaned recently, and obviously doesn't have an "original skin", though it does possess MS details. The other three have "original skins" but in the case of the ANACS and PCI coins, it's on top of an old abrasive cleaning (they've retoned, in other words). The ICG coin has diminished luster, perhaps from an old overdip (hard to tell, also retoned), but it has never been abrasively cleaned and should have gone MS61 (I sent in back when ICG was still tough... intercept shield gasket was mandatory.) All four could be body-bagged, if I cracked them out and resubmitted today. In a way, if you get a borderline coin like that slabbed by PCGS, even undergraded a little, it's a gift. I recently had a nicely toned 1819 Ionian Islands 2 Oboli come back 55 that I thought was AU58. After closer inspection, think it might have had some "crust" removed after soaking in olive oil. Since it's for my personal collection (as are all the Peruvian Soles pictured), I'm just glad to have it slabbed by PCGS
Are you able to get those 4 coins this thread originated about - scanned?,to show us all here.... we may all learn a few things...........it would be interesting to get the various opinions from all the experts we have on board!!
I have no idea what PCGS has been up to in the last year but there has been a definitive shift to more conservative grades on all the fronts I have seen. IMO this is the new green label days. People 3 years from now will pay a premium for graded coins in a blue label with a 9 starting the cert #. The coins that do come out well, say a MS67RD lincoln these days are truly coins to be purchased. Smart buyers will look for under graded coins in recent slabs.
To tell the truth the grades PCGS is giving on Lincoln's is more to tune with what I thought a 66RD is or was for that matter. The problem I see is the difference between last year and this year. Consistency should always be the name of the game. I do believe that they are tight now and were light last year. This is a problem because the entire purpose of sending a coin in for grading is so that it has a resale value sight unseen. When you don't know if a coin is an MS66R by your experience with PCGS coins because of the time period it was graded it makes matters worse. I know its impossible but I wish PCGS would take all coins already graded and bring them up to standard.
I see sets like Stewart Blays on the registry board and hunt through countless rolls and original coins to even come close and its impossible. Recently I went through, not joking, 12 original rolls of 1935 lincolns, all in extreme BU condition. I have 2 MS67's that I have made previously, so I picked 5 coins that were superior than my current 2 MS67's. Of the 5 I sent in 3. All came back MS66RD. That is the issue now, are the coins graded in past years not what they seem or are the coins graded now more than they seem.
To tell the truth I really don't know. I have a recent BB from a PCGS 1919 MS65RD cent for QC? Go figure.
Thanks Russ, I lived in Peru in 1976 (missed all the Bicentennial stuff here in USA ) so have developed a special attraction to the coinage of Peru Three different designs on Soles pictured; those Peruvians took their seated liberty design seriously They've got problem with leftist extremists (radical socialists) down there right now, which never makes the news on CNN, for some reason... but it's a beautiful country. Walking the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu is an experience I find hard to even describe
<< <i>is a problem because the entire purpose of sending a coin in for grading is so that it has a resale value sight unseen >>
Would you pay over $10K sight unseen for a PCGS PR66 Barber Quarter lets say? I certainly wouldn't, PCGS or whatever! That might work for stuff like generic gold, but I'll bet rarities are not commonly purchased that way.
It's easy to grade a modern, just off the mint state quarter PR69DCAM and provide a guarentee because the next lower grade value is not that significantly different. From what I heard, PCGS's parent company's stock is just about done trading on NASDAQ due to the stock price being under $1 for a while, so this might be a reason why they are tightening their grading on rarer pieces that stand to loose (meaning PCGS pays out) a substantial value if a grade dispute arises.
the whole sight-unseen nonsense was the major cause of the coin-market crash of 1989. why would anyone want that again?
<< <i>I have no idea what PCGS has been up to in the last year but there has been a definitive shift to more conservative grades on all the fronts I have seen >>
undergrading is as damaging as overgrading coins, AND pcgs does not guarantee against undergraded coins.
This whole thread speaks volumes regarding the fallacies of third party grading. Why do so many other threads say "look what PCGS did FOR me" or "look what PCGS did TO me", followed either by "congratulations, great job" or "you poor loser, you must have hit them on a bad day".
If the coin is still the same, what difference does it make what it says on the holder?
If a dealer offers a coin to me for sale, and if I can't determine whether or not the price is fair based on how much more it will cost me for a nicer example AND what kind of quality I can get for less money than is being quoted, than I am not smart enough to buy the coin.
The crash of the 1988-90 market had nothing to do with the fact that coins were being traded sight unseen. The grading was every bit as consistent as it was today. Probably far better. The real reason was like anything else.....supply and demand. The supply of coins kept on increasing and the demand for them waned. People bought on hype just like they did in stocks from 1997-1999. The stock market calls it "rumor." The dream of wall street coin funds evaporated. The recession starting around 1990 was the final nail in the coffin. Sight unseen trading had nothing at all to do with it.
Hey Wic., Yeah I have had the same problem as well. 1902 Indian head penny, came back body bagged for cleaning, sent again, body bag again, sent again MS63, sent again, body bag, sent again MS65RD. I finally got what I wanted and spent like $70 bucks. It really can be a pain in the neck. Hey just think when you sell and have them reslabbed by NGC like I do they usually go up a grade. I have had about 80% luck that way. Better luck next time. Know how you feel. BobbyD
I have been collecting high grade Morgan Dollars and Franklin Halves for about 25 to 30 years. I had considered myself skilled in grading these series. Within the past 3-4 years I have submitted hundreds of coins from my collection (purchased many years ago and "unslabbed") to PCGS. About two or three years ago I thought that the coins, in general, were being returned by this firm as graded within reasonable accuracy. I was fortunate to receive back several coins in the finest known graded category for their date and mint mark. However, over the past year or so, coins that I have submitted for grading to PCGS have seemed to become the object of very severe, overly conservative and unforgiving judgement even beyond what a strict grader such as myself would expect. Is it, perhaps, that within the past year or so the graders themselves have changed, been trained differently or are they being instructed to be purposely harsh or unmerciful if they have any doubts?
I realize all grading is subjective, but how do they get two out of three graders to be off on things. I would think that new graders would be teamed up with two experienced graders so even if they were off, the other two would keep it all in check.
BobbyD..That is just unbelievable that such things could take place. I guess if you have the time and money to keep submitting, like you say you may just get trhe grade you want. Like I said earlier in this thread. They should just keep a charge card on file and submit it over aqnd over agian while in their posession. They could email the grade and we either say yes, or try again and it goes right back in the system..Sure would save on time and postage. Ha Ha
Wisconsin- Why not take a couple of the most undergraded coins, in your opinion, and send them along with your next group to NGC and see how they grade over there. I would be interested in the results.
I am not sure I would do any better there. I will be the first to admit, it is probably my grading that is off and not theirs, but what really has me puzzled is the body bag thing. First it is then it isn't. I have always liked PCGS holders better than NGC. Just personal preference, so I have not sent anything to them so far, but I might add Their picture thing has me interested. It seems like a lot of money to spend to get pictures and a story about your coin, but would be easier to look at the coin than going to the safe depostit box.
Chalk up another one for shifting sands of grading opinions. You got the touters of raw "rare" coins which are a landmine since they are ungraded and uncertified at one corner and the graded and certified stuff that can go from Bodybag to MS-65 from one day to the next. In both cases, if the coin is a rare series, tens of thousands of dollars could be at stake. Maybe they should issue another Pittman act and end the controversy?
Recommended reading - The PCGS Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection and The Coin Collector's Survival Manual and NCI Grading Guide For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
Fair, reliable & CONSISTENT grading practices would be a much better alternative. Credibility at PCGS has been seriously damaged. Why subject yourself and your coins to these lousy business practices??
A long day at work and look what I miss! I have not submitted anything for at least a year and a half. I know some dealers & listen to them.
I remember the "bad old days," when a coin you bought from a dealer was "BU" and it was a 'slider' when you went to sell it. I got back into collecting 4 years ago due to the grading services. I have all of the problems with them that have been listed in this thread, and then some, but for me, the slab is a place to start.
If a coin is not attractive to me for the grade, I'm not interested, period. I will not buy a raw coin; ever.
When possible, I'll go to a large show and look at the coin on my buy list (ie., an MS 64 Trade $), and try to see as many of them as possible. It's always informative. Even when I'm looking for something like a MS 65 RB Braided Hair Half Cent (yes, 2 years later, I'm still looking for one), I can tell the difference between a nice coin and a "how the he** did that get into a 5 holder" coin.
The grading services do cut a lot of slack to many older (Capped Bust and prior) coins. If these coins were cleaned a long time ago and the cleaning doesn't look too bad, they're slabbed, some in MS 60 plus holders. I've yet to see a Capped Bust (small dentil) quarter in an MS 64 holder that was IMO an honest 64. The last one I saw practically screamed "I am AT" at me with its orange and purple toning.
Hope this helps.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>The crash of the 1988-90 market had nothing to do with the fact that coins were being traded sight unseen. The grading was every bit as consistent as it was today. Probably far better. The real reason was like anything else.....supply and demand. The supply of coins kept on increasing and the demand for them waned. People bought on hype just like they did in stocks from 1997-1999. The stock market calls it "rumor." The dream of wall street coin funds evaporated. The recession starting around 1990 was the final nail in the coffin. Sight unseen trading had nothing at all to do with it. >>
roadrunner, i think i agree w/ what you said. but my recollection was loudmouthed dealers (really more like "pushers") shouting at length about the glories of slabbed coins, & how you didnt have to know anything any more about coins to buy into them as an investment. is my memory clouded up on this 1? seems like a lot of folks, including myself got nailed.
roadrunner, i think i agree w/ what you said. but my recollection was loudmouthed dealers (really more like "pushers") shouting at length about the glories of slabbed coins, & how you didnt have to know anything any more about coins to buy into them as an investment. is my memory clouded up on this 1? seems like a lot of folks, including myself got nailed.
Nope your mind is not clouded as that was the theory put forth by all the hypsters/dealers who were pushing their common date 81-S morgans slabbed MS65 by PCGS for around $500 a piece. All you had to do was look at the pop reports and you could see how these RARE coins with pops of only a few hundred or a thousand so they were no doubt great investments since so many people wanted them but only a lucky few could own such a rare coin. Sure sounds a lot like some of the stuff you hear about today.
Comments
Thank you for the purposeful and informative posts to this thread. You confirmed in several instances what I knew but had never analyzed. I knew graders (NGC and PCGS) net graded, and I don't mean that in a negative or controversial way. The decision to accept any coin that had ever been cleaned would require such a compromise. That would necessarily include dipped coins if detectable.
To me, coin collecting is an emotional response to beauty, and not a scientific endeavor. I guess the technical grade is important, but the funniest thing about grading to me is that while we are so focused on the technical specifics of a coin, Sheldons scale seems to me to have been an attempt to describe the eye appeal of the coin. There are ugly, stained MS64's that I wouldn't want to own, and there are full luster, good strike MS64's that anyone would love. Knowing this, the holder number seems far less significant, except for resale. I would much prefer the grade represented eye appeal.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I was under the same misperception
scan of Soles I didn't tweak, raw/unfiltered off scanner.
Those Peru coins are pretty cool. They look kind of like Trade Dollars.
Russ, NCNE
Are you able to get those 4 coins this thread originated about - scanned?,to show us all here.... we may all learn a few things...........it would be interesting to get the various opinions from all the experts we have on board!!
Marc
To tell the truth the grades PCGS is giving on Lincoln's is more to tune with what I thought a 66RD is or was for that matter. The problem I see is the difference between last year and this year. Consistency should always be the name of the game. I do believe that they are tight now and were light last year. This is a problem because the entire purpose of sending a coin in for grading is so that it has a resale value sight unseen. When you don't know if a coin is an MS66R by your experience with PCGS coins because of the time period it was graded it makes matters worse. I know its impossible but I wish PCGS would take all coins already graded and bring them up to standard.
I see sets like Stewart Blays on the registry board and hunt through countless rolls and original coins to even come close and its impossible. Recently I went through, not joking, 12 original rolls of 1935 lincolns, all in extreme BU condition. I have 2 MS67's that I have made previously, so I picked 5 coins that were superior than my current 2 MS67's. Of the 5 I sent in 3. All came back MS66RD. That is the issue now, are the coins graded in past years not what they seem or are the coins graded now more than they seem.
To tell the truth I really don't know. I have a recent BB from a PCGS 1919 MS65RD cent for QC? Go figure.
Brian
Thanks Russ, I lived in Peru in 1976 (missed all the Bicentennial stuff here in USA
<< <i>is a problem because the entire purpose of sending a coin in for grading is so that it has a resale value sight unseen >>
Would you pay over $10K sight unseen for a PCGS PR66 Barber Quarter lets say? I certainly wouldn't, PCGS or whatever! That might work for stuff like generic gold, but I'll bet rarities are not commonly purchased that way.
It's easy to grade a modern, just off the mint state quarter PR69DCAM and provide a guarentee because the next lower grade value is not that significantly different. From what I heard, PCGS's parent company's stock is just about done trading on NASDAQ due to the stock price being under $1 for a while, so this might be a reason why they are tightening their grading on rarer pieces that stand to loose (meaning PCGS pays out) a substantial value if a grade dispute arises.
<< <i>I have no idea what PCGS has been up to in the last year but there has been a definitive shift to more conservative grades on all the fronts I have seen >>
undergrading is as damaging as overgrading coins, AND pcgs does not guarantee against undergraded coins.
K S
If the coin is still the same, what difference does it make what it says on the holder?
If a dealer offers a coin to me for sale, and if I can't determine whether or not the price is fair based on how much more it will cost me for a nicer example AND what kind of quality I can get for less money than is being quoted, than I am not smart enough to buy the coin.
The crash of the 1988-90 market had nothing to do with the fact that coins were being traded sight unseen. The grading was every bit as consistent as it was today. Probably far better. The real reason was like anything else.....supply and demand. The supply of coins kept on increasing and the demand for them waned. People bought on hype just like they did in stocks from 1997-1999. The stock market calls it "rumor." The dream of wall street coin funds evaporated. The recession starting around 1990 was the final nail in the coffin. Sight unseen trading had nothing at all to do with it.
roadrunner
Yeah I have had the same problem as well. 1902 Indian head penny, came back body bagged for cleaning, sent again, body bag again, sent again MS63, sent again, body bag, sent again MS65RD. I finally got what I wanted and spent like $70 bucks. It really can be a pain in the neck. Hey just think when you sell and have them reslabbed by NGC like I do they usually go up a grade. I have had about 80% luck that way. Better luck next time. Know how you feel.
BobbyD
Commemorative_Set
Sacagawea Set
BobbyD..That is just unbelievable that such things could take place. I guess if you have the time and money to keep submitting, like you say you may just get trhe grade you want. Like I said earlier in this thread. They should just keep a charge card on file and submit it over aqnd over agian while in their posession. They could email the grade and we either say yes, or try again and it goes right back in the system..Sure would save on time and postage. Ha Ha
Why not take a couple of the most undergraded coins, in your opinion, and send them along with your next group to NGC and see how they grade over there. I would be interested in the results.
I am not sure I would do any better there. I will be the first to admit, it is probably my grading that is off and not theirs, but what really has me puzzled is the body bag thing. First it is then it isn't. I have always liked PCGS holders better than NGC. Just personal preference, so I have not sent anything to them so far, but I might add Their picture thing has me interested. It seems like a lot of money to spend to get pictures and a story about your coin, but would be easier to look at the coin than going to the safe depostit box.
Jay
For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
I remember the "bad old days," when a coin you bought from a dealer was "BU" and it was a 'slider' when you went to sell it. I got back into collecting 4 years ago due to the grading services. I have all of the problems with them that have been listed in this thread, and then some, but for me, the slab is a place to start.
If a coin is not attractive to me for the grade, I'm not interested, period. I will not buy a raw coin; ever.
When possible, I'll go to a large show and look at the coin on my buy list (ie., an MS 64 Trade $), and try to see as many of them as possible. It's always informative. Even when I'm looking for something like a MS 65 RB Braided Hair Half Cent (yes, 2 years later, I'm still looking for one), I can tell the difference between a nice coin and a "how the he** did that get into a 5 holder" coin.
The grading services do cut a lot of slack to many older (Capped Bust and prior) coins. If these coins were cleaned a long time ago and the cleaning doesn't look too bad, they're slabbed, some in MS 60 plus holders. I've yet to see a Capped Bust (small dentil) quarter in an MS 64 holder that was IMO an honest 64. The last one I saw practically screamed "I am AT" at me with its orange and purple toning.
Hope this helps.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>The crash of the 1988-90 market had nothing to do with the fact that coins were being traded sight unseen. The grading was every bit as consistent as it was today. Probably far better. The real reason was like anything else.....supply and demand. The supply of coins kept on increasing and the demand for them waned. People bought on hype just like they did in stocks from 1997-1999. The stock market calls it "rumor." The dream of wall street coin funds evaporated. The recession starting around 1990 was the final nail in the coffin. Sight unseen trading had nothing at all to do with it. >>
roadrunner, i think i agree w/ what you said. but my recollection was loudmouthed dealers (really more like "pushers") shouting at length about the glories of slabbed coins, & how you didnt have to know anything any more about coins to buy into them as an investment. is my memory clouded up on this 1? seems like a lot of folks, including myself got nailed.
K S
Nope your mind is not clouded as that was the theory put forth by all the hypsters/dealers who were pushing their common date 81-S morgans slabbed MS65 by PCGS for around $500 a piece. All you had to do was look at the pop reports and you could see how these RARE coins with pops of only a few hundred or a thousand so they were no doubt great investments since so many people wanted them but only a lucky few could own such a rare coin. Sure sounds a lot like some of the stuff you hear about today.