I've lost confidence in PCGS -Latest Submission
Wisconsin
Posts: 645
Hello all,
Here are my latest results from PCGS. The one good thing I can say is it was fast!!
PCGS Order Status for Invoice # 3082276
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY GRADE
1 40024171 1831 50C XF45
2 40024172 1919-S 25C Cleaning
3 40024173 1853 1C AU53BN
4 40024174 1859-O 50C AU53
Date Received: 10/21/2002
Date Shipped: 11/01/2002
Ok, I will start with the 1831 Bust Half. I cracked this out of a PCI holder where it was AU58. The coin is fully lusterous with just a touch of rub on obverse bust. The reverse is mint. It is as nice as most MS halves you will see. I thought no way could it be less than AU55 even with the strict PCGS standards. How they got XF45 out of this one is a mystery to me.
1919-S Quarter. I just bought this one, but to me it looked full mintstate with maybe some rub. I bought as Au58 and thought it was for sure that good. I will have to submit again for a grade I sapose. Read the next one and you will see why.
1853 Large Cent Au53Bn.. Great coin in my opinion. I bought as AU and thought it was for sure Au58. I sent it in a month ago and it was body bagged for cleaning. I could not see how or why, so I gambled and re-submited it. Now it is Au53. I am at leat glad it is slabbed now.
1859-O Half-- cracked out of ANACS Au58. Super coin all the way and looks full mintstate. I can live with the grade after all it is the coin I bought.
What has me really disturbed it the former body bag being graded this time. I personally thought it should have been last time. How does it go from cleaned to not. I can only figure that one person says it is cleaned and is bagged on the spot. I can't believe two out of three graders call it cleaned one time and then not the next. I can't see how it is possible. I can see how grading MS coins can be tough between a 64-65-66 etc., but should not all graders be able to at least tell if a coin is cleaned or not??
How my bust half got the Xf grade is another strange one, but who knows. Maybe I got the new graders for the week.
I was wondering if maybe they would change the submission sheets to save on postage. If a coin is body bagged they can just charge my card again and run it through the system until somebody finally will grade it. This would save us all quite a bit of postage.
So now I have an 1853 large cent in a PCGS holder. Is it cleaned and in the holder?? Who really knows. I guess for that matter why would anyone care what their opinon is. Why buy slabs. Is it to self assure us that we did the right thing??? How can you be happy with a slab when you know the grades can be so far off that maybe it is also cleaned or over, or under graded. When I collected coins in 2x2's I could come to my own conclusions about condition and be happy as a lark. Now I have slabbed coins around that are saposably proffesionally graded that are no better than my own opinions.
I am frustrated with this system and this is my 2nd submission. I can't wait to see what happens next week to the trade dollar I cracked out of a PCGS Au 58 holder. Is it cleaned this time???, Ms 63 now, or maybe it is just XF45. I will let you know how it works out.
Here are my latest results from PCGS. The one good thing I can say is it was fast!!
PCGS Order Status for Invoice # 3082276
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY GRADE
1 40024171 1831 50C XF45
2 40024172 1919-S 25C Cleaning
3 40024173 1853 1C AU53BN
4 40024174 1859-O 50C AU53
Date Received: 10/21/2002
Date Shipped: 11/01/2002
Ok, I will start with the 1831 Bust Half. I cracked this out of a PCI holder where it was AU58. The coin is fully lusterous with just a touch of rub on obverse bust. The reverse is mint. It is as nice as most MS halves you will see. I thought no way could it be less than AU55 even with the strict PCGS standards. How they got XF45 out of this one is a mystery to me.
1919-S Quarter. I just bought this one, but to me it looked full mintstate with maybe some rub. I bought as Au58 and thought it was for sure that good. I will have to submit again for a grade I sapose. Read the next one and you will see why.
1853 Large Cent Au53Bn.. Great coin in my opinion. I bought as AU and thought it was for sure Au58. I sent it in a month ago and it was body bagged for cleaning. I could not see how or why, so I gambled and re-submited it. Now it is Au53. I am at leat glad it is slabbed now.
1859-O Half-- cracked out of ANACS Au58. Super coin all the way and looks full mintstate. I can live with the grade after all it is the coin I bought.
What has me really disturbed it the former body bag being graded this time. I personally thought it should have been last time. How does it go from cleaned to not. I can only figure that one person says it is cleaned and is bagged on the spot. I can't believe two out of three graders call it cleaned one time and then not the next. I can't see how it is possible. I can see how grading MS coins can be tough between a 64-65-66 etc., but should not all graders be able to at least tell if a coin is cleaned or not??
How my bust half got the Xf grade is another strange one, but who knows. Maybe I got the new graders for the week.
I was wondering if maybe they would change the submission sheets to save on postage. If a coin is body bagged they can just charge my card again and run it through the system until somebody finally will grade it. This would save us all quite a bit of postage.
So now I have an 1853 large cent in a PCGS holder. Is it cleaned and in the holder?? Who really knows. I guess for that matter why would anyone care what their opinon is. Why buy slabs. Is it to self assure us that we did the right thing??? How can you be happy with a slab when you know the grades can be so far off that maybe it is also cleaned or over, or under graded. When I collected coins in 2x2's I could come to my own conclusions about condition and be happy as a lark. Now I have slabbed coins around that are saposably proffesionally graded that are no better than my own opinions.
I am frustrated with this system and this is my 2nd submission. I can't wait to see what happens next week to the trade dollar I cracked out of a PCGS Au 58 holder. Is it cleaned this time???, Ms 63 now, or maybe it is just XF45. I will let you know how it works out.
0
Comments
Congrats! Your a full time dealer. Well at least your in good company! This past week some of the VERY BEST eyes had returns from PCGS that were far worse than yours. There were a fair amount of body bags. Imagine of you had $250,000.00 in coins that became worth $100,000.00 after spending $4,000.00 to have them butchered! It happened a lot this past week to the best and brightest dealers!
Thats also why you got your coins back fast-the big boys aren't sending a lot of stuff to PCGS right now.
Laura Sperber
lsperbre1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I just got a bust half back in a bag that has luster around all devices, and I've looked at it half-dozen times since it was returned to see what I've missed. No hairlines, no parallel die striations, no telltale marks on the devices, etc. I don't know what the symptom was. Maybe when I'm better at diagnosing the series I'll know, but in the meantime, the coin won't be sold.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Try having to get coins graded for a living (fortunately I got smart and let others do the work). One major dealer actually got so stressed last year he was rushed to the hospital from a major show with high BP and dizziness. He really had gotten back a box from PCGS where he got hammered.
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
K S
I can understand your frustration. I had the same thing with my large cent. If I make a mistake -fine, I want to learn from it. Now I have a large cent that was called cleaned once and now is graded. All I learned is that PCGS is not any better than I am at grading. I thought grading was a science. I guess now it is just a crap shoot at best.
Jay
Certainly was more than fast. You got the coins back ten day before you shipped them!!!!
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
I am seeing your point exactly. I think my problem or reason for slabbing coins is that I want someone to say : Jay you did good. That coin is Au58. Good Job. I think we all need to be told what we already know just to feel good about our abilities.
I think I am going to be happy with my calls in the future, and after all if you like the coin, who cares what PCGS thinks!!!
Right when I thought PCGS was getting too loose based on my results I read this thread. Good. It means I've still got the eye while apparently others are totally loosing it.
I just got back a body bag. I cracked out a PCGS quarter eagle MS62. In every aspect, I believe it is an MS63 or better. Nevertheless, on the body bag, PCGS wrote "questionable color."
Give me a break, it was in PCGS holder and it is a gold coin. I didn't do anything about it. I simply put it into a 2.5X2.5 and mailed it to PCGS.
May be PCGS indeed lost too many business and start hiring junior graders.
Or you're full of crap like many here have suggested.
Are you the TW that lived with his brother in HB?
Some of you guys may just have to start sending coins to ACG if you want easy grading. I thought some of you guys understood that graders don't always see things the same way months later, etc. I understand it can be frustrating, but come on.
My last submission (admittedly a few months ago now) was my personal best one, because I have continued to learn more and not just "hope" for a good grade, but actually send coins in understanding the problems they may have, etc.
Besides, if the Large Cent had been bodybagged before but wasn't this time - that doesn't seem to imply that PCGS is really cracking down and getting harder.
JJacks
Your denial of dealer as well as collector feedback is fascinating. I'm happy for you that you've had recent success with your submission, but that in no way negates the volume of service-neutral feedback on this matter.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
EVP, you have to understand something. If a dealer was happy with their recent PCGS submission they certainly aren't going to come out and say "Hey buy these coins. We thought they were only MS66, but PCGS gave them 67s for some reason". I don't think they would sell many that way! Dealers always need to say stuff like "PCGS MS64 - Looks 65 to us.", etc.
The same thing is true in sportscards with PSA. People send in cards with "minor" problems like a dented corner and then wonder why it only got a 7 instead of the expected 8.
And some of the dealers here in the past have defended the fact that you can't expect the same grades everytime from any grading service. Grading is just too subjective.
As I say everytime, I would rather buy coins from a service where the submitters are often disappointed (because they overrate their own stuff), instead of a service where the submitters are always happy with the results.
JJacks
<< <i>It means I've still got the eye while apparently others are totally loosing it.
Or you're full of crap like many here have suggested.
Are you the TW that lived with his brother in HB? >>
Come on Greg. You're allowed to carry on how you made a pop one Kennedy in 68 and how you got a hit of ten PR69dcams. If I'm full of it, then what does that make all the bragging you've done?
Also, what about the hate and discontent you caused a bunch of other collectors on the coinworld forums? Didn't they ban you? Yet, here you are.
I agree we all think are coins should have gone the next grade, because of wishful thinking. It seems to be the nature of people to think their item is better than others. I think most of us could live with conservative grades if they were always that way which would alow us to somewhat figure out the grading system.
Wisconsin,
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh at all; I really didn't mean to. It can be frustrating at time. I don't think whether or not a coin has been cleaned can be determined 100% for sure all the time. If it were easy, there would be a simple formula, and everyone in coins would know it. Inconsistancy unfortunately is a part of this hobby. I do respect that you are trying to put effort into learning.
JJacks
<< <i>I am trying to learn the hobby, and their inconsistancy makes that very hard. >>
Wisconsin,
I can relate to that. Early on I did several submissions specifically for educational purposes. On a submission of about a dozen coins, none of the grades were even close to what I had thought they would be, but five of the coins - all 1964 proof JFKs - came back with the same grade.
I decided to immediately crack out those five coins and resubmit them. Now, we're only talking about a period of a couple weeks, so one might think that the grading would be consistent, right? Nope.
Four of the five came back with higher grades, one by two full points. The fifth stayed the same.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Either it was cleaned or it wasn't, but how can that change in a months time? >>
It's not necessarily the case that PCGS thought the coin was cleaned the first time they viewed it but not the second time. It very well might be that both times, they thought it had been cleaned. Now, here's the tricky part for the grading services - deciding if a cleaned coin can still be given a grade or whether the cleaning is too severe to assign a grade. That is where the inconsistency often lies.
There are plenty of cleaned coins, even mint state and proof examples, that receive grades. At a certain point, however, the cleaning is deemed too harsh/severe to arrive at a net grade that takes that cleaning into account and still makes some sense. For example, if you have an A.U. coin that is fairly harshly cleaned, do you downgrade it to X.F.? Sometimes, yes. But, if the cleaning is so horrible that a net grade of X.F. still doesn't fully account for that cleaning, do you downgrade a coin further to V.F.? Perhaps.
At some point, however, a cleaning is so severe that you would have to downgrade the coin so much that the net grade would look just plain silly. That is when the coin gets a no grade due to cleaning. And, that decision (whether the cleaning is too severe to assign a grade), can be just as subjective and/or inconsistent as the gading of a coin itself.
That is the best explanation of the process I've ever seen, anywhere. It makes some sense now!
Russ, NCNE
Can you supply your views on the matter of the rare ICG F12 FH dollar? It's in a separate thread started by Dorkkarl.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Some of you guys may just have to start sending coins to ACG if you want easy grading. >>
Honestly JJ, I think that what people are complaining about isn't "easy" grading or "hard" grading - It is CONSISTANT and ACCURATE grading. Many of the people I've seen complaining are very serious coin folk, those with vast experience, and undeniable expertise. They don't send in coins for grading to see what grade it comes back as. They send in coins for grading because they know what the grade should be. They only send coins into the grading services at all because the market virtually demands third party certification on very expensive coins. They do it simply to help the sale of their merchandise, not to "test" their own grading skills.
<< <i>My last submission (admittedly a few months ago now) was my personal best one, because I have continued to learn more and not just "hope" for a good grade, but actually send coins in understanding the problems they may have, etc. >>
Congratulations!
<< <i>Besides, if the Large Cent had been bodybagged before but wasn't this time - that doesn't seem to imply that PCGS is really cracking down and getting harder. >>
My only response to this would be to ask what flavor kool-aid do you prefer?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
1) It was 12 PR69DCAM Kennedys and they didn't just fall into my lap. I worked my ass off for them.
2) I've made lots of other top pop coins, it's just that some people remember this one since I posted it here. I've also got a raw Kennedy that very well might make MS68 which would be the finest known. However, I'm not planning on submitting it right now. (I can hear the emails coming to me right now.
If I'm full of it, then what does that make all the bragging you've done?
It's not bragging. It's the fact that many people here don't believe you, that both NGC and ANACS have stated that your work isn't that good, and that they both can detect it.
As for getting a high percentage of coins slabbed, that is no big deal. I've had 100+ classic coin submissions have a 100% slab rate. Big deal. Some days the grading services are kind, other days they are not.
Also, what about the hate and discontent you caused a bunch of other collectors on the coinworld forums? Didn't they ban you? Yet, here you are.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The drugs must have finally gone to your head. I haven't visited the Coin World forums in probably WELL over a year - maybe two years. I can't imagine them banning me considering I don't ever post there or even read their forums. I might not even be registered over there. AND "yet I am here"? What does being here have to do with Coin World?
Like I asked TWICE before, are you the same T.W. that lived with his brother (also a coin collector) in H.B.? I think we knew each others years ago. The description fits, but I missed seeing you at the last LB show.
Thanks. I'm glad it made sense. It is something that came up in discussion when I worked at NGC and I'd be shocked if PCGS and NGC don't struggle with that very issue now.
It would be much easier to explain if I had the right (cleaned) coins and you guys in front of me. Then, I could show you the difficulties in determining when the cleaning is just too severe to assign a net grade (that still makes some sense) to a given coin.
EVP - I haven't personally examined the dollar you asked about so I really can't answer your question (sorry). And, apparently something was done to the coin to alter its appearance. So, it wasn't simply a case of a different grading service viewing/grading the cleaning differently, but rather, one in which they were viewing a "different" coin.
I was expecting you to say something about how the services will slab or BB an ``early'' coin based on its eye appeal. Nearly all of them have some signs of cleaning or polishing. If it looks good, then it stands a good chance that it'll get slabbed. All services are like this.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Android,
I don't want to type too much here, but my point is this. I understand some of these people are experts, but if they go to the table next to them and ask the expert behind that table their opinion, they are likely to get plus or minus a point or 2. This proves that grading is subjective and simply cannot be done with 100% accuracy all the time (because quite honestly there is no "Correct" answer).
Mark, I also wanted to thank you for that clear explaination about a coin being cleaned/how badly cleaned, etc.
JJacks
"1919-S Quarter. I just bought this one, but to me it looked full mintstate with maybe some rub. I bought as Au58 and thought it was for sure that good". I say, "MS and RUB do not go together"!
Whats the surprise here? Grading controversy has been going on FOREVER! What the services have done if anything is close to grading gap. We're really now arguing over 1/2 point variable-not whether a coin is AU58 vs. MS63!
As much as I complain too, I understand that not everything is going to be graded "right" or the way I want it the first time. So don't sweat the small stuff all the time!
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
PCGS doesn't make sense. NGC is far more true to a set standard.
And for that reason I submit nearly everything to NGC. While PCGS may butcher a load of coins, they will still let through their share of gifts. Be very careful of paying the full load for those PCGS gifts.
NGC is not immune to butchering either but they appear to do it far less often than PCGS.
roadrunner
Studying coins certified by the major services can be a good way to learn and a good starting point. But, as has been brought out in your thread, their grading is not always consistent/correct. They do certify coins that have been cleaned and as EVP pointed out, a lot of early coins, such as bust dollars are more often than not, found cleaned, to at least some degree.
I would highly recommend to anyone who would like to improve their grading skills, that they consider taking one of the grading classes offered each summer through the ANA. There is a beginner's class and an advanced class. I have taught the advanced class three different times (not by myself, mind you!) and am convinced that the students (some of whom are dealers) learn a great deal and have a great time. It is a wonderful opportunity to get plenty of practical and useful hands-on experience examining coins and getting to discuss them with experts who can give you immediate feedback. I'm sure that the same goes for the beginner's class. Some of the students I have taught and had the pleasure of getting to know a little bit, occasionally post here - hopefully they can add to what I have just said.
Another classic WallStreetMan-ism. Tell me, oh grading guru, what happens when PCGS gets sooo tough that your current coins are seen as overgraded by a point or two and only worth 25 cents on the dollar? Will you still be drinking coolaid then?
If PCGS's standards change too much, then their old holder's grades loose all credibility. My gosh, we might then actually have to look at the quality of the coin in the holder rather than just at the insert!
You can probably safely ignore WSM. His comments have about as much credibility within the numismatic community as ACG within the grading community.
As Laura keeps on telling us, ``don't sweat the small stuff.''
On the other hand, when I find out who's been spiking his Kool-aid... BANG ZOOM!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Overtightening is required to maintain the reputation as the "only grade in town". Other companies give out lots of modern high grades - nah, those just can't be up to snuff. Look, even our classic coins require better standards! This overtightening has a few bonuses - the coin doctor's stuff that looks good upon initial submission is knocked down a grade. Then, when it turns black, it doesn't cost quite so much to buy it back. Also, in a few years, standards can start to loosen. Then the crackout game starts all over again!
But...doesn't the overtightening hurt the collector - the guy who bought his coins based on one standard and then when he goes to sell they are based on another standard (overgraded or undergraded again)? Well, a few eggs have to be cracked to make an omelette......
Give me consistency over tightness any day. How many unknowledgable collectors left tons of money on the table when they sold their old holdered coins a few years ago based upon the grade on the insert? How many unknowledgable collectors are going to buy a previous year's coin based solely upon the grading giant's reputation that isn't up to the current tight standards and then loses money because the dealer he tries to sell it to knows it's not up to snuff? How many more collectors are going to buy coins graded to today's tight standards and then leave money on the table in a few years when the standards loosen once again? Pick a standard and stick to it. Stop playing games with other people's money!
EVP, you PCGS cheerleader, don't you understand that to some collectors these matters aren't "small stuff"? It's quite easy for a dealer of Laura's net worth to make such a statement. However, there are lots of collectors where such a 5 coin submission can make a real impact on their collection. The "mega coin" dealers often times can't recall when they were in similar financial circumstances and a submission had a very negative financial impact on their collection. I think it is a real shame when we can't have a little empathy.
Legend says, "Get 10 people in a room and you'll probably get 10 different opinions of the same coin!!!" I've never heard such bull. Put 10 people in the room and you'll probably get them split between 2 grades. Just go back and check the Keets' thread on the ANNA coin. I haven't looked at that in a long time, but I bet there were probably 40, or more, Members that offered their grade. All but 2 or 3 were on the grade of 65 or 66. We will get more conformity and consistency here on this Forum than PCGS seems to get in their darn grading room!!!!
I have yet to have PCGS or NGC provide me with a holder labeled "Low end", "Solid", "High End", "Slider" or "Monster"! Have you???
I'm certain that if she meant 10 different "slabbed grades" that she would have said so. You seem to have misconstrued her statement.
One thing about Laura - she doesn't patronize anybody.
<< <i>Get 10 people in a room and you'll probably get 10 different opinions of the same coin! >>
What????????
Last time I checked, I saw 11 different opinions of the same coin.
I'm deeply wounded that you referred to me as a PCGS cheerleader. You're the only one in the world who would say that about me.
And, btw, the ``small stuff'' to which I referred to TDN is about WSM and his comments. In other words, I was trying to insult WSM by minimizing his opinions.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
It can serve as a lesson to everyone here who posts in a harshly critical language that it's easy for one to mis-read, as well as to read correctly a post that's based on someone else who mis-read. I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of the heat that gets generated around here is easily attributed to mis-understanding. Real, genuine differences of opinion shouldn't often cause adults to behave like children.
Or, am I simply too naive?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
My comments:
"Get 10 people in a room and you'll probably get 10 different opinions of the same coin! " Was meant to say that very few times people agree 100%. Okay, 6 out of the 10 might call the coin a low end widget, one the next grade, two solid, and one high end. But its ALL within a fraction of a point, not a huge spread like it was pre-certification days. One of the big Univeristies just did an experiment. They had someone steal a prof's pocket book right in front of the class. Out of 20 people in that class, no descriptions were identical and no one clearly identified the theif. And obviously, these were bright and educated witnesses. Thats where the origins of my comment comes from.
Then my other comment: "don't sweat the small stuff". PLEASE! First I DO NOT AND NEVER HAVE PATRONIZED ANYONE. If I feel PCGS are being knuckle heads-LIKE THEY ARE NOW, I'll say so. Samething w/NGC (they are over doing the NCS thing) or anyone. That comment was about the fact I see opinions on grading being over smaller issues like a tick here, a line there, vs. a full point or two prior to certification. IMHO, grading is as critical (pinpoint) as ever. To me, this is small stuff. I'm not talking about submitting just one coin.
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!