Did you know to be a "major" dealer you need to have majored in math in college?
I think what you described is called "fuzzy" math, it 's supposed to give us plebs a warm and fuzzy feeling. You know, we are getting a huge bargain. Then we are allowed to enter the inner sanctum of a "major" dealer's vault and be dazzled by his multi-gazillion inventory of MS70 Flying Eagles, MS70 Bust Halves, MS70 1909 S VDB 1c [red of course], etc.
I have bought a few coins from Benchmark Ventures. The person that I dealt with always gave me this line/// We are the largest wholesaler of coins. WE sell to all the dealers out there. You will save a ton of money with us, because you are eliminating the middleman. We have a 12 million dollar inventory. We are the largest submitter of coins to PCGS and NGC. If you don't like the coin, we will buy it back,etc,etc
I just went to their website. Quickly, at ramdon, I picked out two coins I am familiar with; A 1927-S Peace dollar, is offered at $11,500 in MS65. Any dealer want to provide the graysheet on this coin?? I have a complete Peace dollar set and I believe this is pretty high. A better example is the 1903 PR65C Morgan. This is a POP1 and is offered cheaply to the public, because they are eliminating the middleman and will save you a lot of money. Their price today is $12,500. There is a picture of the coin in the PCGS holder, providing the Certification #. Right now I am looking at the same coin on the Hertage website, ( same certification #), but Heritage is selling the coin at the / Make An Offer/ of======$8,500 to $8,800. Having bought many, many coins at Heritage I am sure I would get it for $8,600. This is the price to me, and somebody is making some profit on this coin, so figure out the markup from say, $8,000 to $12,500. I figure it to be about 57%. Remember, this is the same exact coin, same cert. #. PETE; Can you exlain how I just lost $4,000 on the above 1903 Morgan, by buying it from your website. I am sure you will have a good explanation. I just hope you don't come back with something "simple", like somebody put the wrong price on your website.
I just quickly picked these two examples, because I am very familiar with the Peace dollar and Proof Morgans. Other people on this forum should check coins they are familiar with and see how much they are saving by buying from you. I also notice that a lot of your coins are advertised on another dealer's site. I guess it is ok to give them free advertising. Their name is Park Ave. I connot understand why the same coin, that I see on Park Ave's website, (the same exact coin---same cert #) is is always at a lower price. On 5 & 6 figure coins, the difference is thousands. Please help me to understand how Benchmark Ventures is saving money for all the coin collectors reading this. After all you are the biggest!!!!
They claim to be the largest submitter to NGC? Interesting.
I took Pete up on his offer and checked them out at NGC. NGC specifically stated that they are NOT their largest submittor. Perhaps Pete can explain the reasoning behind this apparently untrue claim to fame?
Perhaps this falls in with their claim to outbuy Martin at auctions - a little "poetic license"?
Some newbie dealer comes on here, pops off, makes a BUNCH of claims he can't substantiate and won't return to take the abuse. End of story. You guys are wasting your time waiting for this guy's response!
funny how blabber-mouths who claim to be the "biggest", "best", "finest inventory", blah blah blah, rarely seem to have coins that 95% of the coin collectors out there want. i'd just like to find some decent draped or capped bust stuff in , say, xf or so. a $12M or even a $7M inventory of coins like that - THAT would impress me.
the fact is that coins like ms-67 morgan or peace dollars - you can find them any day of the year. but if you need a 1807 bust quarter in XF? fuhgettaboutit.
He must have gone to join the rest of the office at the Mountaineers Coin Show!
If their inventory was listed at regular dealer prices, the $7M figure might be more accurate! For instance, that Kellogg PF69 is more like a $1.0M coin. But... who's counting!
edited to add:
Legend owns that quarter, which was bought from another dealer who bought it from Benchmark. So two markups later it's now $9500. Apparently that's what Pete was talking about when he said the website was a bit behind in being updated.
This has been an interesting thread. I am not familiar with Benchmark, but I know from my own experience of sitting in auction after auction who buys the most coins.
1. Martin Paul. I have seen him buy up to half of a Heritage signature auction's lots.
2. Spectrum. They don't call themselves the "King of Cash" for nothing. They bought a large percentage of the SS Brother Jonathon recovery coins when auctioned by Bowers a couple of years ago. The money behind Spectrum has always been a little mysterious.
The question of who owns the coins in Benchmark's "inventory" now seems mysterious, too, especially if they're priced higher than other dealers who claim to own the exact same coins.
Who's down in Dana Point, anyway? Isn't there another big dealer in that area, or was that in Laguna Beach?
<< <i>The question of who owns the coins in Benchmark's "inventory" now seems mysterious, too, especially if they're priced higher than other dealers who claim to own the exact same coins.
Who's down in Dana Point, anyway? Isn't there another big dealer in that area, or was that in Laguna Beach? >>
Tangible Assets used to be in Laguna Beach, now they are in Newport (just like PCGS).
OK, so I rush home from the golf course hoping to see Mr. Cabral's reply and nothing! I could have played the back 9 with no wind today! I won't my breath for his reply though.
As for who owns what and who owns who? A berry berry interesting question! I think most here would be surprised to learn many internet dealers are backed / financed by other players in the coin biz. Some of the biggest names in the business are retailers run by wholesalers with deep pockets. Plenty of reasons why this happens and am not sure it really matters. What rankles me is when some of these dealers pretend to be big but are in the pocket of some other guy. That is misleading.
Not sure where BMV fits in as the Owner has no bio listed, just says under construction or something like that. Anyone know?
I just have a funny feeling that a lot of the just made "score" coins end up in large inventories like Benchmark. The upgraders have to dump them somewhere for quick cash. It's then up to the money churners to find the coin a home. I tried several times to see enlarged photos of coins on the BV website and have yet to be able to wait long enough to see a photo. You cannot see anything from the tiny scans provided and maybe that's part of the logic.
Funny thing about those math majors. They're everywhere. Add me to the mix.
Pete, frankly, I don't know why you bothered to post if that was going to be your response.
You didn't really answer answer any of the main questions posed to you. But, you did manage to say:
"Second, it really distresses me to see other dealers getting involved, doing a lot of self promotion, and advising others to attack. I don’t think that is dignified, fair, or even good business. We will make a comment about this situation in due time."
As I was one of only a few dealers who even posted, I will respond to that. I don't believe I was guilty of any "self promotion" and I certainly didn't advise others to attack. On the contrary, I advocated restraint and fairness. Please show me where I'm wrong, if you believe that I am. And, I don't recall having seen any other dealers do what you accused them of, either.
Trying to change the subject, particularly in an unfair way, probably wont work, but, we'll see.
As to other the other thread entitled “Lawyers, lawyers, etc.” … I am not going to touch it with a ten foot pole. I will NEVER post to a thread with that kind of title, as I feel it is probably just inviting trouble.
So if the thread were titled: "Bunnies, Bunnies, Bunnies, Bunnies...." then you would comment on it and whether or not Zerbe is speaking of the same company as yours?
I will say 2 things about that thread. First, I would ask everyone to remember that there are 2 sides to every argument, and that this issue is being addressed.
Honestly, was it being addressed BEFORE Zerbe posted his thread?
Second, it really distresses me to see other dealers getting involved, doing a lot of self promotion, and advising others to attack.
The two dealers in that thread that I can remember are Legend and Pinnacle. Both took moderate views. As for their self promotion, no one ever doubted that they are here to promote their business. However, and this is the key, their promotion comes from their willingness to help and offer their knowledge.
<< <i>The two dealers in that thread that I can remember are Legend and Pinnacle. Both took moderate views. As for their self promotion, no one ever doubted that they are here to promote their business. However, and this is the key, their promotion comes from their willingness to help and offer their knowledge. >>
Greg, VERY well said, no smoke and mirrors with these two companies. Even though I am not their customer, I have come to respect them a lot due to their obvious integrity. Mark, Good point also, the issues are not being addressed here. And no more prices on the website, that's not a real confidence builder either. Joe
Pete, You really have not answered any of the questions presented to you. I asked a specific and easy to answer question about a PCGS PR65Cam Morgan advertised on your site for $12,500, and the same coin(same cert.#) advertise3d on the Heritage website for $8600. Who owns this coin --you or heritage?? You have claimed to be the large wholesaler, who will save collectors money by eliminating the middleman. I am honestly confused here. I would like to do business with your company, but why is there such a large price difference between you and Heritage for the same coin??? If you cannot answer the specifics on that coin, here is another I just saw on your BENCHMARK VENTURES website. You are advertising an 1895 NGC PR68CAM Morgan (cert.# 406671-019) for $142,500. Heritage has the same coin (same cert.#) advertised today for $132,500. Please answer this; Why is heritage selling the above coin for $10,000 less than you??? I would like to believe you are telling the truth about being a large wholesaler, but if Heritage is the MIDDLEMAN on this Morgan, how could they possibly sell it for $10,000 less than you??? I think this question should be easy to answer, and that there is an easy explanation that you will hopefully present to us. I believe this can be answered without the ten foot pole. Many thanks in advance for your prompt and enlightening response. Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe,Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe.
<< <i>If you are going to advertise your coin collection and email address on the internet for the whole world to see, you are inviting others to contact you. >>
Uh, Petey, there you go prevaricating yet again. You did not spam me at the address listed where I "advertise" (the registry) my coin collection. You spammed me at the address listed in my profile here at the forums. They are two different eMail addresses.
The fact that you cannot even be honest about where you cull your spam lists calls in to question your business ethics in general. This certainly does not speak well of you, or your company.
Shiro: The LP could own some of the Contursi, Inc. stock or the Inc. could own partnership interest in the LP. If you checked Orange County you probably did all you can do. If Benchmark is truly an LP it must be listed somewhere. Maybe it's a Nevada LP...? Although, that can be a pain in the butt if you aren't doing business there...
I do recall hearing the name "Contrusi" so in might be involved in coins...or at least used to. Didn't they advertise in CW??
I looked up www.google search, and Benchmark seems to have recently sponsored an 'investment' symposium in New Orleans recently, something to do with Blanchard. In addition, their website notes that Briggs is also a principal of the company, he having his own coin investment telemarketing firm at one time, of which I had the 'pleasure' of being on their mailing and phone list. Furthermore, the website notes a Dallas, Tx affiliation, so they might be listed under Texas corporations. Very interesting thread.
Gee, that was a great reply to all of the questions posed!
Reminds me of when I was a boy and went fishing for the first time. It was somewhere in western Washington. I can't recall the name of the fish I caught but it was big, at least to a 9 yr. old, and I had a heck of a time getting it into the boat. What I will never forget is how slippery the fish was, the more I struggled to hold it tight the looser became my grip. The fish fell to the bottom of the boat and those on board all laughed as I got a towel and finally grabbed the fish firmly and popped it into the fish pail.
I learned early on, some fish can be slippery, they can be elusive, they can put up a good fight. However, at the end of the day with a little help the fish end up in the frying pan.
Pete, just because you have taken all the prices off of your website, I hope you will still find time to explain why you were advertising the NGC PR68CAM Morgan for $142,500, which is also on the Heritage website for only $132,500. ZERBE, ZERBE, ZERBE, ZERBE, ZERBE.
I can't believe this thread is still cooking! For you folks that want answers from Pete I just discovered if you go to their website and click on "live help" you can chat with Petey himself. Now please don't abuse this privledge
Comments
Did you know to be a "major" dealer you need to have majored in math in college?
I think what you described is called "fuzzy" math, it 's supposed to give us plebs a warm and fuzzy feeling. You know, we are getting a huge bargain. Then we are allowed to enter the inner sanctum of a "major" dealer's vault and be dazzled by his multi-gazillion inventory of MS70 Flying Eagles, MS70 Bust Halves, MS70 1909 S VDB 1c [red of course], etc.
Are we dazzled yet?
<< <i>Roadrunner + TDN,
Did you know to be a "major" dealer you need to have majored in math in college? >>
Hey, I did that. Even received the degree (two in fact with a MS). Can I be a "major" dealer?
You made an error getting an MS.
To be a "major" dealer you need a BS........in math of course.
K S
I have a BA in math. Does that count?
As for Greg's ethics question, the jury is still out on that wrt me...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I just went to their website. Quickly, at ramdon, I picked out two coins I am familiar with; A 1927-S Peace dollar, is offered at $11,500 in MS65. Any dealer want to provide the graysheet on this coin?? I have a complete Peace dollar set and I believe this is pretty high. A better example is the 1903 PR65C Morgan. This is a POP1 and is offered cheaply to the public, because they are eliminating the middleman and will save you a lot of money. Their price today is $12,500. There is a picture of the coin in the PCGS holder, providing the Certification #.
Right now I am looking at the same coin on the Hertage website, ( same certification #), but Heritage is selling the coin at the / Make An Offer/ of======$8,500 to $8,800. Having bought many, many coins at Heritage I am sure I would get it for $8,600. This is the price to me, and somebody is making some profit on this coin, so figure out the markup from say, $8,000 to $12,500. I figure it to be about 57%. Remember, this is the same exact coin, same cert. #.
PETE; Can you exlain how I just lost $4,000 on the above 1903 Morgan, by buying it from your website.
I am sure you will have a good explanation. I just hope you don't come back with something "simple", like somebody put the wrong price on your website.
I just quickly picked these two examples, because I am very familiar with the Peace dollar and Proof Morgans. Other people on this forum should check coins they are familiar with and see how much they are saving by buying from you. I also notice that a lot of your coins are advertised on another dealer's site. I guess it is ok to give them free advertising. Their name is Park Ave. I connot understand why the same coin, that I see on Park Ave's website, (the same exact coin---same cert #) is is always at a lower price. On 5 & 6 figure coins, the difference is thousands. Please help me to understand how Benchmark Ventures is saving money for all the coin collectors reading this. After all you are the biggest!!!!
I took Pete up on his offer and checked them out at NGC. NGC specifically stated that they are NOT their largest submittor. Perhaps Pete can explain the reasoning behind this apparently untrue claim to fame?
Perhaps this falls in with their claim to outbuy Martin at auctions - a little "poetic license"?
So that makes them associates of the Home Shopping Network, et al who also make those claims?
Interesting
the fact is that coins like ms-67 morgan or peace dollars - you can find them any day of the year. but if you need a 1807 bust quarter in XF? fuhgettaboutit.
K S
If their inventory was listed at regular dealer prices, the $7M figure might be more accurate! For instance, that Kellogg PF69 is more like a $1.0M coin. But... who's counting!
edited to add:
Legend owns that quarter, which was bought from another dealer who bought it from Benchmark. So two markups later it's now $9500. Apparently that's what Pete was talking about when he said the website was a bit behind in being updated.
1. Martin Paul. I have seen him buy up to half of a Heritage signature auction's lots.
2. Spectrum. They don't call themselves the "King of Cash" for nothing. They bought a large percentage of the SS Brother Jonathon recovery coins when auctioned by Bowers a couple of years ago. The money behind Spectrum has always been a little mysterious.
Who's down in Dana Point, anyway? Isn't there another big dealer in that area, or was that in Laguna Beach?
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>The question of who owns the coins in Benchmark's "inventory" now seems mysterious, too, especially if they're priced higher than other dealers who claim to own the exact same coins.
Who's down in Dana Point, anyway? Isn't there another big dealer in that area, or was that in Laguna Beach? >>
Tangible Assets used to be in Laguna Beach, now they are in Newport (just like PCGS).
As for who owns what and who owns who? A berry berry interesting question! I think most here would be surprised to learn many internet dealers are backed / financed by other players in the coin biz. Some of the biggest names in the business are retailers run by wholesalers with deep pockets. Plenty of reasons why this happens and am not sure it really matters. What rankles me is when some of these dealers pretend to be big but are in the pocket of some other guy. That is misleading.
Not sure where BMV fits in as the Owner has no bio listed, just says under construction or something like that. Anyone know?
Funny thing about those math majors. They're everywhere. Add me to the mix.
roadrunner
09/07/2006
TRUTH
You didn't really answer answer any of the main questions posed to you. But, you did manage to say:
"Second, it really distresses me to see other dealers getting involved, doing a lot of self promotion, and advising others to attack. I don’t think that is dignified, fair, or even good business. We will make a comment about this situation in due time."
As I was one of only a few dealers who even posted, I will respond to that. I don't believe I was guilty of any "self promotion" and I certainly didn't advise others to attack. On the contrary, I advocated restraint and fairness. Please show me where I'm wrong, if you believe that I am. And, I don't recall having seen any other dealers do what you accused them of, either.
Trying to change the subject, particularly in an unfair way, probably wont work, but, we'll see.
So if the thread were titled: "Bunnies, Bunnies, Bunnies, Bunnies...." then you would comment on it and whether or not Zerbe is speaking of the same company as yours?
I will say 2 things about that thread. First, I would ask everyone to remember that there are 2 sides to every argument, and that this issue is being addressed.
Honestly, was it being addressed BEFORE Zerbe posted his thread?
Second, it really distresses me to see other dealers getting involved, doing a lot of self promotion, and advising others to attack.
The two dealers in that thread that I can remember are Legend and Pinnacle. Both took moderate views. As for their self promotion, no one ever doubted that they are here to promote their business. However, and this is the key, their promotion comes from their willingness to help and offer their knowledge.
There is no "Benchmark Ventures" listed as a California corporation, LP, or LLC.
Obscurum per obscurius
jom
PS:Actually, an LP is not technically a corporation but they do have limited liability.
EDIT: Benchmark could be a "DBA" for their LP
<< <i>The two dealers in that thread that I can remember are Legend and Pinnacle. Both took moderate views. As for their self promotion, no one ever doubted that they are here to promote their business. However, and this is the key, their promotion comes from their willingness to help and offer their knowledge. >>
Greg,
VERY well said, no smoke and mirrors with these two companies. Even though I am not their customer, I have come to respect them a lot due to their obvious integrity.
Mark,
Good point also, the issues are not being addressed here. And no more prices on the website, that's not a real confidence builder either.
Joe
TRUTH
You really have not answered any of the questions presented to you. I asked a specific and easy to answer question about a PCGS PR65Cam Morgan advertised on your site for $12,500, and the same coin(same cert.#) advertise3d on the Heritage website for $8600.
Who owns this coin --you or heritage?? You have claimed to be the large wholesaler, who will save collectors money by eliminating the middleman. I am honestly confused here. I would like to do business with your company, but why is there such a large price difference between you and Heritage for the same coin???
If you cannot answer the specifics on that coin, here is another I just saw on your BENCHMARK VENTURES website. You are advertising an 1895 NGC PR68CAM Morgan (cert.# 406671-019) for $142,500. Heritage has the same coin (same cert.#) advertised today for $132,500.
Please answer this; Why is heritage selling the above coin for $10,000 less than you??? I would like to believe you are telling the truth about being a large wholesaler, but if Heritage is the MIDDLEMAN on this Morgan, how could they possibly sell it for $10,000 less than you??? I think this question should be easy to answer, and that there is an easy explanation that you will hopefully present to us. I believe this can be answered without the ten foot pole. Many thanks in advance for your prompt and enlightening response. Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe,Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe.
Does anyone know how to find a DBA? Benchmark doesn't show in Orange County's "fictitious business name" registry, either.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>If you are going to advertise your coin collection and email address on the internet for the whole world to see, you are inviting others to contact you. >>
Uh, Petey, there you go prevaricating yet again. You did not spam me at the address listed where I "advertise" (the registry) my coin collection. You spammed me at the address listed in my profile here at the forums. They are two different eMail addresses.
The fact that you cannot even be honest about where you cull your spam lists calls in to question your business ethics in general. This certainly does not speak well of you, or your company.
Russ, NCNE
Zerbe
I do recall hearing the name "Contrusi" so in might be involved in coins...or at least used to. Didn't they advertise in CW??
jom
TRUTH
Obscurum per obscurius
Texas
Seems you have to PAY to do searches...nickel and dimes us to death. Who do they (Texas) think they are anyway? California? LOL
jom
Ever since I read it, I've been chanting "Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe.......'
I can't get it out of my head!
Obscurum per obscurius
Russ, NCNE
09/07/2006
Reminds me of when I was a boy and went fishing for the first time. It was somewhere in western Washington. I can't recall the name of the fish I caught but it was big, at least to a 9 yr. old, and I had a heck of a time getting it into the boat. What I will never forget is how slippery the fish was, the more I struggled to hold it tight the looser became my grip. The fish fell to the bottom of the boat and those on board all laughed as I got a towel and finally grabbed the fish firmly and popped it into the fish pail.
I learned early on, some fish can be slippery, they can be elusive, they can put up a good fight. However, at the end of the day with a little help the fish end up in the frying pan.
Please no flaming, roasting or frying here.
Click the link below to see my thoughts on no listed prices. Sounds like someone got busted!
Cameron Kiefer
evp
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
K S