gem mintstate original skin white monster CRISP! looking trade dollar and a RARE super sleeper date

michael

this coin currently tresides in a pcgs ms64 holder and is like a 64.9 coin. NO........... a real 65!!!!
the coin is crisp looking with an original crusty white skin and hace never been dipped or cleaned or played with in any way shape or form.the only thing keeping this coin from 65 is some super light chatter in the left field at 9 pm!

the eagles right wing the viewers left and the eagles left claw the viewers right are somewhat weakly struck this was the norm for these coins as the dies were hastely prepaired and the coins struck very early on especially so this coin!! and there were problems with the striking which caused the claw and wing as above to be weakly struck on most all the the early pieces struck

the 1874 is a rare underrated sleeper date and is very rare in gem unc.!!
most all if not all were exported to the orient and is the most common trade with chops!

yes it has a high mintage but i think all went to the orient for trade as this is one of as i said above the most chop marked trade dollars! also
in 1874 250,000 trade dollars or thereabouts were melted in india at the calcutta mint and recoined into indian coinage! and this is a recorded case! i imagine many meltings of the 1874 are as such unrecorded! in problem free nice xf and au this date is a rare issue, remember i said problem free!

also david reimer reports in one of the 2002 issues of the liberty seated collectors club journals that he did a study of trade dollars of ebay yahoo and amazon web sites for trade dollars finding the 1874 to be a really scarce offering.

what makes this coin really rare and extra special is that is is an original skinned white coin and really lusterous and with a super crisp look to the coin. this coin was in my opinion pulled from a bin of trades coined early that year and put away! and with the weak claw on the reverse this coin with the overall crisp strike was most likely one of the first coined that year and just kept as a momento! the overall look is superb and again being thick skinned never dipped and white is highly unusual
the eye appeal is really extraordinary and exceptional for this coin.

if you look at the obverse you will see at 5 pm a toning line going over miss liberty at the base this is from being stored in an envelope probably before 1900 and most probably put in this envelope where the flap touched the coin and toned it this way! a really untouched full original white coin thick skinned and superb!

just unbelieveable combination of the 1874 date
gem mintstate

one of the first strikings off a new die early on in the year really crisp looking

never dipped or cleaned and with a thick original skin

and basically a really lusterous WHITE!!!!!!!!! coin
super underrated

a morgan looking like this with the same pop and this close to gem in a 64 holder would be close to a $100,000

WHAT I REALLY LIKE ABOUT THIS COIN ARE FIVE THINGS THE CRISP LOOKING UNTOUCHED VIRGIN SURFACES
THE MONSTER LUSTEROUS SURFACES OF AN UNTOUCHED COIN
THE FANTASTIC RARE UNDERRATED SLEEPER DATE
THE UNBELIEVEABLE CRISP LOOKING SURFACES OF THIS VIRGIN COIN!!
A FULLY ORIGINAL WHITE COIN!!!!!!!!!!

this coin looks ten times better in person!!

this coin has been examined by me in an eastern collection not for sale or sold or offered for sale....blah blah blah

sincerely michael

Blade

Michael,
WOW. That almost has the equivalent satin surface of a modern day ASE or SMS 1998 Kennedy. Lovely!

And I think you win some kind of award for the longest and most descriptive thread title.

Keep then coming!

EVillageProwler

I know you said that this coin is not for sale, but I want it anyway... I will pay strong money for it.

EVP

WWBillman

Would really like to know how you can say for sure it has never been dipped?

Nice looking coin.

oldcameoproofsguy

Michael,

That is really nice! Thanks for posting this beautiful dollar.

Elcontador

Michael,

Thanks for sharing that coin with us. It's a strong 4. PCGS is very tough on Trade $s, especially re putting them in 5 holders. I have a really nice original white 1878 S in 4 & paid strong $ for it.

The coin IMO has just a few too many scattered tick marks in the obverse & reverse fields. If it was a Morgan, it would probably be in a 6 holder.

It is a beautiful coin, though.

michael

thanks blade and evp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! evp you are first on the list if the coin ever is offered from this eastern collection!! yes yes

well billman you really have to see this coin to see and understand its originality as i have seen some. it just has the look and about 10 different things about it that is hard for me to put into words

but it is fully original and has the surfaces to prove it i guess you need to see it in person and having been studying coins like this and having seen some over 35 or so years and seeing others in this eastern collection all seated coins finest graded mintstate by pcgs well for me it is a no brainer but again this coin needs to be sight seen and then a one hour expalination

like the deep skin on the coin the toning line the white satiny original skin on the coin and not looking blast white but still with flash and blast the crusty surfaces the crisp original mint bloom that was imparted on the coin by the heat of the dies and unmolested since the day it was minted

the thick original skin that sits right on the coin taking well over 100 years to impart the overall look of the coin. seeing a few very few other original trade dollars mintstate by many famous numismatists long departed of this earth having the same look as this coin and with those other coins having no questions 100% provanance back to the date of issue or close to it!

if you tilt the coin away from a backlighted light sourse incandescent bulb and you DO NOT SEE AN EVEN UNIFORM WHITE APPEARANCE AS YOU DO WITH A DIPPED COIN AND GENERALLY NO PATINA ON A DIPPED WHITE COIN WHEREAS THIS TRADE HAS A GREAT PATINA you need to see this coin in person and understand it to see this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and in certian this original coin the trade has a light surface dirt covering certain areas of the coin and the uneven patina in certain protected areas vs other areas that if you study seated coins you will see patterns on the original coins not a secret but a rare thing for someone to see and reconise and know and understand waht they are looking at!!

many other things but hard for me to put into words!!!

this trade has all these and more!! i guess if you saw this coin in person i could shoew you many more charactistics that many have never heard of let alone seen on an original white superb mintstate coin in the seated series i could show you many!!!!!!!!!
i mean it would be quite an education and worth a trip to rochester to see an extremely rare occurance of having the coins to show you and also the knowledge to impart on you..........lol

see i am a legend in my own mind............lol

that was a great question billman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks oldcameo! always a pleasure yo see you on here

and elcon you have a really astute accessment there on trades!

sincerely michael

goyankeez

I feel like I just attended a class on Trade Dollars. Thanks for the information. And great looking coin.

prooflike

Good history lesson on this date of TD. Interesting how you were able to trace a high mintage dollar to be so rare in near-gem grade.
thanks for the experience!

shirohniichan

That's a nice looking coin. And, yes, the 1874-P is the most famous under-rated trade dollar out there in MS. Thanks for sharing the photo!

Iwog

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this coin has been dipped. In fact the luster looks quite dull compared to many trade dollars which can exhibit a very nice blast white appearance. I don't doubt that it's a nice coin, however I would never buy it based on the fact that I enjoy brilliant luster much more than a mark free surface, and this coin has been oxidized to an unappealing grey color.

Even this MS-63 1874-S has better luster. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1387829483

EVillageProwler

No offense, Iwog, but the '74-P that Michael posted seems to be all there. From the scan, it appears to have the kind of thick satiny skin that I've seen on several of TDN's Trade Dollars. I think that kind of thick satiny skin is very hard to find, and I'm not surprised if people find it hard to discern from a scan.

And, yes, I also don't think it's been dipped -- at least not in any noticable way and not recently. This '74-P coin reminds me of the Vermeule '73-CC specimen (NGC MS65) in appearance. Both super satiny, fresh and with that touch of light hazy patina.

EVP

tradedollarnut

The 1874 specifically (and Philly coins in general) do not exhibit the same luster as a San Francisco coin. The luster will be satiny and subdued, whereas a West Coast coin's luster will be blasty and cartwheel.

Compare to a very high end Philly MS66:

1876 MS66

However, I tend to agree that most white trade dollars have been dipped at one time or another. But here's a almost fully white coin that has NEVER been touched:

1878-S MS67

Clankeye

Tradedollarnut---
I have never seen any pictures of tradedollars in your collection before. Those are stunningly beautiful. I see a lot of scans of coins on these boards, those stopped me in my tracks.

Michael---
As usual the coin you are sharing with us is impressive and I thank you. I have no opinion on whether it's been dipped in it's journey or not. Since you have seen the coin in hand, I trust your assessment of it. Thanks for the information, a pleasure as always.

Carl

michael

well iwog what can i say............lol but of course i like to hear the good the bad and the ugly....................lol and you certainly are entitled to your opinion from a photograph!!

this coin needs to be seen in person and also because of the original crustry skin on this coin it is not as brite white and lusterous as the dipped s coin you had a link to!
but again in person the lustre is monster thruogh the original crusty skin of the coin

most have never really seen something like this on a also rare coin and remember the lustre will not be as a dipped blast white s mint coin like you posted a link to

thanks goya and prooflike and shiro! for the responses

tradedollarnut and evillage! you guys are not only great but really astute!!! your obversations are completely correct and helpful..........................

sincerely michael

shirohniichan

TDN's right about the satiny (or, as Bowers says, "greasy") luster on early Philly coins. I have an 1873 trade dollar with Prooflike surfaces that I bought from keoj. Though it's only MS-61 and has been dipped within the last 20 or 30 years, it's the only PL 1873-P I've ever seen. I have a somewhat prooflike 1876-P, but I think the '73-P is much scarcer in PL.

EVillageProwler

tradedollarnut and evillage! you guys are not only great but really astute!!! your obversations are completely correct and helpful

remember, michael, that you promised me first shot at this coin when it becomes available! and, when that time comes, i will also call it as having diminished luster so i can try to knock down the price!



evp

EVillageProwler

Shiro,

I too have seen a number of single- or double-sided PL '76-P coins. But, never a '73-P in that state! Lucky you! Keoj knows his stuff... (Nice guy too!)

EVP

DDR

Michael,

Beautiful coin!

I know that Bowers states that the 1874 P is the most common chopmarked P mint trade dollar, but I do not believe that to be correct. It is extremely scarce chopmarked. The 1874 P is a rarity in the trade dollar series, circulated or uncirculated, chopmarked or not.

Where did you read about 250,000 trade dollars being melted in India in 1874? Was that in one of the reference books? Rose? Willem? I don't recall reading that before.

Also, does anyone have an idea why the 1874 P trade dollar would be so scarce? Why are trade dollars minted both before and after the 1874 P --with considerably lower mintages-- much more available today?

michael

evillage!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are a great guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...........lol you know your stuff and have a great sense of humor! this scan really doesnot show thwe coin what it is really
like it is many times better in person and the lustre is cartwheel under the thick skin but still comes thruogh with flying color! and i hope to meet you some day and show you this!

and of course as you already know this coin has monster it needs to be sight seen................... i guess it is a hard coin to photograph and really the scan only shows one side of many of this coin
and also the color lustre look and othner aspectsd of this coin the scan doesnot even to begin to give it justice!

thanks you ahve helped me with many great insights on this coin and a beeter understand ing as such you and tradedollarnut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! clankeye and shiro thanks!!!!!!!!!!! clankeye you are really astute in youe comments ond observastions like a 6 th
sense! and evillage you got first refusal when thast happens i do not know but i guess only time will tell

again thanks all and to evillage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


sincerely michael

michael

hi there ddr i know that the bowers trade dollar book was written like 15? years ago or thereabouts! and lots has to be updated on trade dollars!!! you are really astute about trades!!

well randy camper the anacs guy did an article for coinworld like a few years ago and he mentioned the 250,000 being melted of the 1874 and i think there is mention of it in
the original known reports and right now it excapes me where thisw fully documented information comes from

well the rreason why the 1874 trades are so rare then the later or the earlier years is because the first daqtge 1873 was a trial for the merchants in china and many were saved as the first year
whereas the second year 1874 they were minted in larger quabnties and sent over as the merchants in the orig=ent accpeted them butm with silver prices there were worth more than other coins like the reale used and traded on par so it
was hugely profitable to save the 74 trades and get them melted and profit the exchange for other worn less silver value coins!!!!
ans and as you can see it is a rarity to finmd an 1874 in gewm let alone a nice au!!!

and with 250,000 or there aBOUTS MELTED it takes off greatly the mintage i think like 987000 minmus 250000 is now 730,000 and i bet more than half of that was melted!!

and used over there chopmarked to death and finally in the ensusing years melted as such as really no one wantyed them in the usa as even in the early 20 th century they were not even taken at banks as par!!

i mean only with the coinage act of 1964 were they again moneyitized as usa currencey i mean the trade dollar is the only us coin demonitized!! and really made for overseas specifically to compete with the spainish reale

tradedollarnut

Also, does anyone have an idea why the 1874 P trade dollar would be so scarce? Why are trade dollars minted both before and after the 1874 P --with considerably lower mintages-- much more available today?

David: Almost all the coins from the first two years mintage went to the orient to be chopped and eventually melted. However, some did circulate stateside but the 1873 coins would have been most likely to be retained as a souvenier of the new coinage. Once 1874 rolled around, those not collecting by date would have already put aside their trade dollar example and would be less likely to save an 1874. Collectors by date on the east coast would have purchased a proof rather than set aside a mint state coin. Those minted in 1875 and later, or in 1874 at the branch mints, saw much higher domestic usage and therefore were more available to be saved. That's why the 1874-P is noticeably scarce!

DDR

Micheal, TDN,

Thanks for the analysis, it makes sense to me.

By the way, I dug up the Randy Campbell article in CoinWorld that Michael mentions. In it Campbell states: "Bowers reports that during a three-month period in 1874, employees at the Calcutta Mint in India melted 233,000 trade dollars and then recoined the silver into Indian issues!"

I did a quick scan through my Bower Silver Dollar Enclclopedia but could not find the reference.

michael

david i will try to find the reference for you

thanks fopr the great questions and gald to see you on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

oreville

Michael: Nice pleasing looking trade dollar. Very nice and looks really close to gem, if not an actual gem. But grading these are not my specialty.

TDN: I liked that 1876 a lot more than the higher graded 1878-S. Is that wrong of me to think this way? There is something realllllly special about that 1876. I would be amazed if there was a nicer coin than that coin.

Why is that I like chopmarked trade dollars more then the gradeable non chopmarked ones???? Almost like liking the circulated 1856 FE cents more than their mint state or proof counterparts? Is there something wrong with me?

shirohniichan

Is there something wrong with me?

Yes, you've contracted the dreaded historical interest disease. Instead of focusing on coins that weren't used for their ostensibly intended purpose (like silver dollars stored for years in gov't vaults), you're attracted to coins that were actually used as a medium of exchange. Go buy a proof SAE from the Mint.

oreville

I never bought a proof SAE. A fellow ebayer felt sorry for me and gave me one. My daughter onws two of them (she got them for her birthday from grandparents).

:-)

Is this disease curable or contagious?

EVillageProwler

Nice response, Shiro. My friends and I love circulated coins... The nice looking circs seem to me like they've survived all these years with their dignity intact!

EVP

DDR

I too prefer the circulated coins to the ones that have sat in bank vaults all their lives.

With a chopmarked trade dollar, say an 1875-CC, you know that the coin you are holding in your hand comes from silver mined in Nevada, minted in Carson City, shipped by stage coach and then train to the West coast, loaded on a steamship and then used to purchase goods in China. It circulated in the Far East in commerce, eluding the melting pot, before somehow making it back to the U.S.

oreville

Let me make this clear....this "disease" I have is in opposition to my fascination with and collecting of condition rarities from very common coins to ultra monster as well as classic coin rarities.

I have always loved looking at and owning chopmarked trade dollars as well as circulated 1856 flying eagle cents. Everything else seems to be the opposite.

shirohniichan

I don't know of any cure.

I'm working on saving to buy a gem BU Canadian George V 25 cent piece for my type set, so I also enjoy nice MS coins. I am still fascinated with circulated coins, though. One particularly interesting one is an 1834 Mexican 8 reales with a Phillipino counterstamp and a Chinese chopmark. That coin has been around!

oreville

Neat!

michael

wow all great responses!!!!!!! thanks to everyone

now remember back in the 1950's and 60's 70's there was a huge demand from the us dealer market for trae dollars over in hong kong i mean they were sold by the bagfuls over there to american dealers all genuine and also hundreds to thousadns of them were chopped in worn condition to enhance them by merchants overthere now all legitiment chops but modern chopmarks not the contempory many are looking for legit chops but many of these chopmarked trades now were done in the 1950's on up!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

tradedollarnut

I liked that 1876 a lot more than the higher graded 1878-S. Is that wrong of me to think this way? There is something realllllly special about that 1876. I would be amazed if there was a nicer coin than that coin.

Hmmm - that's a toughie!

They both are fully struck. The 1876 is struck like a proof and is semi prooflike and has not a single mark on it, just a few light lines here and there along with some die finish lines that probably serve to limit the grade. It must have been a presentation coin as there is not a single hint of coin to coin contact. I can say that when my set was reviewed, Miles picked up the 1876 and said "in this light this coin looks undergraded", but they must have felt the few lines limited the coin to a high end 66 when they got it under the grading lamp. At any rate, if the coin was any finer it'd be a 67.

The 1878-S is totally 100% original. It is the finest coin from the Seattle Hoard [25 high grade 78-S trade dollars found in a safe deposit box in Seattle by the executor of an estate. 3 of the coins graded 66 at PCGS and this is the only coin to subsequently upgrade - it brought $50,600 as an MS66 (!) at the 1992 ANA sale in Seattle] The luster just drips off the coin and the original periphrial toning is stunningly contrasted by the fully white centers. It has a few marks but the sheer originality of the coin demands the MS67 grade under today's standards [these days, eye appeal and luster mean more than a few marks, yet a few light hairlines will still limit a grade].

I love them both dearly, and as any father would say, it's impossible to choose between them!

michael

under the 1874 date in the bowers book on trade dollars vulume one page 963 close to the bottom is the listing for the melted 233000 trades as reported melted in the american journal of numismatices oct 1874

sincerely michael

DDR

Ah yes, now I see the reference. Thanks Michael! I suspect, though, that some of those melted in Calcutta in 1874 were actually 1873 trade dollars.

By the way, there was a well-known American coin dealer in the 1940's and 1950's --Hans Schulman-- who would chopmark trade dollars, because at that time chopmarked trade dollars would sell for more to collectors. That situation is reversed today of course.

oreville

Funny, I seem to remember that chopmarked trade dollars sold for more than the plain version also in the 1960's and early 1970's?

Just like the 1922 plain cent with the weak reverse die strike was actually the preferred version back then as well. <p>

What did we know back then?