A Good Eye for Color.
Clankeye
Posts: 3,928 ✭
So I was reading through a thread and the comment was made (which I have heard many times before, about many different people) that so and so "has a good eye for color!"
Well... my question is who doesn't? Are you going to tell me if someone was offered coins from the Bingham commemorative collection that they wouldn't appreciate the color? Or the Shepherd collection? I have to say, if I encountered any of those coins, at any time, and had the dollars to buy them at a fair price, it would be a no-brainer.
So who doesn't have an eye for monster color? The color blind?
Given the resources (cash) I could put together an incredible assortment of coins with color. Do I have an eye for color? Sure, I guess.
Now "having an appreciation for color" I understand that better.
Some people don't like toning. That's different from implying there is a skill level to appreciating a monster toned coin. In that case it's just preference. Is there an experience factor that comes into play about appreciating toning? I think so, but that isn't even my point.
I guess my point is this: With a coin that has spectacular toning it's pretty darn easy to appreciate it. It's not like you have to go through the training of say, a Japanese Chef who wants to be licensed to prepare puffer fish.
I think in numismatics (and this mirrors life in general) we are very quick to ascribe talent-like attributes to what amounts to simply having enough money to afford certain things.
Now, all you guys out there "who have a good eye for color" I congratulate you. I have a good eye for color too, unfortunately my other eye is a Clank-eye, and so every now and then I windup with this coal-colored, insult-to-injury piece of crap of a coin, that whispers in my ear while I'm sleeping, telling me that life is not fair.
Well... my question is who doesn't? Are you going to tell me if someone was offered coins from the Bingham commemorative collection that they wouldn't appreciate the color? Or the Shepherd collection? I have to say, if I encountered any of those coins, at any time, and had the dollars to buy them at a fair price, it would be a no-brainer.
So who doesn't have an eye for monster color? The color blind?
Given the resources (cash) I could put together an incredible assortment of coins with color. Do I have an eye for color? Sure, I guess.
Now "having an appreciation for color" I understand that better.
Some people don't like toning. That's different from implying there is a skill level to appreciating a monster toned coin. In that case it's just preference. Is there an experience factor that comes into play about appreciating toning? I think so, but that isn't even my point.
I guess my point is this: With a coin that has spectacular toning it's pretty darn easy to appreciate it. It's not like you have to go through the training of say, a Japanese Chef who wants to be licensed to prepare puffer fish.
I think in numismatics (and this mirrors life in general) we are very quick to ascribe talent-like attributes to what amounts to simply having enough money to afford certain things.
Now, all you guys out there "who have a good eye for color" I congratulate you. I have a good eye for color too, unfortunately my other eye is a Clank-eye, and so every now and then I windup with this coal-colored, insult-to-injury piece of crap of a coin, that whispers in my ear while I'm sleeping, telling me that life is not fair.
Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
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Comments
I just think it's good to be upfront about these things.
CG
I certainly have to agree.
Stman
You raised a number of good/interesting points.
The following is partly serious and partly for fun:
Perhaps having a "good eye for color" really means:
1) having an eye (or two) with which to appreciate great color AND the $ to afford it.
2) having the ability to determine how much of a premium a beautiful coin is worth on the marketplace. Is it worth 2 times bid, 5 times bid or 10 times bid, for example. THAT is the tough part.
3) having the ability to convince someone else that YOU know how beautiful the coin is AND what it's worth.
If you qualify under any or all of the above, then you truly have "an eye for color" and something else too - $, pricing knowledge or salesmanship!
A board member
Seriously, I will agree with that. I received a Stone Mountain commem that looked darkly toned in the photo and no mention of color was made by the seller. When I got it, I was very surprised at the amount of color it had to it when "rolled and tilted." This coin does not fall under the heading of a "monster" toned coin, though.
I would also, like to clarify that I believe there is a tremendous amount of talent involved in aspects of numismatics. And certainly deep pockets do not guarantee good taste, or good decisions. So give credit where credit is due.
Edited to replace unintentional frown with grin!
<< <i>The following is partly serious and partly for fun: >>
You understand the tone of this thread perfectly. Thanks for joining in!
Keith---
That's the kind of coin I would love to have in my collection.
Stman
<< <i>I think Clankeye is a great guy and look forward to hearing him disagree with me >>
At last! Something I can really rip to pieces!
You should make it tough for me. I seriously believe if someone has the gall to start a thread so the whole world can be treated to his opinion, then they better darn well be prepared to catch a little flak on the bombing run.
Here's a pretty good scan from across the street of the rim toning on that BTW here.
Good post and interesting points. And to some extent, I'm sure that having the right amount of money could also give someone the reputation for "having a good eye for color" because they could afford to buy the best.
However, being a collector and dealer who handles a lot of toned coins, I must disagree that it's only about money. For instance, at the last LB show I had a major dealer (well known for handling some of the best gold in the country) walk up to me and place two toned coins on my case. He then looked at me with a grin and waited for my response.
I looked at the two coins and felt they possessed what I'd term 'C' color, not 'A' color. I didn't want to own either at any price.
When I passed on the coins, he seemed puzzled and said, "these are as nice as any you have in your case". Well, I wasn't sure how to answer that comment so I just pulled a few pieces out and compared them to his. Still, he didn't seem to see the difference and walked away shaking his head.
I've had the same thing happen over and over again, and often times have had the same dealer bring by the same 'C' color coins. I know these guys can see color but for some reason they just don't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between bright, vibrant colors and dull or pastel colors.
Finally, I do firmly believe that there is a fine line between really nicely toned Morgans and Monster-toned Morgans....and not everyone sees the difference.
Okay, I'm now ready for my trip to the gates of hell!
GSAGUY
Run, run, as fast as you can before getting ripped by the Clankeyeman!
Not going to rip you at all. That's a good post and very interesting. I am going to sit back and read what other people have to say now. All kidding aside, I think there are some good points of interest here.
Edit: I do want to say, perhaps you are bringing up a very good question. The fine line between monster toning and just pretty darn good toning. And the experience involved in recognizing it.
unusually good eye for color? Am I an idiot? Crazy? Well, maybe a mixture of all of this. All I know is that the coin was a stunner, and it was
an "un-EVEN" coin trade with EVAN from Aspen Park. "Crazy" Adrian loved it too. GSAGUY has seen it, but others could not see a common-date
coin go for 100X greysheet. Everyone has an opinion. I can't see spending $3000 on a Jefferson Nickel, but people have! To each their own...
As in art, beauty is a very subjective matter. True toning experts can "quantify" toning, but the beauty of such coins is still "up to the beholder."
I'm not rich and had already spent the money on the coins that I traded. So now I have one really interesting piece, apparently.
Oh, and I found an inexpensive NGC 62 Rose-coloured Saint to keep ol' Rainbow Mo company. Gotta love that unique color.
Take care,
Barney
Unless you are dealing with wildly toned Morgan $s frequently (which I am not), very rarely do I see a coin which falls into the 'monster' category.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
We handle a lot of older silver commemoratives, a number of them being "monsters", where we must discern what multiple of "sheet" they are worth.
Please enlighten us as to the thought process you go through in valuing those exceptional toned coins.
CG
<< <i>I feel I must say in advance, that anyone who responds to this thread, I shall take a contrary view to what you say >>
Everything you said in your first post is 100% correct.
Russ, NCNE
Now, you are talking about pricing levels for monster toned coins, which is different. Definitely an interesting topic, but different.
I know... I know I promised to stay out of it....
In answer to your question - it is by no means a scientific process but much more of a gut feel, based on experience and knowledge of what other "monsters" have brought. A few months ago, I bought a monster toned NGC MS67 Boone for roughly 5 times sheet. My thinking, in addition to "WOW" was, what level would I feel comfortable quoting a client on this coin. Sometimes we must put "the cart before the horse" or "the chicken before the egg" or vice-versa.
I apologize if I didn't provide a satisfactory answer to your question.
Are there any colorblind coin dealers?
Believe it or not, I know a guy who loves toned Morgans but cannot see the full spectrum of colors!!!!!
I had met the fellow a few times but had never had any in-depth conversations with him about toned Morgans. Well, he spent some time behind our table at the ANA and during one of our conversations, he revealed that he couldn't see greens and reds!!!!! I almost fell out of my chair.
He told me that all reds appeared to him what others considered pink and that all greens appeared brown. In fact, I remember him saying that he couldn't tell if a tree was dead or alive.
Interestingly, the guy collects rainbows and I guess he just sort of 'fills in the blanks' when it comes to those two colors.
Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.
GSAGUY
Do you ever run into this sort of situation?
Dave
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USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
I would like the offer the following insight after twenty or so years of serious collecting.
It may help clear up alot of anxiety and trepidation that many collectors experience.
1."A good eye for collor" is a myth, much like the Yetti or the Abominable snowman.
2.The color on any coin is highly subjective!!!. I have friends who look for similarly desirable toning, or
at least what I consider to be desirable, nice reds, greens, purple, brown, gold, gunmetal, etc., but
sometimes we suprise each other. A few weeks ago I purchased a 1928 Merc dime PCGS-64FB with dark black peripheral toning. I bought it because it looked unique. I showed it to a friend, He said it was one
of the most ugly coins he had ever seen. Up until this point he agreed with me 99% on what constitutes
aesthetic appeal. We have a few laughs over it , followed by a few beers.
3. My point is that the number one reason that PCGS/NGC surprise people is due to aethetic appeal which is directly tied in to subjectivity. Remember, graders are human too. I know a few. They make
mistakes and are vulnerable to the same variables that we are. This has to do with factors like toning,
luster, strike , and their personal likes and dislikes as far as a series goes.
4. Finally, its all about YOU liking the color. The coin will reside in YOUR collection. The same is true for
possible resale of the coin, to each his own, A good eye for color is whatever your eye likes at any given
time and whatever someone looking at it at any given time thinks. I hope thats helpful.
Brian.
My apologies; I don't collect commems & wasn't aware that there were many monster toned commems out there. I personally don't see many of these kind of coins; I've seen a few late dated Seated coins that would qualify as monster toned (three of them were dimes at your Long Beach exhibit about a year ago).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
sincerely michael
here is a MONSTER really rare with this color boone and this coin needs to be sight seen as the image barely does justice to the coin!
sincerely michael
In answer to your question "Mark, a question for you. I was set up at a show last Feb. and let me be the first to say i LOVE attractively toned pieces. Anyway i was offered a couple of Pcgs ms 67 quarters that was out of this world on the toning. The problem i had in deciding NOT to purchase the coins is that the toning was so deep and rich it was hard to nail down the grade and i have to admit i didn't think these warranted an 67 grade, they looked more like 65's to me .
Do you ever run into this sort of situation?
Dave"
Yes, Dave, I have. There are a lot of coins out there which I either feel are overgraded (plenty of undergraded ones too, I might add, but that doesn't mean I am right) or, correctly graded but not to my liking. Sometimes the color can be too dark or opaque for my personal tastes. I simply pass on such coins.
It is extremely important that people buy what they like, not what others tell them they should like, regardles of the grades assigned by the grading services.
Absolutely no apology necessary - now stop that!
If I post a pict of an original MS62 Barber:
CalGold says "Yucky yucky it's olive drab."
Stiman says: "Look at the lovely undipped originality blasting through. Very rare to find in this day of blast white spotted retoned with goldish brown lackluster periph tone coins. Not a single untoned splotchy brilliant area showing. Look at the light even toning with reddish gold highlights and the blue & olive green that dances on the surface as you tilt and rotate it. As you turn it the colors change to hints of red & purple. It's a lowlife 62? So what? The face and fields are so clean & the devices are so frosty, only 1 large tick under the wreath and a Barber dime is so small you don't even see it anyway. I'll give you 3X "bid" for it."
So who has the eye for color?
I tried to make the point you mentioned earlier I'm just not good at expressing my feelings through a keyboard. But who were you saying would pay 3 times bid for it?
Stman
It may indeed be easy for people to recognize a truly monster toned coin, But... there are levels of toning, and a lot of people may think coins are monster toned that infact, those people who have seen the most of a certain series, or have a little more experience in numismatics, may not think qualify for that distinction.
There are a number of astute people out there who not only can see a monster toned coin, but they can tell you how it got that way. They can identify toning patterns for specific series, and they can have long conversations with you about how a coin got the way it looks and why.
Is this talent? Or is it study and intelligence? Are the two different? To be honest, I have known some very talented people in my day, who wouldn't have the common sense to get out of the road if a bus was headed right at them.
My conclusion.... Most people can appreciate a true monster toned coin. But, there are people out there who definitely know the whys and wherefore of how those coins got that way. And I have to respect them for that.
Your summation is a good one based on a very interesting thread. Thanks!
Now, gotta scoot......the headlights are coming my way!
GSAGUY