MONSTER fully original ultra superb gem mintstate 1889!! Liberty nickel

michael

this coin currently resides in an NGC ms67 holder and is very nice for the assigned grade~! a 67 plus!!

this coin is nothing short of a miracle in terms of survival in this mintstate ultra superb gem grade and is a semi prooflike example struck with a proof obverse die.

NONETHELESS IT IS STILL A GENUINE BUSINESS STRIKE EXAMPLE!! many charactistics confirm this but you have to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT!

there is an ever so slight weakness in strike in the corn on the reverse wreath

this coin has fully original light golden toning and does on the reverse have some light toning dots that are practically invisible when the coin is viewed in person. such is how this coin toned and it has monster lustre and the original skin the "look" of a totally original coin, but this coin needs to be seen in person!!! much better than the photo

it has been noted from many sourses even the pcgs grading guide mentions this date specifically! and they are correct that the 1889 was a terrible year the worst year for liberty nickels in terms of overall quality of the planchets and i agree

the quality of the planchets used to strike mintstate coins are always/usually struck on unsightly damaged flans with a host of many other problems effecting the overall eye appeal and grades of mintstate 1889 coins!

NOT SO WITH THIS COIN.....

there are no minting flaws on this coin whatsoever!

THIS COIN SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST!!!! WILD! WILD! WILD!

and clearly was saved since the time of issue!

THIS COIN IS ALL THERE AND THEN SOME!! this coin is a MS67 in anyone's holder any day of the week...

i have seen and examined the above coin
this coin is currently in an eastern collection


again this coin needs to be sight seen to be fully appreciated and understood!!

sincerely michael

p.s. and a special thanks to brian itsnotjustme!! for formatting this coin so i could post it on here! as a description is good but not without a quality photo!!!!!!!!!!!

stman

Michael, nice eye appealing coin. very clean and I really like the color hue on the reverse.

stman

wondercoin

Michael: Neat coin! Wondercoin.

stman

Michael, wanted to add, I'm really starting to like these old original toned coins. Wish I had one.!!!!

stman

braddick

Mitch, I can't answer for Micheal- I wouldn't even try to, but aren't there many series where the proof die, instead of being discarded, was used to strike business strike coins?
It's an interesting process, deciding on what is the PROOF coin and what is the BUSINESS STRIKE coin when the same die was used but I've got to go with the fact the MS coins did not receive the same number of strikes as the Proof coins did and the handling was different (no raised, squared off rims on the MS coins-).

I wish you had used this question as a Thread as I'm also strongly interested in the answers.
I also know that dbdlie55 speaks of owning a PCGS Liberty nickel in the "wrong" holder- so it is a question the Grading Services are forced to answer daily.

michael

many proof dies were used in the 19 century to strike business strike coins! take three cent nickels for example and visa versa

die steel was scarce and nickel coins were hard to strike

the key is that proofs are a certain method of manufacture!

and if a coin was specifically struck from one used/reused proof die intended for business strike coins and the planchets/die not given any special care or treatments like proofs were and given only one blow from the press and with a regular business strike prepaired reverse die and released into circulation then it is a business strike coin

i mean all dies are made the same proof or otherwise back then lets say in 1889 for nickels.....lol

really in general just the process/method of manufacture is the only thing that separates proof strikings from regular business strikings

proofs are made from specially prepaired planchets with extra care taken and given two blows from the coining press and removed with greater care as presentation pieces to collectors than were the business strike coins

proofs were not generally realeased into circulation or really made for circulation, business strike coins were

wondercoin

Michael: I edited my original post, as there is no need to analyze anything further - this is a lovely coin. Perhaps we can do a separate thread one day on the issue of using proof dies on business strikes Wondercoin

michael

thanks for your great comments stman!

that was a great question wondercoin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and braddick you are absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!! i always like your threads on here and your level head! and common sense!

common sence is very uncommon and for me downright rare from what i have seen in my short time on this planet......lol

anyway it all boils down to the study and science of coins....numismatics!!

to me this is a no brainer business strike coin
but it is not a cut and dry thing for most as it is for me *****within my speciality!!!!!!!!!

but that is what makes coins so much fun and excitement as you can learn something new everyday!

AND REMEMBER I AM A CRAZY COLLECTOR I SPEND AS MUCH TIME AS I CAN ALL DAY EVERYDAY FOR THE LAST 35 YEARS OR SO THINKING ABOUT AND RESEARCHING THIS COIN STUFF WHICH IS REALLY NUTTY.....LOL but i love it........lol

sincerely michael

michael

i also have an unfair advantage as i have seen this coin in person!!

also i have seen the same date also in this eastern collection in proof 67 fantastic toned
and if you could look at these two coins side by side i could show you all the differences and nuances,

really i do not even need the proof to show you, but it is neat to have a pair!! especially so the 1889 pair unique!!!!!!!!!1

braddick wondercoin you guys are great! and i always enjoy coming here and reading what you have to say as i must admit i have learned much from you both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i love it on here! well i like it lots as you can only love a person

man, would i like to meet you both in person!! i think our conversations would be very interesting!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

wondercoin

Michael: I also enjoy your neat presentation of these 19th Century Classics. Speaking of classics, you wouldn't happen to have a TRUE GEM MINT STATE 1880 nickel hanging around (not the proof version). I'd love to buy that coin in MS65. Wondercoin.

braddick

Thanks for the kind thought Michael. Your enthusiasm always grabs me and adds to my level of excitement for this hobby.
Wondercoin asked a question that has also been on my mind for awhile- the destinction between the Proof and Mint State coins when the Proof die is used, and I appreciate you adding to what limited knowledge I had on the subject.
It's a terrific Nickel (capitalized on purpose) and one that could be gazed at for a long time and throughly enjoyed for the rarity it is.
Thanks for sharing it.

michael

thanks guys!!!!!! the feeling is mutual!

the 1880 shield is ultra rare in gem! mintstate you go after good stuff

i myself have never seen a gem mintstate 1880 shield nickel

never even heard of one!

sincerely michael

dorkkarl

sweet coin, dude!

a little input from my experience: 1889 is the best-struck of the lib-nicks. in fact, the business-strikes are so good that a lot of proofs have been accidentally passed off (confused) as b-s's. not coincidentally, proofs for '89 seldom have mirror-like fields, and are usually frosty. in 30 years, i would say the 1889 is far and away the easiest coin to get with a fully struck ear of corn on the left side.

interesting side note: the key date, 1885, always seems to be very well struck too. easy to find with the left ear of corn.

these observations are based strictly on my experience, but i've put together (and sold) a handful of sets over the years, and the 1889 is #1 in my book as the type coin for the series.

K S

robbnsc

I believe that the practice of using Proof Dies for Business Strikes was more prevalent in Branch Mints than in the Philly Mint. As Micheal said, dies were expense, and shipping times were long back in the 19th Century. New Orleans and San Franscisco were always striking soft Business Strikes in order to double or triple the number of strikes made before a die broke and fell apart altogether. This is why so many old series coins have cracked die diagnostics. You hardly see it anymore.

Oldtrader3

robbnsc

Micheal: Here is another Liberty Nickel with fantastic toning.

dbldie55

<< <i>Micheal: Here is another Liberty Nickel with fantastic toning. >>



Strange looking Liberty Nickel

Pushkin

Very pretty coin. Thanks for sharing it.

kryptonitecomics

I would give my right arm to own a coin like that, and Liberty Nickels are one of my favorite series. I second the comments from the rest of the gang and appreciate the chance to admire that beauty!!!

roadrunner

I too have never seen a gem 1880 MS nickel. Actually not even any mint state one. I have to think that many of the certified ones may actually be poorly made proofs. I was looking for this date in any MS or circ grade in the late 70's and in the 80's and found but one coin......a VG! A very tough coin in circ.

roadrunner

Nic

I have seen a few MS 1880 5c. None gem or even close. Many, so sad, cleaned. Many labelled as MS, as you all know, are PR. with poor mirrors. Most "circs" are impaired proofs. Just stating the obvious I guess. Neat nickel!!! K

keets

high grade 19th century coins are miracles to me when they arrive at today in the state of that coin. the fact that it has such minimal tone and the abscence of any rub are staggering.

al h.

michael

thanks for all the information and great comments !! also that photo of the 1883 shield nick toned is superb i rarely see any great toned shield nicks!

sincerely michael

ElmerFusterpuck

Michael,

You've complimented on some of my coins, now it's time to return the favor. That coin is AWESOME! Nothing beats those neat colors. Selling that at Long Beach?

dpoole

Stunning, smooth and beautiful coin, Michael.

michael

thanks elmer! as usual you have something positive to say!

well for me the person that owns this coin in what i refer to them as the eastern collection believes that great! coins are not replaceable so if this coin was sold you cant replace it and also that there is a boom coming for great! coins and even very good and good coins that get pulled up along with the great stuff

well again there is a boom coming within the next few years that will make all the other past booms look like nothing! and so far it has been a steady rise with great coins going into not only strong hands but collectors hands and that is much better than an investor market looking to geyt rich quick fast as what happened in 89 to 90

also thanks david poole! saw you set of three cent nicks on the registry again wow superb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are a gentleman a true knowledgable collector and always have positive comments to say!

Gemini

Beautiful flawless coins...nice to look at.
Thanks for sharing.

Trime

Michael,
This coin as all the others you have shared is exquisite. This "Eastern Collection" is world class. I am going to sell my coins and collect your photos of the Eastern Collection ( as you would say-lol).
I too believe this is a business strike but have found that other 19th century nickel coins are sometimes tough to tell the difference and are confused sometimes in major auctions. I recall a 3CN lot in a recent major auction sale that was catalogued as an uncertified gem business strike but on personal review I thought it was a proof. The difference was significant not only on technical grounds but in price (MS gem was considerably rarer). I discussed the coin with the auction house president who reviewed it and said he wasn't sure and took the coin to several "experts" who also said they were unwilling to commit; the auction house president advised me not to bid on it. The quiery came to the consignor who said the coin had been slabbed in a MS holder and cracked out and he couldn't get in back in a MS slab but believed it was a business strike. There are several messages here.

wallstreetman

I really wish people would quit saying "ORIGINAL TONED"! How many coins came from the Mint toned? Do these people know what the word ORIGINAL means? The term you are looking for is NATURAL, toning that has occured after it ORIGINALLY left the Mint!

coinguy1

walstreetman - don't be so tough on Michael (or others). Nothing wrong with using "original" in place of "natural", to distinguish it from "unoriginal" or "unnatural" or "artificial". I think people understand and realize that coins didn't typically leave the mint in an "origainlly toned" state.

wallstreetman

I could live with unoriginal!

coinguy1

That's a good start!

michael

hi there coinguy! mark!! a well thoughtout thoughtful reply!

and thanks trime another great post by you on here! on some it is hard to tell ms from proof and to me the hardest are the three cent nicks1

now wallstreet man i am very confused by your reply .......lol

and all i can say is thAT FROM my very limited experience in coins for the last 35 years and especially speaking with many collectors/and dealers that have passed so they cant bavck me up on here like john jay pittman who happened to be from where i live rochester ny and whose collection sold by david akers for over 12,000,000 dollars

well we all said original and to us in the collecting numismatically community for at least 100 years 'ORIGINAL' ment to exactly from the dies as it looked when it came from the dies but to coin collectors original means that the coin has since it left the dies the coin has not seen any type of cleaning conserveing even the mildest of soap and water and is purely unadulterated never touched or helped at all

that is what is meant and acdcepted by most all of the collecting community in coins for the last 100 years or so......lol

now maybe i and john pittman and many countless other numismatists and dealers are not correct and you ARE RIGHT! MAYBE.......LOL

AND IF SO THEN i apologise for myself and them........lol

also for example if you say you got a hit in a gamboling casino that means you got a good winner on lets say a game of chance

now from someones perspective a hit might mean someone was hired to kill someone for money and both are right

IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT YOU ARE SPEAKING OF......LOL GET IT??

if not pm me and i will explains its to you more!.......lol

BUT IN COINS "original" means that the coin was not played with in any way or cleaned or conserved in any way shape or form since it left the dies.........lol


sorry for the confusion and like i said i am very confused by your statement

along with many other numismatic greats not here today to defend themselves that would luagh you right off the bourse floor with waht they would call a very ignorant statement

now i amnot saying that....lol as i understans everyone has their own opinions jusyt like me

but overall in numismatic terms original means not cleaned etc like i said above.......lol


sincerely and respectfully michael boy oh boy there is always one in every bunch.........lol

okie now flame me.........lol

hey wallstreet keep posting on here and keep enjoying coins and be careful waht you wish for! you might get it!!!!!!!.........lol

CharlieB

Now that coin got to me too. Like the hue. Who wouldn't?
Good presentation. The good news, I understand your use of Original.
Proof coins are typically easy as apple pie to
differentiate, but not always. Take an 1856 FE pattern
cent as just one example with its many alloy compositions,
varieties, you really have to do your homework sometimes to
prove you have say a MS and not a PRF and that means referencing
the books and looking at photos. It sometimes takes a submission
or two with some written explanation to enhance your case.
I know, I have been through it before.

Elcontador

Michael,

Thanks re that beautiful Liberty Nickel. High end AND attractive ones in MS 66 & higher (that`s the 1st 67 I`ve seen) are almost impossible to find. When you in fact find one, people go ape**** and pay handsomely for them. Throw away the sheets on these babies. Thanks also to Brian for the imaging.

A friend is checking into one of them in 6 for me.

michael

thanks charlieb and elcon! for your intelligent thoughtful posts! it is appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also i have seen many ms 66 real 66 coins and this coin in the 67 holder is a real 67 it has more flash and lustre and just has the look and very few if any marks i guess i cant explian it if you know waht you are looking at it is a no brainer ms coin and if you have seen many nice i mean nice 66 coins then this coin will blow you away!

but you have to understand and know what you are looking at and have seen other 66 coins and some 67 also overall this is one of the best i have seen and to me a very nice 67 ms! it is a coin that should not exist and yet it does
a great rare underapprecaited coin and currently is getting some apprecaition but this series in superb gem ms like the three cent nicks just doesnot get its due but that is okie with me as i would rather have undervalued great coins then overvalued! as they can only go up

one day both series may get their due! and these coins are super rare to non existant looking like this! BUT THEN AGAIMN YOU HAVE TO SEE THIS COIN TO ASPPRECAITE IT AND THEN ALSO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT TO REALLY APPRECAITE IT

thanks mostly everyone for all the great comments i love this place!

sincerely michael

michael

thanks gemini for the tohughtful reply hope you keep coming back here!

sincerely michael

stman

Michael, Now what does original mean?

stman

Clankeye

Mr. Michael---
Just sat down and read through the whole thread. Love the pictures, love the info. You keep me coming back, man! Your enthusasim leaps off the screen and makes me want to learn more about... coins! I'm almost ready to list you as my numismatic hero.
A good thread for me to end the night on. Sweet dreams to all.
Clank

wallstreetman

I think you and your friends need to get a dictionary! Original Toned, so this can mean Blast White(Silver Coins)? I can see you refering to wear, luster etc... Wear: Hasnt seen any circulation, Right! Luster: Has all its Original Luster, Right! Toning: Still retains the Rainbow it had from day one, Wrong! I will agree with the part where you say your very confused! SLANG SHOULD STILL MAKE SENSE WHEN ITS EXPLAINED!

coinguy1

wallstreetman,

Why do you have so much trouble with the concept of an "original" (as opposed to an unoriginal, or artificially toned or unnaturally) toned coin? I believe that is all Michael is saying. He (and probbaly everyone else on this board) knows that coins aren't toned when they leave the mint. You seem to be the only one potentially confused by the use of the term "original toned".

kryptonitecomics

I have always used the term original to mean not cleaned. If a coin was issued from the mint and one hundred years later it hasn't seen circulation and is black due to natural elements of the coins surface reacting with it's environment.....then in mine and most everyone else's opinions the coin is original. I believe WSM has a right to his opinion and his own definition even if it differs from others. He is the one going to shell out money for a coin, so call it what ever you like when you make your purchase. You won't get any flack from your wallet. As for getting out a dictionary for his friends, I really don't think that is going to help where opinions are concerned. You are stating your opinion correct?????

wallstreetman

I know Poindexter owns a dictionary, look it up!

wallstreetman

Im not sure about Krypt Zilla!

coinguy1

wallstreetman - you made me do it - I got out my dictionary.

Among the definitions found therein for "original" are "being that from which a copy or translation is made" ; "an original work or writing, as opposed to any copy or imitation". It seems to me that ANY genuine coin, toned or untoned, cleaned or not cleaned, could qualify under those definitions. So, even if you choose to be technical, Mr. Michael was technically correct.

kryptonitecomics

Funny thing, I don't own a dictionary. I wan't aware that was a prerequisite for collecting coins. See I learn something new everyday on this forum, thanks WSM!

coinguy1

Daniel,

If you don't own a dictionary, what are you doing using big words like "prerequisite"?

kryptonitecomics

I have an amazing vocabulary, thanks to my father being a school teacher. I have never really needed a dictionary to communicate my opinions but I thought I would be gracious in accepting WSM tip. I don't waste my time trying to flame others as I am more pragmatic in my approach.

coinguy1

Daniel, you seem to be doing just fine.

michael

thanks clankeye for your thoughtful reply, and thanks mark for your replies better said than i could say

sincerely michael

Ronyahski

There's a definition of "original" on the PCGS home page. Original - A term used to describe a coin that has never been dipped or cleaned, or a coin struck from original dies in the year whose date it bears. See also - restrike.

oreville

michael: what a clean looking 1889 nickel. Very PQ even for the 67 grade. I can't say more because what else I could I say?

wallstreetman: the use of original is being correctly used as michael used it. Now the term you really want is "AS STRUCK." If the coins looks just like the day it was struck then it would be in a "as struck" condition absence of any toning. Somehow over the years as struck became known as the correct term and original became the term to explain the originality as explained by Ronyahski.

You want to get to a most controversial term? Just try patina