Great Experience with NCS and NGC
TomB
Posts: 21,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
I had never dealt with NCS before last month when I finally took the plunge. There have been a number of good things written about their service on this Board so I submitted two coins to NCS for conservation and also to be forwarded to NGC for grading. The first was a coin that belongs to another Board member and I will not mention either the coin or the member. The second coin was one that I bought at a show the day after the ANA. It was a '32 Washington in the newest holder by PCGS, the holder with the barcode. The coin was graded as MS64 by PCGS. As soon as I saw this coin I thought to myself that it was an MS65 that had bad dip residue on it and that was what held it to an MS64 at PCGS. I bought it and showed it to the dealer whom I share a table with and his first response, without my prompting, was that it would be MS65 if the dip residue were removed. So, I sent both coins to NCS in the second week of August via Registered Mail and received them today from NGC via Registered Mail. The coins went from New England to Florida, were conserved, graded by NGC and shipped back to New England in under three weeks!
My '32 Washington came back in an NGC MS65 holder and looks superb. The coin is blast white, has tremendous luster and no trace of the dip residue it had had previously. So, which grading company graded the coin correctly? Both. PCGS saw the coin with a hazy, cloudy, uneven brown-grey dip residue over the surface and limited the grade to MS64 because of the negative eye appeal. They were correct in their assessment of the coin at that stage. NGC saw the coin as blast white and having tremendous luster without any spots and graded it MS65 because that is the condition that the coin is currently in.
Overall, I was extremely pleased with the turnaround time of the combination service, the final outcome on both coins, the grading and the cost. It cost $5 for NCS to analyze each coin and $5 for NCS to curate each coin. Only $10 for each coin to have problems removed from them. That, to me, is a heck of a deal.
My '32 Washington came back in an NGC MS65 holder and looks superb. The coin is blast white, has tremendous luster and no trace of the dip residue it had had previously. So, which grading company graded the coin correctly? Both. PCGS saw the coin with a hazy, cloudy, uneven brown-grey dip residue over the surface and limited the grade to MS64 because of the negative eye appeal. They were correct in their assessment of the coin at that stage. NGC saw the coin as blast white and having tremendous luster without any spots and graded it MS65 because that is the condition that the coin is currently in.
Overall, I was extremely pleased with the turnaround time of the combination service, the final outcome on both coins, the grading and the cost. It cost $5 for NCS to analyze each coin and $5 for NCS to curate each coin. Only $10 for each coin to have problems removed from them. That, to me, is a heck of a deal.
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For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
Hoot
Thanks for detailing your experience for us.
Can NCS do any good with hazy proofs from the 50's? Do they handle the transfer to NGC? Can you provide some information on how to contact them? Your response and help is appreciated?
No names just facts...
Thanks,
Rusty.
Camelot
Yes. They will handle most "improvable" problems.
Do they handle the transfer to NGC?
Yes. It is the same parent company. I believe they are in the same building.
Can you provide some information on how to contact them?
NCS Coin
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I wonder if their will be a new breed of Vest Pocket Dealers walking the floors and checking inventories for coins that will currate and bump in status and grade?
peacockcoins
I think you can count on it.
As for the second coin, well, it simply is not my coin. As such, I will not discuss it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Folks,
I respectfully ask that you all not use dogs as a metaphor for the unattractive, the unpleasant or the undesirable... Clearly there's a reason why dogs are known as man's best friend. When I walk my beautiful little girl, a lot of cute human females gravitate towards her. And, I look good as a result!
Can't we use something else, like roaches? Or, vermin?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>I've heard nothing but good things. >>
Well, that's about to change. Before that, though, I want to make it clear that overall, I have been very pleased with the results I've had with them. They are able to get results that are way beyond anything I thought possible. But, they do make mistakes.
I received one coin back with a fingerprint on the obverse near the periphery at 3 o'clock, and another that had dip residue left in the fields. Both problems were quickly corrected with a dip, so it was not a major issue. I point it out only so that people know NCS is comprised of human beings.
And, in case anybody has in the back of their head the thought that, hey, what does the new guy know, I've processed 22 coins through NCS, including some for other members. I'd guess that there are very few here who have used their services as much.
Russ, NCNE
Good post and congrats on the results.
I've had similar results on a couple of pieces sent to NCS. I didn't send them myself as they were submitted by another dealer. Both came back with a much improved look.
GSAGUY
P.S. When's your next show?
it sounds like there is about 99% agreement that coins with detracting "problems" can be returned to a higher status by cleaning them (regardless of what you call it, dipping is cleaning, removing residues is cleaning, removing ugly toning is cleaning, lightening dark coins is cleaning, removing haze is cleaning, etc, not saying its a bad thing but call it what it is). is it valid practice to have holed bust dollars plugged, and retoned to return them to collectable status then?
how about coins that have initials inscribed in the fields. is it valid to have the fields smoothed over? note that i'm not talking state quarters and sacagaweenies here, but bust dollars, which, no matter how you look at , are rare and not enough to go around. so do you demonize a dealer who gets such a coin repaired, then sells it as-is WITH the repair mentioned?
what says you?
K S
Collecting Dollars
Another confession: A well respected VAMer suggested that I was wasting money on this coin, because, I should be able to just purchase another relatively easily, AT VAM money of course. That was a little disappointing to me, because I was sure he knew that TO ME how much money was in the coin wasn't relevant. I liked the coin as it was because of the variety, I wanted the goo gone; I'm sure I will like even more because the "goo is gone" AND it's purdy again
Those who slammed those curative or restorative methods done by the NCS or SSCA folks simply are ignorant of the subtle distinctions amongs the various methods involved. Through their ignorance, they develop confusion and then a sense of outrage.
They express opinions like ``CLEANING IS CLEANING. PERIOD.'' No I'm baffled as to how we homo sapiens could have progressed as far as we did in the past 40,000 years while exhibiting such intellectual prowess...
DorkKarl's earlier post exhibited the kind of intellectual aspects for which we homo sapiens are renowned: he was confronted with an issue, became inquisitive, and tried to analyze it.
Karl,
I don't think it is good to lump all curative or restorative methods into one single basket. There are plenty of methods that do not return a coin into a ``natural'' state. (In this context, ``natural'' means that it's as natural as we can numismatically determine.) For example, overdipping a silver coin will strip it of enough of the top layer of luster that we can easily tell. Same for holing and repairing a coin. The methods are crude enough that we can tell that there is unusual surface disturbance at that spot.
Perhaps someday we'll invent some space-age futuristic method of repairing a coin that will restore it to a state that 100% is ``natural'' in terms of surface, toning, detail, wear, etc. 100%, not 99%. If we can do that, then I'd say that that's a good method...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
that homo sapiens have made progress in the last 40,000 years.
Whatever trivial improvement in the human condition, has come about
only thru the creation of the U.S. Coin Forum. Bear
Camelot
To where would you take this umbrage? Jealous that not all primates had the same success in the progression of time?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
darn paws. We might even have invented world peace and averted global hunger and cured cancer.
Bear
Camelot
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Bear--you are outside of it all, you lucky beast.
I'll address some of what dorkkarl wrote since he included the phrase
<< <i>what says you? >>
and I interpret that as either being a comment to the overall body of the Board and/or a comment directed to the author of the thread. In the nomenclature of numismatics we all agree that cleaning and dipping have, for nearly everyone, different meanings. This is not to say that they are completely independent of one another nor that there is no common ground between the two. However, cleaning a mint state coin has historically been defined as a process that leaves fairly easily discernable tell-tale signs of surface manipulation while dipping, if done properly, does not impair the surface to the naked eye or to someone aided with a grading loupe. Perhaps more importantly, the numismatic community largely accepts properly dipped coins and tries to avoid cleaned coins. The question regarding the Bust dollar, which is an obvious lead-in to the Deb/Harold debate, is a little like comparing apples and oranges but I will get into it anyway.
First off, if you read the Deb/Harold thread you will see that my only post in that thread was to mention that I do not believe any of the story that the seller writes, that the coin in question was most definitely the same piece that goose3 had previously offered and that it had subsequently been worked on. In the context of the auction description there was clear misinformation given and that amounted to manipulation. I was not in on the investigative team nor was I condemning anyone in that fiasco. I gave my opinion on the selling technique. If you are not clear on my role you may go back and read the thread again, it is right here. End of discussion. If you are not satisfied with that part of my response I would be happy to discuss the issue with you via PM or you are invited to start your own thread. Please do not contaminate this discussion with Deb/Harold.
As for repairing and retoning holed Bust dollars, I see nothing wrong with it. After all, they are scarce coins that are always in demand and if one wants to improve the eye appeal of an abused piece they are welcome to do it. This also improves both the desireability of the coin and its collectibility. Having that coin then accepted within the numismatic community as problem free and subsequently slabbed by a knowledgable and reputable grading service is an entirely different animal. As such, your rhetorical statement
<< <i>so do you demonize a dealer who gets such a coin repaired, then sells it as-is WITH the repair mentioned? >>
not only does not apply to anything I wrote but is, in fact, contradictory to what I believe. You are welcome to modify your statement as to whom you are directing it toward.
This curation procedure (dip residue removal, uber-dipping, whatever you would like to call it) is a measure to protect the coin in the long term. Dip residue is acidic and will attack the surface of the coin resulting in etching and pitting. This is very similar to active PVC and, just as with active PVC, one should take the necessary steps to remove it before there is irreparable damage to the coin's surface. I don't know that anyone would argue that PVC removal is wrong. Dip residue removal fits into the same category only most people are not familiar with it. This is slightly different from the holed coin in that the hole will not cause future damage to the coin and is worked on simply to improve eye appeal and resale value.
I realize you have neither seen this Washington before it was sent to NCS nor after it has returned. I mentioned that it was in the newest PCGS holder so that people would be able to realize that the coin was only recently slabbed and that, most likely, the dip residue was already present and negatively impacted the eye appeal and, hence, the grade. The coin was likely to deteriorate further in the holder with the ultimate result being a very dark coin that would have found its grading coffin. It would have been a coin largely lost to numismatists. As it stands now there is no dip residue apparent on the coin and its surfaces are likely much better suited to future preservation and numismatic enjoyment. I wrote on my submission form to NCS "Coin has what appears to be dip residue from improper dip or rinse. Please remove this residue and properly rinse, neutralize and stabilize surface". They agreed with my analysis and performed the required work. The coin is now properly graded.
As for the ethics question posed by jmp81, I don't consider it wrong not to disclose its NCS history to a potential buyer, however, I would likely tell someone that it had been curated and I don't think many informed numismatists would care.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Very well said.
Russ, NCNE
Here's my position. Feel free to disagree.
1. Removal of foreign matter is acceptable, as long as you don't damage the coin in the process whether it be a scratch or significant luster removal, or leave any foreign residue. This is not "cleaning" used in the negative way. This is conservation and preservation. On the other side, any form of "cleaning" that damages the surface of the coin yields a "damaged" coin.
2. Adding foreign matter, such as a hole filling or crayola (AT), is bad if you are trying to "improve the collectibility" of the piece. If you are making a watch out of an SLQ, or cufflinks out of a pair of Mercs or Buffalo's, or using Morgans as a set of coasters, feel free to fill/make holes or add whatever you like. Just don't kid yourself that you are improving a numismatic treasure.
You can conserve or preseve a coin. Don't ever think you can spin straw into gold by taking a dumper and making it a pop 1. If I were a grader at PCGS, and I saw a quarter that was an MS65 but for an acidic residue (dip) on the coin, you better believe I'm not going to put it in an MS65 holder and wait for it to show up 10 years later in the "guarantee" department degraded by the residual dip. That's also why they don't slab a coin with PVC. They will pay for it later.
why do i bring this up? take it one step further. i have seen REPAIRED coins PCGS/NGC PLASTIC w/out the problem mentioned, since as everyone knows pcgs don't use net grades. so if even the "experts" sometimes miss out on problems like that, ie they "don't mention the problem" , then is it really necessary for repairs, etc. to EVER be mentioned???
1 other thing, PUH-LEASE don't nobody say that pcgs never slabs "problem" coins. whether by mistake or not, there's plenty of "problem" coins in all svc's slabs.
K S