9 to 5 graders wanted - calling all experts
lincolnSence
Posts: 407 ✭
Day after day I read how PCGS 9 to 5 graders are not as good as our board members. How people collect plastic that these morons have misgraded. In fact, I guess there are collectors who put together whole collections of these misgraded slabs. And get ripped off to boot. I propose that you experts call in and declare that you recognize yourself as at least as good as the pros. Please identify the category you consider yourself to be an expert in. Everyone can then make a list and refer to it when we need it. A fair number of you are making me sick. Its like a little league game. The fans yell at the ump that he can't call a strike from a ball. One day I watched an ump call time out and he proceeded to walk over to the stands where the heckler was seated. He sat down right next to him and yelled loudly, "ok, your right, I can see much better from here, PLAY BALL." I suggest if you won't put your name up for all to see and evaluate, then try to be more constructive in identifying why a coin would be graded the way it comes out. Start a thread that is theory based or oh my goodness, research driven. Pissing on the pro's just doesn't make sence. Sure there are errors. But stand up and be counted. Tell us all that you see hundreds of each date and mintmark. That you have put together a "grading set" that you use as a guide that has been in place for years and years. That you are truly as good as 4 to 5 of these 9 to 5ers by yourself! Otherwise, please rethink about trying to impress us with your babble about how you can tell what a coin really is graded from some of the crappy scans I see daily. Please do not recommend your dealer. Let them put their own name in. ONLY put in your own name. Come on, this thread should break 100 replies in no time!
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
Whether you agree with the posters when grading is discussed really doesn't matter.
What I think matters is the honest discussion (no hidden agendas) of the grading process. Something is learned by someone when grading is discussed. I agree that sometimes, hell a lot of times the same topic comes up but at the same time there are also a lot of new members as well as new people that are reading these posts but haven't become a member yet.
I personally don't do MS because I don't feel confident enough yet to tell the difference between 62, 63, 64 etc. So I enjoy the discusssions both good and bad and I can make up my own mind as to the state of grading.
I have learned an awful lot from these message boards and censoring anything is not in anyone's best interest. (Well, maybe ACG's)
Joe.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Doubt it. Not like this pot hasn't been stirred before. Maybe if you started a thread of numismatic limericks?
Sorry, lincolnSence. Don't mean to make light of your obvious frustration. You are probably railing against human nature itself. I think I can safely assure you that things will not change. Not to get too esoteric on you, but Stephen Crane said: "You want to throw bricks at the Temple. Then you realize there are no bricks, and there is no Temple."
if you want to break 100 replies you'll have to come up with something with less substance. blank threads usually do the best.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Actually, I am a perfect grader. Whenever I try to grade a coin, it always comes in as one grade lower.
I bought a raw 1860 IHC for $500 that I was sure was MS65. I was dead on because I submitted it to PCGS and it came back MS64.
bye bye $$$$
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Joe. (Sorry, I'm just helping this to get to 100 posts aren't I)
I'm DANG close to being able to do it for half dimes but I won't claim proficiency there yet.
Lincolns.. I've got them figured out like the back of my hand.
I don't think it's hard to do BUT (HUGE BUT) it's inconceivable that anyone should be able to do it in less than a minute per coin. IMO that is where the coin slabbers are messing up the utopian grading scenario.
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You're soooo right. From now on, I don't want to ever hear any of you so called coin experts ever question any grade PCGS assigns. I don't care if they took only a few seconds to examine the coin and you have forever to look, or like MadMarty,they bodybagged a Modern quarter in the mint package as not genuine. From now on, thou shalt never present thyself as PCGS's grading equal, even if you've been doing it for a living for the last 40 years, or authored a book about a series, or worked for NGC as a grader, or taught ANA seminars, OK? Koolaid, koolaid, tastes great......
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
DHeath, I don't think you are qualified to say it tastes great. Are you an expert? No. Do you put your name behind your opinion after tasting hundreds of Koolaid drinks as well as hundreds of every other type of drink? I don't think so. Please refer to the experts and if they say Koolaid tastes great then you can echo what they said. You may not disagree with them.
>Day after day I read how PCGS 9 to 5 graders are not as good as our board members.
And you think that we all are not as good? Where the heck did the graders that currently work for PCGS come from? Were they dropped off by some space ship? Perhaps you believe they come from the type of people on this board? Did the graders for PCGS not have experience prior to getting the job? Perhaps some of us have the same or more experience, especially in a certain series? What makes you think that they are the absolute best and no one else is better? Your arrogant to even suppose that we have no idea what we are talking about.
>How people collect plastic that these morons have misgraded.
Your dang right I'll buy and under graded slab but it makes me mad when I get a coin that is under graded from my own submission and I have all the right in the world to complain about it. If you don't like the post then don't read them. If PCGS is being overly harsh its valuable information to others who collect to know this and thus a very relevant topic for discussion on this board. It makes coins graded in that period more interesting because you may find a coin being sold by someone that is under graded and therefore a good buy. What is wrong about under grading to hold up a reputation is that its at the expense of their customers.
>then try to be more constructive in identifying why a coin would be graded the way it comes out
I agree it would be more helpful for all of us to illustrate why we think one of our coins was under or over graded and seriously I am not talking about the bonus fingerprints.
>Tell us all that you see hundreds of each date and mintmark.
I see hundred of each date and mint mark and they are not all the cherries sent in for grading. I do have an extensive grading set for each date and mint mark.
>The fans yell at the ump that he can't call a strike from a ball.
Did the ump get the call right? Do umps always make the right call? If they make a bad call would you the PCGS police object to their right to complain about it. This is not the little league, this is Pro ball and when a pro ump or referee makes a bad call everyone knows. Since PCGS graders look at a coin so quickly perhaps its us the submitters who are behind the plate and the PCGS grader who is in the stands?
>please rethink about trying to impress us with your babble about how you can tell what a coin really is graded from some of the crappy scans I see daily.
Please impress us as to how you acquired this knowledge that make you think many of us have no idea what we are talking about.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Where the heck did the graders that currently work for PCGS come from? Were they dropped off by some space ship? >>
Actually, I think Harvard now has a Masters program in grading which is all taught using the case method. They change all of the names and dates of coins to protect the innocent, and discuss the merits of each imaginary coin, and how you would handle the grading.
Put me down for Lib gold, Indian eagles and Saints. I have seen hundreds of them by date in mm, but unfortunately I don't have a grading set of them as it's quite difficult to find later pieces unfer VF since they did not circulate for the most part. The only exception may be jewelry pieces, but since they have been altered, harshly cleaned etc, they would be body bagged anyway. To compensate, I actually take more than 15 seconds to determine the grade I believe to be correct, and use at least 10x magnification.
As for the Kool-aid, I haven't had any since I was a kid, and that was before PCGS was founded. Now I mainly drink iced tea.
Now, if Sturmbahnfuhrer lincolnSence has no further questions, I will leave Gestapo Headquarters and return to my average everyday life.
"People, if you're doin' something that you don't want to be doin'...
stop doin' what it is that you're doin'!"
He meant it sincerely, and I was stopped in my tracks by the purity of it.
Now, LS you mentioned that "a fair amount of you are making me sick." Elvis once said about all the movies he made that "It got to a point if I made one more of those I was going to be physically ill." So Elvis stopped making movies. Did it help him? Awww... probably no.
But, it would seem to me you are suffering from coin board burnout. The symptoms of which include wanting to quash the right of other people to express their opinions, or the desire to post a missive from the mountain, so stunning in it's purity and truth that the other members of the hen house fall silent, reflecting on their folly and thoughtless ways.
If reading these boards, and having to wade through the vast hurly-burly of non-objective opinion and super-ego that is contained here, is making you sick... I would recommend you follow the fellow's advice I mentioned earlier and stop doing what it is you are doing.
This place is a warts and all zone. And you know what? A lot of people here visible and otherwise are truly qualified to express an opinion. And even those who aren't, have a right to none the less.
I am no expert myself and I never claimed to be. I have bought and sold many thousands of dollars worth of US coins over the years so I think I can honestly question the grades of some series but only when I stay up on the ever changing grading standards. I think if you spend some time here you will find some people here that can grade certain coin series as good as the PCGS graders.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I can honestly say after 20+ years of specializing in the Lincoln Cents,I know what to look for.Does that make me an expert? No! Am I as good as the professionals? I think maybe better.I'm not told how many coins I must look at in an hour.I actually look closely at the whole coin,instead of glanceing at it.I hope this answers your question!
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Doubt it. Not like this pot hasn't been stirred before. Maybe if you started a thread of numismatic limericks?
It's been done. Maybe he could try numismatic haikus?
Hey, what's wrong with numismatic limericks?
Now accepting submissions. Please include the slab you wish the coin to be encapsulated in along with...oh, I dunno, 10 bucks. For those of you on a tight budget, for 5 bucks I'll slab it in a nice 2x2 Mylar with the staples curled down so as not to damage any precious collectibles. For an additional 2 bucks, I'll attribute the variety for you. (Please include the variety you wish to have attributed to your coin.) I can't offer an express service as I have not figured out how to grade coins any faster than I already do.
At Catch22's grab and slab, the customer is always right!
Not available in all states, dealer participation may effect the actual price, not responsible for loss due to acts of God, terrorism, or water damage due to flooding.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
I re-read your post, and considered it as a protagonist. Let's assume for a moment that you are right. Let's say that the best graders day-in day-out are PCGS graders (your umpires). Now, for a moment, let's assume that the members here are not fans, but instead ballplayers who are actually playing the game. Now, lets also assume that your umps are bystanders. Who, in your opinion is the more knowledgeable about the game? Is it the Ump, who stands and watches, or the player who works his way up to the bigs, and dedicates his life to the sport. If you want to know how many marks there are on a coin, ask a grader. If you want to know the history of the series, the die varieties, the expected marks, what normal looks like for a particular year or mint, or for that matter how a high-grade coin compares to the handful of other very high grade coins known to exist (many of which you Ump probably hasn't seen), who do you ask? Look no farther than the top of the registry in almost each category to find an expert, or consult those on these boards who don't just judge, but who actually earn their living buying and selling high-grade coins. Start with Laura Sperber (fellow board member-Legend Numismatics) and see if she has the credentials to be a player. When you are really ready to get started, I'll put a list together for you from the ranks here. It would be a foolish mistake to assume no grading talent exists in the membership here.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
You may be missing my message. I'm not saying that PCGS graders are the best. I do think that they are probably consistently better than 98% of the board members. And they work as a team to produce a consistent product that over time may change a little, but will still produce consistent results. Sure there are upper, middle and lower end coins in every grade. This is where the fun usually is. But that is not what is bothering me so much. I will go back to the little league for comparison - not because I love the little league but I learned a little bit about people as a result of participating in it. I signed up to ump for my kids games as there were not enough volunteers one year. I went to the ump school and then I started umping by starting in the field first. When I felt confident enough I got behind the plate. The whole game changed right then for me. All those bad calls were now big questions to make decisions on in a quick period of time. None of this was the real lesson though. As you can imagine probably 40 - 50% of all the dads who had kids playing were also umps. What I quickly learned was not one of them, not one, would sit in the stands and piss on the guys on the field. They did ask questions after the game to fellow umps about how they came to make the calls they made. Now I ask you, as I believe this is a perfect anology to these boards - do you see this same level of professionalism in these threads? So far as I can tell, and I don't know all the dealers writing in, they at least act like the umps. I noticed none of them were arrogant enough to say they were experts, but all the other responses (from collectors I guess) made fun of the notion. It seems so easy to piss all over something. Yeah, I got the response I thought I would - but I had to ask. So now I will go back to reading about how someone needs help on pricing some $50 coin that they found on Ebay and getting responses like "I don't know this series but that doesn't stop me from responding and complaining about the grade it was given", in the hopes that every once in a while there will be something worth reading.
By the way, you mentioned Laura S. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting her. I don't know her alias either. So maybe she could give us her thoughts on this subject. unless I'm wrong (and I don't think I am) if she read these threads she sat on the sidelines like a professional ump and said nothing, because thats the way true professionals act.
Ok, you can all begin flaming again.
LS you don't know how wrong you are. Laura's handle is Legend and she does far more than sit on the sidelines "because that's the way true professionals act." She comes in and gets knee-deep in it as much as anybody I've read on these boards.
Your response addressed to Don was less of a rant than your original post. That's good. That's what originally put me off about it. Obviously, you haven't been around the boards that long. Why don't you temper your approach a little before landing with what amounts to a double posted rasberry? Rants don't interest me.
And if you think you're being flamed now, because a few of the people who have taken exception to what you wrote are coming out to defend themselves. Maybe you should remember that you laid it on the table. I have said this before: most of the people I see getting flamed on these boards bring it on themselves.
Edit: I am coming back to this having just come across another great post of yours referring to someone as a "jackass" and making a snide remark about IQ. And I just have to thank you for bringing so much to the boards. It's pretty rare that I get geniunely ticked with anyone here, but I have a real low tolerance for derogatory names being thrown around.
Is professionalism taking it on the head and saying "thank you"? From what I have read PCGS is finally addressing board member complaints about finger prints on the coins sent into PCGS. If we took your "I am OK with getting kicked in the arse" attitude many more rare, beautiful and valuable coins would be forever ruined.
You are missing our point, this is not the little leagues. When the ump makes a bad call and 9 year old Tim is struck out he goes home feeling bad. When PCGS makes a bad call or worse intentionally makes the wrong call it costs us money and we are not always talking about $50 but sometimes thousands and often hundreds. Again this is a different level and I expect a different level than going to ump school over the weekend.
>. I noticed none of them were arrogant enough to say they were experts, but all the other responses (from collectors I guess) made fun of the notion.
Most true experts in any field will not profess themselves to be experts, its only others that tag them with the line. People who know a certain subject more than most understand that they can never know enough and therefore always continue their education and never, in their own minds, attain the expert status.
>All those bad calls were now big questions to make decisions on in a quick period of time.
If you actually read the general gist of most of the PGCS flame posts you would see that this is the root of what we are getting at, the short amount of time taken on coins that we have looked at considerably longer is causing in our mind an inordinate amount of errors. Other frequent flame posts however are due to changing standards over time. What was at one time a 65RD is later a 66RD and further in the future a 64RD.
>Yeah, I got the response I thought I would - but I had to ask. So now I will go back to reading about how someone needs help on pricing some $50 coin >that they found on Ebay and getting responses like "I don't know this series but that doesn't stop me from responding and complaining about the grade >it was given", in the hopes that every once in a while there will be something worth reading.
Suggestion- why don't you actually contribute with your self apparent knowledge to the posts with the $50 coin on Ebay? It sounds like you are complaining that we are not teaching you enough whilst you hide in the shadows. By your registration date and number of posts either you have only recently joined the boards and therefore have IMO little experience to pass judgment upon us or you have been lurking and not contributing to the overall good will this board brings to its members, yet cast stones at us.
This is the United States of America, and our founders, like it or not, felt it was important to allow the 98% of us who don't know everything, or are somehow less qualified as the "professionals" to express our views and petition for redress of grievances. And there was an uncanny wisdom to that. Personally, I have never taken any standardized test where I have scored below the 99th percentile, which could be interpreted to mean that I am somehow smarter than 99% of you, and if I applied your logic Herr lincolnSence, I would summarily dismiss the morons who were beneath me as having nothing worthwile to contribute. I can only imagine how empty my life would be if I pursued that stance. Instead I enjoy the contributions of each person for what they are, sometimes I disagree, sometimes I ignore them, but never would I silence them.
As a personal favor to you, I will now return to the stands to watch the game, hoping you do not soon return to round up all the little league fans into cattle cars for "relocation."
I am going to start my own grading service, you send me a scan of your coin and I will grade it for you then send you a printed picture of the coin with the grade on the back and my signature to assure authentication.
B.S.G.S is what it will be called.
I will even send you a gold star to place on your coin if I think it deserves it.
For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
For the Morgan collectors - The Morgan and Peace encyclopedia by Van Allen and Mallis
What would your slabbed coins be worth if the grading services went out of business? What would your coins be worth if the Internet was taken offline for good?
clackamas - are you suggesting that constantly complaining about the grades submitters receive will somehow clear up that problem like the fingerprint issue? Is this how PCGS finally realized the error of their ways? I'm new to the boards, please I really don't know. Tell me how this problem ultimately got resolved. Also, please educate me - how do you know how much time a grader spends on a coin as you refer to this as a significant problem in your post above? I sat down and graded a coin for 1 minute several times tonight. You know what I realized. That was alot of time. Now, I'm not saying I'm an expert grader, in fact I'm not, but more time didn't make my coin go up in grade no matter how long I stared at it. I sat down recently with an "expert" and I watched him grade coins in about 10 seconds. No more, no less. We then submitted 8 coins for cross from NGC holders. Seven came back 1 grade lower in a PC holder and 1 came back 2 grades lower than the NGC grade. I think he called all 8 right on the money. The morale of the story - experts don't need 15 minutes on a coin.
My only point in this thread is to get away from complaining about the exceptions. I would rather read threads that let me know the window is now open for upgrades as their grading has become more relaxed. And by the way, if I can contribute to a thread, I try to. Not much sells on EBAy that people refer to regarding lincolns.
I mentioned Ms.Sperber only because I respect her professionalism and her willingness to call it like she see's it. I don't think she's a PCGS basher, and I'm sorry to involve her in this thread, as I don't know her personally but have only enjoyed her comments here. I believe it's fair to say however, that based on her previous comments, she sometimes feels there is too much politics in the business.
I appreciate your position that PCGS does a pretty good job day in day out. Frankly, I think we all agree or we wouldn't submit coins to them. Having said that, let me add that PCGS has been good enough to provie this forum, and not censor criticisms any of us may have. I'm not sure how much reading you do, but I'd like to suggest Q.David Bowers most recent column as a good starting place for you to develop a healthy perspective about what grading services can and cannot do. In his article, he say the community has decided to accept professional grading, but that the number on the slab is only the starting point in deciding whether to purchase a coin. Might I add, if PCGS were perfectly consistent (I don't think even they claim that), no coin would ever upgrade/downgrade on re-submission. Finally, you missed one of the key points in my original address to you. Some of the premier graders for any given series are currently listed right in the registry. Look no farther than the top of any busy category, and you'll likely find a very competent grader.
Using your analogy once more, the people here who are arguing with the umps are the players, not the spectators. Lastly, I'm not sure of your personal grading skill, and frankly it's none of my business, but the better you get, the more quickly you'll be able to point out inconsistencies. At that point, remember to keep it to yourself, and don't dare post about it here (your advice).
Edited to Add - LS, there's nothing wrong with strong opinion, or with speaking your mind honestly. I understand your original point and sometimes agree, but would add, the longer you're here, the more you'll learn about who is and who isn't qualified to offer grading advice. Until then, I wouldn't paint them all with one brush. PCGS is good, but not perfect, they can stand a little criticism sometimes. They're not a non-profit, and aren't simply grading for the good of the community.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Infer that they are jackasses, but don't actually use the word and its ok? >>
Actually, I think that Clankeye would be implying that they are jackasses, and the reader would be inferring such. It's a very subtle difference often lost on those with "low IQs"
Apparently you would like every thread on this message board to be loud acclamation of PCGS and the marvel of their perfection. Well, good luck with that. It seems to me that when people drink the Kool-aid and all start sounding the same, that is a symptom of the most feeble-minded among us dominating those who think for themselves. In a free society their will always be dissenting opinions, and most people who are secure in their own intellect welcome the debate. You, however, seem to want only those spouting the party line to be heard.
I pity you.
PCGS graders are paid professionals, just like major league umps and NBA refs. They get paid to take the criticism and handle it properly. As soon as they become non-profit and stop charging for their services, we'll stop the critiques. I do not see graders making themselves available to coin owners to explain their calls.
Yet refs and umps routinely do this to the fans, coaches, players, etc.
10 seconds is enough time to get 80% accuracy, I concur. To get to 95% you need more time and the use of 5x glass. This is where things start breaking down. I would submit that the best graders on the forum, armed with an additional 1-2 minutes of time can easily exceed the 80% rate that you cited. And this is their advantage. I don't believe PCGS is any more accurate than that with classic coins. They could be 90 or 95% accurate if they chose to be but that is their decision. Frankly I think an accuracy rate of 80% is poor for a professional grading company. The top buyers at auctions spend more than 10 seconds grading each lot of interest and they are certainly qualified to be PCGS graders. Since it's their money on the line and there are no second chances, they have to pay close attention. And yes, there are no doubt many forum members who can grade more accurately (and probably just as quickly) than PCGS in their specialties. I'd be far happier with a 90% or even 95% accuracy rate by professional graders which is achievable.
roadrunner
roadrunner
Here is a post I put up in a thread titled Why I have NOT had it with PCGS:
"My sympathy for most of the complaining I read about PCGS is pretty much less than zero. Most of these guys are playing "the coin game" and they are doing it for money. I usually hate to traffic in cliches but "Live by the sword, die by the sword."
If PCGS is careless with coins, fingerprinting, causing hazing, etc. that's a different matter. Then hold them accountable. But, if you're not getting the grades you want so you can turn a coin for a handsome buck on eBay, then just pay for your ticket and don't complain."
Does that sound like I'm a PCGS basher to you? I have never in all my time on these boards been critical of PCGS. In my experience with them I haven't had to be. What I am critical of is your post, and the tone of it. That's the difference. It's the way you said it, not what you said.
Edited: You're right I can't speak for Legend. But, if you read what I wrote you will see that I never tried to. You made an assumption, about how you think someone interacts with this board. I told you you were wrong. What am I basing that on? Having read things that obviously you have not. Was I knocking them? Absolutely not.
I went back and re-read your whole "jackass" bit at the end. I mis-interpreted it earlier. And now that I think I know what you're trying to say, I don't even want to bother with it.
You can argue the merits of full time dealers serving as graders, but you can't argue that those who sell the slabs have a serious investment in accuracy. The coins get returned to them, not PCGS. Use the grading services as a preliminary, then find a dealer you can trust if you're not an "expert" -- a word that's being missused here. Anyone with some intelligence can learn the nuances of a specific series after a few years of steady buying and selling, and some serious money lost by trusting only the label.
Now THIS I would like to see! I think it would go something like this:
Grader (as he looks closely at the coin in question): Nice luster, somewhat of a weak strike, some chatter in the fields. I grade it MS63.
Coin Submitter (from the stands): What?? I've seen MS64's with less marks!
Grader: OK, wiseguy.. for that I'm giving your coin a 62!
Submitter: You gotta be crazy! Who taught you how to grade coins, your proctologist? If you'd pull your head out of your arse long enough to really look at the coin you'd be able to see that its got a great strike!
Grader: One more word from you and it'll be an AU! I call 'em as I see 'em, and this coin has a weak strike!
Submitter: Are you blind or stupid, or both?
Grader: Thats it! BODYBAG!! You're outta here!
Other thread
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Yes, Sunnywood's comments are very reasonable and well thought out. A very good response.
If you write a post that is grounded in emotion as LS's is , then you are going to get emotional responses too. I originally responded to this thread with basically, "eh, it's just human nature." Then a few other people weighed in (you included) with sarcasm and a little more forcefulness in pointing out why they thought he was off base.
Then you brought a name up, which he jumped on, and in my opinion was totally wrong about. And I told him. I also commented on the way he had interacted with another board member on another thread which I think was dead wrong.
If people come on the board, and start throwing out a lot of wrong assumptions then probably at least a few members are going to come out and address it. Each will do it in there own way. Of course Sunnywood's post was great. We all have our days when we will win the well measured, objective post award, and then others when we don't.
If Sunnywood's post had been among the first responses in this forum, this thread may have taken on a different tone. I could read into your subsequent posts that you were regreting the sarcasm of your first response. Your second post "This thread is practically alive with the sound of grinding axes" didn't exactly do much in the way of defusing the situation. I'm not knocking you, Don. I've read enough of your posts to know you are a thoughful, well meaning contributor. Your point about Sunnywood's post is well taken. But, it doesn't invalidate some of the other feelings that were expressed on this thread.
ken
aka zenny
for the record, i do not consider myself an expert grader, have never, save for a couple of give-a-way guess the grades games, attempted to grade a coin via a scan and have never bashed pcgs graders, merely any employee(s) who would allow damage to occur to a coin while in the company's possession.
The comments in the original post p-ssed me off too. It wasn't the responses that I thought had little value, it was the Lincolnsense's post. My main objection to the original post was that it insulted the quality and intentions of the membership here, and attempted to stifle healthy debate. Actually, it still cheeses me off when I think of the quality and talent on these boards. I don't offer myself as an expert grader, but I know quite a few members here that are, and are able to express criticisms of bad grading. It occured to me after my initial reaction that the poster was simply unaware of the audience he was addressing, and I thought I might get a better result explaining that. That said, I'm glad to include you in my list of friends, and you can play for my side anytime, if you'll forgive my fanning the flames.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Facts already agreed on by thread respondents:
- board members are the "players" and can take a shot as well as give one
- no one stepped forward as an EXPERT as a response to the thread (except jokers)
- didn't appear to me that any dealers jumped in and responded
- it takes much longer to grade a coin than PC graders spend
Facts in dispute:
- board member expertise in grading as compared to PCGS expertise
Issue:
- who better to grade a coin - PCGS or collectors?
Background information:
- I'm going to put in some info on Lincoln cents here but I assume that other series will generally have the same conditions. If this is a bad assumption, then I withdraw this whole response, and will be happy to keep quiet.
- within the RED series (1909 - 1942) there are approximately 35 dates where a pop 1 coin exists. There is 1 in 69, 12 in 68, 6 in 67, and 6 in 66. There are 20 dates in which the top pop category has fewer than 10 coins. Now if you subtract out all of these coins as coins that are in registry peoples hands, and I'm talking about top set registry hands - the kind that stay in their sets for long periods of time, what % of the series key (high grade) material is available for viewing by all remaining collectors? The answer my friend is very little. What's left in the series is a bunch of MS64 material. Just for hoots and hollars, now lets talk about the dates between 1944 and 1958. I believe Mr. Herndon is the proud owner of most if not all the 68's. What's left is basically alot of MS 66 -67 material for the most part that is readily available to all collectors.
Theory:
- collectors who may brag about being expert graders in this series must be pretty darn good to be able to represent themselves as experts in this series with out being able to view the vast majority of the series!!!!!!!!! The vast majority of the collectors in this series probably never has seen a 68 red. And in the early dates the 67's, or the 66's. These coins generally never see the light of day.
- HOWEVER - the collectors who own this precious material are constantly trying to upgrade it. And who are they sending it to????? Right, PCGS graders, who see the material day in and day out.
Conclusions:
- very difficult to claim grading expertise in this series
- even if collectors do get to see this quality material, I'm hard pressed to believe that these same collectors who need more time to grade each piece as per our facts above can make a mental note of these lofty grades sufficient enough to last months to years in their minds, when they may see it again
- and last but not least, instead of throwing stones at the graders isn't it just possible that they could and probably do know more than the overwhelming majority of collectors on these boards? It does in my mind!
Now, like I said before, if your series is different, then all this may not apply. If you are the S. Blay of your series, then I know this doesn't apply.
I've tried to approach this without the sarcasm. I'm happy to debate. I find it generally helps all collectors when healthy debates occur. I have never tried to stiffle anyones opinion as was suggested in prior responses. I enjoy a debate and I don't feel I have to win anything. I hope you give this theory some consideration. Regards.
If I may, are you concerned with market graded coins or technical graded coins?
One can learn to technically grade by learning and understanding the PUBLISHED standard (of course supplemented with experience). I grant you, not everyone is capable of absorbing and following a paradigm, but, if one is mentally capable of learning, motivated to study the area in question, and has the resource material (again I am not downplaying experience) then one can become proficient in technically grading, particularly if that is the goal. Now PCGS and ANA have published their standards for technically grading coins. They do not however always adhere to them; namely, by assigning a grade based on what they believe the market will pay for a particular coin. In this instance, they are NOT displaying proficiency nor expertise in grading; they are indicating what one can expect to pay for or realize from the purchase or sale of the coin.
To my mind a properly graded coin should display the observable qualities that have been published in the so-called "official guides" for whichever standard we decide we are going to use, and how much the market will bring should not have an impact on the grade assigned. Even if you do not agree with that philosphy, just because a particular service appears to be the market leader does not always directly correlate to its proficiency. Having a monopoly per se does not guarantee the best most proficient service; it demonstrates a better business acumen, but doesn't necessarily reflect on the actual services provided.
Now, I am in no way trying to imply that PCGS graders are incompetent; I am only trying to point out that the basis of your rationale is not without fault.
Excellent post, and I appreciate the logic and reason you applied. I would like to think all of my posts were honest, as I disagreed with your original post from the beginning, but you'll have to be the judge. I do disagree with your assumption that series collectors don't know what pop-tops should look like. One of the series I collect is PR Kennedys. I have in my collection several hundred PR69 Dcams. I do not however own a 1971 PR69 Dcam (pop - 18). I do know with absolute certainty what one should look like. Do I feel that there are members here (collectors/dealers) who are as capable and sometimes more capable than PCGS in their specialties, you bet. Is PCGS good, I certainly think so, and I applaud their professionalism, but do I think they are infallible? Is it possible the grading standard fluctuates? Is there a political bias toward crossovers? Are any of the coins in existing holders ever upgraded or downgraded (were they incorrect the first time, or the second time they holdered the coin)? I personally would hate to see this forum lose the ability to question, based on the assumption that PCGS owns the grading standard, and that all other members here are incompetent. I would like to believe there are still a few competent graders outside the walls of CU (many are members of these forums, and they sometimes do voice disagreement). Frankly, what aggravated me in the original post was the "a fair number of you make me sick" comment directed toward anyone who criticized PCGS grading. I think if a collector with many examples of a given grade in PCGS holders to compare to feels his coin was incorrectly graded, he should be given the opportunity to say so without that kind of criticism (well if you're an expert, step forward and we'll send our coins to you). May I share with you that I own one PR Kennedy that has been given 3 different grades and a bodybag, all with different cam/dcam designations. I believe I could have gotten as close as they did on that coin. I also believe a grade is an opinion, and as such is subject to debate. I believe, just as in our discussion, that there's always room for courteous disagreement, but not room to squelch other members comments on grading by trivializing their grading skills without knowing what their grading skills are. IMHO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Let me first compliment you on your last post in this thread, as I believe it was well thought out, and brought up the true nature of the points you want to debate, and that is healthy (as opposed to the ad hominem arguments that peppered your original post, nothing ceases honest and intelligent debate faster than common logical fallacies). So let the debate begin!
Your comments on Lincoln cents are interesting, and let me first say that I am in no way an expert in the series, though I do have a nearly complete set that I've been putting together since I started collecting as a kid. Your population statistics are interesting, and prove your point, but my question would be, what percentage of these high grade coins have actually been graded? I think it would be pretty hard to tell, as many people still buy and sell raw coins rather frequently. In fact, I'm not sure we can tell what percentage of all coins have been graded, as the results would certainly be skewed to the high end coins. But to make a conclusion that all of the highest end coins of any series have been graded is a little sketchy in my opinion. Certainly, with modern coins where the mintages reach well into the billions, it is foolish to think that all the high end coins are already slabbed. If in fact there are still many of the highest end coins still in private collections, then it is possible that someone on this board may know how to grade those highest end coins. An you can apply this argument to any series.
Second, your argument is based on the highest graded coins, which would only be relevant for the very highest graded coins. These are the coins which are very rarely discussed on the board, much less bashed. I collect double eagles, and I know a fair amount on grading them, particularly Type 2 and 3 Libs and Saints. Now I admit, I have seen very few 66s in either series, much less a 67 or higher (though I remember seeing a Type 3 lib that I think was graded 68 by NGC, but I can't exactly remember the number on the slab since I was staring and drooling at the coin). I have seen a lot of coins, and you can picture the distribution skewed to the right with a peak at around MS-64. Now, just because I haven't seen every MS-66 or higher Saint, doesn't preclude me from making a judgement on an MS-64 or MS-63 that I believe was under or overgraded. I don't need to know what an MS-67 Saint looks like to be able to judge that such and such MS-64 looks a lot worse than the 500 other MS-64s I've seen. My final point on looking at the highest end coins is that there is a natural bias in the results. With the guarantees offered by PCGS and the major services, they have to get it right on the top graded coins, or they will lose their shirts. If they grade a common date Saint as a 62 and it should be a 63, well there might be a $20-50 difference in value, so naturally they wouldn't be as concerned with the error in that grade.
Third, how do you address the crack-out game? To me, this is the key to my belief that PCGS and others are inconsistent in their grading. I have heard so many stories besides Don's where people just keep submitting a coin to a service, and cracking it out and resubmitting it until they finally get the grade they wanted. Did the coin change? Did it somehow heal itself in the Fedex truck on the way to Newport Beach? I doubt it, and that leaves the only possible reason for the higher grade to be the professional graders fallability as humans. And since most board members here are also human, that's as good a qualification as any to be able to disagree/question them.
Finally, the one important area you completely ignored was the marketplace. This is where the rubber meets the road, and it doesn't matter what the grader says, if the buyer and seller don't agree, then the coin doesn't change hands. A perfect example happened to me this weekend. I bought an early Saint in a PCGS MS-64 slab, but I didn't think it was 64, I thought it was a PQ 63 at best, so I offered solid 63 money for the coin, and money changed hands. Now I bought the coin as a 63, and paid 63 money, but the slab says 64. Well, either I am a genius and the seller is a moron, or maybe PCGS overgraded the coin. Now, if only I can find someone that drank the Kool-aid this morning, I might just pocket a quick $200 profit!
The crossover game is one that I haven't quite figured out yet. There is a reason PCGS is so tuff, but I still need time to understand exactly why. I have read alot of good/obvious theory on the boards. But so far I'm not there yet.
Not withstanding my recent post, I do realize there is alot of talent on the board with respect to grading and I do respect it.
JTryka - My limited experience in Lincolns (5 years) suggests that a high % of material out there is graded. The prices realized on recent (last 12 months or so) sales should be enough to bring remaining material out of hiding. Every collector / dealer in the series seems in tune to the profit potential and so I believe everyone is trying all the angles. Statistically however, PCGS has not upgraded but a handful of the early date pieces in the last 5 years! It has been tuff for a long time. As this is also the most widly collected series, I also believe raw pieces would be quickly bought and slabbed (PCGS) if it was of a high grade by everyone. Moderns are a mystery to me. I have been content to acquire MS67 specimens and I can only wonder how 68 coins get the prices they do. I believe there will be many 68's in time especially 1950 and on. (I know the 50's are difficult - but rolls exist and I expect 68's to be available). Thank goodness the registry doesn't attach a premium to these modern coins with respect to weighting.
You ask how I address the crackout game. Well, the registry itself has helped fuel this fire. I too have been consumed by the numbers game. To be in the top 5 - AHHH and all that. I know that I still have some growing to do because a friend of mine has the will power to pass on a higher graded coin because he thinks his is better in a lower number holder. WOW, sometimes I just have to step back and wonder about the whole thing when I see this happen (most of the time I just say to myself I should just sell everything and stop torturing myself). So I watch this guy sell the higher graded stuff to collectors willing to pay and he keeps going about his business upgrading his set when possible. A true collector, for the collecting experience. I'm not quite there yet.
This NGC registry situation is interesting to me however. I think it has alot of interest especially for people who want to play the registry game of who has the higher numbers and they do address differences in grade within the date. I think they have a better answer than PCGS. Their site was so disfunctional in the past, I doubted they would ever get it right. Well now they have and it will be interesting to see what happens. I predict that if they allow collectors to hide their material, they will be swamped with set additions. I don't think the star thing will catch on in the Lincoln series. There they will have to step up to the guaranty to make any headway.
Thank you both for your replies. I look forward to many more interesting posts.
Gilbert - I was talking about market grading. But your right in your observation about adhearing to published standards. When photograde was discussed, I bought the book. I wondered if a computer could be programmed to spit out a grade based off a program. Maybe someday. In the meantime, events like this IH showdown I believe will be all the rage. It won't be long till we have cross registry wars! At the ANA each year. Like the American vs the National league. Yeah, maybe I'll start a new thread. .............. Maybe I'll sleep on it.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
You may be quite right on the number of high grade early Lincolns in slabs already, I have no idea. But what always concerns me is that although you and many other current collectors are aware of the profit potential, there are still many older collectors that don't know or don't care. When are most collections sold? Survey Says, after the collector passes away! Just look at the most recent example of the Binion collection of Morgans, sure they are being shamelessly marketed, but there were some pretty sweet coins in that hoard, all raw.
I still have problems with the crackout game though. I would challenge anyone here to submit a coin, any coin, and then crack it out and submit it again, and repeat this 3 or 4 times and see just how often it comes back as the exact same grade. The only rule is, no dipping or other alterations, you must submit the same exact coin. My guess would be that it might come back with the same original number 50% of the time tops. What does that say about consistency? Well, to me it says these guys are humans, not gods, so stop drinking the Kool-aid and realize it.
Do a lot of people on here complain about the grade they got back, sure, and are they probably wrong and the grading company correct, yes. The confusion is mostly a result of the process, and the lack of grading skills is the grading companies fault not the submitter. If they took the time to pen a brief description of the grade it received it would make us all better graders. We can't possibly read their minds to fathom how they came up with a grade. Do I usually agree with the grades I see on NGC & PCGS coins, yes. Why because I can compare them with other coins in the grade. Can you do that with pop tops, no. So why don't they tell us when they give out an unusually high or low grade for a coin? If grading standards were ascertainable and constant you wouldn't see upgrades.
You made some good points, however your exampled is flawed.
Things have seemed to take a very positive turn here and I am glad.
Don, I would be most pleased to count you among my friends. And LincolnSence, believe it or not, you too. The way you communicated with the board in your last few posts was very good. When approached that way, people can actually listen and consider. Believe me, it's not like you have to have my stamp of approval for what you say, but odds are sometimes I'll respond for better or worse.
I think, all in all this has turned into a very good thread. I know that I'm going to take a few positive things out of it.