i remove my name and addr from packages, etc. for security, but she did slip up. 1 of her u.s. proof sets does show the full name and addr. don' remember which 1, but it;s out there in a supersize pic.
The jade Coin Company publicly supports efforts to repair coins which would otherwise be uncollectable (though we don't provide such service ourselves). That includes plugging holes, repairing surface scratches, and retoning drastically cleaned coins. However, we do NOT support misleading descriptions of such coins. If we make available a coin with known problems which adversely affects the grade, the policy since inception of our company is to explicitly make such problems known to any potential buyer.
Please note that we are not responsible for how any coin will be marketed after it leaves our possession.
Regarding the discussion of the damaged 1795 bust dollar. We purchased the coin from a forum member at the Central States Coin show in April. The damage was repaired. Later, as part of our goal to acquire quality colonials, the dollar was instrumental in a transaction with "earlycoins". Due to our reputation and the prominence of our Yellow Pages advertising in West Michigan, opportunities like that are not unusual for us.
We cannot discuss confidential or private information in a public forum. If you have any questions, we invite you to to contact us using any methods described on our website.
I guess that means earlycoins purposely mis-represented the coin as it was sold to them as being repaired, and they listed with no mention in the short description which was included below the long winded BS story above.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
I still thinks it's quite a coincidence that Deb's eBay id is "earlycoins" and Jade's alternate isp is earlyUScoins.com. Of course, I get into trouble for always giving people the benfit of the doubt. (see the beginning of this thread)
Here is the description from the auction (minus the usual rambling):
For the first time, I do believe, I have gotten well organized for this round of listings. I am actually going to list these coins in order of face value, starting from the lowest through the highest. That may make it easier for you, if you are looking for something very specific. There are alot of early coins in here, and these are from the same box as many of the coins from the last round. There are only about four large boxes left after this, plus several albums and a few odds and ends. Clifford said he might sell off a couple of the coins he had been keeping, but I'm not sure if he really wants to do that. I did have several requests to list some more gold coins. I may do that at a future date if the price of gold keeps rising, but for now, I am going to list just one more. Next month, I may list off a couple of bags of coins that are just bulk amounts of common (I think) silver coins. I think it was a mistake before when I took similar sacks to a local dealer, because those were full of much older coins, yet I later found out I had received what is called "melt value" for them, which is much lower than collector value.
(4) EXTREMELY OLD COINS
Well, I thought I would do something different for this lot of coins. This will be an interesting experiment on my part, because I still have many more coins like these! Included in this listing are four coins, and they are from the same sort of time period in early American history. I will describe each one separately. The first coin is an 1814 dime. It is in a very worn grade, with the date barely showing on it and a couple of the stars and some letters on the back nearly wiped out. However, the picture on the coin is not as blurry as you might expect with as much wear as it has. In fact, in some ways, I rather like this old dime. It has a nice antique look to it. The second coin is an old quarter printed in 1806. It also is very nearly worn out, again with a couple of letters on the front and several on the back being a little bit smudged. However, the picture once again does have a couple of minor details left and is only a little blurry. Third in this lot is a half dollar from 1809, and it seems to be in a little better shape than the other three coins. None of the letters or numbers are blurred at all, and only the main picture is a little bit smudged out. My son Clifford believes there is actually some old mint luster at the edge of the coin! Finally, I will include a silver dollar from 1795, which should be the most valuable of the four coins. It is more worn than the half dollar, but still should have some value, I would think. Cliff noticed that there is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it. Since these coins are older than average and therefore a little more valuable, I'm sorry that I can't start it off at an extremely low value, but I will try to make this affordable to any interested collectors out there. Please remember that this is for a total of four (4) coins, all sold as-is, so I hope they go for a reasonable price.
Something's rotten in the State of Michigan. "Deb" nowhere says these are coins she bought from Jadecoin. If she did buy them, she's leaving out some very important facts and lying by omission. Don't you think it's kind of important that the coins were repaired and supposedly sold as such? Why didn't she say so? Also, why does she write about Harold's collection and not point out that this lot of coins wasn't from his collection at all?
In a reply to a board member, didn't she claim she was selling them for a dealer? If she traded them for other coins, she's lying again.
Whoever wrote the following line should get some sort of award for false advertisers: "I think it was a mistake before when I took similar sacks to a local dealer, because those were full of much older coins, yet I later found out I had received what is called "melt value" for them, which is much lower than collector value." Don't you just want to pity her and hope you'll get some of her early coins like the lot of 4 in question for melt value, too?
<< <i>I guess that means earlycoins purposely mis-represented the coin as it was sold to them as being repaired, and they listed with no mention in the short description which was included below the long winded BS story above. >>
Sure looks that way. Shame.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Here's Deb's response to dorkkarl from an earlier post in this thread:
she apologized and said that "I must admit, Karl, that the final lot of four coins indeed were not from Harold's estate" (no kidding) blah blah, and that they actually belonged to a dealer in DETROIT. "Cliff" allegedly is friends with this dealer and goes to detroit about once a month on business. he told the dealer/friend how well ebay was going, & the dealer asked her to list the dollar with her coins. "deb" rambled on to say that she had not intended for the listing to mislead readers into thinking that it was H's coin, but that in retrospect, she wishes she would have mentioned they it was not actually from his estate. she also claims it was the first time she's listed a coin other than Harold's.
The original auction gives the impression that the coins were from Harold's estate. Deb says a dealer asked her to list the coins for him. A dealer says Deb got the coin in trade. Deb makes no mention of the repair. A dealer says he traded them to her as repaired.
SOMEONE'S not being honest. All I'd like to know if the dealer and Deb are the same someone.
Notice that jadecoin doesn't actually deny that it operates as "earlycoin" on EBay. They are full of bull and I am not afraid to say it.
You are hiding behind confidentiality. Do you have a written confidentiality agreement with "Deb?" We obviously think you are "deb", and if you feel that we are wrong, you should tell us who "Deb" or "Cliff" really is.
If they are aware enough of the internet to have a website and get on this forum, I would bet the farm that they have sold on EBay. What name have the sold under??? There appear to be several, and not the least of which is "earlycoins" aka "Deb."
We sniffed you fellows out. Now you are soiling the forum with your presence, so get out of our house.
Hi guys! or gals, or whatever! James writing. Didn't have time to read everything closely, but think I got the jist of it all.
First of all, couple of clarifications. "earlyUS" was registered to someone else up until a couple months ago. I had tried to register it years ago - no luck. But it recently became available, so we jumped on it (would LOVE to have "earlyAmerican"....) It is NOT "earlyusCOINS" (too long). I'll be cancelling "cjade" and "www.earlyUS.com" will become official - when I have the time. The parallel to the ebay handle is simply not there, so sorry. The URL does work though, just points to "www.cjade.com".
Second of all, I agree 100% that "earlycoins" should have mentioned the 1795's problem. I just looked at the auction in question. I CAN'T speak for them, but it does mention an attempt to "scrape off the scratches" and a "shiny area" - things we did mention to them. I seriously doubt anyone can show misleading info, other than that the coins wern't part of the original estate. And that's flimsy at best. Technically, I guess, they became part of the estate upon possession. Coincidence that it was the last auction listed, and out of "denomination" sequence?
Thirdly, as someone requested, we hereby publicly deny operating as "earlycoin" on ebay. (ie. "the dealer and Deb are NOT the same someone"). But we WILL NOT violate confidentiality agreements, which are implicit to any dealings with our customers, and THAT is FINAL. It isn't going to happen. Case closed, and don't ask again. Heck, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter a whole lot to me what uninformed readers think, since they'll believe any fantasy anyhow if they believe half the crap written in this discussion.
Finally, it's laughable to imply that we've hidden our selling activity on ebay! We originally sold under two separate handles and our individual feedback is perfect! Dennis and I merged companies a couple of years ago, thus the merged feedback that someone mentioned. AND we voluntarily unregistered our account per ebay procedures. To put it bluntly, we LOST money selling on ebay, which is why we bailed on it.
That's all I really feel like saying. From our side, this discussion really is silly, but we were invited by THREE OF YOUR VERY OWN MEMBERS to write a statement. AND, TWO of those members are longtime customers of ours!
One last thing, I guess. You have NO IDEA as to the quality of the estate, and I'll say right now that it is probably the best material that I have PERSONALLY handled. You'd be a fool not to pick up some of the coins if they have any interest for them (free plug for Deb).
Sincerely, James Garcia Dennis Tarrant jade Coin Company
Personally I don't see what there is to get worked up about. I won't indulge in any of these ebay auctions, the point has been WELL made here on the boards as to what many of the members think (I too think something isn't quite right, in fact, it stinks), but so what! There are tons of out right crooks operating on ebay, and lets face it, we in the coin area have probably the lions share of them. I agree it should be posted so all can know and look into it themselves if they care to, but you can only beat on of these suckers for so long! Lets round up some other crooked names and let everyone know so more than one of us don;t get burned by the same fire. Sealyp
"Finally, it's laughable to imply that we've hidden our selling activity on ebay! We originally sold under two separate handles and our individual feedback is perfect! Dennis and I merged companies a couple of years ago, thus the merged feedback that someone mentioned. "
This is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Did anybody else pick up on the fact that there is a DIFFERENT handle known as JADECOINS (with an "S"), and it has multiple reciprocating feedback with our very on JADECOIN (which has no "S")????????
These two EBay users have different profiles, yet almost identical names. Obviously JADE stands for "JAmes" and "DEnnis" and they have certainly tried to game the system. "JADECOIN" leaving feedback for "JADECOINS"???
C'mon, give us a break for not being total retards. I'll bet your mother didn't even know your father's name.
Hey, I still remember jadecoin's infamous "artificial toning" listing, where some funky toning was explained as having been created by throwing the coins into cake mix and baking them. That was the last listing I recall Ebay handle "jadecoin" having before becoming NARU.
I just read this entire thread for the first time. It took me about 30 minutes or so. I can't remember a time when I had so many different emotions within a single sitting. I wish I was on these boards when the investigation was going on. When I saw JadeCoin respond, my heart skipped a beat. What a moment. Absolutely great. Better than any murder/mystery movie.
But, in the end what was proven? Would somebody who was directly involved in this please summarize.
Here's my take on this and tell me if I'm wrong, or missed something:
Harold was considerably older than Deb, having started collecting coins in the early 1940's, and Deb just turning 65. From her letters I thought she was in her 70s or 80s. Why should she make herself YOUNGER. Harold had inherited his coins from his father and continued to collect up until his death. Deb, being somewhat younger, was pretty good at the computer and the internet. She helped Harold buy and sell his coins on ebay. If you look at the feedback left, there is evidence of buying and selling at the same time. After his death, she intended to sell his entire collection, since she had no interest in coins, and neither did her son. The only problem was the grading and identifying of the coins. Early on she found that listing them on ebay, although time consuming and tedious, was the best way to make money.
As for grading the coins, she needed a trusted dealer. Harold had done considerable business with 'jadecoin" on ebay and possibly in person. "Earlycoin", as an ebay username for Harold (and Deb), could have been somehow inspired by jadecoin, or it could have been a coincidence. A large part of Harold's collection were early coins, and jadecoin sells early coins. If you look at "earlycoin"'s feedback to others (around June 2000), they left feedback to "jadecoin" 3 or 4 times. "Jadecoin" even responded and included what was purchased (Bust quarters, bust halfs) and the price. On one occassion "earlycoin" leaves the following praise "SMOKIN' FAST delivery. BESTprices on eBay. Nobody is better than James!!!!!!!!!" When it came time to sell, Deb used this trusted dealer to grade and help with the coins; maybe after trying a few others. She did not know coins. They had considerable contact with each other and made trips back and forth. Location "coincidences" (michigan, missouri) is really jadecoin looking and grading Deb's coins (they have to be in the same place). Every once in a while a coin show in the region would come up where Deb would send her son to try to sell some coins. As stated, the prices weren't good enough. Harold had business dealings with jadecoin, and Deb used jadecoin to grade and/or look at the coins, but jadecoin is not Deb (or Harold). Jadecoin stopped selling on ebay and is no longer registered.
In the end (or beginning?) jadecoin was maybe too involved in how Deb sold her coins, and influenced her too much. The one auction identified was a mistake (misrepresentation); although it may be the only one. Nobody knows for sure what their true intentions were. Miscommunication is possible. How involved jadecoin was is anyone's guess. Her son also had a hand in this.
Harold was spending hundreds of dollars per coin in the years before his death. The selling price of many of these coins are in line with that. Quite a collection indeed!! MAYBE Deb's descriptions are a bit TOO much. MAYBE she's been taken advantage of by certain dealers once or twice. MAYBE some dealers are deceitful. I have no proof one way or another. All I know is, after looking at this evidence and thinking logically, she's probably telling the truth, and the coins she's selling are the coins of her late husband (obviously not the ones she admitted weren't hers).
What would be the cover up? Coin dealers sell on ebay all the time and get good prices. So do regular collectors, selling their collections. Of all the buyers of her coins, many of which are big time dealers, wouldn't something "fishy" surface and result in negative feedback or some complaints. Many are repeat buyers. If somebody is using this "front" to get their kicks, then ok. But, nobody's realizing bigger profits or defrauding anybody (with the one exception). Especially when there's no shipping fees and there's quantity discounts (5-10 percent).
Here's my theory. Feel free to shoot holes in it.
EDITED after certain responses. I'm aware of the one instance, and I assume its the only instance.
I think you missed a key point. Shiroh very clearly showed that a damaged /repaired coin was sold by Deb. Based on Deb's descriptions it seems to me that a reasonable person would believe that this coin had been in Harold's collection for a long time (i.e. prior to coin repair businesses being in existence). Thus, he would bid based on a belief that the coin was in orignal unaltered condition. At best this makes Deb highly unethical and at worst guity of fraud IMO. If you believe "...nobody's realizing bigger profits or defrauding anybody" then maybe you should contact the guy who bought that coin, show him Shiroh's detective work, and ask him what he thinks.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
don't know about that theory, but it sounds plausible though.
but i think there's something even more important going on here. here's my take on the direction this whole thing has taken. something stinks, but i now do not believe it's the story. i think what stinks is the behaviour of certain forum members who have crossed the line.
it is totaly unacceptable for you to demand the identity of a coin dealers clients, and someone in this thread has done just that. that just reeks of "no class". that makes it sound personal, imo. your freakin nuts.
second, and this is my fault, i see invasion of privacy going on here. i regret having mentioned a first and last name in a previous posting, as well as an address. i should know better. my behaviour was totaly uncalled for. i'm just glad i didn't mention a phone #. my lone salvation is that deb herself put her last name in this last round of auctions. somene tell me, is there a way to go back and remove text from a post?
third, someone keeps bringing up gibberish about jadecoin/jadecoins on ebay, trying to make some point, i guess. bottom line: the merged feedback is a perfect 475 w/ zero neg's. deb's f.b. = 308 w/ zero neg's. total = 783 w/ zero neg's if you believe they are 1 and the same. raise your hand if your f.b. as a seller is better. but after reading this thread, it wouldn't surprise me if someone willing to cross the line would be malicious enough to bid on her auctions w/ a bogus account for the intent of leaving neg f.b. just to make a point.
one last thing, i see a he11uva lot of quoting out of context going on here. all i can say is be careful. i say the line has been crossed by certain members, including me.
no doubt about it, there's one he11uva lot of drivel going on here. problem is, deb ain't the one writing it.
I don't know anything about cleaning/repairing coins. But that's how this whole controversy got started- that coin. This thread began to point out this woman's auctions. I read the first post, the original one, and was going to reply something like "I've been following this woman's auctions and think they're really great. Love to pick up some coins." Something like that. Then I saw the 150+ other replies and suddenly this thread turned on a (proof cameo) dime.
Part deleted: Misread Deb's and jadecoin's admission. This part assumed nothing was admitted. Point was made clear to me. Thanks.
I'm not sure when Harold died, but, like I stated before, purchases were made by Deb's ebay username in 2000. All coins surely weren't found in pocket change.
I'm just pointing out what is possible or probable. Orkham's Razor (spelling ?): "the simplest solution is usually the right one". I love consipiracies and debates, but this argument is getting a little too one-sided. I'm stepping over to the other side, like Henry Fonda in "12 Angry Men." What evidence do we actually have?
Edited after I misread certain prior parts of this thread. My next reply clears a lot of things up. This thread is too long and complicated to find the necessary information. Sorry
<< <i>I'm not sure what jadecoin "admitted" to in the last message >>
they freely admitted to trading the 1795 and potential undisclosed others to "Deb" in return for colonials.
<< <i>this woman has had some contacts with coin dealers >>
they admitted that too!!!
<< <i>It is LIKELY that some dealer included this coin with the rest of her estate, as a way "hiding it" >>
gotta disagree here. i really think the seller was told the problem, and tried to explain it by saying a crisscross was scraped off (the repair) and the coin still had a shiny area (the cleaning). also, if you look at the high buyer's other purchases, he doesn't seem like a fool at all. in fact, i suspect he's a dealer.
1 other thing that i just realize too, the coin did not exactly rock the house on $. here's what i come up with:
final bid price of 1180 - 25 (dime) - 225 (quarter) - 100 (half) minus 50 (ebay fees) minus 10 (shipping) = 770 bucks left for the dollar. if the original price was 625 (according to goose3) plus 75 (repair) = 700, then the dealer and deb made seventy bucks between them, for a grand profit of $35 EACH! and, YOU tell ME where i can get a 1795 bust dollar with any detail on it for $770.
<< <i>All coins surely weren't found in pocket change. >>
where the he11 does it say that???
<< <i>Orkham's Razor (spelling ?): "the simplest solution is usually the right one" >>
here's the reall reason i just had to respond again. where did you get that quote? i've been trying to find out where it came from for a while. wasn't it used on a star-trek episode once? i like it so much, it's becoming my new tag line. if anyone knows the correct spelling, etc, please let me know.
Typically called "Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor" named for William of Ockham, a 14th century logician and Franciscan friar.
He wrote "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" or "plurality should not be posited without necessity." (Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily) Scientists generally phrase it as: "when you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
kranky, either #1 you got on ebay, bid on occam's book being sold by a little old lady in michigan, had it wired to your house through the offices of a deceitful book dealer who had the book repaired and failed to mention the problems, and then made up stories about how your wife died and left the book as part of your estate, or #2 your a genius.
"On one occassion "earlycoin" leaves the following praise "SMOKIN' FAST delivery. BESTprices on eBay. Nobody is better than James!!!!!!!!!"
Does this sound like the same Deb Greenman that writes descriptions in earlycoin's auctions??? "Deb" forgot to dumb herself down when she left feedback.
Raise my hand if I have better feedback???? I guess if I was leaving feedback for myself I could have BETTER feedback than jadecoin/jadecoins/wildorchyd and whatever other ID's they have used.
Altering a coin's appearance to improve the "collectibility" (interpreted as "salability"), is nothing more than coin doctoring.
Coin conservation vs. Coin Doctoring: You decide which one JADE employs:
Numismatic conservation involves examination, scientific analysis, and reliance upon an extensive base of numismatic knowledge to determine the nature of a coin’s state of preservation and the extent of any damage. Conservation also encompasses appropriate procedures to protect the coin’s original appearance and to guard against future deterioration to whatever extent possible.
Professional conservation should not be confused with "Coin Doctoring", in which an attempt is made to improve the appearance and grade of a coin through deceptive means such as artificial toning and where unaccepted or unorthodox methods are employed. Also not qualifying as conservation is restoration where mechanical repairs are made such as filling holes, smoothing out scratches, and re-engraving of detail
This definition was taken from the NCS website, and I happen to agree with the distinction.
This will be my last post on this thread, so take whatever shot you want.
If we are to go with the simplest explanation, perhaps it would behoove us to get some questions answered. The story that Deb has dealt with Jade Coins for a long time has holes in it.
1). Why did Deb claim the 1795 dollar and other doctored coins "came out of the same box" as a bunch of Harold's other early US coins if she was the one who traded them for some colonials?
2). If Jade Coin clearly told her the coins had been doctored to look old, why was it that her son was the one who just happened to notice someone tried to polish off graffiti? Does she forget that quickly?
3). If she received the coins as part of a trade, why did she claim she was selling them for a dealer?
4). She claims that she took a bunch of early coins to a local dealer and got only melt value for the coins. Why would she continue to trust Jade Coins if they were the local dealer who ripped her off? If the dealer who ripped her off was not Jade Coins, why would she go to someone she didn't know to sell her early silver when she already had a long and trusting relationship with Jade Coins?
There are other questions that need answering, but I'll start with these.
I still believe that Deb (earlycoins) is different from jadecoin.
ADMITTEDLY, they have contact. ADMITTEDLY, jadecoin has traded with Deb, and given her the 1795 and others in exchange for colonials (Sorry, I missed that post). ADMITTEDLY, Deb should have disclosed where the coins came from in that one auction. On a previous auction she states The one thing I will say is that I believe many of the best coins were collected straight out of normal pocket money, either by Harold himself, or by his father or grandfather As if to say that most coins were original, and not repaired.
I see a lot of "older people" get taken advantage of; especially when they lose their husband. She has her son, who is trading at shows for her, and she has jadecoin who is helping her sort and grade the coins. I think it would be easy for her to get "lost", between what her son is doing and what jadecoin is doing. Don't forget, she doesn't know much about coins. This one instance, where she ADMITS to omitting certain information, may be the only case.
As for the feedback she left that was questioned, I don't think it was long enough to identify her exact style. How often do we here catch phrases and slang on T.V. or the internet, and, for a moment, use that language. Just for fun. Smokin' fast is not something she would use in a normal conversation; but when you're thinking of something to write in a feedback column; something new and original- why not? Maybe somebody else used it and she copied it.
Back to Occam's Razor (thanks kranky): what is more plausible.
A older woman inherits some coins from her late husband which she sells on ebay... and makes a mistake (or gets involved with something that is over her head at the dealings of her son and/or jadecoin).
Or, a conspiracy where a coin company fronts as an old widow so that they are able to sell coins as originals, which are really doctored (I can't go back to the other pages.. I think that's correct). In order to deceive everybody, the ebay descriptions are long and boring, and try to make the elderly woman sound like she's in her 80s and senile. But in fact admits she's 65?? Instead of blurry pictures so that bidders wouldn't be able to see the defects in these coins, the pictures are crystal clear. Instead of selling large boxes of miscellaneous coins, with vague descriptions, the coins are clearly labeled and graded. Instead of saying she's grading and identifying the coins herself, she states she's getting help from a dealer. Instead of selling all the coins at once, so the coin company can disappear before anybody catches on, she sells them in installments stretching out over a year. Plenty of time for negative feedbacks and ebay to bust in on the scheme. If the coin company is supposed to front as an old lady, why are all the "naive" aspects taken out. People would be bidding like mad if they thought they were getting great bargains from someone who didn't know what they had (human nature to make a quick buck).
Sorry for the sarcastic tone and all, but I needed it to drive home my point. If this was a scam, everything that should have been done to cover it wasn't done. Deb (ealrycoins) is not at fault. I have no opinion on jadecoins. The ultimate proof is the feedback. You can't fool everybody all of the time.
This is taken me a long time to think and write, and still get all my points organized. I probably left something out, that someone will point out. I'll check back after a while.
<< <i>1). Why did Deb claim the 1795 dollar and other doctored coins "came out of the same box" as a bunch of Harold's other early US coins if she was the one who traded them for some colonials? >>
the listing DOES NOT SAY THAT. it does imply that she's doing something "different" as an "experiment" with the 4 coins. and it says there "is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it" your accusation is false, Deb made none such claim.
<< <i>2). If Jade Coin clearly told her the coins had been doctored to look old, why was it that her son was the one who just happened to notice someone tried to polish off graffiti? >>
maybe jade-coin told cliff and he passed it on to deb. her interpetation maybe??? where's the problem here???
<< <i>3). If she received the coins as part of a trade, why did she claim she was selling them for a dealer? >>
that's my interpretation of what she told me, and again may be her interpetration of what cliff said. YOU will need to ask HER directly if you don't trust it
<< <i>4). She claims that she took a bunch of early coins to a local dealer and got only melt value for the coins. Why would she continue to trust Jade Coins if they were the local dealer who ripped her off? If the dealer who ripped her off was not Jade Coins, why would she go to someone she didn't know to sell her early silver when she already had a long and trusting relationship with Jade Coins? >>
obviously, she sold the silver BEFORE her relationship to jade. jade told her she got ripped, offered her honest prices on later coins. they've been helping her out since (my interpretation)
<< <i>Raise my hand if I have better feedback???? I guess if I was leaving feedback for myself I could have BETTER feedback than jadecoin/jadecoins/wildorchyd >>
your claiming that jade left themselves EIGHT HUNDRED POSITIVE FEEBACKS??? there all bogus??? that's the kind of baloney argument that makes me puke. you have nothing to back that up, nada, zilch, zero. obviously you have something personal against them.
<< <i>Professional conservation should not be confused with "Coin Doctoring", in which an attempt is made to improve the appearance and grade of a coin through deceptive means such as artificial toning and where unaccepted or unorthodox methods are employed. Also not qualifying as conservation is restoration where mechanical repairs are made such as filling holes, smoothing out scratches, and re-engraving of detail >>
point out exactly where jade said they "conserved" the coin. THEY GOT IT REPAIRED AND FLAT OUT SAID SO. the real drivel was written by NCS. because anyone who says that repariring holes in rare bust dollars should is unacceptrd or unorthodox is full-of-sh!t, 'scuse my french.
goy, we're talking eBay here. If Occam's Razor is to be used as an excuse for naivety, then there really are a bunch of problem-free coins coming out of estates at bargain prices. And I guess there really must be a Miss Haversham hoard. Why would a dealer make up a story about an old lady burying 55 gallon drums of coins in her back yard?
So her excuse is she deceived people through acts of commission and omission because she didn't know any better?
one more followup with goyankeez, then i'm outta here for a while, 'cause i just can't stand it any more.
according to the scenario invented on this forum, not only is jade-coin fronting as an old lady, doctoring coins by the roll full, and dumping them on ebay at pathetic prices, they are stupid enough to get on this forum, find out we're on to them, then go and post their first and last names on their website in full view, their phone numbers, their street address and po boxes, and they put a link on their first page in obvious reaction to what they read in this forum. then they have the gall to get on the forum themselves and invite anyone who wants to to telephone them personally for more infromation. yeah, sounds like theyv'e got plenty to hide.
not only all that, but the auctions themselves which all features allegedly doctored coins, are undergraded by one or two grades (look for yourself), and started at prices that sound like the 1950's. and bidders obviously love the coins, considering the incredibley positive feedback.
like i said, i've had it with the whole thing. this thread has a ridiculous 200 posts on it regarding perfectly beautiful coins that almost certainly are choice original material, obviously collected long ago.
you know what, after i clean up the puke on my computer screen, i'm going to go surf ebay and bid on every auction i can find that claims to be part of an estate. why not? ther'es less drivel in those listings than there is on this forum.
Ok . . . I'm sorry . . . I'm sorry that I said it was my last post on this thread!
Deb is actually married to Jim Greenman.
Jim and Deb Greenman live on Burlingame Ave, SW, Byron Center, MI 49315. Caledonia and Byron Center share a common boundary line.
It is 10.5 miles from Deb's house to the US Post Office in Caledonia, MI. I mapped it on Yahoo. Surprise, surprise, the Byron Center Post Office in Deb's own town is only 3.2 miles from her house. So, she drives into the next town to use a PO Box that is three times closer than the one she is using for Ebay.
Jim Greenman is approximately 40 years old, and hails from Wyoming, MI, which is another suburb of Grand Rapids. I have a pretty good list of all of his family members, and there is no Cliff among them.
I hope somebody told Harold this before he died . . . or did Jim kill him off?????
Comments
Obscurum per obscurius
K S
Obscurum per obscurius
Please note that we are not responsible for how any coin will be marketed after it leaves our possession.
Regarding the discussion of the damaged 1795 bust dollar. We purchased the coin from a forum member at the Central States Coin show in April. The damage was repaired. Later, as part of our goal to acquire quality colonials, the dollar was instrumental in a transaction with "earlycoins". Due to our reputation and the prominence of our Yellow Pages advertising in West Michigan, opportunities like that are not unusual for us.
We cannot discuss confidential or private information in a public forum. If you have any questions, we invite you to to contact us using any methods described on our website.
James Garcia
Dennis Tarrant
jade Coin Company
Russ, NCNE
and smells like a skunk
it probably taste like chicken
-Dan
For the first time, I do believe, I have gotten well organized for this round of listings. I am actually going to list these coins in order of face value, starting from the lowest through the highest. That may make it easier for you, if you are looking for something very specific. There are alot of early coins in here, and these are from the same box as many of the coins from the last round. There are only about four large boxes left after this, plus several albums and a few odds and ends. Clifford said he might sell off a couple of the coins he had been keeping, but I'm not sure if he really wants to do that. I did have several requests to list some more gold coins. I may do that at a future date if the price of gold keeps rising, but for now, I am going to list just one more. Next month, I may list off a couple of bags of coins that are just bulk amounts of common (I think) silver coins. I think it was a mistake before when I took similar sacks to a local dealer, because those were full of much older coins, yet I later found out I had received what is called "melt value" for them, which is much lower than collector value.
(4) EXTREMELY OLD COINS
Well, I thought I would do something different for this lot of coins. This will be an interesting experiment on my part, because I still have many more coins like these! Included in this listing are four coins, and they are from the same sort of time period in early American history. I will describe each one separately. The first coin is an 1814 dime. It is in a very worn grade, with the date barely showing on it and a couple of the stars and some letters on the back nearly wiped out. However, the picture on the coin is not as blurry as you might expect with as much wear as it has. In fact, in some ways, I rather like this old dime. It has a nice antique look to it. The second coin is an old quarter printed in 1806. It also is very nearly worn out, again with a couple of letters on the front and several on the back being a little bit smudged. However, the picture once again does have a couple of minor details left and is only a little blurry. Third in this lot is a half dollar from 1809, and it seems to be in a little better shape than the other three coins. None of the letters or numbers are blurred at all, and only the main picture is a little bit smudged out. My son Clifford believes there is actually some old mint luster at the edge of the coin! Finally, I will include a silver dollar from 1795, which should be the most valuable of the four coins. It is more worn than the half dollar, but still should have some value, I would think. Cliff noticed that there is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it. Since these coins are older than average and therefore a little more valuable, I'm sorry that I can't start it off at an extremely low value, but I will try to make this affordable to any interested collectors out there. Please remember that this is for a total of four (4) coins, all sold as-is, so I hope they go for a reasonable price.
Something's rotten in the State of Michigan. "Deb" nowhere says these are coins she bought from Jadecoin. If she did buy them, she's leaving out some very important facts and lying by omission. Don't you think it's kind of important that the coins were repaired and supposedly sold as such? Why didn't she say so? Also, why does she write about Harold's collection and not point out that this lot of coins wasn't from his collection at all?
In a reply to a board member, didn't she claim she was selling them for a dealer? If she traded them for other coins, she's lying again.
Whoever wrote the following line should get some sort of award for false advertisers: "I think it was a mistake before when I took similar sacks to a local dealer, because those were full of much older coins, yet I later found out I had received what is called "melt value" for them, which is much lower than collector value." Don't you just want to pity her and hope you'll get some of her early coins like the lot of 4 in question for melt value, too?
Edited to add the link to the auction that sealed Deb's coffin.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>I guess that means earlycoins purposely mis-represented the coin as it was sold to them as being repaired, and they listed with no mention in the short description which was included below the long winded BS story above. >>
Sure looks that way. Shame.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
she apologized and said that "I must admit, Karl, that the final lot of four coins indeed were not from Harold's estate" (no kidding) blah blah, and that they actually belonged to a dealer in DETROIT. "Cliff" allegedly is friends with this dealer and goes to detroit about once a month on business. he told the dealer/friend how well ebay was going, & the dealer asked her to list the dollar with her coins. "deb" rambled on to say that she had not intended for the listing to mislead readers into thinking that it was H's coin, but that in retrospect, she wishes she would have mentioned they it was not actually from his estate. she also claims it was the first time she's listed a coin other than Harold's.
The original auction gives the impression that the coins were from Harold's estate. Deb says a dealer asked her to list the coins for him. A dealer says Deb got the coin in trade. Deb makes no mention of the repair. A dealer says he traded them to her as repaired.
SOMEONE'S not being honest. All I'd like to know if the dealer and Deb are the same someone.
Obscurum per obscurius
You are hiding behind confidentiality. Do you have a written confidentiality agreement with "Deb?" We obviously think you are "deb", and if you feel that we are wrong, you should tell us who "Deb" or "Cliff" really is.
If they are aware enough of the internet to have a website and get on this forum, I would bet the farm that they have sold on EBay. What name have the sold under??? There appear to be several, and not the least of which is "earlycoins" aka "Deb."
We sniffed you fellows out. Now you are soiling the forum with your presence, so get out of our house.
I think they should change their name to "Jaded Coins".
First of all, couple of clarifications. "earlyUS" was registered to someone else up until a couple months ago. I had tried to register it years ago - no luck. But it recently became available, so we jumped on it (would LOVE to have "earlyAmerican"....) It is NOT "earlyusCOINS" (too long). I'll be cancelling "cjade" and "www.earlyUS.com" will become official - when I have the time. The parallel to the ebay handle is simply not there, so sorry. The URL does work though, just points to "www.cjade.com".
Second of all, I agree 100% that "earlycoins" should have mentioned the 1795's problem. I just looked at the auction in question. I CAN'T speak for them, but it does mention an attempt to "scrape off the scratches" and a "shiny area" - things we did mention to them. I seriously doubt anyone can show misleading info, other than that the coins wern't part of the original estate. And that's flimsy at best. Technically, I guess, they became part of the estate upon possession. Coincidence that it was the last auction listed, and out of "denomination" sequence?
Thirdly, as someone requested, we hereby publicly deny operating as "earlycoin" on ebay. (ie. "the dealer and Deb are NOT the same someone"). But we WILL NOT violate confidentiality agreements, which are implicit to any dealings with our customers, and THAT is FINAL. It isn't going to happen. Case closed, and don't ask again. Heck, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter a whole lot to me what uninformed readers think, since they'll believe any fantasy anyhow if they believe half the crap written in this discussion.
Finally, it's laughable to imply that we've hidden our selling activity on ebay! We originally sold under two separate handles and our individual feedback is perfect! Dennis and I merged companies a couple of years ago, thus the merged feedback that someone mentioned. AND we voluntarily unregistered our account per ebay procedures. To put it bluntly, we LOST money selling on ebay, which is why we bailed on it.
That's all I really feel like saying. From our side, this discussion really is silly, but we were invited by THREE OF YOUR VERY OWN MEMBERS to write a statement. AND, TWO of those members are longtime customers of ours!
One last thing, I guess. You have NO IDEA as to the quality of the estate, and I'll say right now that it is probably the best material that I have PERSONALLY handled. You'd be a fool not to pick up some of the coins if they have any interest for them (free plug for Deb).
Sincerely,
James Garcia
Dennis Tarrant
jade Coin Company
Thank you for your very carefully crafted reply.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>you bet:
deb greenman
po 341
Caledonia, MI 49316-0341 >>
Interesting.
I just a a search and came up with Dennis Marcelo Tarrant, 34 years old, Caledonia, Mi.
Ray
I'm waiting for jadecoins to say, "I did not have numismatic relations with that woman!"
-Dan
Camelot
Sealyp
I wonder if "Cliff" actually exists, and if he does, what is his involvement in this alleged conspiracy!?
Dan, that deserves
Obscurum per obscurius
Why is there a confidentiality agreement (which I doubt exists) for a nonexistent relationship??
<< <i>I wonder if "Cliff" actually exists, and if he does, what is his involvement in this alleged conspiracy!? >>
I just did a search for Clifford Greenman, and of the five found, one is a 91-year-old in (where else?) Battle Creek, Michigan!
This is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Did anybody else pick up on the fact that there is a DIFFERENT handle known as JADECOINS (with an "S"), and it has multiple reciprocating feedback with our very on JADECOIN (which has no "S")????????
These two EBay users have different profiles, yet almost identical names. Obviously JADE stands for "JAmes" and "DEnnis" and they have certainly tried to game the system. "JADECOIN" leaving feedback for "JADECOINS"???
C'mon, give us a break for not being total retards. I'll bet your mother didn't even know your father's name.
But, in the end what was proven? Would somebody who was directly involved in this please summarize.
Here's my take on this and tell me if I'm wrong, or missed something:
Harold was considerably older than Deb, having started collecting coins in the early 1940's, and Deb just turning 65. From her letters I thought she was in her 70s or 80s. Why should she make herself YOUNGER. Harold had inherited his coins from his father and continued to collect up until his death. Deb, being somewhat younger, was pretty good at the computer and the internet. She helped Harold buy and sell his coins on ebay. If you look at the feedback left, there is evidence of buying and selling at the same time. After his death, she intended to sell his entire collection, since she had no interest in coins, and neither did her son. The only problem was the grading and identifying of the coins. Early on she found that listing them on ebay, although time consuming and tedious, was the best way to make money.
As for grading the coins, she needed a trusted dealer. Harold had done considerable business with 'jadecoin" on ebay and possibly in person. "Earlycoin", as an ebay username for Harold (and Deb), could have been somehow inspired by jadecoin, or it could have been a coincidence. A large part of Harold's collection were early coins, and jadecoin sells early coins. If you look at "earlycoin"'s feedback to others (around June 2000), they left feedback to "jadecoin" 3 or 4 times. "Jadecoin" even responded and included what was purchased (Bust quarters, bust halfs) and the price. On one occassion "earlycoin" leaves the following praise "SMOKIN' FAST delivery. BESTprices on eBay. Nobody is better than James!!!!!!!!!" When it came time to sell, Deb used this trusted dealer to grade and help with the coins; maybe after trying a few others. She did not know coins. They had considerable contact with each other and made trips back and forth. Location "coincidences" (michigan, missouri) is really jadecoin looking and grading Deb's coins (they have to be in the same place). Every once in a while a coin show in the region would come up where Deb would send her son to try to sell some coins. As stated, the prices weren't good enough. Harold had business dealings with jadecoin, and Deb used jadecoin to grade and/or look at the coins, but jadecoin is not Deb (or Harold). Jadecoin stopped selling on ebay and is no longer registered.
In the end (or beginning?) jadecoin was maybe too involved in how Deb sold her coins, and influenced her too much. The one auction identified was a mistake (misrepresentation); although it may be the only one. Nobody knows for sure what their true intentions were. Miscommunication is possible. How involved jadecoin was is anyone's guess. Her son also had a hand in this.
Harold was spending hundreds of dollars per coin in the years before his death. The selling price of many of these coins are in line with that. Quite a collection indeed!! MAYBE Deb's descriptions are a bit TOO much. MAYBE she's been taken advantage of by certain dealers once or twice. MAYBE some dealers are deceitful. I have no proof one way or another. All I know is, after looking at this evidence and thinking logically, she's probably telling the truth, and the coins she's selling are the coins of her late husband (obviously not the ones she admitted weren't hers).
What would be the cover up? Coin dealers sell on ebay all the time and get good prices. So do regular collectors, selling their collections. Of all the buyers of her coins, many of which are big time dealers, wouldn't something "fishy" surface and result in negative feedback or some complaints. Many are repeat buyers. If somebody is using this "front" to get their kicks, then ok. But, nobody's realizing bigger profits or defrauding anybody (with the one exception). Especially when there's no shipping fees and there's quantity discounts (5-10 percent).
Here's my theory. Feel free to shoot holes in it.
EDITED after certain responses. I'm aware of the one instance, and I assume its the only instance.
Proof Dime Registry Set
I think you missed a key point. Shiroh very clearly showed that a damaged /repaired coin was sold by Deb. Based on Deb's descriptions it seems to me that a reasonable person would believe that this coin had been in Harold's collection for a long time (i.e. prior to coin repair businesses being in existence). Thus, he would bid based on a belief that the coin was in orignal unaltered condition. At best this makes Deb highly unethical and at worst guity of fraud IMO. If you believe "...nobody's realizing bigger profits or defrauding anybody" then maybe you should contact the guy who bought that coin, show him Shiroh's detective work, and ask him what he thinks.
but i think there's something even more important going on here. here's my take on the direction this whole thing has taken. something stinks, but i now do not believe it's the story. i think what stinks is the behaviour of certain forum members who have crossed the line.
it is totaly unacceptable for you to demand the identity of a coin dealers clients, and someone in this thread has done just that. that just reeks of "no class". that makes it sound personal, imo. your freakin nuts.
second, and this is my fault, i see invasion of privacy going on here. i regret having mentioned a first and last name in a previous posting, as well as an address. i should know better. my behaviour was totaly uncalled for. i'm just glad i didn't mention a phone #. my lone salvation is that deb herself put her last name in this last round of auctions. somene tell me, is there a way to go back and remove text from a post?
third, someone keeps bringing up gibberish about jadecoin/jadecoins on ebay, trying to make some point, i guess. bottom line: the merged feedback is a perfect 475 w/ zero neg's. deb's f.b. = 308 w/ zero neg's. total = 783 w/ zero neg's if you believe they are 1 and the same. raise your hand if your f.b. as a seller is better. but after reading this thread, it wouldn't surprise me if someone willing to cross the line would be malicious enough to bid on her auctions w/ a bogus account for the intent of leaving neg f.b. just to make a point.
one last thing, i see a he11uva lot of quoting out of context going on here. all i can say is be careful. i say the line has been crossed by certain members, including me.
no doubt about it, there's one he11uva lot of drivel going on here. problem is, deb ain't the one writing it.
K S
K S
Part deleted: Misread Deb's and jadecoin's admission. This part assumed nothing was admitted. Point was made clear to me. Thanks.
I'm not sure when Harold died, but, like I stated before, purchases were made by Deb's ebay username in 2000. All coins surely weren't found in pocket change.
I'm just pointing out what is possible or probable. Orkham's Razor (spelling ?): "the simplest solution is usually the right one". I love consipiracies and debates, but this argument is getting a little too one-sided. I'm stepping over to the other side, like Henry Fonda in "12 Angry Men." What evidence do we actually have?
Edited after I misread certain prior parts of this thread. My next reply clears a lot of things up. This thread is too long and complicated to find the necessary information. Sorry
Proof Dime Registry Set
<< <i>I'm not sure what jadecoin "admitted" to in the last message >>
they freely admitted to trading the 1795 and potential undisclosed others to "Deb" in return for colonials.
<< <i>this woman has had some contacts with coin dealers >>
they admitted that too!!!
<< <i>It is LIKELY that some dealer included this coin with the rest of her estate, as a way "hiding it" >>
gotta disagree here. i really think the seller was told the problem, and tried to explain it by saying a crisscross was scraped off (the repair) and the coin still had a shiny area (the cleaning). also, if you look at the high buyer's other purchases, he doesn't seem like a fool at all. in fact, i suspect he's a dealer.
1 other thing that i just realize too, the coin did not exactly rock the house on $. here's what i come up with:
final bid price of 1180 - 25 (dime) - 225 (quarter) - 100 (half) minus 50 (ebay fees) minus 10 (shipping) = 770 bucks left for the dollar. if the original price was 625 (according to goose3) plus 75 (repair) = 700, then the dealer and deb made seventy bucks between them, for a grand profit of $35 EACH! and, YOU tell ME where i can get a 1795 bust dollar with any detail on it for $770.
<< <i>All coins surely weren't found in pocket change. >>
where the he11 does it say that???
<< <i>Orkham's Razor (spelling ?): "the simplest solution is usually the right one" >>
here's the reall reason i just had to respond again. where did you get that quote? i've been trying to find out where it came from for a while. wasn't it used on a star-trek episode once? i like it so much, it's becoming my new tag line. if anyone knows the correct spelling, etc, please let me know.
K S
He wrote "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" or "plurality should not be posited without necessity." (Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily) Scientists generally phrase it as: "when you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
i choose simpler argument #1.
K S
Does this sound like the same Deb Greenman that writes descriptions in earlycoin's auctions??? "Deb" forgot to dumb herself down when she left feedback.
Raise my hand if I have better feedback???? I guess if I was leaving feedback for myself I could have BETTER feedback than jadecoin/jadecoins/wildorchyd and whatever other ID's they have used.
Altering a coin's appearance to improve the "collectibility" (interpreted as "salability"), is nothing more than coin doctoring.
Coin conservation vs. Coin Doctoring: You decide which one JADE employs:
Numismatic conservation involves examination, scientific analysis, and reliance upon an extensive base of numismatic knowledge to determine the nature of a coin’s state of preservation and the extent of any damage. Conservation also encompasses appropriate procedures to protect the coin’s original appearance and to guard against future deterioration to whatever extent possible.
Professional conservation should not be confused with "Coin Doctoring", in which an attempt is made to improve the appearance and grade of a coin through deceptive means such as artificial toning and where unaccepted or unorthodox methods are employed. Also not qualifying as conservation is restoration where mechanical repairs are made such as filling holes, smoothing out scratches, and re-engraving of detail
This definition was taken from the NCS website, and I happen to agree with the distinction.
This will be my last post on this thread, so take whatever shot you want.
1). Why did Deb claim the 1795 dollar and other doctored coins "came out of the same box" as a bunch of Harold's other early US coins if she was the one who traded them for some colonials?
2). If Jade Coin clearly told her the coins had been doctored to look old, why was it that her son was the one who just happened to notice someone tried to polish off graffiti? Does she forget that quickly?
3). If she received the coins as part of a trade, why did she claim she was selling them for a dealer?
4). She claims that she took a bunch of early coins to a local dealer and got only melt value for the coins. Why would she continue to trust Jade Coins if they were the local dealer who ripped her off? If the dealer who ripped her off was not Jade Coins, why would she go to someone she didn't know to sell her early silver when she already had a long and trusting relationship with Jade Coins?
There are other questions that need answering, but I'll start with these.
Obscurum per obscurius
I still believe that Deb (earlycoins) is different from jadecoin.
ADMITTEDLY, they have contact. ADMITTEDLY, jadecoin has traded with Deb, and given her the 1795 and others in exchange for colonials (Sorry, I missed that post). ADMITTEDLY, Deb should have disclosed where the coins came from in that one auction. On a previous auction she states The one thing I will say is that I believe many of the best coins were collected straight out of normal pocket money, either by Harold himself, or by his father or grandfather As if to say that most coins were original, and not repaired.
I see a lot of "older people" get taken advantage of; especially when they lose their husband. She has her son, who is trading at shows for her, and she has jadecoin who is helping her sort and grade the coins. I think it would be easy for her to get "lost", between what her son is doing and what jadecoin is doing. Don't forget, she doesn't know much about coins. This one instance, where she ADMITS to omitting certain information, may be the only case.
As for the feedback she left that was questioned, I don't think it was long enough to identify her exact style. How often do we here catch phrases and slang on T.V. or the internet, and, for a moment, use that language. Just for fun. Smokin' fast is not something she would use in a normal conversation; but when you're thinking of something to write in a feedback column; something new and original- why not? Maybe somebody else used it and she copied it.
Back to Occam's Razor (thanks kranky): what is more plausible.
A older woman inherits some coins from her late husband which she sells on ebay... and makes a mistake (or gets involved with something that is over her head at the dealings of her son and/or jadecoin).
Or, a conspiracy where a coin company fronts as an old widow so that they are able to sell coins as originals, which are really doctored (I can't go back to the other pages.. I think that's correct). In order to deceive everybody, the ebay descriptions are long and boring, and try to make the elderly woman sound like she's in her 80s and senile. But in fact admits she's 65?? Instead of blurry pictures so that bidders wouldn't be able to see the defects in these coins, the pictures are crystal clear. Instead of selling large boxes of miscellaneous coins, with vague descriptions, the coins are clearly labeled and graded. Instead of saying she's grading and identifying the coins herself, she states she's getting help from a dealer. Instead of selling all the coins at once, so the coin company can disappear before anybody catches on, she sells them in installments stretching out over a year. Plenty of time for negative feedbacks and ebay to bust in on the scheme. If the coin company is supposed to front as an old lady, why are all the "naive" aspects taken out. People would be bidding like mad if they thought they were getting great bargains from someone who didn't know what they had (human nature to make a quick buck).
Sorry for the sarcastic tone and all, but I needed it to drive home my point. If this was a scam, everything that should have been done to cover it wasn't done. Deb (ealrycoins) is not at fault. I have no opinion on jadecoins. The ultimate proof is the feedback. You can't fool everybody all of the time.
This is taken me a long time to think and write, and still get all my points organized. I probably left something out, that someone will point out. I'll check back after a while.
Proof Dime Registry Set
<< <i>1). Why did Deb claim the 1795 dollar and other doctored coins "came out of the same box" as a bunch of Harold's other early US coins if she was the one who traded them for some colonials? >>
the listing DOES NOT SAY THAT. it does imply that she's doing something "different" as an "experiment" with the 4 coins. and it says there "is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it" your accusation is false, Deb made none such claim.
<< <i>2). If Jade Coin clearly told her the coins had been doctored to look old, why was it that her son was the one who just happened to notice someone tried to polish off graffiti? >>
maybe jade-coin told cliff and he passed it on to deb. her interpetation maybe??? where's the problem here???
<< <i>3). If she received the coins as part of a trade, why did she claim she was selling them for a dealer? >>
that's my interpretation of what she told me, and again may be her interpetration of what cliff said. YOU will need to ask HER directly if you don't trust it
<< <i>4). She claims that she took a bunch of early coins to a local dealer and got only melt value for the coins. Why would she continue to trust Jade Coins if they were the local dealer who ripped her off? If the dealer who ripped her off was not Jade Coins, why would she go to someone she didn't know to sell her early silver when she already had a long and trusting relationship with Jade Coins? >>
obviously, she sold the silver BEFORE her relationship to jade. jade told her she got ripped, offered her honest prices on later coins. they've been helping her out since (my interpretation)
<< <i>Raise my hand if I have better feedback???? I guess if I was leaving feedback for myself I could have BETTER feedback than jadecoin/jadecoins/wildorchyd >>
your claiming that jade left themselves EIGHT HUNDRED POSITIVE FEEBACKS??? there all bogus??? that's the kind of baloney argument that makes me puke. you have nothing to back that up, nada, zilch, zero. obviously you have something personal against them.
<< <i>Professional conservation should not be confused with "Coin Doctoring", in which an attempt is made to improve the appearance and grade of a coin through deceptive means such as artificial toning and where unaccepted or unorthodox methods are employed. Also not qualifying as conservation is restoration where mechanical repairs are made such as filling holes, smoothing out scratches, and re-engraving of detail >>
point out exactly where jade said they "conserved" the coin. THEY GOT IT REPAIRED AND FLAT OUT SAID SO. the real drivel was written by NCS. because anyone who says that repariring holes in rare bust dollars should is unacceptrd or unorthodox is full-of-sh!t, 'scuse my french.
K S
So her excuse is she deceived people through acts of commission and omission because she didn't know any better?
Obscurum per obscurius
and i don't remember anyone asking for excuses.
K S
according to the scenario invented on this forum, not only is jade-coin fronting as an old lady, doctoring coins by the roll full, and dumping them on ebay at pathetic prices, they are stupid enough to get on this forum, find out we're on to them, then go and post their first and last names on their website in full view, their phone numbers, their street address and po boxes, and they put a link on their first page in obvious reaction to what they read in this forum. then they have the gall to get on the forum themselves and invite anyone who wants to to telephone them personally for more infromation. yeah, sounds like theyv'e got plenty to hide.
not only all that, but the auctions themselves which all features allegedly doctored coins, are undergraded by one or two grades (look for yourself), and started at prices that sound like the 1950's. and bidders obviously love the coins, considering the incredibley positive feedback.
like i said, i've had it with the whole thing. this thread has a ridiculous 200 posts on it regarding perfectly beautiful coins that almost certainly are choice original material, obviously collected long ago.
you know what, after i clean up the puke on my computer screen, i'm going to go surf ebay and bid on every auction i can find that claims to be part of an estate. why not? ther'es less drivel in those listings than there is on this forum.
K S
<< <i>I'm not sure when Harold died >>
Fabricated people don't die.
<< <i>dude, exactly where and when was it proven that "mrs. haversham" is bogus? >>
Bwuahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! Good one, Karl. Oh, wait, you actually believe there is even the most remote of possibilities that she existed?
Russ, NCNE
Obscurum per obscurius
Deb is actually married to Jim Greenman.
Jim and Deb Greenman live on Burlingame Ave, SW, Byron Center, MI 49315. Caledonia and Byron Center share a common boundary line.
It is 10.5 miles from Deb's house to the US Post Office in Caledonia, MI. I mapped it on Yahoo. Surprise, surprise, the Byron Center Post Office in Deb's own town is only 3.2 miles from her house. So, she drives into the next town to use a PO Box that is three times closer than the one she is using for Ebay.
Jim Greenman is approximately 40 years old, and hails from Wyoming, MI, which is another suburb of Grand Rapids. I have a pretty good list of all of his family members, and there is no Cliff among them.
I hope somebody told Harold this before he died . . . or did Jim kill him off?????
Obscurum per obscurius