If you go back to her earlier auctions of colonials and early copper, and then look at the Jade Coin Company's early copper offerings - well it sure hints that Harold left a lot of similar copper to Deb and Jade?
Okay, we've determined that Jade Company is in Michigan, and the bogus "Deb" is in Michigan. Shiro and Goose have clearly demonstrated that "she" sold a coin that didn't come from any dead husband's estate. Anybody who's still giving this seller the benefit of the doubt should check the classifieds for sales on bridges.
You guys are great detectives. I must admit that the verbosity in Jade Coin's website is similar to earlycoin's....but I still have to ask, if it is the coin that you want, does it make a difference?
That's strange Russ. But, I'm not much of a computer guy anyway. I will let you all know as soon as I can find the PO Box that Deb had me send her check to (IF I can find it.)
hey goose3, your awake this time of morning? having had the only known contact with the jade dudes, what is your theory behind it all, just a marketing ploy? are they a legit company?
Update: I can't find the address where I sent payment to a couple months ago, but I did find the package that was mailed to me sitting in my office. The return address sticker for Deb on the package says it's from zip code 49316, BUT the post mark on the box says it was sent from zip code 49588. When I wen t back to Jade's web site this morning, all of the Michigan contact information is no longer there (hmm.) But then I remembered that I copied and pasted the Michigan contact info earlier in this thread and the zip code for the Michigan store was 49588, the same as the post mark on Deb's package to me.
Dorkkarl, you don't still have the post auction emails from Deb or Cliff showing where to send payment to, do you?
I never dreamed that I would have sparked a 24-hour story of deceit, espionage, and cover-up. Obviously the Jade guys read the board, since their website had several changes made to it regarding addresses and e-mail addy's over the past 24-hours. All of the "@earlycoins.com" addresses have been changed to new "@excite" addresses.
IMHO, "Harold" is alive and well in the Greater St. Louis area, and "Deb" is laughing all the way to the bank.
Add that to the uncovering of their obviously tampered merchandise, and you have the workings of some top-notch scam aritsts. I fully retract the attitude I had when I started this thread, and concur that Mrs. Haversham she is. -Hoosier
Must be some script there that I am not seeing...Have you checked your view this AM? Hit the refresh button on the page once it is loaded so you are viewing the page as it is, not as it was cached.
i figured it out. according to the domain registration, "earlyUS" is just a "pointer" to jade_cc@excite.com. ie. i guess either address might show up depenidng on what scripts are running, since they are actually one and the same address.
Thought some of you might like to read this post from Jade Coin to a coin conservator...
Thank you, Allen, for performing such an outstanding job on the detail restoration of the 1800 bust dollar. Ive touched up the toning just a bit to suit the look of the rest of my coins. You can look at the finished product here: http://www.cjade.com/stock/l180008.jpg. To the collectors out there: repaired coins are undervalued and therefore a bargain, as long as you know what you are buying. Upon selling this coin, I would disclose the fact that it has been repaired, although I do not believe that even the professionals would detect it on this one. Simply a stunning repair job on a coin originally net-graded by ANACS as AG-3! James Garcia <jadecoin@excite.com> St. Louis, MO USA - Monday, April 08, 2002 at 10:57:02 (EDT)
actually a pretty darned nice coin! considering it's been "retouched". are all their coins "retouched" then???
in a way, it was more fun when the debate was still raging.
well dudes, i for one give up on deb. for me the case is closed, the whole "harold" thing is bogus & i just don't care anymore. i feel lucky that the 3 coins i got from her were nice and fairly priced, but i'll probably dump them ASAP & use the money to invest in something real, like wall street.
You guys are great detectives. I must admit that the verbosity in Jade Coin's website is similar to earlycoin's....but I still have to ask, if it is the coin that you want, does it make a difference?
Yes, it does make a difference. Here is why:
1) The sellers claim their coins are coming out of an old collector's estate, thereby implying they haven't seen the light of day in years.
2) They buy cleaned and otherwise damaged coins, doctor them to look old and original, and sell them that way.
3) Although they do not advertise "these coins have never been cleaned" or "these coins have been altered to look uncleaned," by saying they came out of an old collection they imply the "old" look to the coins is genuine.
The lesson to be learned here is that there is no Santa Claus in numismatics. Scam sellers sell coins under the pretense of being ignorant about their true worth, and greedy buyers assume they are getting a bargain by buying from a novice. In actuality the scammers win by preying on buyers' greed. The buyers are oftentimes not all that knowledgeable about coins, assume the story about the coins coming from an old collection to be true, and do not examine them for tampering.
Now does it make sense why Jade's web page starts as follows?
Welcome to the jädé Coin Company website! We have no signature coins, no colorized coins, no state quarters, no reject coins, no slabs, no grocery carts ...
... but we sure do have attractive early type coins. And isn't that really why you came here?
Just you and the coins, which is the way coin collecting ought to be ...
If Deb and Jade are one and the same, it makes sense for them not to sell slabs. The way the bust dollars have supposedly been doctored they would come back net graded or body-bagged!
I take issue with the claims "no colorized coins" and "no reject coins" if they do indeed alter coins to make them look old. By making them looked toned, they would be colorizing them. By buying cleaned and otherwise damaged coins, they would be, in a sense, selling "reject" coins (at least PCGS and NGC would reject them).
If this all turns out to be a scam, I suggest the following changes in language to adhere to the truth in advertising laws:
i]Welcome to the jädé Coin Company website! We have no signature coins, altered-surface coins, no state quarters, reject coins, no slabs, no grocery carts ...
... but we sure do have seemingly attractive early type coins. And isn't the reason why you came here to get apparent bargains?
Just you and the coins, which is the way coin collecting ought to be but isn't because of coin doctors and other scammers...
As a newbie novice collector, this really scares me! The subject of this thread leads me to believe that most, if not all, coins sold by Jade are "doctored" in a most professional way.
I do not think that anyone is saying that all coins sold by jade is bogus, just that they have been tripped up in what seems to be an altered coin, and that anyone dealing with them, or earlycoins on e-bay had best be cautious in their purchases lest the possibility they will wind up with a piece that would not survive 3rd-party grading. Bodybagging. Like shirohniichan said - let the buyer beware.
I just cruised by their website and found that it contains a lot of dead end links. Kind of like just a shell of a company. Is that what Jade is, just a shell?
Yep. If they hadn't already read the thread they wouldn't have changed their site so quickly (unless it's one of those stranger-than-fiction circumstances).
At least they admitted the coin Spooly link came out of an ACG slab. Their grade estimate on the pitted bust cent would likely make EAC members foam at the mouth, but that's another story.
Coincidentally, "Deb's" first feedback was from jadecoin (NARU). There are several other feedbacks from jadecoin as well.
Also, if you take a look at jadecoin's feedback you can see that it is really feedback given to (at least) two userIDs that was merged upon request to eBay. If you look at the merged feedback made on Aug-03-99 05:49:46 PST you will see it was given by jadecoins to this other userID who's feedback was subsequently merged into jadecoin's. eBay requires "Proof that you are the owner of the old and new User ID" in order to merge the two.
It is apparent that jadecoins has used multiple IDs and on at least one occasion used one to give feedback to another. It doesn't seem too much a stretch to presume "earlycoins" is more of the same.
I got this: --------------------------------------------- Registrant: James Garcia (CJADE-DOM) PO Box 1188 HIGH RIDGE, MO 63049 US
Domain Name: CJADE.COM
Administrative Contact: Garcia, James (JG22929) jadecoins@EARTHLINK.NET James Garcia PO Box 1188 High Ridge , MO 63049 (314) 268-1699 Technical Contact: ValueWeb (HOS237-ORG) hostmaster@VALUEWEB.NET ValueWeb 3250 West Commercial Blvd. #200 Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309 USA 954-334-8000 Fax- - - - 954-334-8001
Record expires on 08-Sep-2003. Record created on 08-Sep-1999. Database last updated on 8-Aug-2002 13:44:59 EDT. ----------------- From: SamSpade.Com
It must have been one of those M. Butterfly dealies.
P.S. Think he met her in a club down in North SoHo?
"The essence of sleight of hand is distraction and misdirection. If smoeone can be convinced that he has, through his own perspicacity, divined your hidden purposes, he will not look further."
I do not think that the seller actually violated any rules, it's just that the coins have a higher potential to be tampered with based on the precedent discovered by the board. The seller had been the topic of discussion a few other times, and had met with fairly favorable reviews, but with the latest facts brought to light there is an undercurrent of heightened awareness to the seemingly intentional misrepresentation of the coin's condition.
Comments
1798 VF-30
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
-Dan
Ok, I think I was all wrong on this "Gal".
The detectives have done a great job!
If you go back to her earlier auctions of colonials and early copper, and then look at the Jade Coin Company's early copper offerings - well it sure hints that Harold left a lot of similar copper to Deb and Jade?
<< <i>I know it was a PO Box in Michigan, but now I'm wondering if it wasn't the same as the Michigan PO Box listed on the Jade Coin web site. >>
The one listed on their site is Missouri.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, on their "How to contact us" link in their website, they list two locations and two PO Boxes. One in Missouri. The other in Michigan.
-Dan
<< <i>Our office is open during normal business hours. Please see:
Dennis Tarrant
In St. Louis, Missouri:
Hours are by appointment only. Please see:
James Garcia
PO Box 714
Fenton, MO 63026
Phone 314-707-7566 (cel)
On the Internet:
The net is always open! Please email
jadecoin@excite.com
dennist@product-des.com
jade_cc@excite.com
Copyright © 2000, 2001 jädé Coin Company
PO Box 714
Fenton, MO 63026 jadecoin@excite.com >>
Are you looking at a different page?
In Grand Rapids, Michigan:
In St. Louis, Missouri:
On the internet:
Hours are by appointment only.
Please see:
Dennis Tarrant
PO Box 888190
Grand Rapids, MI 49588-8190
Phone 616-901-4681
Hours are by appointment only.
Please see:
James Garcia
PO Box 714
Fenton, MO 63026
Phone 314-707-7566 (cel)
The net is always open!
Please email:
dennis@earlyUS.com
or
james@earlyUS.com
Copyright © 2000, 2001 jädé Coin Company
PO Box 714
Fenton, MO 63026 jadecoin@excite.com
This is freaky. What exactly is the URL you're hitting to get that information? That is NOT what comes up for me.
Here is a capture of the entire contact page.
Warning for dialupers: Even though I shrunk the above, it's still a big file.
Russ, NCNE
Didn't she say something in her latest story about Missouri?
http://www.cjade.com/contactu.htm
-Dan
That page does have Michigan listed, but with a street address.
I think they may be using scripting that dynamically generates the page based on the geographic area of the IP address used by the visitor.
Russ, NCNE
Look at the scan I linked above. That IS the URL I went to.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
-Dan
Gary
<< <i>You're kidding, right? "Her" answer doesn't blow a hole in anything >>
i'm just saying that these being the same 2 coins is not definitive "proof" IF the idea that "deb" sold the coin for someone else is plausible.
is "jade coin" the detroit connection???
but i'm convinced now that the whole thing is bogus, NOT that i personally care.
BTW i like their website a lot!
K S
If it is them they sure have found a great marketing tool.....drivel.
K S
Dorkkarl, you don't still have the post auction emails from Deb or Cliff showing where to send payment to, do you?
-Dan
you bet:
deb ??????
po ???
MI
K S
I never dreamed that I would have sparked a 24-hour story of deceit, espionage, and cover-up. Obviously the Jade guys read the board, since their website had several changes made to it regarding addresses and e-mail addy's over the past 24-hours. All of the "@earlycoins.com" addresses have been changed to new "@excite" addresses.
IMHO, "Harold" is alive and well in the Greater St. Louis area, and "Deb" is laughing all the way to the bank.
Add that to the uncovering of their obviously tampered merchandise, and you have the workings of some top-notch scam aritsts. I fully retract the attitude I had when I started this thread, and concur that Mrs. Haversham she is.
-Hoosier
fraud, slabs, and the truth about the hobby today
K S
<< <i>the "@earlycoins.com" addresses have been changed to new "@excite" addresses. >>
dude, i am not seeing that! i clicked on "how to contact us", and it says "dennis@earlyUS.com" and "james@earlyUS.com"!
All I get is:
jadecoin@excite.com
jade_cc@excite.com
Must be some script there that I am not seeing...Have you checked your view this AM? Hit the refresh button on the page once it is loaded so you are viewing the page as it is, not as it was cached.
K S
Thank you, Allen, for performing such an outstanding job on the detail restoration of the 1800 bust dollar. Ive touched up the toning just a bit to suit the look of the rest of my coins. You can look at the finished product here: http://www.cjade.com/stock/l180008.jpg. To the collectors out there: repaired coins are undervalued and therefore a bargain, as long as you know what you are buying. Upon selling this coin, I would disclose the fact that it has been repaired, although I do not believe that even the professionals would detect it on this one. Simply a stunning repair job on a coin originally net-graded by ANACS as AG-3!
James Garcia <jadecoin@excite.com>
St. Louis, MO USA - Monday, April 08, 2002 at 10:57:02 (EDT)
Jade Cin has coin 'restored'
in a way, it was more fun when the debate was still raging.
well dudes, i for one give up on deb. for me the case is closed, the whole "harold" thing is bogus & i just don't care anymore. i feel lucky that the 3 coins i got from her were nice and fairly priced, but i'll probably dump them ASAP & use the money to invest in something real, like wall street.
what's enron stock go for these days???
K S
Yes, it does make a difference. Here is why:
1) The sellers claim their coins are coming out of an old collector's estate, thereby implying they haven't seen the light of day in years.
2) They buy cleaned and otherwise damaged coins, doctor them to look old and original, and sell them that way.
3) Although they do not advertise "these coins have never been cleaned" or "these coins have been altered to look uncleaned," by saying they came out of an old collection they imply the "old" look to the coins is genuine.
The lesson to be learned here is that there is no Santa Claus in numismatics. Scam sellers sell coins under the pretense of being ignorant about their true worth, and greedy buyers assume they are getting a bargain by buying from a novice. In actuality the scammers win by preying on buyers' greed. The buyers are oftentimes not all that knowledgeable about coins, assume the story about the coins coming from an old collection to be true, and do not examine them for tampering.
Caveat emptor!
Obscurum per obscurius
Welcome to the jädé Coin Company website! We have no signature coins, no colorized coins, no state quarters, no reject coins, no slabs, no grocery carts ...
... but we sure do have attractive early type coins. And isn't that really why you came here?
Just you and the coins, which is the way coin collecting ought to be ...
If Deb and Jade are one and the same, it makes sense for them not to sell slabs. The way the bust dollars have supposedly been doctored they would come back net graded or body-bagged!
I take issue with the claims "no colorized coins" and "no reject coins" if they do indeed alter coins to make them look old. By making them looked toned, they would be colorizing them. By buying cleaned and otherwise damaged coins, they would be, in a sense, selling "reject" coins (at least PCGS and NGC would reject them).
If this all turns out to be a scam, I suggest the following changes in language to adhere to the truth in advertising laws:
i]Welcome to the jädé Coin Company website! We have no signature coins, altered-surface coins, no state quarters, reject coins, no slabs, no grocery carts ...
... but we sure do have seemingly attractive early type coins. And isn't the reason why you came here to get apparent bargains?
Just you and the coins, which is the way coin collecting ought to be but isn't because of coin doctors and other scammers...
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>i for one give up on deb. for me the case is closed, the whole "harold" thing is bogus >>
About time, Karl.
Russ, NCNE
-Hoosier
<< <i>How about the idea of emailing Jade and Deb and linking them to this thread for their comments? >>
CD,
I'd bet a dollar to a donut they've already read every word.
Russ, NCNE
At least they admitted the coin Spooly link came out of an ACG slab. Their grade estimate on the pitted bust cent would likely make EAC members foam at the mouth, but that's another story.
Obscurum per obscurius
Also, if you take a look at jadecoin's feedback you can see that it is really feedback given to (at least) two userIDs that was merged upon request to eBay. If you look at the merged feedback made on Aug-03-99 05:49:46 PST you will see it was given by jadecoins to this other userID who's feedback was subsequently merged into jadecoin's. eBay requires "Proof that you are the owner of the old and new User ID" in order to merge the two.
It is apparent that jadecoins has used multiple IDs and on at least one occasion used one to give feedback to another. It doesn't seem too much a stretch to presume "earlycoins" is more of the same.
WH
---------------------------------------------
Registrant:
James Garcia (CJADE-DOM)
PO Box 1188
HIGH RIDGE, MO 63049
US
Domain Name: CJADE.COM
Administrative Contact:
Garcia, James (JG22929) jadecoins@EARTHLINK.NET
James Garcia
PO Box 1188
High Ridge , MO 63049
(314) 268-1699
Technical Contact:
ValueWeb (HOS237-ORG) hostmaster@VALUEWEB.NET
ValueWeb
3250 West Commercial Blvd. #200
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309
USA
954-334-8000
Fax- - - - 954-334-8001
Record expires on 08-Sep-2003.
Record created on 08-Sep-1999.
Database last updated on 8-Aug-2002 13:44:59 EDT.
-----------------
From: SamSpade.Com
Just thought I would add my 2c
-David
Obscurum per obscurius
P.S. Think he met her in a club down in North SoHo?
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
And if so, did anyone report them?
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
The seller had been the topic of discussion a few other times, and had met with fairly favorable reviews, but with the latest facts brought to light there is an undercurrent of heightened awareness to the seemingly intentional misrepresentation of the coin's condition.