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Seeking more opinions on Morgans with black spots. (Updated - Cleaned One)
AdamL
Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭
I didn't know whether to start a new thread, or piggyback off of the other black spot thread. But here goes.
Finally going through my late father's collection/hoard after 8 years. There are 18 CC Morgans, all 1883 and 1884. Got them home from the SDB and 3 have black spot issues of some sort. I immediately took everything out of the holders they were in and put them in PVC free flips. Most had been in 2x2's, but at least 1 was in the soft plastic type of flip that is probably bad for the coins.
Anyway, I'd appreciate opinions on these. Pictures of both sides of the trio and the obverse of the one I think has it the worst.
1
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These happen when cardboard 2x2s come in frequent contact with one another, causing minute tears in the mylar film and allowing the exposed spots to tarnish. It occurs more frequently on silver dollars because the two halves of the cardboard piece together are usually thinner than the coin, which makes coins in those holders prone to coming in contact with each other in a box.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
These three look like nice ms63 level coins. I have removed similar spots with a gentle q-tip application of ms70
Talk about needing a dip,
What in the world were they stored in?
Definitely culls. Not sure a dip could overcome that. Already ruined. Start them on the Bay at melt, get rid of them?
Or / I would Work them with q tip soaked in dip, jewel luster - might work.
Dip them
If you can get the black spots off they appear could get good grade if sent in.
Will our hosts dip, work them? Then get
graded?
They do like really nice coins if can get black spots off.
83cc and 84cc in MS condition with dome spotting are not considered culls
are you getting any graded? you might also send these 3 for conservation
@AdamL
The coins are definitely not Culls…
I would strongly recommend a soak for a few days in pure acetone then air dry and put them in Mylar flips…
As to the spots, they look like fairly unattractive toning and will affect the value downward a bit..however, there is a chance that the coin’s appearance could be improved a bit but if i were you i would find someone with a little experience to help you, otherwise you might devalue the coins quite a bit.
I’ve seen some like that that I thought was from someone dipping them and not being careful and talking right in front of the coins. The spittle droplets turn black like that.
Mr_Spud
4 of the nicer ones currently are.
I considered these 3 for conservation but wasn't sure if they were good candidates for it or not. I'm still trying to make up my mind what exactly to do with them. Prior to this thread I had already had someone suggest MS70 on a qtip. I do have some pretty insignificant coins I could experiment with first.
I can't rule out a dipping from 40-50+ years ago. But @hummingbird_coins explanation about the cardboard 2x2's also makes a lot of sense. They were either loose or stacked on top of each other, mostly in 2x2's for many, many years in a SDB.
They were probably in the SDB since at least the 1980's. I remember seeing them sometime around '06-'08 and I don't believe they looked like this at all then.
I would apply some MS70 rolled on gently with a q-tip, rinse well with distilled water and then a quick acetone bath to be sure there is no residue. if no change then you might choose the conservation route, a few of those spots look close to terminal so there may not be much improvement.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That is one of the most terrible batch of black spotted coins I have seen. As is unsellable unless you start them at melt.
Send them to TPG that can fix that.
Show them after they have been dipped / conserved and graded. (That wb quite a project). Can our hosts do that for you? I am curious if it’s even possible.
Then if that project successful they have potential get MS 63 and higher. Looked them over couple them possibly get 64 or 65. But as is - ruined.
I think it would take a good dip and then working the dark areas with dip soaked que tip. I did that on a peace dollar horribly dark tarnish after decades stored in this guys hot garage. After all that it looked ok and sold at nice price. Took some work. But for those you need a real pro.
For your project you need a pro in that area so hopefully TPG can do that.
Do you have multiple people posting under your account?
Earlier in this thread, you posted:
“ Definitely culls. Not sure a dip could overcome that. Already ruined. Start them on the Bay at melt, get rid of them?”
And this wasn’t the first time that one or more persons using your account have made such contradictory comments.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Enjoy your junk silver.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/14132283#Comment_14132283
He either has memory issues, attention span issues, or is paying an inconceivably little amount of attention possible while still posting. It's well established that he doesn't read other people's posts very often.
I have a number of theories but they're all pretty slanderous and based only on his posting styles so I'll keep them to myself.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Lol - lol the one I dipped, conserved did well.
I thought this might be of interest to some. I rolled MS70 on the worst one with a Qtip. Here is a side by side before and after pic.
Is MS70 formulated to remove tarnish or was it made to remove dirt, grime, and other contamination? You might have better results using a coin dip such as e-Z-est.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think it's supposed to remove all of those things - Tarnish, dirt, pvc, etc.
And I forgot to add I also did give this a 1 hour pure acetone bath after the MS70. But the acetone didn't change anything from how it looked after the MS70 treatment.
I'll buy every similarly preserved CC Morgan you have at cull money. PM me with your offerings.
I would try another round with the MS70 since you have that much improvement. I would consider using a dilute dip (EZest) as a last resort. If you must, make sure that you have something to immediately put it in to neutralize it and then rinse with copious amounts of distilled water.
The label of the bottle of MS70 I have says it removes tarnish. While that may be so, I would be surprised if it removed the tarnish on those dollars.
Yeah the bottle says it removes surface contamination and tarnish.
Aside from commenting on the bottle's label, I don't disagree- I said I didn't think it would work on those spots.
I've had similar spots dip out easily, either diluted or straight EZ-est near running water so that you can quickly wash it off after some Qtip gentle treatment.
Have a pan with baking soda to catch it. I don’t think EZest is great for your plumbing.
If you can figure out what breaks down copper carbon, carbonate, perhaps lime water. Use the fine sanded point of a toothpick or, as suggested to me, a brass needle (which I haven't found)(I instead, made a pointed tool out of #8 gauge copper wire. The theory goes, some metal elements or alloys are softer than the silver and 10% copper alloy in the coin thereby lowering the chance of leaving scratches on the coin. But working close-up under 5X magnification, dip the tool into the lime acid and carefully work the point into the spot. From experience, you'll likely be able to remove some of the spot, lessening its darkness but not all of it as some of the spot may have hardened to a stage where it's unremovable. Only a dremel tool and harsher tool bits can complete the job but the coin will be ruined entirely. And you need a steady hand! And buy some cheap coins with spots to practice on.
A professional jeweler is another option if you can get them to break their code of honor they cling to that prevents them when it comes to artificially improving the value of coins.
And, of course, as someone has already suggested, the more expensive route, send them into PCGS to have them restored. I think they will inform you whether it's possible or to just leave it alone.
Those carbon spots are like tiny miniature volcanoes or can be where the eruption started deep in the surface of the coin. But then again, it might be resting on top of a thin layer of toning which is where you'll have your best success!
But don't just dive into making untried attempts to remove the spots as you can ruin the numismatic value of a coin forever in an instant split second of time! I'm talking about 4-5 years of fine tuning your skills with worthless coins. You don't want to ruin a valuable coin, period! There are many books out there on the subject of removing tarnish and carbon spots. Their experiences and the results with different metals and methods. A quite indulging, comprehensive, time-consuming experience.
Here's a tip, with the use of the glasses you wear on the face, if you wear glasses. I'll drop the popular 5x black case magnifier in between the glasses lens and my eye, held by the side of my nose. This way, I free my hands up to hold up the coin to my eye piece with one hand and use the toothpick or whatever to pick at the spot on the coin with the other. If you have a stereoscope and a way to station the coin, this is likely how the pros do it. Magnify that spot 16X to 32X and really get a good look at what you're dealing with and you'll know how crusty it looks. Or perhaps, it has crystalized. Or you might see it's layered or there's a hard black center. In any event, the adventure can get quite exciting! And who knows.....you might find yourself looking at a few other coins you have once you have mastered the skill and will be overwhelmed when you notice dust or tiny hairs and other debris resting on your coin that'll need removed to not only preserve your coins but to make them look better!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don’t think I would want anything pointed near the surface of those if the pieces were mine.
There are vids on boob tube demonstrating the use of distilled hot water and baking soda powder over aluminum foil to remove similar spots. (chemical reaction)
I tried this last year, carefully, on an expendable Morgan.
Spots came off easily. Do not rub. Rubbing not needed.
.
Agree with this.
Use eZest, dilute with water 30% - 50% and dip for 5-10 seconds and rinse thoroughly. Repeat if needed. Acetone will do nothing for that. Some black spots on Morgans just wont come out. Good luck.
If thats toning ezest will work. If thats carbon it will not come out.
Good luck.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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Doesn't work as well for salad dressing, though.
And can cause cancer, and ravage your liver and thyroid. Fun stuff.
@Cougar1978 What series would you collect if you were a smart coin investor?
I did a quick Qtip application dip with EZest on this one followed by running water and patting down with tissue that had an unattractive black spot on the lower face along with other areas:
Great results, almost cannot tell any of the original spots left a mark.
Looks good.
When I use EZest I add a neutralization step before the water rinse, swishing the coin in a baking soda/water solution (a couple tablespoons baking soda per cup of water - a liquid, not a paste).
Difficult to argue that point.
The last time I asked a grading service to do the conservation I regretted it due to the results, like they had dipped the coin for over the few seconds I do as I try to be very cautious, usually diluted as well. I've seen too many coins ruined by overdipping. The diluted sulfuric acid and thiourea in EZ-est are strong chemicals.