Fate of the CAC Sticker
Goob
Posts: 327 ✭✭✭✭
I’ve been wondering, I know that due to CACG, CAC has decided to make stickering more expensive, but do you guys think that the CAC Sticker will become a thing of the past or do you think it’s here to stay?
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
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This thread may help:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1091840/now-that-cac-is-slowly-phasing-out-the-cac-sticker
I remember another thread recently that posed this same question, but I can't remember what it was called. Maybe others can chime in.
Only John knows for certain.
It may go on for awhile.
There are players still sending PCGS or NGC coins of theirs to be stickered. So I can see that going on for awhile.
It’s a function of how long CAC is willing to operate the sticker mill.
One guy in the club is teaching a seminar called The good, the bad, and the ugly. This is about coins that over time have gone bad in the holder (coin preservation issue). Perhaps he will launch a service that says if your coin is still ok or gone bad in the holder.
I buy CACG coins but all my stickered material sold out. Believe eventually the sticker thing will be discontinued. Learn how to grade and price coins that are PQ.
Many collectors, including myself, are still regularly sending coins to CAC for stickering -- in fact, I just made my first submission in December, and I hope to make more submissions this year. To me, getting CAC stickers optimizes the value of my collection. And with most of my collection being in early PCGS holders, I would never think of cracking them out.
If you follow online auctions and research past auction results, the CAC stickers add value -- coins with CAC stickers sell for more than coins without CAC stickers -- coins with Gold CAC stickers sell for multiples over their Greysheet or retail value. And speaking of Greysheet, they have legitimized the importance of CAC stickers by including pricing columns for CAC stickered coins. And Heritage Auctions, for one example, even has designated "CAC Approved Coinage" auctions, where all the coins either have CAC stickers or they are in CACG holders -- the next one opens for bidding in March.
If CAC were to stop stickering coins, I can only imagine that collectors will seek out holders with CAC stickers even more so, and make them even more valuable than they are now.
Thanks, that was extremely helpful and something most of us hadn’t even considered.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
His insight is astounding. Truly revelatory!
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
I'm just wondering how many stickers are needed? It won't be long until a different colored sticker will be offered, by CAC at a higher price, or some other new or established service and then another and another. This is only my opinion, but unless the coin you're resubmitting is a rare issue or is obviously undergraded, having another grading service take yet another look seems like overkill. Hansen can afford to do this, and I would imagine that his submissions are maybe given a little bump now and then due to the dollars being spent.
I feel like a lot of people don't necessary care about how valuable their coins are, they just send their coins to get graded or stickered just for the heck of it. Other than that, what makes you think there'll be another colored sticker soon?
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
JA will make the call at some point, probably.
Too heavy a topic for a Friday night, many nuances, variables, and contingencies not yet publicly disclosed. I'm gonna post some coins in a bit 🤙.
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Seriously. Now is the time for a parking lot find or a blindside against some random dealer.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
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Obviously I can't speak for everyone that submits to CAC, but I think that one of the primary drivers is people submit to CAC, and to grading services in general, is they DO necessarily care about how valuable their coins are.
And the perception of value, in addition to rarity, demand, eye appeal, etc. ... is much easier to establish when the acceptance of the grade (condition) stated can be mostly agreed upon.
Generally speaking, as of today, that is why PCGS+CAC Green is probably the easiest coin to value, and almost always the most marketable (save for Gold stickered CAC coins and rare TPG holders, which I am not really addressing here).
I suggest this is due to the best perceived marketability and grading standard in the selected 3rd Party Grading (PCGS vs many others), and the most trusted independent 4th part opinion (CAC).
This isn't to say that any TPG or even 4th Party is better or worse, but that this is the current market perception for almost all series of US coins IMO. And again, in some cases, the market favors older holders as well, but that may be as much for the holder's marketability than the grading standard of the service at the time.
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All that said, let's remember that there are now three or four parties involved (directly or indirectly) if the coin is sold;
The seller, who has an opinion, and values the coin accordingly, but often with realistic expectations based on the 3rd, and possibly the 4th party opinions.
The buyer, who also has an opinion, and is the best at determining value (to themselves at least, and overall too, as they do have the ultimate power to spend or not spend). They may also have a more realistic expectation of value based on the 3rd, and possibly the 4th party opinions.
The TPG (Third Party Grading company) acts as an arbitrator of sorts on a coins condition (grade), and (to a certain extent) the marketability of said coin. It becomes a base-line conditional assessment that the buyer and seller can use in negotiation.
And finally, when the 4th Party is used and trusted by the buyer and the seller, in this case CAC (who has made a name for themselves determining coins that are properly (or improperly) graded) ... the negotiation can further be assisted in the base-line conditional and marketability (at least today) assessment that the buyer and seller will use in negotiation.
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This is all probably TMI, but I know you are new here, and hopefully you'll find it helpful.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Virtually everyone cares about the value of the coins they own, and generally they care much more than they are willing to admit.
For me this is best shown in my years of being a full time dealer of coins where we have folks on the boards writing how they don't need CAC (or PCGS or NGC) or they don't care about CAC (or PCGS or NGC) and then when I would offer a coin for sale in an NGC holder those same people would often send me an email asking why it wasn't in a PCGS holder and would I take less because of the perceived market illiquidity of the NGC holder. Alternatively, people would send me a message about a coin without a CAC sticker and ask why it didn't have a sticker or would I buy it back at essentially 100% buyback if they purchased it and it failed to get a CAC sticker or would I give them an even greater discount for the lack of a CAC sticker.
It was even worse at coin shows when folks come up to the table lamenting how they couldn't get a specific coin in a specific TPG holder or get it to sticker at CAC and they were going to now blow the coin out at auction or something like that. Yet when you read something they write on the boards they are often stating they don't care about the opinions of the TPGs or CAC.
You will learn that folks sitting anonymously behind a keyboard will write a lot of things they don't necessarily live by, and I have learned that not really caring about value or liquidity is one of those things.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I do know that many people do happen to care about the value of their coins (and this applies to your comment too @pursuitofliberty ) however there are many coins that are pocket change that are submitted just for experimentation, just to name an example. A lot of coins are also submitted just to have them in a case, not just because it's necessarily worth a lot.
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
"A lot of coins are also submitted just to have them in a case ..."
I disagree with this statement (mostly the "A lot ..." qualification) ... and I think you may want to reconsider what you think of the economics of this hobby.
CAC, as the 4th Party Grader (and the TPG's as well) in the way that I described and they way that they exist, are another layer of cost in the marketability quotient.
Whether we are talking about dealers who want to stock their "case" with inventory ... or collectors who are assembling desirable collections, or investors looking at marketable holdings ... cost matters.
In fact, I think most of us, no matter where we fit in that spectrum, are trying to get things at the least reasonable cost for the most perceived reasonable value.
That said, I doubt there are "A lot" of graded and/or stickered coins (in relation to the overall population extant of these) that were sent in "just because" it would be cool.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I do agree with what you said and that most coins graded are either serious collectors or dealers wanting to fill their case but if you look through eBay there is a surprising number of certified coins that are basically just pocket change
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
There are considerably more coins that are graded for their numismatic value, and your claim of an ebay search of "pocket change" is just one extremely tiny blip that doesn't even register on the radar. PCGS has graded over 4 million morgan dollars alone, not even counting other coin series. I would bet that that number alone is more than the amount of total pocket change ever graded by the TPGs.
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
I think most of the professionally graded pocket-change coins are the result of submitters mistakenly thinking they have valuable coins such as errors or rare varieties. Very rarely are such coins submitted “just for the heck of it”. I base my opinion on having been contacted by a large number of owners of graded pocket-changes coins, who wanted to consign their supposedly valuable items to auction.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CDN President, John Feigenbaum interviewed J/A back in October 2022. J/A announced the following.
"It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service."
Of course things can change, but I think this answers the op's question.
Merry Christmas?
Just remember to keep buying the stickers and not the coins. Crazy world. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Retiring at 55, what day is today?
Many have gone to world or currency which has no sticker thing.
You’re the only one I see offering such advice (even though it’s mocking a buying practice that probably occurs only on very rare occasions).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Honestly it would be cool to see CAC Stickering branch out to world coins!
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
This wasn't pointed directly at you. Just an observation with what is currently the state of our hobby. BST RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Retiring at 55, what day is today?
OR, those that mistakenly submit coins thinking the coins are worthy of a higher grade than what they receive. I speak from experience LOL !!!
I didn’t think it was pointed at me. But the vast majority of buyers that it could have even conceivably been aimed at aren’t guilty of that practice or advice, either.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry for your experience. Many of the coins I was talking about wouldn’t have merited the cost of grading, even if graded much higher.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A couple thoughts for our OP @Goob
The coin market is far greater than eBay. I hope you'll get out to a show, maybe even a major, and see how broad it is. @Davidk7 makes a good point of extant populations, and @MFeld nailed where a lot of these "pocket-change" graded coins come from, with a great assist from @Tom147
And honestly, I wish that CAC wasn't necessary at all, for any coin or series. I'm sure I'm not the only one. But that ship sailed long ago when grading standards shifted, again (and again), and market grading nuances became the norm. Even the sticker isn't always as consistent as some might want to believe (although in a sea of some noticeably over-graded anchors, JA found a niche and has filled it amicably).
My 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Many excellent explanatory posts made in this thread for the uninformed.
CAC has created a demand for more accurately graded coins. The market reflects this demand. For those who dislike this reality, I understand but it doesn't matter. Raging against the new standard won't convince many or change the situation.
The pricing differential creates the opportunity for those who dislike CAC to buy coins that aren't certified with the CAC sticker for less and remain content. As such, I don't respect the hostility shown by the vocal minority.
I also dislike the CAC cheerleading seen on the forum by some and their refusal to consider CAC review failures for their collection. Sure, CAC makes mistakes, certifies unattractive coins, or finds surface alterations (such as an old cleaning) to be unacceptable.
There are many very collectible and beautiful coins that have failed CAC and are desirable to own. IMO, the cheerleaders can certainly collect as they like, but they are unnecessarily narrowing their collecting horizon.
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
There are a few, though.
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Redbook is about $85 for an AG 1855/54. I hope to get it stickered soon.
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Retail for a FR2 1872-S is under $50.
Very good advice, and I actually went to a coin show today! No CAC coins sadly but some things that I really love
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
Did you buy all those? If so, nice haul.
I've always loved the proof coinage of the 1936-1942 era and I bet the Merc is a delight to look at under a loupe. However, I am really intrigued by the 1852 three-cent piece. It appears perfect and original and really nice.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Yeah, all of those were today’s purchases! The 1852 is actually my first trime and honestly for $90 I think I did really good on it! The proof mercury dime is something I’ve wanted to get for a while and so I decided to just go for it and spend $165 on it!
Here’s some up-close pics of both coins if you want to look at em!
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
For those of us that are not experienced in the ways of CAC... When I looked at it some time ago, you had to be in the special circle to submit coins for review. Is that still the case? Is there still a charge/no charge for stickers/losers? If a person sends in a box of 20, how much does one expect to pay? I seem to recall noting over time reading that things have changed considerably and I should have probably pursued this option years ago. Although I don't pursue stickers, the market obviously does.
The CAC website will obviously be the best source of information and the link for it is below, but note that they information for CAC stickering as well as CACG grading, so be certain you read about the stickering submission process-
https://www.cacgrading.com
I just had a group of coins examined by them and they have at least two tiers of submission costs. Coins below a certain threshold are $24.50 each to sticker, if i recall correctly, and above the threshold are $68 each, or thereabouts. I think the threshold might be $5,000 or so before the higher rate kicks in. If a coin fails the sticker process there might be a 10-20% discount on that particular coin submission cost.
I know they used to require you to be an accepted submitter to CAC to mail them coins, and they kept the accepted submitter list limited on purpose, but today I don't know if that is still true. You may just be able to open a new account and mail coin directly. It has been my experience that they log coins into the system the day they receive them and typically mail them back within a week. Their customer service has also been friendly, human and flawless in my experience.
Good luck!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Nice haul! @Goob
I like the looks of the 3c Silver and the Mercury Proof, but I just looked at the 1883 No Cents, and based on the TrueView at least, that's a lovely example!
And I see you stayed true and found a yellow label 30's date Washie, with a MM even! Very nice!!
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@Batman23
What I I know ... if I am wrong hopefully someone will correct me.
Yes, to submit directly to CAC, you would need an account already. My understanding is they quit taking on new Collector submitters a few years ago. Not sure how that works with Dealers.
I know there are Dealers and maybe even a few Collectors who can/will submit for you.
There is still a charge/no charge benefit for Collector submitters, but that only applies for the first 20 coins submitted in each calendar year.
For example, if I send a box of 20 in the Spring and get 15/20, then I know I won't pay for 5 of them, but will pay full price on the rest. My understanding of how the next part works is that if I send another box of 20 in the Summer, I will pay for the entire 20, no matter what.
As for cost, I sent one box of 20 last year (all "economy tier") and did very well (18/20). My Invoice was $499. (that is $24.5 per coin that "passed" plus the S&H surcharges). It was probably another $35. to get them there.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
This is what happens when I don't check before posting!
@TomB for the win!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Well, this topic comes up with some predictable regularity.
In this thread, it has been said that CAC stickers “add value” or “create value.” To me, it’s probably more accurate to say that they identify value (so that others can recognize it too). I and many others currently favor the way JA sees coins and sees the hobby. Eventually, this will change.
At present, the hobby values a certain look and type of coin. These fads and trends wander all over the place in the span of decades and lifetimes. The whole concept of TPG grading, slabs, and stickers, is still a newborn infant in the history of numismatics. Undoubtedly, the CAC sticker, along with certain promotional brands and slabs will fall by the wayside as more popular and modern ideas take over. Market makers and influencers change.
The question isn’t “if”. It’s “when.”
Thank you!
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
@TomB
Non-members will have to submit through a friend or a dealer.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Used to identify value but it’s gone beyond that to adding value because of high demand with limited supply
@tradedollarnut,
I agree, to a point. Certainly anything that restricts supply causes prices to rise. No doubt about that. JA’s evaluation of a coin provides a legitimate service, and his assessment is an informed opinion that provides reassurance to the broader market. Time and time again the market has demonstrated that his ideas and his opinions are valuable.
I just continually like to gently remind (poke?) everyone that PQ coins have always traded at premium prices. How we identify them has changed some. On this forum, it seems that 80% of the time, people attribute the higher prices of CAC coins to the presence of the sticker, period.
The thing that’s actually commanding the majority of the higher price is still on the inside of the slab.
They have, but I think we used to be talking about 10-25% within a grade and now in many cases it’s 2x with or without a sticker. See my example regarding the proof trade dollar in my other thread
I am one of those people who has bought coins without a sticker, then blown them out at a loss and bought equal graded coins with a bean and a huge price premium. Frankly, I have likely overpaid doing this. But, I have never upgraded to CAC unless I liked the CAC coin better to begin with.
The end result is a collection that is 80% CAC, and 20% no CAC.
The coins that are no CAC all have reasons, but are they good reasons? I think not. I have a ms66 that came out of a 2010s vintage ms65+cac holder, and an ms65 that came out of a ms64+cac holder. Should I downgrade to get them back into CAC, or keep the coin in holder that is accurate but borderline high? There are also several coins where the color is too nice... either it is suspiciously beautiful, or there are some hairlines concealed by the toning.
That said many CAC coins also have blemishes. Several appear to be "gentlemen's upgrades" due to high eye appeal or famous provenance. Others lack eye appeal, but have immaculate surfaces and are graded conservatively for subdued luster.
CAC coins on average are better, and some are significantly better. However anyone who isn't dogmatic about an all-CAC set is going to run into natural limits where better coins are available in non-CAC holders for a host of reasons: in-between grade, color with marks, originality without luster, and so on.
And, much to my chagrin, I've sold at least half a dozen non-CAC coins that have later reappeared with beans. Yes, standards do fall over time, even for CAC. At least none of them were coins I deeply loved, because I don't sell those regardless of what CAC thinks!
I personally have gotten a very expensive gobrecht dollar beaned after it failed. Sometimes, the line moves a little either way. That’s why I’m a proponent of paying half off for the right non cac coin if it becomes available - I’ll certainly consider that in the future.