Broken planchet Gold Dollar graded by PCGS

PeakRarities

"Broke in half during striking" but it's an AU 50? Hmmm 🤔

Anyone want to opine?

Byers

This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

The Morgan Dollar broken planchet below is the most famous for this type of mint error:

https://mikebyers.com/uniquemorganmatedpair.html

lermish

I thought the exact same thing upon seeing that Instagram post . I have lots of theories which are essentially impossible to prove without having a look at the coin in hand and, even if so, I don't have the expertise to give a definitive opinion.

At first glance though it seems like either some sort of a grading or authentication travesty.

I would really love for @FredWeinberg to come by and tell us what he thinks of the coin and the grade.

Aspie_Rocco

How is the top half levitating in the holder. Modern rattler? Just an odd background?

skier07

C

Whit

Beautiful! I never thought I'd see two gold half-dollars. Or are they two half gold-dollars?

Seriously ... quite striking (no pun), but what went in refining process to cause this?
Whit

pcgsregistrycollector

I agree. That seems a little off. Wonder if the halves didn't fully separate until later on?

Copperindian

I should hope for this one to be straight graded?

MsMorrisine

@Byers said:
This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

how did the 2 pieces stay together and get so much wear? that'd be a lot of cabinet friction

PeakRarities

@Byers said:
This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

The Morgan Dollar broken planchet below is the most famous for this type of mint error:

https://mikebyers.com/uniquemorganmatedpair.html

But that coin explicitly says "split after strike", and it's UNC. Im just asking more about the explanation provided by PCGS that it "split during striking", which seems unlikely if the coin were able to wear to AU50...

PeakRarities

I always thought "Mint error" means it had to leave the mint that way.

MedalCollector

As you are, I am skeptical that it split during strike. However, it obviously had some form of pre-existing, mint-made weakness within the alloy that allowed it to break apart in this manner.

I’d like to hear what Mike Diamond thinks…
@errormaven

Byers

@MedalCollector said:
As you are, I am skeptical that it split during strike. However, it obviously had some form of pre-existing, mint-made weakness within the alloy that allowed it to break apart in this manner.

I’d like to hear what Mike Diamond thinks…
@errormaven

@PeakRarities said:

@Byers said:
This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

The Morgan Dollar broken planchet below is the most famous for this type of mint error:

https://mikebyers.com/uniquemorganmatedpair.html

But that coin explicitly says "split after strike", and it's UNC. Im just asking more about the explanation provided by PCGS that it "split during striking", which seems unlikely if the coin were able to wear to AU50...

To answer several of you, both the Morgan Dollar and Gold $1 are ‘split after strikes’‘ also known as broken planchets.

Neither was split during the striking!

Mystery solved!

I don’t know why PCGS in their FB post, described it as “split in two during striking due to a weak planchet”.

PeakRarities

@Byers said:

@MedalCollector said:
As you are, I am skeptical that it split during strike. However, it obviously had some form of pre-existing, mint-made weakness within the alloy that allowed it to break apart in this manner.

I’d like to hear what Mike Diamond thinks…
@errormaven

@PeakRarities said:

@Byers said:
This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

The Morgan Dollar broken planchet below is the most famous for this type of mint error:

https://mikebyers.com/uniquemorganmatedpair.html

But that coin explicitly says "split after strike", and it's UNC. Im just asking more about the explanation provided by PCGS that it "split during striking", which seems unlikely if the coin were able to wear to AU50...

To answer several of you, both the Morgan Dollar and Gold $1 are ‘split after strikes’‘ also known as broken planchets.

Neither was split during the striking!

Mystery solved!

I don’t know why PCGS in their FB post, described it as “split in two during striking due to a weak planchet”.

Thanks, that clears things up for me at least. I guess it would be plausible that the coin might have fractured during minting, and didn’t seperate until years later?

PeakRarities

@Copperindian said:
I should hope for this one to be straight graded?

Evidently, you gotta crack it out and snap it in half first.

Byers

@PeakRarities said:

@Byers said:

@MedalCollector said:
As you are, I am skeptical that it split during strike. However, it obviously had some form of pre-existing, mint-made weakness within the alloy that allowed it to break apart in this manner.

I’d like to hear what Mike Diamond thinks…
@errormaven

@PeakRarities said:

@Byers said:
This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

The Morgan Dollar broken planchet below is the most famous for this type of mint error:

https://mikebyers.com/uniquemorganmatedpair.html

But that coin explicitly says "split after strike", and it's UNC. Im just asking more about the explanation provided by PCGS that it "split during striking", which seems unlikely if the coin were able to wear to AU50...

To answer several of you, both the Morgan Dollar and Gold $1 are ‘split after strikes’‘ also known as broken planchets.

Neither was split during the striking!

Mystery solved!

I don’t know why PCGS in their FB post, described it as “split in two during striking due to a weak planchet”.

Thanks, that clears things up for me at least. I guess it would be plausible that the coin might have fractured during minting, and didn’t seperate until years later?

A blank planchet can have a crack prior to being struck, or develop the crack after being struck.

But in both of these coins, the separation into two pieces occurred after striking.

Byers

@PeakRarities said:

@Copperindian said:
I should hope for this one to be straight graded?

Evidently, you gotta crack it out and snap it in half first.

Great example of a cracked planchet on a gold coin, and from the Dahlonega Mint!

It needs to be re-submitted to be designated as a:

Mint Error
Cracked Planchet

It has no business being in a net graded holder and not described as a mint error!

Rexford

If the cracked planchet takes that long after striking to separate, isn’t it probable that a partial crack was forcefully separated, and thus arguably damage?

Also, from what I understand it is possible to crack and break apart a planchet entirely artificially, by bringing it to a very low temperature.

Are there similar cracked planchets in NGC holders?

Byers

@Rexford said:
If the cracked planchet takes that long after striking to separate, isn’t it probable that a partial crack was forcefully separated, and thus arguably damage?

Also, from what I understand it is possible to crack and break apart a planchet entirely artificially, by bringing it to a very low temperature.

Are there similar cracked planchets in NGC holders?

NGC cracked:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/13432/

2windy2fish

@Byers
💯 agree, this coin needs t be resubmitted as a mint error, otherwise PCGS will simply details holder the coin.

Byers

@2windy2fish said:
@Byers
💯 agree, this coin needs t be resubmitted as a mint error, otherwise PCGS will simply details holder the coin.

I have seen cracked planchets in both P and N holders as mint errors, so it’s not an issue…

BLUEJAYWAY

I was always fascinated when a mangled striking error gets a grade. To me, yes it is an error, but a XF-AU? It is still a damaged coin. And yes I do collect them, just would not apply a grade to damaged goods.

2windy2fish

@Byers fairly certain that if this kinda of coin is submitted as a standard coin PCGS will details the coin, however if you submit it as an error they will give it a straight grade (provided there are no other details issues)…

dcarr

I think it circulated for a time as one piece, then fully separated after that.
I do not see any circulation wear on the rough surfaces of the crack walls.

Rexford

@Byers said:

@Rexford said:
If the cracked planchet takes that long after striking to separate, isn’t it probable that a partial crack was forcefully separated, and thus arguably damage?

Also, from what I understand it is possible to crack and break apart a planchet entirely artificially, by bringing it to a very low temperature.

Are there similar cracked planchets in NGC holders?

NGC cracked:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/13432/

To clarify, I’m referring to two fully split halves, not a planchet crack.

PerryHall

I wonder if it's possible to super freeze a coin in liquid nitrogen and then break it in half. I saw a demonstration where a hotdog was put in liquid nitrogen and it shattered like glass when it was hit with a hammer.

FredWeinberg

Good morning – as others have said, that gold dollar did not crack in half during the striking process.
I Certified and described the CC Morgan dollar, but I had not seen the 1849 gold dollar while I was doing the authentication for PCGS Mint errors.

jmlanzaf

@PerryHall said:
I wonder if it's possible to super freeze a coin in liquid nitrogen and then break it in half. I saw a demonstration where a hotdog was put in liquid nitrogen and it shattered like glass when it was hit with a hammer.

Not unless there was a crack or stress defect already. The hot dog or banana and other fun experiments are sacks of water not metals.

errormaven

Mike Diamond, here. Since the gold dollar was struck within the collar, there's little likelihood that it broke apart during the strike. Moreover, the design next to the break shows no weakness or distortion, indicating that the coin was intact when the hammer die withdrew from its surface. A coin is much more likely to break apart when it is not confined by the collar (broadstrike or off-center strike). The break does seem natural, which would suggest that the coin had a pre-existing weakness that was exacerbated by the strike so that the coin fell apart after it was expelled from the striking chamber. I would call this a "broken coin" error, as opposed to a "broken planchet" error.

TrickleCharge

@Aspie_Rocco said:
How is the top half levitating in the holder. Modern rattler? Just an odd background?

I was wondering that as well. The gasket looks like it may be different than the usual ones.

CaptHenway

A coin with an internal metal flaw can indeed break at SOME TIME after it entered circulation. I hold the record.

While I was at ANACS in my early days I was weighing the previous day's new submissions. There was a Silver Denarius of Julius Caesar in an ordinary flip. I slid it out onto a pad, Looked normal. I picked it up by the edge at top and bottom, and it fell in two pieces back onto the pad.

Looking at the insides of the break you could see old crystallization of the metal. I suspect that the envelope it was presumably sent it may have have come under some pressure in the mail, and all it took was my finger tips to finish it off.

We contacted the owner and told him what happened, and offered to reimburse him the owner's declared value, which was $800. He asked to see it before he decided, so we sent it back to him. He then sent it back and said he would take the $800. We gave it to the Museum. The then Curator glued it back together, and it has been on display in the Museum in appropriate exhibits.

CaptHenway

@PeakRarities said:

@Byers said:
This gold $1 sold in Heritage in 2008 for $8,050. The grade has nothing to do with it being a broken planchet ( mint error).

The Morgan Dollar broken planchet below is the most famous for this type of mint error:

https://mikebyers.com/uniquemorganmatedpair.html

But that coin explicitly says "split after strike", and it's UNC. Im just asking more about the explanation provided by PCGS that it "split during striking", which seems unlikely if the coin were able to wear to AU50...

During the GSA sales this piece was found in an original bag in two pieces. I was working at Coin World when they sent us a press release about the coin. They said that it would be sent to a random buyer, with a note explaining its significance. The note asked the buyer to contact them. They sent it out, and did not hear from the buyer. After six months they contacted the buyer (they had kept a note of the buyer's name and address), and asked if he had received it. He had, he just had not bothered to open the package! So, apparently the "random buyer" part was legitimate.

TD

PeakRarities

@CaptHenway said:

We contacted the owner and told him what happened, and offered to reimburse him the owner's declared value, which was $800. He asked to see it before he decided, so we sent it back to him. He then sent it back and said he would take the $800. We gave it to the Museum. The then Curator glued it back together, and it has been on display in the Museum in appropriate exhibits.

I can only imagine being on the receiving end of a call like that...

"Hello, this is ____ with _____ Grading. Is this Dan with Peak?"

"Speaking, how can I help?"

"Yea, uhm.....we had an issue grading one of your coins here......we can either buy it at market value, or we can pay a portion if you want to keep it."

"Oh damn that's a shame, how bad is it, what happened?"

"Well, it uhm......it.....we broke it. It snapped into two pieces unfortunately...."

"😵‍💫?"

TrickleCharge

I have seen nickel, but has anyone ever seen a three cent silver that was split into two like this?

Coinscratch

I grade it 50/50.

PeakRarities

@Coinscratch said:
I grade it 50/50.

@CaptHenway would have had to grade it 50/50 , 50/50 back in the day.

messydesk

@PerryHall said:
I wonder if it's possible to super freeze a coin in liquid nitrogen and then break it in half. I saw a demonstration where a hotdog was put in liquid nitrogen and it shattered like glass when it was hit with a hammer.

If the coin was already cracked planchet error and additional internal planchet impurities that weren't visible, it's possible that such a treatment could help the crack grow, even to the point of breaking the coin apart, as the metal and impurities may expand and contract at different rates under extreme temperatures. For a coin with no impurities, the metal would expand and contract uniformly, so it shouldn't introduce cracks.

lilolme

@Aspie_Rocco said:
How is the top half levitating in the holder. Modern rattler? Just an odd background?

I recalled this before and found my comment which has some links to the ngc airview slab thread. This might be what is going on.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13847625/#Comment_13847625

messydesk

@Aspie_Rocco said:
How is the top half levitating in the holder. Modern rattler? Just an odd background?

It's not a picture of the coin in the slab. It's a composite of the raw coin and a simulated encapsulation of it.

MsMorrisine

a question remains. with complete nd round gasket, how do they keep the half from rolling around? it can't just be about a simulated encapsulization

coinbuf

@MsMorrisine said:
a question remains. with complete nd round gasket, how do they keep the half from rolling around? it can't just be about a simulated encapsulization

Gorilla glue.

messydesk

@coinbuf said:

@MsMorrisine said:
a question remains. with complete nd round gasket, how do they keep the half from rolling around? it can't just be about a simulated encapsulization

Gorilla glue.

I was about to say JB Weld, but I imagine they'll use a smaller gasket than shown to awkwardly hold the fragment securely. There's also the possibility of whatever they used to hold a Henry II penny in place that I have that's not like others I've seen from our hosts before. I'll post a picture of it tonight.

Proofmorgan

I’ve been simmering on this one all week. Circulated and then broke at some point. But wouldn’t that be “post
mint damage”, technically?

JCH22

.

messydesk

This is how i envision them Slabbing this. This Henry II penny is surrounded by a very thin gasket that i think is held between the regular (and prongless) gasket and inside of the front shell. It's not quite centered, but it is stable. The thin gasket might be cut as needed and is thin enough to be easily trimmed.

.

Rc5280

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1110136/pcgs-magic-floating-coin-mount-howd-they-do-it
.

Relaxn

@Copperindian said:
I should hope for this one to be straight graded?

You probably need to have Mike or Fred submit it for you to get the error designation...

asheland

@Proofmorgan said:
I’ve been simmering on this one all week. Circulated and then broke at some point. But wouldn’t that be “post
mint damage”, technically?

But it was indeed a defective planchet even if it took a while to break.

I can see both sides of the argument with regards to post mint damage or actual mint error.

Old_Collector

It is pretty common in ancient silver to have coins, especially those with flan cracks, break. NGC Ancient does not holder them, instead they take a photo and attach the coin in a small mylar pouch, specifically renouncing their normal guarantee.

I got it really cheap and needed a Titus when I first started with Caesars. Now I have quite a few in silver and gold but it is still an interesting curiosity, and looks like it would break easily as the silver is well crystalized.

jmlanzaf

@Proofmorgan said:
I’ve been simmering on this one all week. Circulated and then broke at some point. But wouldn’t that be “post
mint damage”, technically?

Not if the stress line was there from the beginning.

4Redisin

@PeakRarities said:
"Broke in half during striking" but it's an AU 50? Hmmm 🤔

Anyone want to opine?

NUTS! It is a circulated coin, so it DID NOT break apart after "being struck". It broke apart after it circulated (after being struck). If it was out of the slab, we could detect any unevenness between the 2 halves indicating the break was "assisted". A look at the crystalline structure inside the splits would also indicate if any bending was done.