“Carbon” Spots on Small Cents

oldabeintx

This is a killer for me to the extent that I avoid all but the tiniest of spots, and often don’t accept those. I’ve passed on some very nice coins, and have often wondered if I’m being too cautious. My concern about even the smallest spots is that it/they will grow over time. Has anyone experienced such deterioration over time with slabbed coins, properly stored? I live in an area with moderate-to-low humidity and everything is slabbed and kept in a safe with desiccant. Thanks.

OAKSTAR

Well, this isn't small cent but it might represent what you are describing. I've never actually seen this happen on a cent.

BillJones

That spot on the back of Washington's head looks like a killer. It appears to be into the coin.

My biggest problem with copper is not the spots. It's the red that fades to brown in a year or so because the coin was dipped to make it red. Sometimes it's hard to detect, which is why I am a Brown and R&B buyer.

OAKSTAR

@BillJones said:
That spot on the back of Washington's head looks like a killer. It appears to be into the coin.

It is/was a killer! I didn't see it or realize it when I bought the coin years ago. And yes, it was eating into the coin. I don't know where the coin is today (I sold it), but if left untouched, it would probably eat it's way right through the coin.

oldabeintx

I didn’t necessarily mean to
limit discussion to small cents. I’ve always thought that spots on other metals could be conserved IF caught early enough. I had great success with a nickel.
Not so with cents- as far as I know spots are irreversible and cannot be conserved.

Mr_Spud

Low humidity and no temperature fluctuations (which can produce microscopic condensation) slows down or stops just about any form of corrosion, so will be helpful in at least keeping the spots from growing quickly and might stabilize the coin for a very long time.

Elcontador

@BillJones said:
That spot on the back of Washington's head looks like a killer. It appears to be into the coin.

My biggest problem with copper is not the spots. It's the red that fades to brown in a year or so because the coin was dipped to make it red. Sometimes it's hard to detect, which is why I am a Brown and R&B buyer.

Bill, the only RD copper I have is a 1909 P IHC in MS 65 RD. It's on an OGH.

BillJones

@Elcontador said:

@BillJones said:
That spot on the back of Washington's head looks like a killer. It appears to be into the coin.

My biggest problem with copper is not the spots. It's the red that fades to brown in a year or so because the coin was dipped to make it red. Sometimes it's hard to detect, which is why I am a Brown and R&B buyer.

Bill, the only RD copper I have is a 1909 P IHC in MS 65 RD. It's on an OGH.

I have one of those too for type. I've owned it for years, and it has not turned.

seatedlib3991

Prior to 2006 I put together a run of PCGS MS 64 RB Indian cents. My set ran from 1880 to 1909. I also had 6 proof coins and 6 full red coins but they were in various holders and grades.
When covid hit I was forced to sell the vast majority of my Indian cents. That is when I first noticed some micro carbon spotting on 7 or 8 of my RB coins. All coins were stored in Eagle brand slab books. All coins were kept in our house which we keep at comfortable conditions for ourselves.
i took quite a beating when I sold and have not collected any copper coins since. James

oldabeintx

@seatedlib3991 said:
Prior to 2006 I put together a run of PCGS MS 64 RB Indian cents. My set ran from 1880 to 1909. I also had 6 proof coins and 6 full red coins but they were in various holders and grades.
When covid hit I was forced to sell the vast majority of my Indian cents. That is when I first noticed some micro carbon spotting on 7 or 8 of my RB coins. All coins were stored in Eagle brand slab books. All coins were kept in our house which we keep at comfortable conditions for ourselves.
i took quite a beating when I sold and have not collected any copper coins since. James

It may be that some of your coins “carried” moisture into the slabs before you acquired them. Were the 7 or 8 newer slabs? I know some buyers of copper have a strong preference for early slabs as they may denote stability. I’m very reluctant to cross or reholder more valuable copper for fear that they may be contaminated during the process.

Mr_Spud

If it is in an older slab and hasn’t turned, you know it’s got a legit thick skin which should be stable

seatedlib3991

I don't know the ages of the holders. I can say that two of the non PCGS 64 set were the old rattler holders. Those coins were both full red and did not develop any kind of spots. All coins were stored together which is why I doublt enviroment made any difference. It may be true that older holders can be trusted to be stable but besides spots I wonder how "safe" color grades are. i have been told that the grading services set a time limit on how long they stand behind a color designation but don't know if that is true or not. james

oldabeintx

The PCGS guarantee does not apply to color changes or spotting. I suppose one could get satisfaction if a coin was very recently slabbed, as a clerical error, but there is no time period mentioned in the guarantee.

Elcontador

The PCGS guarantee does apply to RD copper if you can prove you acquired the coin before a certain date (2010)? Don Willis told me that too many doctors were making RD Lincoln cents which turned a month or two after they were graded, and the doctoring was so good, it could not be detected in the grading room.

As others have said, you don't know a coin's history. Someone may have sneezed on a coin before it was encapsulated and years later, it can go bad. This happened to me with a Draped Bust Half Cent. I won't buy a pre 1815 copper unless it's in an OGH or earlier holder because of this.

oldabeintx

@Elcontador said:
The PCGS guarantee does apply to RD copper if you can prove you acquired the coin before a certain date (2010)? Don Willis told me that too many doctors were making RD Lincoln cents which turned a month or two after they were graded, and the doctoring was so good, it could not be detected in the grading room.

As others have said, you don't know a coin's history. Someone may have sneezed on a coin before it was encapsulated and years later, it can go bad. This happened to me with a Draped Bust Half Cent. I won't buy a pre 1815 copper unless it's in an OGH or earlier holder because of this.

No offense but I very much doubt that older acquired cents are routinely treated differently than their written guarantee. Lots of red coins out there from the early years.

lusterlover

I guess I've been lucky but I've been collecting RD and RB copper for 35 years and never had one turn. I have both old and new slabs.

In regard to the "spots", there's a distinction between something ON the coin and something growing IN the coin. Surface crust which can denote originality will not continue to grow and harm the coin. I think some quality coins are passed over because people confuse the two. The coin in your original post is black/green death.

renomedphys

Several dealers I know use the term “active” to describe a spot that isn’t stable. A great example of this is PVC contamination. It’s unfortunate, but a lot of the coins we continue to collect were stored in a PVC flip at one time or another. The PVC breaks down and gasses out inside the flip. Copper is very reactive so over time any that deposited on the coin’s surface will react and continue to react until the reactants are used up.

As far as I know, those tiny carbon “flyspecks” we all know and love aren’t “active”. Big black spots, though?

Elcontador

@oldabeintx said:

@Elcontador said:
The PCGS guarantee does apply to RD copper if you can prove you acquired the coin before a certain date (2010)? Don Willis told me that too many doctors were making RD Lincoln cents which turned a month or two after they were graded, and the doctoring was so good, it could not be detected in the grading room.

As others have said, you don't know a coin's history. Someone may have sneezed on a coin before it was encapsulated and years later, it can go bad. This happened to me with a Draped Bust Half Cent. I won't buy a pre 1815 copper unless it's in an OGH or earlier holder because of this.

No offense but I very much doubt that older acquired cents are routinely treated differently than their written guarantee. Lots of red coins out there from the early years.

Don Willis told me otherwise a number of years ago. The written color guarantee re RD copper only applies to such coppers when you can prove such ownership going back before the change in the copper guarantee.

oldabeintx

Don Willis told me otherwise a number of years ago. The written color guarantee re RD copper only applies to such coppers when you can prove such ownership going back before the change in the copper guarantee.

Aha. That’s very fair. The NGC limitation apparently applies to copper coins over 10 years old, but they may not have modified their guarantee.

Cougar1978

Carbon spots are a no go for almost all buyers. For me black spotted coins just don’t make the team.

The 56 quarter above w horrible black spot is an example of a coin gone bad in the holder but not to worry:

A friend buys them if price is right for his - The good, the bad, and the ugly collection.

Elcontador

The carbon flecks are okay if they are buried somewhere on the coin so you have to look very closely to see them, otherwise, a hard pass.