Toner Premiums Fool's Play ?

john_nyc1

Everyone loves a great toner. But I know chemists are repro-ing this stuff too the point where I cannot tell AT versus NT. To their credit they disclose "AT". But how long before the toning premium goes to zero?

TomB

I doubt it will ever go to zero. However, I also realize that many folks have been doing their darnedest to monetize AT for many years and some have been quite successful. It also does not help that in my opinion PCGS has taken a blind eye to certain types of toning that scream AT to me, but they apparently don't care.

In the end, perhaps the safest toned coins will be those in old holders or with old images attached to them that show their stability and that they were toned in various ways before AT became good enough to mimic them.

U1chicago

I've seen this topic brought up for over a decade since I have followed the forums (and one can find even older threads). There are claims of some doctors who have created AT coins that cannot be distinguished from NT. However, the proof of this is usually questionable at best. And even if the doctors are out there, the quantity produced is no where near enough to saturate the market. The majority of AT tends to be obvious and those coins don't impact the natural toner premiums. One issue is what @TomB mentioned-the TPGs straight grading some AT coins. The thing there though is that the premiums have not fallen; instead the straight graded AT coins sell for multiples of guide.

I don't see toning premium ever going to zero because eye appeal will always bring a premium (and the right toning adds eye appeal). Plus, history has shown us for the last 20-30 years that the premium has not disappeared (there have been periods where it dropped but plenty of others where it has increased dramatically).

JohnnyCache

@TomB said:

In the end, perhaps the safest toned coins will be those in old holders or with old images attached to them that show their stability and that they were toned in various ways before AT became good enough to mimic them.

That was my thinking, hence I saved these images...

Clackamas1

There was a really good video that the ANA had on spotting AT vs. NT. I will try to find it.

A trained eye can tell the difference, hence why PCGS graded coins command the premium. A quick and dirty eye test is to look at the devices around the edges. If the toning is uniform on them and the fields it is AT. Real NT takes time and the metal is "harder" with the struck devices and will tone less or not at all and couple that with the height difference which should give you a difference.

Also a tell is the color of the toning since different chemicals will react differently. Sulfur is the most common and that are your blues and rainbows. Phosphorus will give you shades of red.

SAE's tone very quickly though and seeing them toned is not unusual. I actually have had a hard time not having them tone when exposed to air.

MFeld

@Clackamas1 said:
There was a really good video that the ANA had on spotting AT vs. NT. I will try to find it.

A trained eye can tell the difference, hence why PCGS graded coins command the premium. A quick and dirty eye test is to look at the devices around the edges. If the toning is uniform on them and the fields it is AT. Real NT takes time and the metal is "harder" with the struck devices and will tone less or not at all and couple that with the height difference which should give you a difference.

Also a tell is the color of the toning since different chemicals will react differently. Sulfur is the most common and that are your blues and rainbows. Phosphorus will give you shades of red.

SAE's tone very quickly though and seeing them toned is not unusual. I actually have had a hard time not having them tone when exposed to air.

Sometimes a “trined eye” can’t be certain or tell the difference. And the reason that a lot of PCGS coins command premiums has nothing to do with trained eyes, as other grading companies obviously employ them, as well.

zippcity

$$$$

MFeld

@John_nyc1 asked:
“ Toner Premiums Fool's Play?”
“But how long before the toning premium goes to zero?”

I’ve seen questions that were similar to the first one asked for decades.
But that might be the first time I’ve seen a question like the second one include a “zero” premium in it.

seatedlib3991

The day people are indifferent to beautiful coins start worrying. Beyond that, collect what you like. James

4Redisin

@Clackamas1 said:
There was a really good video that the ANA had on spotting AT vs. NT. I will try to find it.

A trained eye can tell the difference, hence why PCGS graded coins command the premium. A quick and dirty eye test is to look at the devices around the edges. If the toning is uniform on them and the fields it is AT. Real NT takes time and the metal is "harder" with the struck devices and will tone less or not at all and couple that with the height difference which should give you a difference.

Also a tell is the color of the toning since different chemicals will react differently. Sulfur is the most common and that are your blues and rainbows. Phosphorus will give you shades of red.

SAE's tone very quickly though and seeing them toned is not unusual. I actually have had a hard time not having them tone when exposed to air.

I made the mistake of dipping a few new Silver Eagles to brighten them up. I left them out for a few weeks and they started to tone a little.

Cougar1978

Yes but more a manipulative sales pitch type of thing to promote tarnished coins.

One guy who has lots big ticket stuff (his site) one of his pricey toners about CPG x 3. I wonder if he has some equation for toner pricing or just roulette wheel spin.

fathom

Some stuff you can recognize right away is accelerated, some you cannot. Regardless is all a chemical reaction. I don't think any one person is able or even a group of people are 100% correct on everything. We would love to think none of our coins have been messed in the past but we would be wrong.

Anyway they are slipping through in straight holders to all the major auction houses and retailers and selling for premium. This will not change until 100% verification (if that is possible) and collectors do not care about aesthetically pleasing coins.

john_nyc1

Thanks for the insights all. I think it is an excellent point about having the coins in old holders, if possible. John

asheland

For my personal collection, if I have any doubt whatsoever, if it’s natural toning or not, I’ll pass… I only want them if I’m just positive that it’s natural…

Some are in older holders, but some are not.

These are a few that I am comfortable with…
and quite fond of

fathom

oih82w8

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder for coin that resides in a straight grade holder. Some folks pay lots of $$$ for some color. I know I have in the past.

U1chicago

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

Elcontador

The best artificially toned coins are only known as such by the coin doctors who created them. If in doubt, pass. I'd never pay a huge toning premium for a coin.

fathom

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

U1chicago

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

PQGoldBean

This is NT. I know it looks AT.

jmlanzaf

@PQGoldBean said:
This is NT. I know it looks AT.

Define NT

fathom

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

That was a portion of why I posted the pic. Of course it is AT. The point was these are slipping by TPGs and ALL auction houses as essentially manufactured items.

Yes they are market acceptable. Market acceptable is an overused term. Everything is market acceptable, it all comes down to price.

Like Buffett says, Price is what you pay Value is what you get.

Please note the post number, thanks.

U1chicago

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

That was a portion of why I posted the pic. Of course it is AT. The point was these are slipping by TPGs and ALL auction houses as essentially manufactured items.

Yes they are market acceptable. Market acceptable is an overused term. Everything is market acceptable, it all comes down to price.

Like Buffett says, Price is what you pay Value is what you get.

Please note the post number, thanks.

Post number noted.

It’s far from being a certain case of AT. There are obvious cases and this is not it. The coin has been in that holder since at least 2017 so it’s not new either. And I haven’t seen more like it, so if someone created it, that was a fortunate one-off attempt.

jmlanzaf

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

That was a portion of why I posted the pic. Of course it is AT. The point was these are slipping by TPGs and ALL auction houses as essentially manufactured items.

Yes they are market acceptable. Market acceptable is an overused term. Everything is market acceptable, it all comes down to price.

Like Buffett says, Price is what you pay Value is what you get.

Please note the post number, thanks.

Post number noted.

It’s far from being a certain case of AT. There are obvious cases and this is not it. The coin has been in that holder since at least 2017 so it’s not new either. And I haven’t seen more like it, so if someone created it, that was a fortunate one-off attempt.

Market acceptable is all that matters. I would call album toning "artificial" as it is due to chemicals in the paper. Others say it is "natural" to store coins in (cheap) cardboard. It's a silly argument, especially when people buy old Wayte albums or Kraft envelopes to intentionally "naturally" tone their coins.

Copperindian

My short answer to the OP’s query is “no”. There’s a major contingent of tone “freaks” or fans, whether the coins are NT or AT. Many don’t care; I do.
I tend to opt for a nice toner over a RD (I mostly collect copper). I’m not perfect - I know there’s some AT’s in my collection. With those, as always, I’m ruled by eye appeal.
A previous poster mentioned older slabbed coins lean toward NT. I tend to agree with that observation as time tends to reveal “doctoring”. Not always, though, so I look them over (probably too infrequently) to see is there’s been any changes. Plus, a mentor early on emphasized the importance of proper storage. I follow his guidance religiously.
Finally, I’ve been a collector for a number of years. Learning more & more over time is part of this endeavor. Like most, I’ve made mistakes, but those seem to diminish over time.
And, to each his own. If another collector seems to pay up for a toned coin I might pass on, good for him/her. It’s not up to me or anyone else to criticize the choice they’ve made.

U1chicago

@jmlanzaf said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

That was a portion of why I posted the pic. Of course it is AT. The point was these are slipping by TPGs and ALL auction houses as essentially manufactured items.

Yes they are market acceptable. Market acceptable is an overused term. Everything is market acceptable, it all comes down to price.

Like Buffett says, Price is what you pay Value is what you get.

Please note the post number, thanks.

Post number noted.

It’s far from being a certain case of AT. There are obvious cases and this is not it. The coin has been in that holder since at least 2017 so it’s not new either. And I haven’t seen more like it, so if someone created it, that was a fortunate one-off attempt.

Market acceptable is all that matters. I would call album toning "artificial" as it is due to chemicals in the paper. Others say it is "natural" to store coins in (cheap) cardboard. It's a silly argument, especially when people buy old Wayte albums or Kraft envelopes to intentionally "naturally" tone their coins.

I agree that market acceptable is what matters and that is why I tend to use that term in many cases. And yes the natural vs artificial debate can be silly, especially when the focus is intent, which isn’t the best barometer.

PQGoldBean

@U1chicago said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

That was a portion of why I posted the pic. Of course it is AT. The point was these are slipping by TPGs and ALL auction houses as essentially manufactured items.

Yes they are market acceptable. Market acceptable is an overused term. Everything is market acceptable, it all comes down to price.

Like Buffett says, Price is what you pay Value is what you get.

Please note the post number, thanks.

Post number noted.

It’s far from being a certain case of AT. There are obvious cases and this is not it. The coin has been in that holder since at least 2017 so it’s not new either. And I haven’t seen more like it, so if someone created it, that was a fortunate one-off attempt.

Market acceptable is all that matters. I would call album toning "artificial" as it is due to chemicals in the paper. Others say it is "natural" to store coins in (cheap) cardboard. It's a silly argument, especially when people buy old Wayte albums or Kraft envelopes to intentionally "naturally" tone their coins.

I agree that market acceptable is what matters and that is why I tend to use that term in many cases. And yes the natural vs artificial debate can be silly, especially when the focus is intent, which isn’t the best barometer.

Nothing shows the true power of the PCGS holder than PCGS graded mon$ter toned generic coins.
Even NGC doesn't have that power.

BillJones

I don’t pay for toners PERIOD.

U1chicago

@PQGoldBean said:

@U1chicago said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

@U1chicago said:

@fathom said:

That was one of several examples last night at GC that showed very strong premiums.

I did not post that because it sold for a premium.

It’s not AT if that was the insinuation. I can see someone being skeptical but it’s within the market acceptable spectrum.

That was a portion of why I posted the pic. Of course it is AT. The point was these are slipping by TPGs and ALL auction houses as essentially manufactured items.

Yes they are market acceptable. Market acceptable is an overused term. Everything is market acceptable, it all comes down to price.

Like Buffett says, Price is what you pay Value is what you get.

Please note the post number, thanks.

Post number noted.

It’s far from being a certain case of AT. There are obvious cases and this is not it. The coin has been in that holder since at least 2017 so it’s not new either. And I haven’t seen more like it, so if someone created it, that was a fortunate one-off attempt.

Market acceptable is all that matters. I would call album toning "artificial" as it is due to chemicals in the paper. Others say it is "natural" to store coins in (cheap) cardboard. It's a silly argument, especially when people buy old Wayte albums or Kraft envelopes to intentionally "naturally" tone their coins.

I agree that market acceptable is what matters and that is why I tend to use that term in many cases. And yes the natural vs artificial debate can be silly, especially when the focus is intent, which isn’t the best barometer.

Nothing shows the true power of the PCGS holder than PCGS graded mon$ter toned generic coins.
Even NGC doesn't have that power.

PCGS toned Morgans tend to have the largest premiums based on what the market has shown us. TrueView photos used to be a part of that premium but that has been lacking lately. Still the market mainly continues to value the same toned coin in a PCGS holder higher than in an NGC holder (hence people still cross their NGC toners to PCGS).

Cougar1978

Generally not a buyer of toners. As time goes on the tarnish gets worse - exposure to atmosphere, heat, humidity, salt air, biological attack. Not to mention the AT bandits.

For solid RCI buy coins that are brilliant / PQ - nice blazers with super luster very little toning if any. As far as toners regard that as a sort of Wild West speculative area.

Chattermonkey

A couple of years ago when I first got into collecting, toners caught my attention and I wanted one that featured full spectrum of vibrant colors. Couldn't justify 25x value of BU at the time and decided to pass. I'd still love to own one but now I feel like I'd only be comfortable buying one in an older PCGS holder. I wonder why the majority of the toners I see for sale are in newer gen holders, hmm...?

U1chicago

@Chattermonkey said:
A couple of years ago when I first got into collecting, toners caught my attention and I wanted one that featured full spectrum of vibrant colors. Couldn't justify 25x value of BU at the time and decided to pass. I'd still love to own one but now I feel like I'd only be comfortable buying one in an older PCGS holder. I wonder why the majority of the toners I see for sale are in newer gen holders, hmm...?

Many are in newer holders because people wanted TrueView photos (back when those were better), wanted to cross NGC/other TPG examples, and for upgrades (color bumps pay off-there are plenty of examples of older holders or even relatively newer ones upgrading and paying off for the person who got the upgrade).

davewesen

Colorful coins that are attractive are works of art, compared to their black and white equivalent works of art. There will always be a premium if attractive.

Catbert

@BillJones said:
I don’t pay for toners PERIOD.

I pay for toners PERIOD.

(assuming the coin is all there).

Catbert

TomB

That proof Buffalo is not all there, @Catbert. Please mail it to me for proper disposal. Thank you.

Cougar1978

Sure go for it get that money. Looking at some of them here (inventories) seen some asking 3x CPG on toners.

I picked up a nice looking CACG toner recently below CDN bid. Then looked at comps and will shoot for CPG x 2 matching them - shall see what it can do. Single digit pop coin, neat pickoff. Maybe shop for more of them.

But watch out - a friend sent about 10 slabbed toners to CAC (non CAC), none stickered.