Can someone tell me how this 1836 CBH is graded MS64+ w/ CAC approval at Heritage?
Goldbully
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I realize the O-114 variety has a soft strike, but a 64+?
Please educate me.
Description from Heritage:
1836 O-114 Half Dollar, MS64+
Early Die State
1836 50C Lettered Edge, O-114, R.2, MS64+ PCGS. CAC. Star 7 is repunched, as is the flag of the 5 in 50 C. The present near-Gem ranks solidly in the Condition Census for the variety. The ice-blue and silver-gray surfaces teem with luster and are devoid of apparent contact. The strike shows selected softness, as is customary for the die marriage, but the eye appeal is nonetheless remarkable.
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Comments
I am NO EXPERT and will wait for the experts here to comment...........but looks nice to me
boston
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I have no problem with that grade.
Because it’s technically extremely nice. Strike does not affect grade below gem. If it didn’t have that issue maybe it would be gem.
Looks like a very eye appealing quality coin.
Does the black spot on the obverse bother you?
I personally think it technically is a 64 but the eye appeal suffers from the spot(s).
The spot is a bit bothersome, but not a game changer.
I posted this thread to get educated on CBH's with weak strikes, yet are considered near gem.
Not a coin that I would buy.
I think that's a lovely coin and the luster actually made my mouth water a little bit. heheh. I don't know half dollars, but I'm a big fan of bust coinage in general, and a lot of the half dimes that I'm a fan of have interesting die swelling and show things like weakness in the left wing or really pronounced flow lines in the obverse in front of Liberty's mouth (just two examples of many). The half dollar you show here has a die swelling similar to that of this 1832 LM-8.4 half dime - look at the motto. That's not a problem, it's a diagnostic! Incidentally, this half dime is MS65 with a CAC approval.
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It seems to depend on each person but to me that spot is hard to overlook in a top end UNC coin that carries a significant price tag. I would be more forgiving if it was an XF or AU coin though.
Looks right, but as other have said the spot is a distraction.
Luster and toning are big positives.
Carbon spot and striations are negatives for eye appeal.
64 seems about right.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Interesting coin, for sure. I think the strike held it back about as much as the spotting did, but I am okay with the grade.
Please note, that doesn't mean I would be okay with the price ... but the grade I can live with.
Why? Well, from a technical standpoint, this is what I think I see from the images ...
Luster and surfaces (and number of marks) are MS66 or better quality
Overall color and texture also seem to be 66 quality
Strike is weak and can not be ignored, so MS64 at best (and while 114's are never really full, this one is weak)
Spotting is slightly negative (although they are small and do not appear to be deep), so MS64 at best
64+ seems like a very applicable grade given the positive and slightly negative attributes
My 2c ...
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Remember CAC only is agreeing with it being an ms64 and not an ms64+ if you had forgotten that fact
Would not be a buyer on it due to dark spot in field. Plus other areas of dark tarnish. It’s simply a no go for me.
The amount of absolutely jaw dropping luster got it the grade and the + . It looks to be just oozing with unbroken cartwheels. There are several abrasions and some minor spotting that make me think it’s accurately graded.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Common issues with that year Bust half; probably in hand the luster is impressive.
Here's a 64 example from CoinFacts.
1836 50C O-114 Lettered Edge
I think as others have said, technically it is all 64+. My problem with the coin is 2-fold - spots and roller marks(?) on the cheek. Spots just detract and I can’t look at a coin with spots in high visual areas. Apparently CAC does not mind detracting spots and definitely neither do the TPG’s. Maybe they downgrade the coin for them? But I have seen untold dozens of Indian Cents in MS65 (and 100s in lower grades) with ugly spots in high visual areas. I avoid them as I would the coin in the OP here.
Problem with coins like these is that when you image them, the spots become even more apparent. Maybe in hand they are not so bad, but we are in the internet age and we mostly look at our coins in images on a screen. So………..
I will take the one in post above every day and probably pay more for it than the coin in the OP.
Best, DM
Spotting and weak strike notwithstanding, I think the coin is accurately graded. I don't think I could overlook the distractions on that one, though I probably would have held the + on it.
30's dates are my favorite with respect to eye appeal, and I'll tolerate minor spotting on a nice 64 when it's not a prime focal area -
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Looks nice and original to me. The spot likely held it back from Gem.
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Hopefully @Goldbully doesn't mind me taking a slight deviation in direction but the OP coin does have the strike condition.
@Bikergeek You mentioned die swelling when discussing the weak strike on the banner / motto. Any more specific information or description of that?
Below is an 1834 I have (tried to get decent pictures with the snap-o'matic as it does not have a TV) and it has significant weakness in part of the banner and the similar area on the obverse bust but is otherwise well struck (some weakness in C of 50 C). I notice that this weak banner area lines up with the lower bust on the obverse, so a couple of opposing high points. Also in the weak area the banner is wider (top to bottom) and this is also seen in the radius of the banner (inner and outer radii flare in/out). So I was thinking, but don't know, that the die was eroded at this weak area.
Looking at coinfacts other images for this Overton (114) this condition appears to be progressive as there are varying degrees of the weakness. Kind of similar to a die crack that is seen growing for various die states.
So back to the die swelling, how is that working? I can imagine stuff but don't want to throw out guesswork.
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Gem Mint State requires a sharp strike at the grading services. This graded only MS-64+ because of the weakness, and would likely grade higher if it was sharp.
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It reminds me of an 1836 Capped Bust half that I owned about ten years ago. I wasn't that enamored with the coin and I graded it XF 40 when it was raw. It didn't sell for a while so I sent it in for grading, it got an MS62 which at the time was the highest graded coin of that variety. So grading can vary on these early coins with the die bulges, weak dies, weak strikes, etc.
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WOAH! I'd love to see photos of that coin to observe. I've heard of crazy bust half upgrades in TPG holders as standards developed. Too bad those aren't around with much frequency
Reminds me of a GTG of a booker T that resulted in guesses from Good-6 to MS-65.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13675317#Comment_13675317
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
@lilolme said:
Good question, and a fine day for me to review the section Degradation of the Working Die in my Logan-McCloskey half dime book. (Starts on page 40, for those of you reading along at home!)
This section talks about die wear and what descriptions we apply to the die states: VEDS (very early die state), EDS, IDS (intermediate), LDS (late), and VLDS. Then goes into die cracks, partial and full die cuds, and die chips or filled letters. Turning the page, I see die bulges or swelling which I'll replicate here:
Still other dies were improperly hardened or alloyed to survive the repeated strikings from the press. These dies were so soft that the design sank and created a "bulge or swelling" on the coin. Because working dies were expensive and in short supply, they were often kept in service until they simply could no longer produce a legible coin.
The section goes on to explore Instantaneous Die Degradation which includes die clashing, die polishing or lapping, and die rusting.
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
I think it is the strike not the spot that keeps it from gem. Gem coins can have toning and spotting in 66 to even 69.
Yes, I had it on my website for awhile as a raw XF40. Anyone could have bought it and submitted it. Eventually, since it wasn't selling. I decided to submit it for grading, figuring it might sell as a result of being slabbed. A good guess on my part.
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It is a 66 with a soft strike. Seems right.
CAC ignores the plus grade when deciding to sticker it. I believe CAC stickered it a a 64. Still nice near gem coin but with spotting negative.
I'm editing my post so PLEASE IGNORE THE BOLD: "As nice as it left the press. I love it. That coin would have been snatched up at a coin show if it were graded XF. OP must have had a big price on it."
I was corrected for posting about the wrong coin.