@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
And I see new collectors being brought in to the market as well to start a new hobby.😉
Agreed. @fathom can dislike the concept however much he likes but a a couple of thousand coins that he assumes are overgraded because they are in NGC holders and/or is prejudiced against the gambling aspect of VB are not enough to move the market.
It's really extremely pearl-clutchy and demonstrably wrong. If he thinks VB/WitterBrick/etc will long term negatively affect the valuation, pricing integrity and interest level of rare coins, how does he explain approximately 165,000 gem or higher 1881-S Morgan Dollars. (To pick one example out of MANY)
165,000
Explain to me why these uber common coins sell for more than melt plus a few dollars but 2000 random NGC graded coins in promotional holders are an existential threat to the hobby?
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
And I see new collectors being brought in to the market as well to start a new hobby.😉
I don't think they realize that it is a different type of collector.
I just bought a collection of silver that was all PCGS/NGC world-wide NCLT. Very pretty but most of it not worth more than melt. All of it cost much more than melt. But the guy who had owned it had fun with it. He had zero classic U.S coins despite collecting for 20 years.
There is no reason that someone can't enjoy mystery games. Put together a random collection of coins they enjoy and never put together a classic coin collection like a lot of people here. But they have FUN.
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
And I see new collectors being brought in to the market as well to start a new hobby.😉
I don't think they realize that it is a different type of collector.
I just bought a collection of silver that was all PCGS/NGC world-wide NCLT. Very pretty but most of it not worth more than melt. All of it cost much more than melt. But the guy who had owned it had fun with it. He had zero classic U.S coins despite collecting for 20 years.
There is no reason that someone can't enjoy mystery games. Put together a random collection of coins they enjoy and never put together a classic coin collection like a lot of people here. But they have FUN.
Agreed. Many have fun while being exposed to different coins and grades.
In the end they may make money or lose money but they still hold the coin, show it to others and hopefully they become interested in starting their own collection. 😎
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
And I see new collectors being brought in to the market as well to start a new hobby.😉
I don't think they realize that it is a different type of collector.
I just bought a collection of silver that was all PCGS/NGC world-wide NCLT. Very pretty but most of it not worth more than melt. All of it cost much more than melt. But the guy who had owned it had fun with it. He had zero classic U.S coins despite collecting for 20 years.
There is no reason that someone can't enjoy mystery games. Put together a random collection of coins they enjoy and never put together a classic coin collection like a lot of people here. But they have FUN.
Agreed. Many have fun while being exposed to different coins and grades.
In the end they may make money or lose money but they still hold the coin, show it to others and hopefully they become interested in starting their own collection. 😎
The majority lose money, and a lot.......................
@Desert Moon said:
I was in the queue to buy one, but then I came back to my senses - this is unregulated gambling, not 4 me. If being taken is fun, so be it, enjoy.
The $999 price tag was too steep for me. I bought some of the less expensive ones though.😉
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
And I see new collectors being brought in to the market as well to start a new hobby.😉
I don't think they realize that it is a different type of collector.
I just bought a collection of silver that was all PCGS/NGC world-wide NCLT. Very pretty but most of it not worth more than melt. All of it cost much more than melt. But the guy who had owned it had fun with it. He had zero classic U.S coins despite collecting for 20 years.
There is no reason that someone can't enjoy mystery games. Put together a random collection of coins they enjoy and never put together a classic coin collection like a lot of people here. But they have FUN.
Agreed. Many have fun while being exposed to different coins and grades.
In the end they may make money or lose money but they still hold the coin, show it to others and hopefully they become interested in starting their own collection. 😎
The majority lose money, and a lot.......................
There is a bottom to the loss and you know that before you buy one if you take the time to do your homework.
VB website lists ALL of the coins ahead of the sale so you can see your odds and potential loss.
Unlike gambling, you don't lose your entire bet because VB gives all buyers the opportunity to sell their coin back to VB.
@SethChandler said:
This is the first thread that I’ve ever seen about mystery boxes that is someone positive and civil.
Go VB!
Took a couple of years and lots of painful moments.! Most of my threads were shutdown. I was accused by a few members of being a VB "insider"and I stopped trying to post any new threads after VB 3.
I took a break from the forum for over 6 months only to come back and see that Whitter Brick mystery boxes were somehow ok to discuss but I still didn't post anything about VB until today.
So far you are correct! Let's see what Monday brings!😂🤣
@SethChandler said:
This is the first thread that I’ve ever seen about mystery boxes that is someone positive and civil.
Go VB!
Took a couple of years and lots of painful moments.! Most of my threads were shutdown. I was accused by a few members of being a VB "insider"and I stopped trying to post any new threads after VB 3.
I took a break from the forum for over 6 months only to come back and see that Whitter Brick mystery boxes were somehow ok to discuss but I still didn't post anything about VB until today.
So far you are correct! Let's see what Monday brings!😂🤣
I briefly talked to Brandon (very recently formerly of Witter Coin) about mystery boxes yesterday, among other topics. Interesting conversation.
@Desert Moon "Taken"??? Is every single decision someone makes in their life based on financial utility only? Is someone taken buying groceries at Whole Foods instead of Walmart? Is someone taken playing golf at Pebble Beach instead of the local dog track? Is someone taken playing blackjack? What about all of the people gambling in Super Bowl pools tomorrow?
The risks and expenses are fully disclosed. I like coins. I have disposable income. Instead of gambling on the game tomorrow, I chose to gamble on VB despite knowing it is hugely minus EV. Was I taken?
I don't like any gimmicky stuff, especially since the payout percentage for VB must be lower from the start because of marketing and packaging, but at least Shane is an impeccably honest guy, so I'm sure it's as advertised. I'd be delighted to get a 3 ounce gold nugget, wow.
@tcollects said:
I don't like any gimmicky stuff, especially since the payout percentage for VB must be lower from the start because of marketing and packaging, but at least Shane is an impeccably honest guy, so I'm sure it's as advertised. I'd be delighted to get a 3 ounce gold nugget, wow.
The payout at GC must be lower due to "marketing and packaging" also. It's a cost of all businesses. The payout on a slab must also be lower than a raw coin due to "packaging".
Mystery boxes aren't an investment. It's a fun game for people who like to play those types of games.
I'm not an investor in these mystery boxes but I open up every thread that talks about peoples finds, good and bad. I'm in the camp that favors anything that might trigger interest in coin collecting. I still might try one someday. Keep up the positive comments!
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
Value destruction...you cannot control that. Bottom line is a coin is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it at the point of sale. Period.
There are too many variables that control a coin's value decreasing or increasing at any given time.
It's ok to state you don't like VaultBox or any other type of mystery box concept but it is wrong to attack the integrity of a well established and respected TPG by claiming they are grading a coin higher just to sell it in a mystery box.
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
It takes hundreds of thousands, at least. You are truly making a grand and majestic mountain out of the tiniest of molehills.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
That's absurd. How long? How about until the Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the Earth's orbit? What happened to value destruction before third party grading when a SIGNIFICANT percentage of dealers routinely overgraded and overpriced raw coins to sell to the public? Whether out of ignorance or malice, that still happens every day today. No concerns there?
Just to be clear, your opinion is: There are several thousand NGC graded coins being sold in a non-traditional way, and those few thousand coins are all so vastly overgraded that they are going to destroy the value of the rare coin market.
-You haven't looked at any of the coins and have no clue whether any of them is undergraded, properly graded, or overgraded based on NGC's grading criteria.
-A few thousand common coins, even if each of them is overgraded by several points, is nearly completely insignificant in regards to the US coin market.
Silence is acquiescence is a cute catchphrase; I'm sure you think you're saving the coin collecting hobby with these fantastical portents of doom. Here's a more fitting catch phrase for this scenario: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
EDIT: Ahh...@fathom is a doomsayer who overreacts to current events. Never mind any of the above, it likely won't sink in regardless of its truth.
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
And why are VB coins any more likely to be overgraded than any other coins?
Show me one scintilla of evidence that any value destruction had taken place and I'll flip. But there is no such evidence. A VaultBox MS64 Morgan sells for the same as any NGC MS64 Morgan because IT IS an NGC MS 64 Morgan.
You've assumed that VB coins are overgraded with ZERO evidence and then you are assumimg that this handful of allegedly overgraded coins is somehow moving the whole market.
Given that some VB coins have CACed is evidence that they are NOT overgraded.
I'm not being silent. I'm promoting it as fun FOR SOME PEOPLE. If other people having FUN is ruining your FUN, maybe you are doing it wrong.
One of the biggest market perturbations in history was the creation of registry sets. Please start a thread calling for the end of that (wrong kind of) fun. Silence is acquiescence.
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
And why are VB coins any more likely to be overgraded than any other coins?
Show me one scintilla of evidence that any value destruction had taken place and I'll flip. But there is no such evidence. A VaultBox MS64 Morgan sells for the same as any NGC MS64 Morgan because IT IS an NGC MS 64 Morgan.
You've assumed that VB coins are overgraded with ZERO evidence and then you are assumimg that this handful of allegedly overgraded coins is somehow moving the whole market.
Given that some VB coins have CACed is evidence that they are NOT overgraded.
I'm not being silent. I'm promoting it as fun FOR SOME PEOPLE. If other people having FUN is ruining your FUN, maybe you are doing it wrong.
One of the biggest market perturbations in history was the creation of registry sets. Please start a thread calling for the end of that (wrong kind of) fun. Silence is acquiescence.
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
PCGS and CACG are making what I feel is a constructive effort to tighten grading for the long term benefit of the market. And we cheer these games to bring in potential collectors with MS64 coins that will eventually sell for 62 money or less?
It's been said on here many times with overwhelming consensus, that liberal graded coins hurt values when sold. That is a fact, there is your evidence.
Yes I am self interested for my collection value and the market.
I said my politically incorrect speech, thank you all for the frank and courteous discussion. Lerm, I will allow you to take back your personal assault comments.
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
And why are VB coins any more likely to be overgraded than any other coins?
Show me one scintilla of evidence that any value destruction had taken place and I'll flip. But there is no such evidence. A VaultBox MS64 Morgan sells for the same as any NGC MS64 Morgan because IT IS an NGC MS 64 Morgan.
You've assumed that VB coins are overgraded with ZERO evidence and then you are assumimg that this handful of allegedly overgraded coins is somehow moving the whole market.
Given that some VB coins have CACed is evidence that they are NOT overgraded.
I'm not being silent. I'm promoting it as fun FOR SOME PEOPLE. If other people having FUN is ruining your FUN, maybe you are doing it wrong.
One of the biggest market perturbations in history was the creation of registry sets. Please start a thread calling for the end of that (wrong kind of) fun. Silence is acquiescence.
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
PCGS and CACG are making what I feel is a constructive effort to tighten grading for the long term benefit of the market. And we cheer these games to bring in potential collectors with MS64 coins that will eventually sell for 62 money or less?
It's been said on here many times with overwhelming consensus, that liberal graded coins hurt values when sold. That is a fact, there is your evidence.
Yes I am self interested for my collection value and the market.
I said my politically incorrect speech, thank you all for the frank and courteous discussion. Lerm, I will allow you to take back your personal assault comments.
Peace.
I was talking coins strictly from the vb and wb games. and i'm not sure that they are being liberally graded on purpose
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
WRONG. It's really not that complicated. To use round numbers so that you can understand the concept more easily... The sponsors buy $70k of coins. They sell 100 boxes at $1000 each to bring in $100k. Average value of the coin received is $70, although some will be lower and some will be higher. Sponsors keep $30k. Why does anything have to be misgraded for that to work?
I retract none of my earlier statements, whether you perceive them as personal assaults or not.
Funny how people spend hours at a coin show looking for special coins from $100-$1000’s of dollars yet they are willing to blindly throw money away for a box of rubbish. They may as well go to any dealer at a show, give him/her $500 and say surprise me a box full of whatever you want to get rid of. Guarantee you that there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
@Colonialcoin said:
Funny how people spend hours at a coin show looking for special coins from $100-$1000’s of dollars yet they are willing to blindly throw money away for a box of rubbish. They may as well go to any dealer at a show, give him/her $500 and say surprise me a box full of whatever you want to get rid of. Guarantee you that there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
My guess is the buyers of VB are not the customers who spend hours at a coin show.😉
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
WRONG. It's really not that complicated. To use round numbers so that you can understand the concept more easily... The sponsors buy $70k of coins. They sell 100 boxes at $1000 each to bring in $100k. Average value of the coin received is $70, although some will be lower and some will be higher. Sponsors keep $30k. Why does anything have to be misgraded for that to work?
I retract none of my earlier statements, whether you perceive them as personal assaults or not.
Maybe he was referring to the numbers on the slab?
NGC would never use a different standard for VB labels rather than regular labels. It's not even their product. Why would they risk their reputation? His comment is simply wild conjecture that defies logic
@Colonialcoin said:
Funny how people spend hours at a coin show looking for special coins from $100-$1000’s of dollars yet they are willing to blindly throw money away for a box of rubbish. They may as well go to any dealer at a show, give him/her $500 and say surprise me a box full of whatever you want to get rid of. Guarantee you that there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
My guess is the buyers of VB are not the customers who spend hours at a coin show.😉
Not necessarily. I spent 6 hours at my local coin show on Friday. But I have roughly 15 coins on my list, from the $2,500-$50,000 range, all of them scarce, none of them likely to found there. It's a way for me to gamble and have fun with coins when I can't find any of my target coins. When I can't find any of my target coins, I also write articles, work on my website, update my registry set, etc, etc.
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
WRONG. It's really not that complicated. To use round numbers so that you can understand the concept more easily... The sponsors buy $70k of coins. They sell 100 boxes at $1000 each to bring in $100k. Average value of the coin received is $70, although some will be lower and some will be higher. Sponsors keep $30k. Why does anything have to be misgraded for that to work?
I retract none of my earlier statements, whether you perceive them as personal assaults or not.
Maybe he was referring to the numbers on the slab?
NGC would never use a different standard for VB labels rather than regular labels. It's not even their product. Why would they risk their reputation? His comment is simply wild conjecture that defies logic
Looking at his old posts and his current refusal or inability to even understand what he is criticizing leads me to agree that logic is not a strength.
@Colonialcoin said:
Funny how people spend hours at a coin show looking for special coins from $100-$1000’s of dollars yet they are willing to blindly throw money away for a box of rubbish. They may as well go to any dealer at a show, give him/her $500 and say surprise me a box full of whatever you want to get rid of. Guarantee you that there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
My guess is the buyers of VB are not the customers who spend hours at a coin show.😉
Not necessarily. I spent 6 hours at my local coin show on Friday. But I have roughly 15 coins on my list, from the $2,500-$50,000 range, all of them scarce, none of them likely to found there. It's a way for me to gamble and have fun with coins when I can't find any of my target coins. When I can't find any of my target coins, I also write articles, work on my website, update my registry set, etc, etc.
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
WRONG. It's really not that complicated. To use round numbers so that you can understand the concept more easily... The sponsors buy $70k of coins. They sell 100 boxes at $1000 each to bring in $100k. Average value of the coin received is $70, although some will be lower and some will be higher. Sponsors keep $30k. Why does anything have to be misgraded for that to work?
I retract none of my earlier statements, whether you perceive them as personal assaults or not.
Maybe he was referring to the numbers on the slab?
NGC would never use a different standard for VB labels rather than regular labels. It's not even their product. Why would they risk their reputation? His comment is simply wild conjecture that defies logic
Looking at his old posts and his current refusal or inability to even understand what he is criticizing leads me to agree that logic is not a strength.
my whole life improved slightly when I started to ignore a couple folks who were driving me nuts
Indubitably. Such is the case with any sweepstakes/lottery/etc.
Absolutely. It's the potentially inflated claimed valuations, expected retail markups, and unregulated, unsupervised distribution of winners that makes these particularly dangerous for the average collector/gambler, and different from straight games of chance involving cash at regulated and supervised gambling enterprises.
That was an problem, at least for me, when these were new, and everyone didn't fully understand all the potential issues. At this point, yeah, all the possible gotchas are out there for all to see, so I don't begrudge anyone their fun, or anyone else their ability to exploit it for profit.
@MsMorrisine said:
too many coins extant and too few VB players to affect coin market. i just see some potential collectors being burned out of the hobby
And I see new collectors being brought in to the market as well to start a new hobby.😉
I don't think they realize that it is a different type of collector.
I just bought a collection of silver that was all PCGS/NGC world-wide NCLT. Very pretty but most of it not worth more than melt. All of it cost much more than melt. But the guy who had owned it had fun with it. He had zero classic U.S coins despite collecting for 20 years.
There is no reason that someone can't enjoy mystery games. Put together a random collection of coins they enjoy and never put together a classic coin collection like a lot of people here. But they have FUN.
Agreed. Many have fun while being exposed to different coins and grades.
In the end they may make money or lose money but they still hold the coin, show it to others and hopefully they become interested in starting their own collection. 😎
The majority lose money, and a lot.......................
There is a bottom to the loss and you know that before you buy one if you take the time to do your homework.
VB website lists ALL of the coins ahead of the sale so you can see your odds and potential loss.
Unlike gambling, you don't lose your entire bet because VB gives all buyers the opportunity to sell their coin back to VB.
It’s not “unlike gambling”, it is gambling. The fact that participants don’t lose their “entire bet”, doesn’t change that.
Please note, I’m not condemning the activity, just opposed to any attempt to distinguish it from gambling.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@lermish said:
By the way... really surprised nobody was interested in the teaser pic I posted yesterday.
Responsible gambling is fun. Getting stupid lucky is even more fun...
Please post what you get. Most of the nuggets are small and fit in a standard or thick holder. But 97 grams! That's over three ounces - not to mention no idea of the shape.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
@lermish said:
By the way... really surprised nobody was interested in the teaser pic I posted yesterday.
Responsible gambling is fun. Getting stupid lucky is even more fun...
Please post what you get. Most of the nuggets are small and fit in a standard or thick holder. But 97 grams! That's over three ounces - not to mention no idea of the shape.
Fools Gold. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
@lermish said:
By the way... really surprised nobody was interested in the teaser pic I posted yesterday.
Responsible gambling is fun. Getting stupid lucky is even more fun...
Please post what you get. Most of the nuggets are small and fit in a standard or thick holder. But 97 grams! That's over three ounces - not to mention no idea of the shape.
Fools Gold. RGDS!
Solid contribution as always. A fake quote earlier, and now a random comment. Your insight is appreciated for what it's worth.
@Cameonut I am not a nugget connoisseur but this one seems a little boring. I like the quartz but the shape doesn't do much for me. Either way, it's already been sold.
@lermish said:
By the way... really surprised nobody was interested in the teaser pic I posted yesterday.
Responsible gambling is fun. Getting stupid lucky is even more fun...
Please post what you get. Most of the nuggets are small and fit in a standard or thick holder. But 97 grams! That's over three ounces - not to mention no idea of the shape.
Fools Gold. RGDS!
Solid contribution as always. A fake quote earlier, and now a random comment. Your insight is appreciated for what it's worth.
You remind me of the mother-in-law. Buy $1k worth of lottery scratch offs, "win" $200 and instead of realizing you are down $800 you call yourself up $200. BTW that's one ugly nugget (should of been labeled quartz nugget not gold). How many boxes did you buy to get that? lol THKS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Comments
Agreed. @fathom can dislike the concept however much he likes but a a couple of thousand coins that he assumes are overgraded because they are in NGC holders and/or is prejudiced against the gambling aspect of VB are not enough to move the market.
It's really extremely pearl-clutchy and demonstrably wrong. If he thinks VB/WitterBrick/etc will long term negatively affect the valuation, pricing integrity and interest level of rare coins, how does he explain approximately 165,000 gem or higher 1881-S Morgan Dollars. (To pick one example out of MANY)
165,000
Explain to me why these uber common coins sell for more than melt plus a few dollars but 2000 random NGC graded coins in promotional holders are an existential threat to the hobby?
I don't think they realize that it is a different type of collector.
I just bought a collection of silver that was all PCGS/NGC world-wide NCLT. Very pretty but most of it not worth more than melt. All of it cost much more than melt. But the guy who had owned it had fun with it. He had zero classic U.S coins despite collecting for 20 years.
There is no reason that someone can't enjoy mystery games. Put together a random collection of coins they enjoy and never put together a classic coin collection like a lot of people here. But they have FUN.
But, but, but we are the arbiters of what is fun for others!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Agreed. Many have fun while being exposed to different coins and grades.
In the end they may make money or lose money but they still hold the coin, show it to others and hopefully they become interested in starting their own collection. 😎
I was in the queue to buy one, but then I came back to my senses - this is unregulated gambling, not 4 me. If being taken is fun, so be it, enjoy.
The majority lose money, and a lot.......................
The $999 price tag was too steep for me. I bought some of the less expensive ones though.😉
There is a bottom to the loss and you know that before you buy one if you take the time to do your homework.
VB website lists ALL of the coins ahead of the sale so you can see your odds and potential loss.
Unlike gambling, you don't lose your entire bet because VB gives all buyers the opportunity to sell their coin back to VB.
This is the first thread that I’ve ever seen about mystery boxes that is someone positive and civil.
Go VB!
Took a couple of years and lots of painful moments.! Most of my threads were shutdown. I was accused by a few members of being a VB "insider"and I stopped trying to post any new threads after VB 3.
I took a break from the forum for over 6 months only to come back and see that Whitter Brick mystery boxes were somehow ok to discuss but I still didn't post anything about VB until today.
So far you are correct! Let's see what Monday brings!😂🤣
I briefly talked to Brandon (very recently formerly of Witter Coin) about mystery boxes yesterday, among other topics. Interesting conversation.
@Desert Moon "Taken"??? Is every single decision someone makes in their life based on financial utility only? Is someone taken buying groceries at Whole Foods instead of Walmart? Is someone taken playing golf at Pebble Beach instead of the local dog track? Is someone taken playing blackjack? What about all of the people gambling in Super Bowl pools tomorrow?
The risks and expenses are fully disclosed. I like coins. I have disposable income. Instead of gambling on the game tomorrow, I chose to gamble on VB despite knowing it is hugely minus EV. Was I taken?
By the way... really surprised nobody was interested in the teaser pic I posted yesterday.
Responsible gambling is fun. Getting stupid lucky is even more fun...
SWEET! CONGRATULATIONS!
You got a golden nugget! I have a couple of them myself!
The first pic is the one I got from a VB 3 box. The second pic is the one I bought from their website:
I don't like any gimmicky stuff, especially since the payout percentage for VB must be lower from the start because of marketing and packaging, but at least Shane is an impeccably honest guy, so I'm sure it's as advertised. I'd be delighted to get a 3 ounce gold nugget, wow.
The payout at GC must be lower due to "marketing and packaging" also. It's a cost of all businesses. The payout on a slab must also be lower than a raw coin due to "packaging".
Mystery boxes aren't an investment. It's a fun game for people who like to play those types of games.
I'm not an investor in these mystery boxes but I open up every thread that talks about peoples finds, good and bad. I'm in the camp that favors anything that might trigger interest in coin collecting. I still might try one someday. Keep up the positive comments!
How many overgraded coins does it take to show up on Coinfacts auction results and destroy pricing? 1, 4, 10? Or GC auction results? NGC is a major player, they influence markets.
Your second comment is perceptive. Ironic that the point of many on this thread that this game will promote, trigger interest.
Silence is acquiescence, how can long term collectors/dealers not care about value destruction....baffling.
Value destruction...you cannot control that. Bottom line is a coin is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it at the point of sale. Period.
There are too many variables that control a coin's value decreasing or increasing at any given time.
It's ok to state you don't like VaultBox or any other type of mystery box concept but it is wrong to attack the integrity of a well established and respected TPG by claiming they are grading a coin higher just to sell it in a mystery box.
It takes hundreds of thousands, at least. You are truly making a grand and majestic mountain out of the tiniest of molehills.
That's absurd. How long? How about until the Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the Earth's orbit? What happened to value destruction before third party grading when a SIGNIFICANT percentage of dealers routinely overgraded and overpriced raw coins to sell to the public? Whether out of ignorance or malice, that still happens every day today. No concerns there?
Just to be clear, your opinion is: There are several thousand NGC graded coins being sold in a non-traditional way, and those few thousand coins are all so vastly overgraded that they are going to destroy the value of the rare coin market.
-You haven't looked at any of the coins and have no clue whether any of them is undergraded, properly graded, or overgraded based on NGC's grading criteria.
-A few thousand common coins, even if each of them is overgraded by several points, is nearly completely insignificant in regards to the US coin market.
Silence is acquiescence is a cute catchphrase; I'm sure you think you're saving the coin collecting hobby with these fantastical portents of doom. Here's a more fitting catch phrase for this scenario: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
EDIT: Ahh...@fathom is a doomsayer who overreacts to current events. Never mind any of the above, it likely won't sink in regardless of its truth.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1088975/good-for-us
The pain is real - a Witter Brick reaction. To win, many have to lose:
https://instagram.com/share/BAHUMFw3hl
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Indubitably. Such is the case with any sweepstakes/lottery/etc.
I'll keep throwing my $20 towards the PowerBall, on occasion.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Counter point: The excitement is real! See post above by lermish getting a 99.92 gram gold nugget 🥳🥳🥳
No different than gambling at a casino. 😉
@lermish . Golf is an insidious disease that needs to be eradicated. I have lost 3 friends to this terrible affliction. james
And why are VB coins any more likely to be overgraded than any other coins?
Show me one scintilla of evidence that any value destruction had taken place and I'll flip. But there is no such evidence. A VaultBox MS64 Morgan sells for the same as any NGC MS64 Morgan because IT IS an NGC MS 64 Morgan.
You've assumed that VB coins are overgraded with ZERO evidence and then you are assumimg that this handful of allegedly overgraded coins is somehow moving the whole market.
Given that some VB coins have CACed is evidence that they are NOT overgraded.
I'm not being silent. I'm promoting it as fun FOR SOME PEOPLE. If other people having FUN is ruining your FUN, maybe you are doing it wrong.
One of the biggest market perturbations in history was the creation of registry sets. Please start a thread calling for the end of that (wrong kind of) fun. Silence is acquiescence.
Bingo! Most people lose, a few lucky people come out ahead, and the house always wins.
But Witter Brick and Vault Box don't have complimentary drinks or buffets. 🫤
Maybe they'll host a breakfast at the ANA.
Last time I was in Vegas, I had to lose $1000 to get a free buffet, so the casinos aren't as generous as you think.
I have seen the coins...there are two at the top of the thread. Apparently they must be liberally graded or the numbers don't work.
PCGS and CACG are making what I feel is a constructive effort to tighten grading for the long term benefit of the market. And we cheer these games to bring in potential collectors with MS64 coins that will eventually sell for 62 money or less?
It's been said on here many times with overwhelming consensus, that liberal graded coins hurt values when sold. That is a fact, there is your evidence.
Yes I am self interested for my collection value and the market.
I said my politically incorrect speech, thank you all for the frank and courteous discussion. Lerm, I will allow you to take back your personal assault comments.
Peace.
I was talking coins strictly from the vb and wb games. and i'm not sure that they are being liberally graded on purpose
WRONG. It's really not that complicated. To use round numbers so that you can understand the concept more easily... The sponsors buy $70k of coins. They sell 100 boxes at $1000 each to bring in $100k. Average value of the coin received is $70, although some will be lower and some will be higher. Sponsors keep $30k. Why does anything have to be misgraded for that to work?
I retract none of my earlier statements, whether you perceive them as personal assaults or not.
That was painful to watch. $2000 down the drain. Didn't look like fun to me.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Funny how people spend hours at a coin show looking for special coins from $100-$1000’s of dollars yet they are willing to blindly throw money away for a box of rubbish. They may as well go to any dealer at a show, give him/her $500 and say surprise me a box full of whatever you want to get rid of. Guarantee you that there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
it is painful
"closer to $1000" indicates misguided expectations
RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
True! But they do have a guaranteed buyback program so you make out better than complimentary drinks or buffets!🤣😂
Again, it's not a total loss because the buyer can sell them back to VB.
I didn't watch it so I am assuming the buyer got the lower value coins.
My guess is the buyers of VB are not the customers who spend hours at a coin show.😉
Except he never actually said that.
Maybe he was referring to the numbers on the slab?
NGC would never use a different standard for VB labels rather than regular labels. It's not even their product. Why would they risk their reputation? His comment is simply wild conjecture that defies logic
Not necessarily. I spent 6 hours at my local coin show on Friday. But I have roughly 15 coins on my list, from the $2,500-$50,000 range, all of them scarce, none of them likely to found there. It's a way for me to gamble and have fun with coins when I can't find any of my target coins. When I can't find any of my target coins, I also write articles, work on my website, update my registry set, etc, etc.
Looking at his old posts and his current refusal or inability to even understand what he is criticizing leads me to agree that logic is not a strength.
my whole life improved slightly when I started to ignore a couple folks who were driving me nuts
Absolutely. It's the potentially inflated claimed valuations, expected retail markups, and unregulated, unsupervised distribution of winners that makes these particularly dangerous for the average collector/gambler, and different from straight games of chance involving cash at regulated and supervised gambling enterprises.
That was an problem, at least for me, when these were new, and everyone didn't fully understand all the potential issues. At this point, yeah, all the possible gotchas are out there for all to see, so I don't begrudge anyone their fun, or anyone else their ability to exploit it for profit.
I'm waiting for "Al Capone's Vault Box" sold by Geraldo Rivera.
There must be something good in that one. 🧐
Lose $20k and they'll give you free flights and hotel rooms to come back and try again!
It’s not “unlike gambling”, it is gambling. The fact that participants don’t lose their “entire bet”, doesn’t change that.
Please note, I’m not condemning the activity, just opposed to any attempt to distinguish it from gambling.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Please post what you get. Most of the nuggets are small and fit in a standard or thick holder. But 97 grams! That's over three ounces - not to mention no idea of the shape.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Fools Gold. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Solid contribution as always. A fake quote earlier, and now a random comment. Your insight is appreciated for what it's worth.
@Cameonut I am not a nugget connoisseur but this one seems a little boring. I like the quartz but the shape doesn't do much for me. Either way, it's already been sold.
You remind me of the mother-in-law. Buy $1k worth of lottery scratch offs, "win" $200 and instead of realizing you are down $800 you call yourself up $200. BTW that's one ugly nugget (should of been labeled quartz nugget not gold). How many boxes did you buy to get that? lol THKS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™