@Moldnut said:
PP goods and services is the way to go.
I would happily eat 3% on a free selling platform or just add it into the price.
You need to add 3% Paypal, 20% 1099-K
Yeah, well, if you expect me, as your buyer, to eat your income tax, then we will never be able to do business. The fact that the IRS is finally making it more and more difficult to evade taxes is hardly a customer's problem, in any business.
I have to pay income tax on my income, and it's only fair that everyone else be required to do the same. If you, or anyone else, have been able to get away with not doing that, for whatever reason, good for you and them.
If that party is now over, too bad. If you think that is going to drive retail up by any amount, let alone 20%, when the actual tax due will be on the profit, not the gross, good luck with that. Not gonna happen, when so many legitimate businesses, other than maybe some vest pocket dealers, have been paying taxes all along, and have them built into their prices.
No one expects you to eat my income tax. Tax is cost of doing business and must be added to sale price so from now on I’ll add 23% to my best price for trades with friends and you will be welcome to use regular PayPal.
Congratulations, your coins have a $0 cost basis.
Tax is NOT the cost of doing business. Tax is the cost of generating profits and lawfully declaring said profits to the IRS. You can be really bad at buying coins and lose money, therefore have a net loss and zero tax.
My mom is a CPA. Every time I complain about taxes, she points it’s better to make money and owe them than to not make money and not owe them.
I manage investments for a living. By a huge margin, I get more complaints about a big a tax bill after a good/great year than I do about account values being down after a bad year. @winesteven what is your experience?
@Moldnut said:
PP goods and services is the way to go.
I would happily eat 3% on a free selling platform or just add it into the price.
You need to add 3% Paypal, 20% 1099-K
Yeah, well, if you expect me, as your buyer, to eat your income tax, then we will never be able to do business. The fact that the IRS is finally making it more and more difficult to evade taxes is hardly a customer's problem, in any business.
I have to pay income tax on my income, and it's only fair that everyone else be required to do the same. If you, or anyone else, have been able to get away with not doing that, for whatever reason, good for you and them.
If that party is now over, too bad. If you think that is going to drive retail up by any amount, let alone 20%, when the actual tax due will be on the profit, not the gross, good luck with that. Not gonna happen, when so many legitimate businesses, other than maybe some vest pocket dealers, have been paying taxes all along, and have them built into their prices.
No one expects you to eat my income tax. Tax is cost of doing business and must be added to sale price so from now on I’ll add 23% to my best price for trades with friends and you will be welcome to use regular PayPal.
Congratulations, your coins have a $0 cost basis.
Tax is NOT the cost of doing business. Tax is the cost of generating profits and lawfully declaring said profits to the IRS. You can be really bad at buying coins and lose money, therefore have a net loss and zero tax.
My mom is a CPA. Every time I complain about taxes, she points it’s better to make money and owe them than to not make money and not owe them.
I manage investments for a living. By a huge margin, I get more complaints about a big a tax bill after a good/great year than I do about account values being down after a bad year. @winesteven what is your experience?
The same! When clients complain about the taxes they owe, I tell them that I hope next year they owe even MORE tax, since that means their income is even higher!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I've done likely about 1000 BST transactions over the last 10 years or so. Maybe not 1000, but a whole heckuva lot. Things I can tell you, buying and selling.
If you are in the circle of trust, you are in the circle of trust. If you don't know what that is, maybe you are a bit new(ish).
If you are new, don't expect to do a 10K transaction out of the gate without questions.
If you like/want protection, send a check. Let the seller cash it and ship later/have the seller ship to a third party and then send the check (mind you, I've never had to do this, but I have been asked to be the 3rd party before).
Trust is a huge part of BST. You will get run off if your ethics waver in the slightest.
Every now and again, there is a bad apple. BST polices itself pretty well. Hopefully no one is hurt because...
...the someone who got scammed used something like PP G&S or similar. hopefully.
I like instant funds. I'll take all kinds. I've taken crypto (and a bath ) , and those are my choices. But I also want to be fair to the buyer. IF they want PP G&S and are willing to pay 3%, sounds good to me.
I provide insurance. Period. Self insurance or otherwise. It is up to me to make it right and I will.
I still worry about transactions. so please, let me know when you get my package or my payment. Makes me feel better about what is going on.
I'll do the same for you. communication is key.
PerryHall, JimTyler, Airplanenut, Meltdown, Cucamungacoin, among many other etc are peeps to listen to when it comes to BST.
If you try to scam me or someone else on BST, I'll try my best to make sure you never come back here. Period.
It is a great place to sell, buy, and general be part of the community.
@Moldnut said:
PP goods and services is the way to go.
I would happily eat 3% on a free selling platform or just add it into the price.
You need to add 3% Paypal, 20% 1099-K
Yeah, well, if you expect me, as your buyer, to eat your income tax, then we will never be able to do business. The fact that the IRS is finally making it more and more difficult to evade taxes is hardly a customer's problem, in any business.
I have to pay income tax on my income, and it's only fair that everyone else be required to do the same. If you, or anyone else, have been able to get away with not doing that, for whatever reason, good for you and them.
If that party is now over, too bad. If you think that is going to drive retail up by any amount, let alone 20%, when the actual tax due will be on the profit, not the gross, good luck with that. Not gonna happen, when so many legitimate businesses, other than maybe some vest pocket dealers, have been paying taxes all along, and have them built into their prices.
No one expects you to eat my income tax. Tax is cost of doing business and must be added to sale price so from now on I’ll add 23% to my best price for trades with friends and you will be welcome to use regular PayPal.
Congratulations, your coins have a $0 cost basis.
Tax is NOT the cost of doing business. Tax is the cost of generating profits and lawfully declaring said profits to the IRS. You can be really bad at buying coins and lose money, therefore have a net loss and zero tax.
My mom is a CPA. Every time I complain about taxes, she points it’s better to make money and owe them than to not make money and not owe them.
I manage investments for a living. By a huge margin, I get more complaints about a big a tax bill after a good/great year than I do about account values being down after a bad year. @winesteven what is your experience?
I’d like to offer a service where everyone can benefit. I receive your clients’ gains, which nullifies their tax bill, and in exchange I promise not to complain to you about the new taxes I owe. Let me know when I can start.
@pcgs69 said:
If the seller doesn't accept Paypal Goods & Services, I move on (unless it's a business, or a trusted member). The free payment methods make it easy for the recipient to disappear once payment has been received. With G&S, it's about 3%, but at least both the buyer and seller have some protections.
This ^^^. Protection and trust work both ways. Regardless of how reputable a seller might be, things happen and things change.
Especially with coins, which are a want, not a need, I would not send $1,000 to anyone with no ability to make a third party claim if I was later unhappy. And I would certainly be willing to pay $30 for that peace of mind.
If the seller is unwilling to allow you to do that, that would be a red flag in my mind that it is not about the fees, but rather about your ability to make a claim. And I also would just move on.
I won't disagree, but I will saylike you, as a buyer, when wanting that protection, I've paid the fee. As a seller, not wanting to eat that fee, I will still accept it if the buyer offers to offset and pay the fee
@yspsales said:
How did the Coin World mail order dealers ever survive back in the day?
The coin is obviously not that important if one is haggling over 3%
There are people advising you who refuse to pay $10 for parking.
I would be more concerned about the coin and its true representation from 2D images or video.
If the BST member has no track record... run.
People have been duped before.
Sold a $2K Leica lens to a low Ebay feedback college professor after looking at his FB profile and a google search.
Crosscheck his Ebay account and what is his rating?
Is he known on other forums or Social media platforms?
Google search and FB profile tell alot about a person.
Could you not find a similar coin on Heritage, Ebay, GC and pay up for the protection?
A mail order business expects to get ripped off X% of the time. It's the cost of doing business.
People whining about the 3.5% PP fee aren't thinking like a business. Mail order sellers were paying that our more in CC fees, check guarantees, or theft losses.
Your due diligence was fine, but the FB profile won't help you on a hacked account FWIW.
Checks are a perfectly ok way of doing business; I have no problem taking them with most people I know. To their credit, in this town the cops are quite good with issuing arrest warrants on people who give you a rubber check anywhere in the country; someone on ebay sent me one once for several hundred dollars that bounced and after an arrest warrant was put out sent me good funds. I watched the 2004 film "Mickey" recently where the lawyer is the target of the IRS, rare but it happens. Good Grisham story, where the guy tries to change his name with his son and disappear, didn't work.
Reporting threshold
Notice 2024-85 PDF issued 11/26/2024, provides guidance and clarifies that third party settlement organizations are required to report transactions for goods or services where the total payments received were more than $5,000 in 2024; more than $2,500 in 2025; and more than $600 in calendar year 2026 and thereafter.
There are no changes to what counts as income or how tax is calculated.
The reporting threshold for third party settlement organizations, which include payment apps and online marketplaces, was changed to $600 by the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021.
Although the IRS is taking a phased in approach to implementation of the Form 1099-K reporting threshold companies could still send the form for totals over $600. No matter the amount, if you receive payments for selling goods or services or renting property you must report your income.
The 1099-K only gives the IRS a data point. You are still responsible for accounting for your profit, reporting it, and paying tax on it.
@pcgs69 said:
If the seller doesn't accept Paypal Goods & Services, I move on (unless it's a business, or a trusted member). The free payment methods make it easy for the recipient to disappear once payment has been received. With G&S, it's about 3%, but at least both the buyer and seller have some protections.
This ^^^. Protection and trust work both ways. Regardless of how reputable a seller might be, things happen and things change.
Especially with coins, which are a want, not a need, I would not send $1,000 to anyone with no ability to make a third party claim if I was later unhappy. And I would certainly be willing to pay $30 for that peace of mind.
If the seller is unwilling to allow you to do that, that would be a red flag in my mind that it is not about the fees, but rather about your ability to make a claim. And I also would just move on.
I won't disagree, but I will saylike you, as a buyer, when wanting that protection, I've paid the fee. As a seller, not wanting to eat that fee, I will still accept it if the buyer offers to offset and pay the fee
Right. The point is, with respect to trust going both ways, that some sellers simply do not trust buyers not to mess around with PayPal buyer guarantees.
In those cases, it is not about the fees, or who pays them. It is about sellers not wanting buyers to have access to the protection.
In which case I'd just walk away, no matter how strong the seller's reputation. Because there have been numerous cases in the past of people with impeccable reputations suddenly running into problems.
So trust simply has to run both ways. I trust the seller to ship to coin, and for it to be as described. And they trust me not to risk my reputation, and ability to continue to do business with PayPal, by not playing games with the buyer guarantee. If we can't get there, we cannot do business.
@pcgs69 said:
If the seller doesn't accept Paypal Goods & Services, I move on (unless it's a business, or a trusted member). The free payment methods make it easy for the recipient to disappear once payment has been received. With G&S, it's about 3%, but at least both the buyer and seller have some protections.
This ^^^. Protection and trust work both ways. Regardless of how reputable a seller might be, things happen and things change.
Especially with coins, which are a want, not a need, I would not send $1,000 to anyone with no ability to make a third party claim if I was later unhappy. And I would certainly be willing to pay $30 for that peace of mind.
If the seller is unwilling to allow you to do that, that would be a red flag in my mind that it is not about the fees, but rather about your ability to make a claim. And I also would just move on.
I won't disagree, but I will saylike you, as a buyer, when wanting that protection, I've paid the fee. As a seller, not wanting to eat that fee, I will still accept it if the buyer offers to offset and pay the fee
Right. The point is, with respect to trust going both ways, that some sellers simply do not trust buyers not to mess around with PayPal buyer guarantees.
In those cases, it is not about the fees, or who pays them. It is about sellers not wanting buyers to have access to the protection.
In which case I'd just walk away, no matter how strong the seller's reputation. Because there have been numerous cases in the past of people with impeccable reputations suddenly running into problems.
So trust simply has to run both ways. I trust the seller to ship to coin, and for it to be as described. And they trust me not to risk my reputation, and ability to continue to do business with PayPal, by not playing games with the buyer guarantee. If we can't get there, we cannot do business.
Paypal doesn't offer you the protection most think it does. I'll go further and suggest it's both a liability to the buyer AND the seller. As a seller I usually opt for everything but PP. Many legitimate businesses do the same and PP isn't even on the menu. Have extensive experience in this.
Owner, Lone Mountain Coin
Rare Ingot Collector - Always on the hunt for more!
I will say that more and more legitimate, trustworthy sellers are starting to refuse Pay pal altogether. Their business model is based around “customer is always right”, and when one party always gets their way, the other party sometimes gets screwed.
I treat PayPal like I do credit cards, if it’s someone I know and trust I don’t mind as long as my net is right but I’m not letting an unknown buyer who’s never done business with me use PayPal for a 5 figure coin. Any package that was purchased through eBay, pp, or cc is packed up and weighed on camera before I send it.
@pcgs69 said:
If the seller doesn't accept Paypal Goods & Services, I move on (unless it's a business, or a trusted member). The free payment methods make it easy for the recipient to disappear once payment has been received. With G&S, it's about 3%, but at least both the buyer and seller have some protections.
This ^^^. Protection and trust work both ways. Regardless of how reputable a seller might be, things happen and things change.
Especially with coins, which are a want, not a need, I would not send $1,000 to anyone with no ability to make a third party claim if I was later unhappy. And I would certainly be willing to pay $30 for that peace of mind.
If the seller is unwilling to allow you to do that, that would be a red flag in my mind that it is not about the fees, but rather about your ability to make a claim. And I also would just move on.
I won't disagree, but I will saylike you, as a buyer, when wanting that protection, I've paid the fee. As a seller, not wanting to eat that fee, I will still accept it if the buyer offers to offset and pay the fee
Right. The point is, with respect to trust going both ways, that some sellers simply do not trust buyers not to mess around with PayPal buyer guarantees.
In those cases, it is not about the fees, or who pays them. It is about sellers not wanting buyers to have access to the protection.
In which case I'd just walk away, no matter how strong the seller's reputation. Because there have been numerous cases in the past of people with impeccable reputations suddenly running into problems.
So trust simply has to run both ways. I trust the seller to ship to coin, and for it to be as described. And they trust me not to risk my reputation, and ability to continue to do business with PayPal, by not playing games with the buyer guarantee. If we can't get there, we cannot do business.
Paypal is doesn't offer you the protection most think it does. I'll go further and suggest it's both a liability to the buyer AND the seller. As a seller I usually opt for everything but PP. Many legitimate businesses do the same and PP isn't even on the menu. Have extensive experience in this.
Whatever. I only used PP because it was the subject of the OP. Whatever protection it, or anything else, offers, it's better than nothing.
My point is that I would NEVER send $1K to anyone, even the most trusted seller on the BST, without third party purchase protection -- PP, credit card, whatever. Some sellers have had bad experiences with such third parties bending over to satisfy purchasers, to the detriment of sellers, and refuse to allow purchase methods that include them. Regardless of who pays fees.
That's a reason they love personal checks -- they can hold them as long as they want before shipping, and the buyer has no recourse if they are unhappy after the fact, beyond the goodwill of the seller, or court. That's fine at a show or a shop, where you can see the item before making a decision. Not so much online. YMMV.
@pcgs69 said:
If the seller doesn't accept Paypal Goods & Services, I move on (unless it's a business, or a trusted member). The free payment methods make it easy for the recipient to disappear once payment has been received. With G&S, it's about 3%, but at least both the buyer and seller have some protections.
This ^^^. Protection and trust work both ways. Regardless of how reputable a seller might be, things happen and things change.
Especially with coins, which are a want, not a need, I would not send $1,000 to anyone with no ability to make a third party claim if I was later unhappy. And I would certainly be willing to pay $30 for that peace of mind.
If the seller is unwilling to allow you to do that, that would be a red flag in my mind that it is not about the fees, but rather about your ability to make a claim. And I also would just move on.
I won't disagree, but I will saylike you, as a buyer, when wanting that protection, I've paid the fee. As a seller, not wanting to eat that fee, I will still accept it if the buyer offers to offset and pay the fee
Right. The point is, with respect to trust going both ways, that some sellers simply do not trust buyers not to mess around with PayPal buyer guarantees.
In those cases, it is not about the fees, or who pays them. It is about sellers not wanting buyers to have access to the protection.
In which case I'd just walk away, no matter how strong the seller's reputation. Because there have been numerous cases in the past of people with impeccable reputations suddenly running into problems.
So trust simply has to run both ways. I trust the seller to ship to coin, and for it to be as described. And they trust me not to risk my reputation, and ability to continue to do business with PayPal, by not playing games with the buyer guarantee. If we can't get there, we cannot do business.
Paypal doesn't offer you the protection most think it does. I'll go further and suggest it's both a liability to the buyer AND the seller. As a seller I usually opt for everything but PP. Many legitimate businesses do the same and PP isn't even on the menu. Have extensive experience in this.
PayPal does offer some protection to the seller, but as @PeakRarities points out, their tendency to favor the buyers makes that limited. However, from a buyer standpoint, Paypal is a no- brainer because it gives you 2 bites at the apple. If there's a problem, you can find a PP claim. If PP rejects it, you can still file a CC charge back.
Comments
I manage investments for a living. By a huge margin, I get more complaints about a big a tax bill after a good/great year than I do about account values being down after a bad year. @winesteven what is your experience?
The same! When clients complain about the taxes they owe, I tell them that I hope next year they owe even MORE tax, since that means their income is even higher!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I've done likely about 1000 BST transactions over the last 10 years or so. Maybe not 1000, but a whole heckuva lot. Things I can tell you, buying and selling.
enough babbles from me.
Surf
I know this is a serious discussion, and a good one to have ... but my first thought earlier today when I saw this post was
"in full" is usually best
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I’d like to offer a service where everyone can benefit. I receive your clients’ gains, which nullifies their tax bill, and in exchange I promise not to complain to you about the new taxes I owe. Let me know when I can start.
I won't disagree, but I will saylike you, as a buyer, when wanting that protection, I've paid the fee. As a seller, not wanting to eat that fee, I will still accept it if the buyer offers to offset and pay the fee
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
How did the Coin World mail order dealers ever survive back in the day?
The coin is obviously not that important if one is haggling over 3%
There are people advising you who refuse to pay $10 for parking.
I would be more concerned about the coin and its true representation from 2D images or video.
If the BST member has no track record... run.
People have been duped before.
Sold a $2K Leica lens to a low Ebay feedback college professor after looking at his FB profile and a google search.
Crosscheck his Ebay account and what is his rating?
Is he known on other forums or Social media platforms?
Google search and FB profile tell alot about a person.
Could you not find a similar coin on Heritage, Ebay, GC and pay up for the protection?
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
A mail order business expects to get ripped off X% of the time. It's the cost of doing business.
People whining about the 3.5% PP fee aren't thinking like a business. Mail order sellers were paying that our more in CC fees, check guarantees, or theft losses.
Your due diligence was fine, but the FB profile won't help you on a hacked account FWIW.
Checks are a perfectly ok way of doing business; I have no problem taking them with most people I know. To their credit, in this town the cops are quite good with issuing arrest warrants on people who give you a rubber check anywhere in the country; someone on ebay sent me one once for several hundred dollars that bounced and after an arrest warrant was put out sent me good funds. I watched the 2004 film "Mickey" recently where the lawyer is the target of the IRS, rare but it happens. Good Grisham story, where the guy tries to change his name with his son and disappear, didn't work.
A lot of mis-understanding about 1099-K
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/understanding-your-form-1099-k
The 1099-K only gives the IRS a data point. You are still responsible for accounting for your profit, reporting it, and paying tax on it.
It could be a simple schedule:
Coins sold, total $10,000 (1099-K from PayPal, Inc.)
Costs
* XYZ bought 1/15/2001 $4,000
* DEF bought 12/15/2002 $5,000
* Transaction fees $ 70
* Shipping, Handling, Insurance
$ 200
Total ($9,270)
Profit $730
Now, if the IRS wants to challenge those numbers, well, you do have receipts, right?
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I know you decided not to make that comment, but….
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
If I were to sell on BST I'd have no problem taking PP G&S as long as you're willing to pay the 3%.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Right. The point is, with respect to trust going both ways, that some sellers simply do not trust buyers not to mess around with PayPal buyer guarantees.
In those cases, it is not about the fees, or who pays them. It is about sellers not wanting buyers to have access to the protection.
In which case I'd just walk away, no matter how strong the seller's reputation. Because there have been numerous cases in the past of people with impeccable reputations suddenly running into problems.
So trust simply has to run both ways. I trust the seller to ship to coin, and for it to be as described. And they trust me not to risk my reputation, and ability to continue to do business with PayPal, by not playing games with the buyer guarantee. If we can't get there, we cannot do business.
Paypal doesn't offer you the protection most think it does. I'll go further and suggest it's both a liability to the buyer AND the seller. As a seller I usually opt for everything but PP. Many legitimate businesses do the same and PP isn't even on the menu. Have extensive experience in this.
Owner, Lone Mountain Coin
Rare Ingot Collector - Always on the hunt for more!
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Founder of Pre33Goldbugs - 5500 member group
I will say that more and more legitimate, trustworthy sellers are starting to refuse Pay pal altogether. Their business model is based around “customer is always right”, and when one party always gets their way, the other party sometimes gets screwed.
I treat PayPal like I do credit cards, if it’s someone I know and trust I don’t mind as long as my net is right but I’m not letting an unknown buyer who’s never done business with me use PayPal for a 5 figure coin. Any package that was purchased through eBay, pp, or cc is packed up and weighed on camera before I send it.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Whatever. I only used PP because it was the subject of the OP. Whatever protection it, or anything else, offers, it's better than nothing.
My point is that I would NEVER send $1K to anyone, even the most trusted seller on the BST, without third party purchase protection -- PP, credit card, whatever. Some sellers have had bad experiences with such third parties bending over to satisfy purchasers, to the detriment of sellers, and refuse to allow purchase methods that include them. Regardless of who pays fees.
That's a reason they love personal checks -- they can hold them as long as they want before shipping, and the buyer has no recourse if they are unhappy after the fact, beyond the goodwill of the seller, or court. That's fine at a show or a shop, where you can see the item before making a decision. Not so much online. YMMV.
PayPal does offer some protection to the seller, but as @PeakRarities points out, their tendency to favor the buyers makes that limited. However, from a buyer standpoint, Paypal is a no- brainer because it gives you 2 bites at the apple. If there's a problem, you can find a PP claim. If PP rejects it, you can still file a CC charge back.
If I were trying to cheat the OP, I would gladly eat the 3%.
Still.... There is a reason the often unfairly maligned Ebay tells you not to do business away from their forum.
If it were listed on EBAY there would there be a return window?
What does his record on EBAY look like?
Who in 2025 sells coins and doesn't have an Ebay account?
You are quibbling over 3% so how committed are you to this coin?
I would pass given the known facts.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
A lot of collectors and dealers sell coins without doing so on eBay.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
True, but with this much angst?
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out