Happy with Purchase 1797 50c

gschwernk

I was under bidder on both 1796 50c sold at FUN auction. I had intended adding a VF 1797 to my 50c date set but I am very happy with the following coin I did win at the sale.

jughead1893

Congrats ! Amazing !

coinbuf

Very nice, congrats!

oldabeintx

That’s a VERY nice 15. Well done.

TomB

That's a beast!

johnny9434

Wtg 👍

BillJones

Clearly under graded. It has VF sharpness quite easily. Perhaps the Old Green Label graders thought it was cleaned and net graded it.

I just looked it up. You got an incredible bargain.

RichieURich

Dynamite coin! Congratulations on acquiring it!!!

raycyca

You got a great deal on a great coin! Congratulations!!!

rays

That coin has a lot more eye-appeal than a typical Fine. If it were mine, I would submit it for reconsideration.

pursuitofliberty

Fantastic pickup! That's a LOT of meat for grading F15. And she looks pretty dang nice too! Heck of a acquisition!!

kaz

Wow, beautiful My next thought was "undergraded!"

CaptHenway

Oh, Very Nice!

BillJones

@rays said:
That coin has a lot more eye-appeal than a typical Fine. If it were mine, I would submit it for reconsideration.

It would worth more in the same holder with a CAC gold sticker.

Nic

And less in a current details holder.

LanLord

Eye catching. Very nice coin.

TheGoonies1985

Amazing eye appeal congrats!!!

golden

That looks like a rip. I need a small eagle Half Dollar and would most likely have bid on that one if I did not have so many other bids in the auction.

Walkerfan

Tremendous amount of detail for a Fine 15. It really looks good in that old green holder. Congratulations on snapping it up!

oldabeintx

@BillJones said:

@rays said:
That coin has a lot more eye-appeal than a typical Fine. If it were mine, I would submit it for reconsideration.

It would worth more in the same holder with a CAC gold sticker.

Isn’t it likely that this coin was submitted to CAC?

originalisbest

Very nice example. Were I to own a coin as significant as this, I'd find it fun to hunt through old archives (thank you NNP!) to see if you could discover what sales or price lists it once was featured in. Congrats on a great type piece!

Steven59

I'd be happy too!

VanHalen

You'd have to think that coin is net graded for something? It looks closer to a 30 than to a 15.

4Redisin

@Walkerfan said:
Tremendous amount of detail for a Fine 15. It really looks good in that old green holder. Congratulations on snapping it up!

Foget the detail. Look at all the mint luster. I think it is a VF-25 to 30. I'll bet ANACS would give it the highest grade of all the grading services.

PeakRarities

@4Redisin said:

@Walkerfan said:
Tremendous amount of detail for a Fine 15. It really looks good in that old green holder. Congratulations on snapping it up!

Foget the detail. Look at all the mint luster. I think it is a VF-25 to 30. I'll bet ANACS would give it the highest grade of all the grading services.

While that may be true, the ANACS grade would also bring the lowest price when it comes time to sell.

4Redisin

@PeakRarities said:

@4Redisin said:

@Walkerfan said:
Tremendous amount of detail for a Fine 15. It really looks good in that old green holder. Congratulations on snapping it up!

Foget the detail. Look at all the mint luster. I think it is a VF-25 to 30. I'll bet ANACS would give it the highest grade of all the grading services.

While that may be true, the ANACS grade would also bring the lowest price when it comes time to sell.

I have an idea that the coin would bring a nice price in a slab form the "anybody" grading service. From what I have read so far there are many smart collectors who buy the coin and not the label. Do you think the coin is a VF?

PeakRarities

@4Redisin said:

@PeakRarities said:

@4Redisin said:

@Walkerfan said:
Tremendous amount of detail for a Fine 15. It really looks good in that old green holder. Congratulations on snapping it up!

Foget the detail. Look at all the mint luster. I think it is a VF-25 to 30. I'll bet ANACS would give it the highest grade of all the grading services.

While that may be true, the ANACS grade would also bring the lowest price when it comes time to sell.

I have an idea that the coin would bring a nice price in a slab form the "anybody" grading service. From what I have read so far there are many smart collectors who buy the coin and not the label. Do you think the coin is a VF?

I think it has the meat of a VF, but it was clearly net graded for one reason or another. Being a coin in this value range, you can pretty safely assume it's been to CAC before as well. Without seeing the coin in hand, I'm not comfortable opining on the reason for the net grade.

There are limits to "Buying the coin and not the holder", and a coin like this in a second tier slab like ANACS or ICG would indicate to the vast majority of potential buyers (Including me) that it won't straight grade at one of the three major services. It's the same principle as a coin not having a CAC sticker, that will automatically eliminate a portion of the buyer pool. The larger the buyer pool, the higher the price. I'll spend 6 figures on an NGC coin without a sticker, but I would not spend 5 figures on a coin in a second tier slab coming through HA.

BillJones

@oldabeintx said:

@BillJones said:

@rays said:
That coin has a lot more eye-appeal than a typical Fine. If it were mine, I would submit it for reconsideration.

It would worth more in the same holder with a CAC gold sticker.

Isn’t it likely that this coin was submitted to CAC?

That might be, but one of the unwarranted assumptions that some people make is that CAC has reviewed every significant American coin. It hasn’t.

PeakRarities

@BillJones said:

@oldabeintx said:

@BillJones said:

@rays said:
That coin has a lot more eye-appeal than a typical Fine. If it were mine, I would submit it for reconsideration.

It would worth more in the same holder with a CAC gold sticker.

Isn’t it likely that this coin was submitted to CAC?

That might be, but one of the unwarranted assumptions that some people make is that CAC has reviewed every significant American coin. It hasn’t.

Bill, it’s a $50,000 coin in an old holder that first appears massively undergraded, that was auctioned through Heritage. The assumption that the coin has been to CAC is about as warranted as it could ever be. If it was an estate sale in the boondocks, then I would understand where you’re coming from.

An auction house has a responsibility to their clients to market the coin as best as possible, what are the chances that a consignor would decline that suggestion, considering what’s at stake?

logger7

Cool coin, I didn't realize they were still using the small eagle design after 1795.

jdimmick

Nice coin, very tough , never have owned one

Years ago, I was helping Steve Elwood at a few coin shows nationally. He had a 1797 PCGS XF-45 Half. I loved it, but way out of my price range back then. I told steve it was undergraded by a good margin. I even considered trading all my coins so I could buy it, but about that time Scott Standafer (charlotte) now passed came over to inquire. I told him my opinion, he bought the coin and immediately took over to PCGS, few hours later, I happen to hear them over intercom call him to the PCGS table. He brought it back by the table and showed me regraded Au-53. I knew it, and he said thanks for info. Later on that coin was placed in auction and sold for a huge profit margin. I even think that Don Willis had it in his posession at one time.

4Redisin

@PeakRarities said:

@4Redisin said:

@PeakRarities said:

@4Redisin said:

@Walkerfan said:
Tremendous amount of detail for a Fine 15. It really looks good in that old green holder. Congratulations on snapping it up!

Foget the detail. Look at all the mint luster. I think it is a VF-25 to 30. I'll bet ANACS would give it the highest grade of all the grading services.

While that may be true, the ANACS grade would also bring the lowest price when it comes time to sell.

I have an idea that the coin would bring a nice price in a slab form the "anybody" grading service. From what I have read so far there are many smart collectors who buy the coin and not the label. Do you think the coin is a VF?

I think it has the meat of a VF, but it was clearly net graded for one reason or another. Being a coin in this value range, you can pretty safely assume it's been to CAC before as well. Without seeing the coin in hand, I'm not comfortable opining on the reason for the net grade.

There are limits to "Buying the coin and not the holder", and a coin like this in a second tier slab like ANACS or ICG would indicate to the vast majority of potential buyers (Including me) that it won't straight grade at one of the three major services. It's the same principle as a coin not having a CAC sticker, that will automatically eliminate a portion of the buyer pool. The larger the buyer pool, the higher the price. I'll spend 6 figures on an NGC coin without a sticker, but I would not spend 5 figures on a coin in a second tier slab coming through HA.

I am not arguing. Here is the problem. We are talking about a coin that is not in hand. As I said, in hand there would be plenty of buyers in any slab because they could see if it had a problem. I heard some horror stories about edge problems on straight graded coins in the distant past and that's why we can see the edges now. Something is going on at 7 OC that looks like minor damage.

gschwernk

I am amazed that this post generated so much discussion. The coin looks much better in hand than in photos. I am not sure but maybe it was treated. I have put the full Heritage description for this coin on my website. I will take some better photos when I have time.

You can view at:
https://sc-coins.com/

olah_in_MA

thats 1 of the nicest F15 coins I've seen, nice grab

oldabeintx

Curious, if HA had sent the coin to CAC and it didn’t pass would they be obligated to disclose that to a prospective bidder if asked? Would they be required or should they disclose same in the catalogue? It may be that it hasn’t been submitted if HA recommended not submitting it as “better not to know”. Especially if HA thought it had issues causing a net grade. GC gives consigners the option of whether to submit to CAC or not. When I send coins to them I choose the “use your judgement” option, but I tell them if the coin was submitted by me and didn’t pass. Hopefully, Mark, among others, will respond.

PeakRarities

@gschwernk said:
I am amazed that this post generated so much discussion. The coin looks much better in hand than in photos. I am not sure but maybe it was treated. I have put the full Heritage description for this coin on my website. I will take some better photos when I have time.

You can view at:
https://sc-coins.com/

Don’t take it personally, you should see the thread from the last time I posted one of mine 😅. Being “net graded” is not a condemnation, you have a very sharp, presentable coin in a desirable and marketable green holder. It just means that there might have been some small issue that caused them to knock it back some, but as a result you got a coin that faces up like it much higher grade at a very attractive price. My only points were that-

1. It’s more marketable in its current holder, than a modern anacs holder at VF30.

2. Statistically, there’s a very low chance it hasn’t been to CAC…though I would probably send it anyway just in case.

But who cares if there’s a tiny problem that prevents a sticker, it’s a classic rarity in the top 100, it looks great in that holder, and your opinion is the only one that matters here.

MFeld

@oldabeintx said:
Curious, if HA had sent the coin to CAC and it didn’t pass would they be obligated to disclose that to a prospective bidder if asked? Would they be required or should they disclose same in the catalogue? It may be that it hasn’t been submitted if HA recommended not submitting it as “better not to know”. Especially if HA thought it had issues causing a net grade. GC gives consigners the option of whether to submit to CAC or not. When I send coins to them I choose the “use your judgement” option, but I tell them if the coin was submitted by me and didn’t pass. Hopefully, Mark, among others, will respond.

If prospective bidders ask whether a lot has been submitted to CAC, I let them know. If Heritage hasn’t submitted the coin, my standard answer is something to the effect of “Our records indicate that we didn’t submit it but we have no way of knowing whether it was submitted before it was consigned to us,” A nunber of forum members have received such replies from me.

Some consignors ask us to submit coins to CAC or for crossover. Others ask us to review the coins and make recommendations. And sometimes we make recommendations, even if not asked.

oldabeintx

Thanks Mark.

Copperindian

You got a great coin. Period. CONGRATS!

CaptHenway

I am baffled by the numerical grade. Subject of course to the caveat that I have not seen the piece, based upon these excellent pictures I feel confident in saying that back when I was at ANACS the absolute bare minimum we would have called it would have been "VF-20, Cleaned," or whatever other possible problem that might have caused it to be net graded. I rather think that we would have called it "VF-30, Cleaned (or whatever)." Even if it were plugged (which I see absolutely no indication of) I would have called it no less than "VF-20, Plugged."

Just spitballing here, but is there any chance that the "15" grade given is an old mechanical error that the original submitter did not know to challenge, and that the consignor for whatever reason insisted that it be catalogued as it was?

All that said I still love the piece, and would be pleased and proud to own it.

Walkerfan

Though it may not sticker; I'd still send it in for a regrade.

VanHalen

Here's a recent sale at SB of a PCGS/CAC VF30 in a rattler. $96k stacksbowers.com/1797-draped-bust-half-dollar-small-eagle-vf-30-pcgs-cac-ogh-rattler

Makes me think the OPs coin was netted 15 points for an old cleaning that warranted a 5 point net to 25.

PeakRarities

@CaptHenway said:
I am baffled by the numerical grade. Subject of course to the caveat that I have not seen the piece, based upon these excellent pictures I feel confident in saying that back when I was at ANACS the absolute bare minimum we would have called it would have been "VF-20, Cleaned," or whatever other possible problem that might have caused it to be net graded. I rather think that we would have called it "VF-30, Cleaned (or whatever)." Even if it were plugged (which I see absolutely no indication of) I would have called it no less than "VF-20, Plugged."

Just spitballing here, but is there any chance that the "15" grade given is an old mechanical error that the original submitter did not know to challenge, and that the consignor for whatever reason insisted that it be catalogued as it was?

All that said I still love the piece, and would be pleased and proud to own it.

It sounds to me like you guys ANACS was just the first to implement "details" grading, even though it wasn't yet named as such. If you were assigning the number based on the wear of the details, and subsequently denoting the issue, that wouldn't be net grading. On the other hand, "Net" grading is rather an attempt to assign a value to the coin based on the issue, or what one might net from the sale of said coin after the "subtractions" from the issue/s. At least that's my interpretation from what I've encountered.

From what I've seen, the common practice with PCGS net grades from this era, is that the coin is dropped a "whole grade level", but by old school alphabetical standards. So for instance, a cleaned AU will be net graded to XF. XF's are dropped to VF, so on and so forth. Since VF has such a wide range from 20-35, there is the potential for situations like this where "one grade level" could be a 15-20 point drop, which is likely why this coin looks silly in a 15 holder.

Here's my close date Moffatt $10, and it appears to me that the piece was net graded in a similar fashion. These we're lousy struck coins to begin with, but without taking the light scratches on the obv at 12:00 and probably an old cleaning, I think I would grade this coin VF-25 by modern standards, but definitely no less than VF-20. I'll also show a two VF-30s graded by PCGS from the SSCA.

Ironically, this coin did receive a CAC sticker despite the mentioned issues, and in fact, it's the only CAC stickered example currently listed in the pop reports. That's why I did suggest that OP's coin be sent to CAC if it hasn't already, but considering the value I have a hard time believing a consignor would have been so obtuse in their refusal to at least try.

lonemountaincoin

@gschwernk said:
I was under bidder on both 1796 50c sold at FUN auction. I had intended adding a VF 1797 to my 50c date set but I am very happy with the following coin I did win at the sale.

Could we see a video? Looks like old cleaning to me.

skier07

@lonemountaincoin said:

@gschwernk said:
I was under bidder on both 1796 50c sold at FUN auction. I had intended adding a VF 1797 to my 50c date set but I am very happy with the following coin I did win at the sale.

Could we see a video? Looks like old cleaning to me.

+1

A 230 year old circulated half dollar should be quite a big darker.

metalmeister

VERY Good for the grade. Excellent!

Crypto

I agree with everything @PeakRarities has said but would like to add some points for the conversation
1- net grading was common for classics with strong merit during that period at PCGS.

2- his coin seems more like strike confusion more than a problem net

3- while clearly over dipped at some point, I personally haven’t seen many coins netted for dipping let alone one with such a spread with the meat details . Not sure if that speaks to an unseen problem or if the significance of the date turned into reluctance on the bench to get it though

4-that’s one of the main things that sunk ANACS and to a lesser extent NGC reputation in the 90s was putting over dipped circulated coins in normal holders

5- I like it more in its holder than any modern combo and would be a wonderful coin to request feedback from JA about although it is doubtful an overdipped top 100 would ever get a sticker. Not a good look for the brand.

6- it’s a moose of a coin, fixating on the grade is a pricing exercise but the coin it’s self is lovely and dream level material. It is what it is and it is a gem in its own right

CaptHenway

@PeakRarities said:

@CaptHenway said:
I am baffled by the numerical grade. Subject of course to the caveat that I have not seen the piece, based upon these excellent pictures I feel confident in saying that back when I was at ANACS the absolute bare minimum we would have called it would have been "VF-20, Cleaned," or whatever other possible problem that might have caused it to be net graded. I rather think that we would have called it "VF-30, Cleaned (or whatever)." Even if it were plugged (which I see absolutely no indication of) I would have called it no less than "VF-20, Plugged."

Just spitballing here, but is there any chance that the "15" grade given is an old mechanical error that the original submitter did not know to challenge, and that the consignor for whatever reason insisted that it be catalogued as it was?

All that said I still love the piece, and would be pleased and proud to own it.

It sounds to me like you guys ANACS was just the first to implement "details" grading, even though it wasn't yet named as such. If you were assigning the number based on the wear of the details, and subsequently denoting the issue, that wouldn't be net grading. On the other hand, "Net" grading is rather an attempt to assign a value to the coin based on the issue, or what one might net from the sale of said coin after the "subtractions" from the issue/s. At least that's my interpretation from what I've encountered.

From what I've seen, the common practice with PCGS net grades from this era, is that the coin is dropped a "whole grade level", but by old school alphabetical standards. So for instance, a cleaned AU will be net graded to XF. XF's are dropped to VF, so on and so forth. Since VF has such a wide range from 20-35, there is the potential for situations like this where "one grade level" could be a 15-20 point drop, which is likely why this coin looks silly in a 15 holder.

Our goal was correct technical grading with adjectives added as necessary to describe problems. The problems would often cause us to use the lowest number for the technical grade, but not lower the technical grade in an attempt to price the coin. We never priced coins; that was for the market to do. Thus a hypothetical coin could be "MS-60, holed" if that was both accurate and descriptive. Price it whatever the market will bear.

Tramp

Congrats on the beautiful coin.

Nothing but upside at your winning bid. Not that my opinion matters, but I wouldn't hesitate one bit in sending to PCGS for reconsideration and then depending on that outcome sending for CAC sticker consideration. Even after all that, you'd still be way ahead of the game at the price you paid; then taking into consideration the what if it did actually grade a VF25 or 30.

If you do send it in, hope you let us know whatever the outcome is.

What fun and anticipation!

lkenefic

Wow! Congrats! F15?? As others have already said... seems a bit under graded. There's a lot of meat on the obverse and the reverse just seems to be flatley struck.... gorgeous piece!

Baley

Awesome, really Awesome coin, would be right at home in my (or almost any other collectors' ) intermediate-to- advanced US type set.

Love ❤️ it , dream of it, and would treasure it as a VF25ish detail, light old cleaning, net Fine 15

Looks great in that holder