Why would you buy a coin that did not CAC?
johnny010
Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭✭✭
As I’ve built my Morgan set a few coins did not CAC. No matter how hard I’ve tried to justify the coins “should have stickered”, each time I’ve paid more attention and re-louped / learned and realized “I was wrong”.
Now I fully understand buying a coin two hundred plus years ago due to limited availability but most coins if you’re honest with yourself….. have been cleaned and retoned, aren’t suited for their grades etc
I’m sure there are good reasons and I dont expect all positive replies but how many of you have come to the same realization that a non-CAC coin is worth less and is an inferior coin for the grade award.
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78 posts in, realized I should have clarified and am now adding:
My initial post should here should have defined non-CAC (to me) as a coin that was sent and failed vs a coin that has never been sent.
Comments
Once upon a time a certain person who shall remain unnamed realized that if he could get his whisky approved and recognized by the king, everyone would want and need it. It would have a royal seal on the bottle label. That would make other spirts less desirable and that's just what he did and it happened. It's a BIG GAME and you are playing right along. The king and the products that get his seal are the winners.
Now, it does not matter what is in the bottle and how much more it gets watered down over the years. Today's MS were AU's in the past and don't even think about the grading being tolerated for moderns from what I see at shows while trying to buy '70's.
Learn to grade to your personal tight standards and buy the coin mot the label. I've never lost money when selling truly beautiful MS coins (held for a few years) that I had to pay above market for because there is no Santa Claus.
PS None of my nongold coins are rare, cost over $1500, and have a bean; yet dealers badger me to buy them. I have never bought a CAC graded coin but I would if it was the "right" coin.
For a decade JA's were the only eyes that mattered. In a world of a few thousand neurosurgeons, only one guy could determine a grade. That was illogical to think that PCGS and NGC were substandard decision makers. Now I believe, you have an ex NGC fellow running the operation.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
peacockcoins
Why would I buy a non-CAC coin? I buy plenty of them! They’re all “modern”, ineligible for a sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Isn’t it obvious? The coin hasn’t been to cac before
A nice coin is a nice coin and a nice price is a nice price. I have a few coins with beans and they are nice. I have lots of coins without beans and some of them are nice. Much of my collection was bought before CAC was around and I presume they won’t ever go as long as I hold them.
Some day someone will buy them and the nice ones will still be nice.
“Why would I buy a non-CAC coin?”
I don’t want to pay too much for history. It’s just a hobby.
I’ll turn the question around. Why should you allow one man’s opinion determine which coins get into your collection?
I bought many coins before CAC came along. It’s not worth my time, expense and risk of loosing those coins in transit to have them anointed until it’s time to sell, if then. I have bought CAC coins when I liked the piece and I thought the price was fair. And I have a picture file full of CAC approved coins that didn’t make the grade in my opinion. And I had a couple CAC approved coins which I now view as mistakes.
I don’t need to have my hand held every time I buy a coin. I also can’t have it held when I buy tokens, medals, British coins and Roman coins. CAC’s undue influence in the U.S. coin market prompted me to branch out to the British and Roman areas, and I’m a better collector for it.
I support CAC’s entry into the full service certification industry. It’s good for collectors to have more competition. As for the stickers, that’s a mixed bag.
Unfortunately, most dealers charge a lot more for their CACed coins. Many of these CACed coins are nothing special and many are actually unattractive. I'd rather spend my money on attractive and properly graded coins in major grading service slabs without the sticker and the associated higher price.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't know what it is about CAC that makes so many feel they have to tell everyone else that it is necessary. It's the same discussion and same argument that flowed freely 25-30 years ago about having raw coins encapsulated. My sense of the whole thing now is the same as it was then, collectors who maybe didn't grow up with the Hobby and learn slowly about grading and other nuances need the assistance that a third party offers for a fee.
It is good that option is available. It is good that many simply choose not to use it because they feel they don't need it.
It would be good if members such as the OP could understand and accept that concept.
I'll reserve judgment until I see how I do selling at an upcoming auction. Two of four coins I sent in hopes of a green bean 2 years ago didn't get it... and they are two coins that, IMO, should have. One is a PF 65 3 cent silver with gorgeous toning. One that did get it (half dime MS 65) has ugly toning and very little eye appeal. Go figure. If that coin gets a $$ bump from having the sticker, I'll sing CAC's praises.
"Brother, can you spare a dime?" (Especially a 1975 no S proof?)
As a collector, I’d buy a non-CAC coin for the same reason I’d buy a CAC coin - because I like it and it and I’m willing to pay the price it takes to get it.
As a dealer, I’d buy a non-CAC coin for the same reason I’d buy a CAC coin - because it’s priced at a level where I think I could resell it for a profit. One additional consideration applies here, however. Typically, I won’t buy a coin if it’s straight graded and it has an issue which I think should have resulted in a detail grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm sure glad I don't play this game, where a sticker determines whether or not I like a coin.
In regard to an unbeanable coin, I have to wonder if the coin were slabbed at one grade point lower but did have a bean, would some people then think it was worthy and desirable? 🤔
Because I like it. Period. Why do I need any other reason?
As for price, CAC coins carry a premium when you both buy and sell them. Everyone knows that. We also know why. That doesn't, however, make other coins unworthy.
A coin that fails to sticker at 66, can green sticker at 65 and gold sticker at 64. Let's say. you had a gold sticker 64 and sent it in for reconsideration. It got a 66 and then failed to CAC. Would you then dump the coin in a fire sale because it was now an unworthy coin?
There's a bit of flawed distinction here. It's not either/or. An attractive CAC coin will sell for more than an unattractive one. And an attractive non-CAC coin will often sell for as much as the CAC coin. People do look at the coins they buy.
CAC stickers are not for attractiveness. They are for the appropriateness of the grade. Eye appeal is only part of the grade.
People make the same error with "+" coins. A 64+ need not be attractive. It just needs to be a 64+.
@johnny010 , why not choose a topic which typically excites everyone on the Board.😉😂
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My thoughts on a sticker is I usually want one. I’m always looking at nice non- CAC coins, trying to figure out why they didn’t sticker. Either they’re over graded, or far worse, a hidden surface issue. I also think if I buy a non stickered coin, all potential buyers will be wondering ‘what’s wrong’ come sale time, as well.
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Here’s one I bought a little while back with no sticker. She’s a rattler MS63 and I absolutely can’t see any reason she wouldn’t sticker. Good for the grade, etc.
I gave three for her, mostly as a bullion coin, and while a little expensive at the time, she’s now pretty reasonable either way.😉
I think she’s never been tried. Anyone see a problem she wouldn’t sticker?
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@HillbillyCollector I have liked that one since the day you showed her to me. I would not mind having that non-CAC coin in my collection
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
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Thanks Brother!
She really is nice and fits right in with my others. I’m going to send her to JA and just see what will happen. If nothing else, maybe he’ll tell me why not.👍
Time for some coffee.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
As a collector, I buy mostly PCGS coins.
I look for attractive, well-struck coins with good lustre.
IMHO,
It’s a separate opinion of perceived originality and strict technical grade.
If I’m truly ‘in love’ with a prospective purchase that is CAC, I’ll pay the CAC price for it.
If I like a non-CAC coin, I’ll save substantial money.
Either way, i’m happy.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Make sure you include with your submission a note indicating “If by some chance it does not sticker, please explain why”. You should then get an answer if it does fail.
With gold coins, my understanding why many of them fail to sticker is due to a “surface treatment” that in the opinion of CAC they feel is unacceptable, but apparently is acceptable to the other TPG’s.
This brings up another point. As noted by someone in an earlier reply above, the typical reasons a coin does not sticker is either in the opinion of CAC it is not “solid for grade” (or is possibly overgraded), or has had a surface treatment that I just mentioned. I would think that some of the collectors replying above would be even more comfortable buying a non stickered coin if they actually knew WHY it did not sticker, and they are then still comfortable buying that coin. In my opinion, that’s perfectly fine!
As my friend Dan has said, “Please hold your tomatoes”.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Becuase I like the coin plain and simple
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Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I collect certain state colonials, so yes, I will buy non-CACd coins.
Sticker or no sticker, I only buy coins that meet my own criteria and which are pleasing to my eye, and I do trust my “eye” to an extent.
However, I see nothing wrong with second opinions. If I were to buy a used car, I’d check it against CARFAX, and I would check sites like Edmunds because I realize there are limitations to my expertise, and when spending significant sums of money I value opinions of those whose expertise exceeds my own.
And to add, I believe the market for stickered coins is more liquid, and that matters to me as I know at some point I’ll liquidate my collection. I frequently see nice non-stickered coins languish in dealer inventory, while CACd coins sell quickly - that just seems like market reality to me, like it or not.
There’s value to me in all of this… and yes, i’ll pay a bit more for it - but in no way is a sticker the only or primary factor in my purchase decision.
Coffee time!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
As usual, I think you are vastly overestimating the number of people who collect or devote serious time to Jefferson nickels.
For example, ask a Morgan collector how they feel about poorly struck O mint coins being graded at CACG; I am confident CACG is a lot tighter than PCGS/NGC.
The rest of your post is even more unworthy of conversation and is ridiculous. I'll defer to @MFeld so as to not start ranting myself.
And a donut!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
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Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
@johnny010 I foresee many pages of drama on this thread
The primary reason to buy a non-CAC coin is because I like the coin. For coins where my opinion and CAC's tend to overlap significantly, there are two other reasons.
Cost - If I am buying old gold, I may have a choice where I can afford to buy an otherwise attractive AU coin with some issue I can live with or a less technically nice but problem free coin in VF. That's a big gap in detail and technical quality. I've chosen both options in different cases depending on the coins, but it's often not an easy choice.
Scarcity - In my series, and particularly with varieties, the coins simply may not exist with a bean. I own something like 10% of the stickered population of my series (although the overall submission rate is probably lower than with others series). For a few key dates, I have the only CAC coin currently in existence. So I often have a choice between a problem (and in some cases ugly) coin or an empty hole. I'd rather fill the hole and upgrade if ever possible.
In my opinion, once you get passed MS-64, the quality of the strike becomes an important issue. There is no such thing as a poorly struck MS-67.
For many coins, CAC premiums (or P/N discounts) are now at a level where good values can be had on carefully selected coins that are not quite good enough to CAC. But if you’re not an expert grader, it’s far safer and probably smarter to stick with the beans.
Edited to add an example: CDN bid on an MS 64 $5 Indian is 1350, and 2350 with the bean. $1350 makes sense when you consider what the typical 64 looks like these days, but $1500-1800 seems like very solid value for a nice unbeanable 64.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Totally agreed on that last point! I realize and I’m OK with not thinking of myself as an “expert grader”.
Well, I guess I better go back and delete my posts if others are seeing slanderous statements.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Perhaps just an edit, leaving your points, but without the portions identified as problematic?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
More of the same nothing.
CAC came along during the time I was out of coin collecting. 3 years ago sold 90% of what I had. Most raw coins graded higher than I expected and later found myself cracking previously graded coins where the next grade justified the grading cost. More than 50% upgraded and a few CAC’d through the auction houses.
Honestly I did not feel some higher grades were justified. With that said I can see the justification for CAC stickered coins. Ironically I bought most coins raw and 30 years ago felt slabbed coins added on costs that I did not want to pay. Would imagine as a buyer today would feel the same way today regarding CAC premiums.
So, if I buy a coin in a coin in a PCGS slab without a bean sticker, I'm being less safe and not as smart? Really?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It is definitely less safe. It is also "less smart" if you're "not an expert grader" because it is less safe. When is the less safe road the smarter road?
I buy a lot of raw coins. That is even less safe for a novice and, therefore, less smart. My dangerous and silly behavior is somewhat mitigated by the fact that I'm not a novice. But even for me, it is safer to buy slabbed and even safer to buy CAC.
Earlier this year I submitted my coins to CAC and only got a 40% approval rate. I was definitely disappointed but ultimately realized that the toning on most of the non-approved coins is beautiful (to my eyes) and will be difficult to find similar coins that are CAC approved. If I come across the specific dates I need with similar toning, that are CAC'd, and for a reasonable price then yes, I would buy them and sell my non-CAC coins. However, given how picky I am and how long I've been looking (nearly 20 years), it's likely these will remain in my collection for a long time.
@johnny010 See this thread for some other perspectives:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1108277/let-s-see-some-favorite-non-cac-d-coins/p1
Edit to add: there are a lot of great coins that failed to sticker. As such, a collector can miss out on these by exclusively rejecting them. I say that as a fan of most CAC stickered coins.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I meant exactly what I said, not what you said. Really.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
CAC is yet another clue as to quality. Often the clue isn’t there.
No one is perfect and I'll have to admit that every professional grader who taught classes was pretty darn good; yet some were much better than others. Besides, it is not the grader - it is the company they work for - the line. (BTW IMO, for modern dated common coins that line has become broken beyond repair.)
Several years ago in a grading discussion over on CT Forum one insider wrote that his personal standards were much different than the TPGS he worked for. He said to get a correct grade or guess the grade of an NGC or PCGS slab correctly he often had to raise his personal grade one point. One of my instructors explained it this way in private at the "Moonlight Lounge" when I questioned some of his grading in class.
He told me I was correct on many of the coins I questioned but no one grades that way! Graders need to play the game of the coin market: "Yes, this coin is not "technically" such and such but..."
I admire a person like that. He can state the 100% true grade based on what is there on a coin to a student yet nudge them over to its ACTUAL MARKET GRADE that is correct! Complicated? Yes, but that's exactly what I try to do at my coin club when asked for an opinion. We don't want to leave money on the table.
The best advice I can give anyone is to be a very strict grader. Learn to grade for yourself and then buy the "A" coins and not the "B" or "C" ones. You'll never have a problem selling a coin. It is easy advice to give but extremely hard to follow as everyone is looking for the same thing (the cream) and they don't come cheap. That's why after the authentication services added grading services, CAC was eventually needed - to protect ignorant collectors. An now , it seems grading has become more important than authentication.
@HillbillyCollector: that’s a beautiful coin & doesn't need ANY sticker!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Do uncirculated coins really need to be split into 31 grades? That is assuming that 70 carries no A,B or C.
“Why would you buy a non-CAC coin?”
1 - Not all CAC rejects are problem coins despite the way some on the forums portray them. Similarly, not all CAC coins are ultra PQ either (e.g. scratches including staple scratches are sometimes given a pass). A sticker can indicate a B grade coin which can be rather pedestrian. Many focus on the coin and not the dressing which can be changed.
2 - If I really like the coin, I’ll buy it if the price is right and commensurate with its quality. I having knowingly purchased an overgraded coin because the price was right and the coin had an unusual characteristic and amazing eye appeal that was uncommon. I went through a toner phase (back when prices were more reasonable and before the slew of questionable material started making it through). I bought a coin that was color bumped by 2 points (read as egregiously overgraded). I sent it to CAC where it predictably failed (there was no charge for coins that didn’t sticker submitted by collectors back then). JA cited the grade not color. There was no question as to its originality. I bought it because I liked it and sold it for a large profit.
3 - I have purchased coins from major auction houses, including the true leppers of the hobby - those CACless NGC wonders - and submitted them to CAC where the coins subsequently stickered.
4 - Some major dealers, including some vocal CAC only ones, will play the reverse crack out game. I’ve lost count at the number of NGC coins I’ve seen downgraded to PCGS at the interval below it with a plus designation and a green bean and sold for a decent profit. Clearly not all CACless coins are garbage. (This is not to say that every failed coin will sticker at the grade below, but there are enough not to throw out the baby with the bath water).
5- It depends on how rare the issue is you’re looking for and whether a CAC example exists or will appear in the near future. Think of some early federal varieties. I wonder if collectors would thumb their noses at the sticker less 1913 V nickels or 1804 dollars.
Bottom line: I would not automatically ignore a coin because of a lack of a sticker just as I would not avoid a coin for having a sticker. The sticker has its role and marketing advantage, but it does not outweigh the importance of the coin itself.
And before I am falsely accused, I’m not a CAC hater either and have been a collector member for approximately 15 years.
@BillJones: your first post today absolutely nailed it! I couldn’t agree more. Btw, I’ve maintained a similar “how? why?” CAC file.
I have to like what I buy first & foremost. I don’t typically look for a CAC sticker. If the coin I like happens to have one, that’s fine. It’s more important to me to also know what I’m buying as well as liking it. A sticker won’t do that for me.
Many here know I collect IHC’s & FE’s. JMO, CAC does not do the best job with the IHC’s. I’ve seen a number of beaned ones that I wouldn’t even consider. For those, the EEPS is much more meaningful.
I think they do a decent job with the FE’s; still, I place more value with the EEPS as well with these.
Finally, I think some collectors today rely on CAC for extra assurance. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just not something I feel I need. The monetary aspect is a secondary issue at this point in time. Will I regret it someday? Maybe.
@johnny010: look at what you’ve started! Predicting this thread will have a massive response!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian