@cameonut2011 said:
Let me ask a follow up question: Would you buy a coin with a sticker on it that was not solid for the grade or designation and/or had staple scratches just because it stickered?
NO!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Thanks for taking the time to share the dates. I asked mainly because as a general rule, the reverse never will carry the grade. Your images look good. Peace Dollar reverses usually hinder grades especially in the 64 and higher range.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@seatedlib3991 said: @Barberian . At least when it comes to the Seated half dollar I completely agree about the EF-45 grade. In the past I focused more on dates than grades. Over the years I have really come to appreciate the EF-45 grade. Below this grade you don't get to fully appreciate the beauty of the original Sully design. You also find coins with some residual, original luster left. finally, I of course like higher grade coins too, but i think the 45 grade offers the most bang for your buck. James
EF45 really sharpens up the design of Seated halves, particularly on the reverse. With a fringe of luster, it's really nice.
My collection averages around VF30-35. I have a lot of VF30s VF35s, and EF40s, but the "big dogs" are lower grades with a few exceptions. If I liked a mid-grade coin, the decision didn't come down to what grade it was. There are a few coins where I said, "What the hell", and I'd grab an AU58. Those have done well. I want to get more EF45s though after seeing the "North woods" collection and others' additions the past few years.
But I try to avoid coins that have the black crud and associated etching and corrosion. I've dealt with my fair share of it buying raw coins off eBay. That's why it surprises me when it is awarded a green bean.
What the hell. $417 in 2008. It crossed from NGC AU58 to PCGS AU55 recently. It hasn't been submitted to CAC.
I almost forgot this one. It needs to be photographed.
PCGS XF45+ (CAC) - a bit crusty showing nice originality, the crust looks OK, IMO.
@cameonut2011 said:
Let me ask a follow up question: Would you buy a coin with a sticker on it that was not solid for the grade or designation and/or had staple scratches just because it stickered?
If the coin damage was missed and a sticker was accidentally applied, I would not be interested in the coin.
@cameonut2011 said:
Let me ask a follow up question: Would you buy a coin with a sticker on it that was not solid for the grade or designation and/or had staple scratches just because it stickered?
I bought an AU50 1860-O with light spotting over the coin that revealed some old light wiping, but the coin was undergraded, had retoned nicely, and was CAC stickered. It sold for a low price for a CAC coin.
I did the latter, and it was a painful lesson for me. I got sucked into runaway bidding for an 1852 above my grade-range that I also noticed had some scratches on the reverse. I didn't intend on bidding for it because of the high grade and scratches. When it started to close at a low price, I lost my discipline. I went against my gut and with CAC to buy it, and that was a mistake. The mistake was mine for not setting a reasonable limit and sticking with my original assessment of the coin, not CAC's. The end was a wallet against wallet, goal line stand. Or Lucy pulling the football on me, I don't know which. Like a meathead, I WON! And lost. Oh well, at least I had a CAC AU 58 with a scratched reverse and lightly corroded rims. Notice the toning turning to black corrosion along the obverse rim.
@ARCO said:
P.S. I just bought a raw 1912-S XF45 Barber Half on Ebay. I paid half of what holdered/cac coins are selling for. I pick up the coin every five minutes and admire it. What a damn good feeling. Just how it felt when I first starting collecting.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
@Ebeneezer said:
Because it fits my eye appeal. Sorry, not a chance of my paying such a foolish premium simply for another's opinion.
Yep and price is right. If there is a CAC VF20 that is the same price as an NGC NGC35 that failed CAC, and it I like it, but realize it is on the lower end of the grade, and maybe not even a VF30 CAC, I would buy it over the CAC coin. There are no absolutes for me, buy the best that I like at the price I can afford, even if raw.
@Ebeneezer said:
Because it fits my eye appeal. Sorry, not a chance of my paying such a foolish premium simply for another's opinion.
The premium isn’t typically “simply for another’s opinion”.
Agree. You also get a really cool sticker with a really neat colorful holographic design on it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
@ARCO said:
P.S. I just bought a raw 1912-S XF45 Barber Half on Ebay. I paid half of what holdered/cac coins are selling for. I pick up the coin every five minutes and admire it. What a damn good feeling. Just how it felt when I first starting collecting.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
@Ebeneezer said:
Because it fits my eye appeal. Sorry, not a chance of my paying such a foolish premium simply for another's opinion.
You’re paying for a “solid coin for the assigned grade” that is validated by the best in the business for a small price.
The price to get the sticker is small, the price to buy it retail is not small. The premiums for CAC are more than you will get when reselling.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Yes, your very recent real life example was very painful, but that is not necessarily representative of what typically happens.
Sorry for your loss.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Ebeneezer said:
Because it fits my eye appeal. Sorry, not a chance of my paying such a foolish premium simply for another's opinion.
The premium isn’t typically “simply for another’s opinion”.
Agree. You also get a really cool sticker with a really neat colorful holographic design on it.
Relevance?
He's joking.
Actually, I was being facetious.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
The details gtade is absolutely "changed". An "XF details" coin is ABSOLUTELY NOT an "XF" coin at all and can NOT ever be a "solid XF" coin. Details grades are essentially a completely separate grading scale.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
@ARCO said:
P.S. I just bought a raw 1912-S XF45 Barber Half on Ebay. I paid half of what holdered/cac coins are selling for. I pick up the coin every five minutes and admire it. What a damn good feeling. Just how it felt when I first starting collecting.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I feel like shit for wasting my money.
I'm really not sure what this proves other than it wasn't a good day to sell that coin on GC. Auction results can be volatile a you need two people to set the price.
I am late to this thread but in the area that I am collecting - Capped Bust dimes by variety, there are many very nice looking coins that are not CAC'd. If you wait for one that is CAC'd then you might not find a CAC'd coin or find one in a grade range not matching the rest of the set. For CAC'd graded coins, I tend to pay more for those coins as market conditions suggest and for non CAC'd coins, I tend to pay less compared to CAC'd coins, again as market conditions suggest as well. My conclusion is if you like the coin and it fits into your collection, then buy it as long as the price is reasonable and you can afford it. Generally, I will pay more for CAC'd coins compared to non CAC'd coins as they are higher in the eye appeal (better looking) than non CAC coins. But I know that when I buy any coin.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
It sounds like either you don’t understand the point being made or some of us don’t understand yours.
I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example: I have an AU coin with just a hint of rub/friction, a strong strike, excellent luster and surfaces that are mark-free, but for distinct graffiti, where someone carved their name.
The coin is/should be graded “AU Detail, Graffiti”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful it would be without the graffiti. Because the graffiti is present, the coin isn’t solid for the grade. It’s a damaged, detail grade coin that therefore, can’t be solid for any grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ARCO said:
P.S. I just bought a raw 1912-S XF45 Barber Half on Ebay. I paid half of what holdered/cac coins are selling for. I pick up the coin every five minutes and admire it. What a damn good feeling. Just how it felt when I first starting collecting.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I feel like shit for wasting my money.
I'm really not sure what this proves other than it wasn't a good day to sell that coin on GC. Auction results can be volatile a you need two people to set the price.
For myself, it proves that I pay a premium for CAC when I buy a coin at retail, Which does not return the same premium when I sell.
I like CAC, I just think that the premiums for coins with CAC are higher than the value their opinion brings.
@ARCO said:
P.S. I just bought a raw 1912-S XF45 Barber Half on Ebay. I paid half of what holdered/cac coins are selling for. I pick up the coin every five minutes and admire it. What a damn good feeling. Just how it felt when I first starting collecting.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I feel like shit for wasting my money.
I'm really not sure what this proves other than it wasn't a good day to sell that coin on GC. Auction results can be volatile a you need two people to set the price.
For myself, it proves that I pay a premium for CAC when I buy a coin at retail, Which does not return the same premium when I sell.
I like CAC, I just think that the premiums for coins with CAC are higher than the value their opinion brings.
I don't think it remotely proves that. You can find numerous examples of CAC coins sold at auction that set record prices. Any single result demonstrates nothing.
@ARCO said:
P.S. I just bought a raw 1912-S XF45 Barber Half on Ebay. I paid half of what holdered/cac coins are selling for. I pick up the coin every five minutes and admire it. What a damn good feeling. Just how it felt when I first starting collecting.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I feel like shit for wasting my money.
I'm really not sure what this proves other than it wasn't a good day to sell that coin on GC. Auction results can be volatile a you need two people to set the price.
For myself, it proves that I pay a premium for CAC when I buy a coin at retail, Which does not return the same premium when I sell.
I like CAC, I just think that the premiums for coins with CAC are higher than the value their opinion brings.
I don't think it remotely proves that. You can find numerous examples of CAC coins sold at auction that set record prices. Any single result demonstrates nothing.
Whether coins are CAC or non-CAC examples, many are sold for losses (and many others, for gains).
If you pay retail and sell for wholesale, you’ll take a loss, unless the price has appreciated over time. And in general, if you pay retail, even if you sell for retail, you’ll still lose money unless you can avoid paying a commission to sell it or the price has appreciated.
In the example given, I don’t know whether the original premium paid was too high, whether the coin sold cheaply, when auctioned, whether the market softened in between or of it was some combination of those factors.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
It sounds like either you don’t understand the point being made or some of us don’t understand yours.
I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example: I have an AU coin with just a hint of rub/friction, a strong strike, excellent luster and surfaces that are mark-free, but for distinct graffiti, where someone carved their name.
The coin is/should be graded “AU Detail, Graffiti”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful it would be without the graffiti. Because the graffiti is present, the coin isn’t solid for the grade. It’s a damaged, detail grade coin that therefore, can’t be solid for any grade.
Why no present a non-extreme example? An MS63 coin with a few hairlines where someone gently wiped it with a cloth. That coin certainly be accurately graded and solid for the MS63 grade.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
It sounds like either you don’t understand the point being made or some of us don’t understand yours.
I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example: I have an AU coin with just a hint of rub/friction, a strong strike, excellent luster and surfaces that are mark-free, but for distinct graffiti, where someone carved their name.
The coin is/should be graded “AU Detail, Graffiti”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful it would be without the graffiti. Because the graffiti is present, the coin isn’t solid for the grade. It’s a damaged, detail grade coin that therefore, can’t be solid for any grade.
Why no present a non-extreme example? An MS63 coin with a few hairlines where someone gently wiped it with a cloth. That coin certainly be accurately graded and solid for the MS63 grade.
Because your proposed example isn’t one that would constitute “damaged details”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
He might have been speechless, but I wasn’t. I replied to your post and was hoping for a worthwhile comment.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
At least you now have a tax deduction. I've got plenty of them!
Now tell us more. Why did you buy the coin and what were the comparables at the time and then why did you sell this great coin and it's relative price guide comparables
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
Why did you leave it in a NGC holder? I would have crossed the coin to a CAC holder or PCGS? I think that you left money on the table. Rather than feeling like crap, you should try to maximize the value of your coin!!!!! Just my 2 cents.
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
Why did you leave it in a NGC holder? I would have crossed the coin to a CAC holder or PCGS? I think that you left money on the table. Rather than feeling like crap, you should try to maximize the value of your coin!!!!! Just my 2 cents.
While I'm a fan of maximizing value, and partake in that game myself, even though it had a CAC sticker, CACG may not have kept the plus grade. The best shot would have been to try to cross it only to PCGS, but ONLY if it crossed as a 63+. If that succeeded, CAC would have automatically reapplied the sticker to the new PCGS 63+ holder (as CAC stickering ignores the plus grade). Additionally, the number of potential buyers would then have increased due to what appears to be higher market demand for PCGS w/CAC coins versus NGC w/CAC coins. Let's not derail with THAT PCGS vs. NGC conversation though!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Hey Winesteven -I agree with you 100%. I was trying to help a fellow collector with some suggestions as I dont like someone to lose money on a coin or leave money on the table.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
I gave you a longer response. You can't be both "solid XF" and Details.
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
He might have been speechless, but I wasn’t. I replied to your post and was hoping for a worthwhile comment.😉
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
I gave you a longer response. You can't be both "solid XF" and Details.
You guys are so brainwashed by the commercial graders that it makes me frustrated!
Question, When. a TPGS slabs a coin and the label reads AU Details - cleaned what is the solid grade fpr that coin? Looks like I heed to make this easier and give you a hint... pick one:
Fine, VF, XF,_ AU_, or MS.
Now, I'm the ignorant rookie around here and I'm open to be educated so change my mind.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
He might have been speechless, but I wasn’t. I replied to your post and was hoping for a worthwhile comment.😉
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
I gave you a longer response. You can't be both "solid XF" and Details.
You guys are so brainwashed by the commercial graders that it makes me frustrated!
Question, When. a TPGS slabs a coin and the label reads AU Details - cleaned what is the solid grade fpr that coin? Looks like I heed to make this easier and give you a hint... pick one:
Fine, VF, XF,_ AU_, or MS.
Now, I'm the ignorant rookie around here and I'm open to be educated so change my mind.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
It sounds like either you don’t understand the point being made or some of us don’t understand yours.
I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example: I have an AU coin with just a hint of rub/friction, a strong strike, excellent luster and surfaces that are mark-free, but for distinct graffiti, where someone carved their name.
The coin is/should be graded “AU Detail, Graffiti”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful it would be without the graffiti. Because the graffiti is present, the coin isn’t solid for the grade. It’s a damaged, detail grade coin that therefore, can’t be solid for any grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
The details gtade is absolutely "changed". An "XF details" coin is ABSOLUTELY NOT an "XF" coin at all and can NOT ever be a "solid XF" coin. Details grades are essentially a completely separate grading scale.
I didn't see this post so I guess what you are saying is an XF details coin is not really an XF. Better tell that to the TPGS. I guess they have been lying to us all these years. So what is it a Fine? LOL. IMO, grading a coin is not complicated so I don't understand why experts try to make it complicated.
It looks like you 5* experts will only consider original coins to be solid for the grade. That makes no sense to a non-expert. PCGS must have been right in 1986. BRING BACK BODY BAGS so any slab will be solid for the grade by the graders from now on.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
@Ebeneezer said:
Because it fits my eye appeal. Sorry, not a chance of my paying such a foolish premium simply for another's opinion.
You’re paying for a “solid coin for the assigned grade” that is validated by the best in the business for a small price.
But is it really a small price? It’s typically at least 20-30%. I don’t call that small. And astute Collectors and dealers will cherry pick the A coins just as they did pre-CAC. Many of the stickered coins for sale are B coins. Is that a small premium for a B coin?
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
The details gtade is absolutely "changed". An "XF details" coin is ABSOLUTELY NOT an "XF" coin at all and can NOT ever be a "solid XF" coin. Details grades are essentially a completely separate grading scale.
I didn't see this post so I guess what you are saying is an XF details coin is not really an XF. Better tell that to the TPGS. I guess they have been lying to us all these years. So what is it a Fine? LOL. IMO, grading a coin is not complicated so I don't understand why experts try to make it complicated.
It looks like you 5* experts will only consider original coins to be solid for the grade. That makes no sense to a non-expert. PCGS must have been right in 1986. BRING BACK BODY BAGS so any slab will be solid for the grade by the graders from now on.
I’m not saying that an XF details coin isn’t really an XF.
However, most collectors and dealers use terms such as “solid for the grade” “high end”, “low end”, “average quality “ etc. for straight grade coins - not for detail grade coins.
No one’s trying to make that complicated and it’s not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
NO!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@ProofCollection
Thanks for taking the time to share the dates. I asked mainly because as a general rule, the reverse never will carry the grade. Your images look good. Peace Dollar reverses usually hinder grades especially in the 64 and higher range.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
EF45 really sharpens up the design of Seated halves, particularly on the reverse. With a fringe of luster, it's really nice.
My collection averages around VF30-35. I have a lot of VF30s VF35s, and EF40s, but the "big dogs" are lower grades with a few exceptions. If I liked a mid-grade coin, the decision didn't come down to what grade it was. There are a few coins where I said, "What the hell", and I'd grab an AU58. Those have done well. I want to get more EF45s though after seeing the "North woods" collection and others' additions the past few years.
But I try to avoid coins that have the black crud and associated etching and corrosion. I've dealt with my fair share of it buying raw coins off eBay. That's why it surprises me when it is awarded a green bean.
What the hell. $417 in 2008. It crossed from NGC AU58 to PCGS AU55 recently. It hasn't been submitted to CAC.
I almost forgot this one. It needs to be photographed.
PCGS XF45+ (CAC) - a bit crusty showing nice originality, the crust looks OK, IMO.
If the coin damage was missed and a sticker was accidentally applied, I would not be interested in the coin.
I bought an AU50 1860-O with light spotting over the coin that revealed some old light wiping, but the coin was undergraded, had retoned nicely, and was CAC stickered. It sold for a low price for a CAC coin.
I did the latter, and it was a painful lesson for me. I got sucked into runaway bidding for an 1852 above my grade-range that I also noticed had some scratches on the reverse. I didn't intend on bidding for it because of the high grade and scratches. When it started to close at a low price, I lost my discipline. I went against my gut and with CAC to buy it, and that was a mistake. The mistake was mine for not setting a reasonable limit and sticking with my original assessment of the coin, not CAC's. The end was a wallet against wallet, goal line stand. Or Lucy pulling the football on me, I don't know which. Like a meathead, I WON! And lost. Oh well, at least I had a CAC AU 58 with a scratched reverse and lightly corroded rims. Notice the toning turning to black corrosion along the obverse rim.
A 1912-S XF45 Barber Half PCGS price guides at $300. Assuming it cost you $150, would it pay for you to send it to PCGS and CAC? Probably not. CACG? Maybe. Assuming the coin is actually a VF $250 coin, you are still ahead. You are having FUN with your coins! On the other hand, if you wanted confirmation it is actually a XF45 that wasn't cleaned long ago or a multitude of other sins....
Now if you added a zero and it's a $3000 coin, would you still feel the same way?
Because it fits my eye appeal. Sorry, not a chance of my paying such a foolish premium simply for another's opinion.
Yep and price is right. If there is a CAC VF20 that is the same price as an NGC NGC35 that failed CAC, and it I like it, but realize it is on the lower end of the grade, and maybe not even a VF30 CAC, I would buy it over the CAC coin. There are no absolutes for me, buy the best that I like at the price I can afford, even if raw.
The premium isn’t typically “simply for another’s opinion”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree. You also get a really cool sticker with a really neat colorful holographic design on it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You’re paying for a “solid coin for the assigned grade” that is validated by the best in the business for a small price.
Relevance?
He's joking.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
I’m speechless.
I bought a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC for $5,750. Most beautiful, original coin I have ever seen. Sold it two weeks ago on Great collections for $3,500.
I feel like shit for wasting my money.
The price to get the sticker is small, the price to buy it retail is not small. The premiums for CAC are more than you will get when reselling.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Yes, your very recent real life example was very painful, but that is not necessarily representative of what typically happens.
Sorry for your loss.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Actually, I was being facetious.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The details gtade is absolutely "changed". An "XF details" coin is ABSOLUTELY NOT an "XF" coin at all and can NOT ever be a "solid XF" coin. Details grades are essentially a completely separate grading scale.
Ditto.
I'm really not sure what this proves other than it wasn't a good day to sell that coin on GC. Auction results can be volatile a you need two people to set the price.
I am late to this thread but in the area that I am collecting - Capped Bust dimes by variety, there are many very nice looking coins that are not CAC'd. If you wait for one that is CAC'd then you might not find a CAC'd coin or find one in a grade range not matching the rest of the set. For CAC'd graded coins, I tend to pay more for those coins as market conditions suggest and for non CAC'd coins, I tend to pay less compared to CAC'd coins, again as market conditions suggest as well. My conclusion is if you like the coin and it fits into your collection, then buy it as long as the price is reasonable and you can afford it. Generally, I will pay more for CAC'd coins compared to non CAC'd coins as they are higher in the eye appeal (better looking) than non CAC coins. But I know that when I buy any coin.
It sounds like either you don’t understand the point being made or some of us don’t understand yours.
I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example: I have an AU coin with just a hint of rub/friction, a strong strike, excellent luster and surfaces that are mark-free, but for distinct graffiti, where someone carved their name.
The coin is/should be graded “AU Detail, Graffiti”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful it would be without the graffiti. Because the graffiti is present, the coin isn’t solid for the grade. It’s a damaged, detail grade coin that therefore, can’t be solid for any grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
For myself, it proves that I pay a premium for CAC when I buy a coin at retail, Which does not return the same premium when I sell.
I like CAC, I just think that the premiums for coins with CAC are higher than the value their opinion brings.
I don't think it remotely proves that. You can find numerous examples of CAC coins sold at auction that set record prices. Any single result demonstrates nothing.
Whether coins are CAC or non-CAC examples, many are sold for losses (and many others, for gains).
If you pay retail and sell for wholesale, you’ll take a loss, unless the price has appreciated over time. And in general, if you pay retail, even if you sell for retail, you’ll still lose money unless you can avoid paying a commission to sell it or the price has appreciated.
In the example given, I don’t know whether the original premium paid was too high, whether the coin sold cheaply, when auctioned, whether the market softened in between or of it was some combination of those factors.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why no present a non-extreme example? An MS63 coin with a few hairlines where someone gently wiped it with a cloth. That coin certainly be accurately graded and solid for the MS63 grade.
Duplicate post deleted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Because your proposed example isn’t one that would constitute “damaged details”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's too bad. I was hoping for a worthwhile comment. You may disagree but I was taught (right or wrong) that a coin has a grade and then you state its problem. AFAIK, that's the way TPGS's do it. OR, do they net grade the coin and then detail it or just net grade it and ignore the problem? I think it depends on the TPGS and what the coin is. What does CACG do? Coin by coin?
He might have been speechless, but I wasn’t. I replied to your post and was hoping for a worthwhile comment.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
At least you now have a tax deduction. I've got plenty of them!
Now tell us more. Why did you buy the coin and what were the comparables at the time and then why did you sell this great coin and it's relative price guide comparables
I'm not seeing a 1834 bust quarter NGC MS63+ CAC on the GC website. Have you got the right coin?
See here:
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1683893/1831-Capped-Bust-Quarter-Small-Letters-Browning-4-NGC-MS-63-CAC-Green
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But that's an 1831. The collector said he sold an 1834!!!!!!!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Why did you leave it in a NGC holder? I would have crossed the coin to a CAC holder or PCGS? I think that you left money on the table. Rather than feeling like crap, you should try to maximize the value of your coin!!!!! Just my 2 cents.
While I'm a fan of maximizing value, and partake in that game myself, even though it had a CAC sticker, CACG may not have kept the plus grade. The best shot would have been to try to cross it only to PCGS, but ONLY if it crossed as a 63+. If that succeeded, CAC would have automatically reapplied the sticker to the new PCGS 63+ holder (as CAC stickering ignores the plus grade). Additionally, the number of potential buyers would then have increased due to what appears to be higher market demand for PCGS w/CAC coins versus NGC w/CAC coins. Let's not derail with THAT PCGS vs. NGC conversation though!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Hey Winesteven -I agree with you 100%. I was trying to help a fellow collector with some suggestions as I dont like someone to lose money on a coin or leave money on the table.
I fully agree!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I gave you a longer response. You can't be both "solid XF" and Details.
Oops. I suspect that’s the coin he was talking about, but either way, sorry I didn’t catch the different date.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, I agree he probably erred.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Where?> @jmlanzaf said:
You guys are so brainwashed by the commercial graders that it makes me frustrated!
Question, When. a TPGS slabs a coin and the label reads AU Details - cleaned what is the solid grade fpr that coin? Looks like I heed to make this easier and give you a hint... pick one:
Fine, VF, XF,_ AU_, or MS.
Now, I'm the ignorant rookie around here and I'm open to be educated so change my mind.
.
Here is my previous reply to you:
@MFeld said:
« hide previous quotes
@Married2Coins said:
@johnny010 said:
The coin, no coin, simply cannot be “solid for the grade” and “damaged Details” at the same time.
I think you are incorrect. Otherwise I don't under stand this. A details coin can be solid for whatever it grades w/o the damage. The problem does not change the grade. It changes the price and the desirability.
It sounds like either you don’t understand the point being made or some of us don’t understand yours.
I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example: I have an AU coin with just a hint of rub/friction, a strong strike, excellent luster and surfaces that are mark-free, but for distinct graffiti, where someone carved their name.
The coin is/should be graded “AU Detail, Graffiti”. It doesn’t matter how wonderful it would be without the graffiti. Because the graffiti is present, the coin isn’t solid for the grade. It’s a damaged, detail grade coin that therefore, can’t be solid for any grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I didn't see this post so I guess what you are saying is an XF details coin is not really an XF. Better tell that to the TPGS. I guess they have been lying to us all these years. So what is it a Fine? LOL. IMO, grading a coin is not complicated so I don't understand why experts try to make it complicated.
It looks like you 5* experts will only consider original coins to be solid for the grade. That makes no sense to a non-expert. PCGS must have been right in 1986. BRING BACK BODY BAGS so any slab will be solid for the grade by the graders from now on.
CACG
NGC
PCGS
But is it really a small price? It’s typically at least 20-30%. I don’t call that small. And astute Collectors and dealers will cherry pick the A coins just as they did pre-CAC. Many of the stickered coins for sale are B coins. Is that a small premium for a B coin?
I’m not saying that an XF details coin isn’t really an XF.
However, most collectors and dealers use terms such as “solid for the grade” “high end”, “low end”, “average quality “ etc. for straight grade coins - not for detail grade coins.
No one’s trying to make that complicated and it’s not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.