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Fake double eagle?

Got this 1924 MS66 for decent price. A bit concerned with this extra ray, or die crack, as potentially being a tool mark on a counterfeit. Also note the cert comes back as MS65+ for some reason…

Does this look normal


?

Comments

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Appears genuine.
    Nice looking coin too.

    peacockcoins

  • Yes it has a nice luster though strike a bit weak. So do you think that is a die crack or a large polishing line? It’s definitely raised so isn’t a scratch.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,958 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am sorry, but I think that it's a counterfeit. A check of the certification serial number shows that this piece should be an MS-65+, not an MS-66.

    I also see a grainy texture to the fields in the close-up photo, and a lack of crispness in the strike overall. The overall relief does not look right.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow. If Bill is right (and he knows his stuff) that is next-level scary and I think we all need to be concerned.

    peacockcoins

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks quite real. Those extra rays are die polish lines. The lack of crispness is from the pic and not from the coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MetroDMetroD Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,447 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agreed. The coin looks genuine to me. Hopefully, it is and there was a mix up of some type with the cert ID.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,956 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2024 11:26AM

    @BillJones said:
    I am sorry, but I think that it's a counterfeit. A check of the certification serial number shows that this piece should be an MS-65+, not an MS-66.

    ** I also see a grainy texture to the fields in the close-up photo, and a lack of crispness in the strike overall. The overall relief does not look right. **

    Until we hear otherwise, Bill's comments will not be taken lightly.

    peacockcoins

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That "grainy texture" looks like what I've seen in many other slabbed Saints. It's called mint frost.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2024 11:37AM

    @braddick said:

    @BillJones said:
    I am sorry, but I think that it's a counterfeit. A check of the certification serial number shows that this piece should be an MS-65+, not an MS-66.

    ** I also see a grainy texture to the fields in the close-up photo, and a lack of crispness in the strike overall. The overall relief does not look right. **

    Until we hear otherwise, Bill's comments will not be taken lightly.

    I think that is something good like a straight shooter. Bills entitled to that, jmo
    As well as some of the others here as well. Peace ☮️

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don’t see any of the usual markers for a counterfeit plus the scan code and bar code work.
    Counterfeiters don’t duplicate these.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,958 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    That "grainy texture" looks like what I've seen in many other slabbed Saints. It's called mint frost.

    What about the lumps of metal and the mark on the eagle's third wing feather from the bottom, which should look like more of a gouge than a copy of a gouge?

    The killer is the grade mismatch on the certification check. If I found that with an iPad at a show, I'd pass right away.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    @PerryHall said:
    That "grainy texture" looks like what I've seen in many other slabbed Saints. It's called mint frost.

    What about the lumps of metal and the mark on the eagle's third wing feather from the bottom, which should look like more of a gouge than a copy of a gouge?

    The killer is the grade mismatch on the certification check. If I found that with an iPad at a show, I'd pass right away.

    I see normally expected contact marks on the third feather but I don't see an lumps of metal there.
    @MarkFeld Do see what Bill is talking about on the third feather?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As Greenstang stated both QR code and bar code scan correctly and some other slab features appear correct.
    @CoinCommando1776 you can also verify that the hologram on the back is not a sticker on the outside of the slab, the label should have small blue dots at the bottom that get larger moving up the label causing the blue color (use magnifier) and finally on the bottom of the slab there should be some letters etched into it (can see without magnifier but tilt for correct lighting).

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coin is fine....extra ray is die polish as @PerryHall pointed out. coin might have been upgraded and pcgs never changed the cert info.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
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  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,447 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @BillJones said:

    @PerryHall said:
    That "grainy texture" looks like what I've seen in many other slabbed Saints. It's called mint frost.

    What about the lumps of metal and the mark on the eagle's third wing feather from the bottom, which should look like more of a gouge than a copy of a gouge?

    The killer is the grade mismatch on the certification check. If I found that with an iPad at a show, I'd pass right away.

    I see normally expected contact marks on the third feather but I don't see an lumps of metal there.
    @MarkFeld Do see what Bill is talking about on the third feather?

    No, but between the less-than-ideal pictures and the cert issue, I’d pass on the coin anyway.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • My concern was that the slab was opened and label replaced with an MS66 to try and scam a few hundred dollars (scammers will do much more for much less after all). I originally had this concern when I noticed the sonic sealing of the slab apppesrs a little messy, and a crack at the bottom. It doesn’t “feel” tampered with, but I’ve heard stories of this being done nearly perfect.

    The luster looks legit mint luster from 100 years ago, so at this time I think the coin is genuine and the label swapped (or pcgs error).

    Other than a weak strike (I’ve seen similar on others), the only indication on the coin itself that something may be amiss is the die gouge/polishing line in the photo. The fields are no more grainy than other coins I have, just didn’t do the photos good enough.
    Here you can see the crack at bottom of slab, though doesn’t look as bad in person.

  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,307 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks good to me.

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinCommando1776 said:
    My concern was that the slab was opened and label replaced with an MS66 to try and scam a few hundred dollars (scammers will do much more for much less after all). I originally had this concern when I noticed the sonic sealing of the slab apppesrs a little messy, and a crack at the bottom. It doesn’t “feel” tampered with, but I’ve heard stories of this being done nearly perfect.

    The luster looks legit mint luster from 100 years ago, so at this time I think the coin is genuine and the label swapped (or pcgs error).

    Other than a weak strike (I’ve seen similar on others), the only indication on the coin itself that something may be amiss is the die gouge/polishing line in the photo. The fields are no more grainy than other coins I have, just didn’t do the photos good enough.
    Here you can see the crack at bottom of slab, though doesn’t look as bad in person.

    If they opened it, you'd see a lot more damage than that little crack

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,958 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A $20 St. Gaudens coin should be really flashy and really sharp in MS-65 or 66. Look at all of the marks on the sun below “in God we trust.” Do you think those marks are consistent with a Gem Uncirculated grade? There is something fishy here.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • To be fair: I have 3 other MS65+ which I graded two myself, both of which have slightly more scratches than this one.

    Updated photos attached

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,995 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greenstang said:
    Don’t see any of the usual markers for a counterfeit plus the scan code and bar code work.
    Counterfeiters don’t duplicate these.

    yes they do

    the lazy ones don't

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the cert comes back online as an MS65+ then that is what the coin is until and unless PCGS updates the cert to an MS66.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Waiting for PCGS to review photos, emailed them Friday.

  • Cranium_Basher73Cranium_Basher73 Posts: 3,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinCommando1776 said:
    My concern was that the slab was opened and label replaced with an MS66 to try and scam a few hundred dollars (scammers will do much more for much less after all). I originally had this concern when I noticed the sonic sealing of the slab apppesrs a little messy, and a crack at the bottom. It doesn’t “feel” tampered with, but I’ve heard stories of this being done nearly perfect.

    The luster looks legit mint luster from 100 years ago, so at this time I think the coin is genuine and the label swapped (or pcgs error).

    Other than a weak strike (I’ve seen similar on others), the only indication on the coin itself that something may be amiss is the die gouge/polishing line in the photo. The fields are no more grainy than other coins I have, just didn’t do the photos good enough.
    Here you can see the crack at bottom of slab, though doesn’t look as bad in person.

    Possible that the slab was accidentally dropped at some point.

    Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.

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