Future of Coin Shows
hedgefundtradingdesk
Posts: 42 ✭✭✭
I just attended Long Beach; while several top dealers were there, the show overall was a sad sack of its former self. I'm a fan of Long Beach, but it's more Sports Card flea market than major coin show right now.
The population-weighted center of America is in Missouri, yet ALL of the remaining major shows are east of the center. I don't consider the Colorado Springs blizzard-fest or the empty Long Beach show major any longer. It's amazing that ALL national coin shows are in half of the country.
Back in January 2022, the California dealer contingent staged a soft boycott of the FUN show, over a failure to implement mandatory injections and pro-looter masking. Two and a half years later, the verdict is in: Orlando is the sine qua non of coin shows, while NO other shows are must-attend. The second best show, the ANA, is routinely attacked by the dealer community for its venue choices.
So the response from the East Coast Cabal is to create even more East Coast shows, to cannibalize the existing failing shows? Tampa, one week after Long Beach. And now both shows are inside Heritage's lackadaisical ANA Shipping window. What do Tampa, Nashville, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh have in common? Very few non-stop flights outside of a few eastern hubs.
Whitman November should be a show of national importance. Lovely Fall weather, a long drought between September shows and January FUN, location on the Acela corridor, etc. But Baltimore suffers from Baltimore fatigue from too many shows, lack of auctions, Stacks' inability to modernize technology, and security and service concerns, As a result, Baltimore is a regional show that is dying slightly less quickly than Long Beach.
Dealers can't expect collectors to fly in, when there are no non-stops, no auctions, no fresh coins, half-empty bourses, questionable security, a lack of entertainment, and vicious show-on-show competition from lame upstarts and trash-talking dealers.
Central States may be the dark horse of coin shows. It is now America's Westernmost major coin show depending on ANA location. It has easy airport access, and occurs during the Spring lull, between March and June. It is also a pleasant venue, with cheap accommodations and ample restaurants. CSNS may soon become America's #2 coin show.
I realize this post will anger many, but where is the effort to consolidate show attendance into national events worthy of a collector's time? It seems like the opposite, using one set of lame shows to kill another set of lame shows...
Comments
That is a quality post.
What are your recommendations?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe shows will be around for sometime. I am very stressed from all the robbery news and dealers even being attacked in show parking lot. Then a brazen shoplifting event at Long Beach.
I have always worried about some car trouble thing in route but tracker scum a huge concern. Airports even more stressful.
There have been two recent startup shows in Oklahoma City and Tulsa, OK. Both did well and have the potential to grow. The ANA WFoM is in OKC next summer.
The problems with Western shows are generally believed to be access and sales tax. You need a major airport with service to the east and no sales tax charged on coins. Oh, and a venue that wants the show.
OKC - Not sure of sales tax - has pretty decent service to multiple destinations (and is 3h from DFW): https://flyokc.com/cities-served-nonstop-map
I'm not saying that solves all the problems, but it's what you need to look at.
https://www.flydenver.com/nonstop-routes/ and https://tax.colorado.gov/sites/tax/files/Sales60.pdf but
That's going to cause complexity for dealers. Is an ASE (Bullion coin, $1 face value, classified as legal tender by law) taxable? Probably not. A Canadian Maple or Krugerrand???? Need a lawyer to tell me what the law actually says, not the summary.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The value of a show lies in the network effects. Maximize the connections among collectors, dealers, auctions houses, graders, and events, and you have a successful show.
When you start pulling out parts of the network, you undermine the network effects. No auctions? No Lot pickup? No transport? Competing shows a week apart? Too many shows at the same venue?
Long Beach has three shows a year. Both winter and fall were two weeks AFTER Heritage Auctions... right in the prime shipping window. And Fall gets hit with the Tampa parasite. The venue has lots of problems with crime and air travel as it is, but those additional problems are crippling.
Ditto Baltimore, but at least Baltimore still has unique show times (November!).
The internet has made shows less important, but shows still matter. Organizers need to think carefully about maximizing the network effects.
Interesting post. Given the inevitable continuing shift from in person to online platforms, would suspect the maximal network effect to come from a digital, rather than an in person focus. No argument that in person shows advance networks, but decline of shows appear inevitable in the digital age. Think you fairly acknowledge that, your post is well thought about managing the decline. Who knows, maybe not too far in the future there will be "Virtual Show"--hopefully without goggles!
I think a large show in Houston would be perfect. Easy to get to, cheap flights (comparatively speaking), large city with cost effective accommodations. No issue getting full network effect here.
+1. I think Dallas or Austin would be good venues also.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I’m partial to Dallas. Home of Heritage and a major air hub. I’m guessing the distribution of collectors and dealers geographically may preclude tho. On the other hand some central shows seem to work.
Personally, I love going to shows, they are some of my favorite times of the year, and I have a blast at each one. I love also being able to drive 3 hours and be there without a flight. I simply don't have the money to fly or drive to California(don't want to be there anyway) or Baltimore for a few days. I just have gas and entry fees on the line.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
The LB show has not been the same since the pandemic. The show is in a smaller room, vendors selling books and supplies don’t attend anymore, lot viewing is in the bourse without privacy, there are no educational presentations, and the auction is after the show. LB rightly or wrongly suffers from the overall perception that California is not very safe. JetBlue doesn’t fly non stop into LB from the East Coast anymore and it’s a PIA getting to LB from LAX. It’s a shame because 20 years ago LB was one of the better shows in the country. I don’t know what the promoters should do but intuitively a show located with 20 million people within a 1-2 hour car drive should be able to thrive especially with it being in the backyard of PCGS.
California has the most ANA MEMBERS, but the ANA does not come west of the rockies. Not since 2016
Over 8 years ago. NGC has disappeared from california. California members should drop their memberships., all I get is a magazine . I never use their website .
Yes long Beach show has baseball cards, jewelry dealers, and hair extension dealer booth. Oh they have coins too..
I use to attend all 3 days now it's 1 and 1/2 days . But I can do the show in a half day really. SAD!
Most of my buying now is online. At recent long beach show I bought one collector coin. The month before I bought 6 or 8 coins online. I go to meet other friends /collectors and Vist the "expert" to get an opinion which is never ever in my favor. I guess I have no knowledge after 50 years collecting and 100's of coin shows and dozens of ANA SHOWS and dozens of coin classes with famous numismatists summer seminar classes., a dozen top Regustry sets,,
A few times consulting for PCGS in my specialty, acknowledgements in reference books etc., plus and running coin clubs. Whew! I guess it's time to hang up my cleats! "The coin world has and is changing".
One show I know of that is growing is the PAN show just outside of Pittsburgh. In the state of PA there is on tax on coins or bullion. There is sales tax on paper money and supplies. Hotels and places to eat are within reason. This show is truly under rated. The last ANA show in Pittsburgh many dealers had their best show in years.
There are too many coin shows based on the actual collectors willing to travel to them.
Venues are problems in DFW. The convention centers are very expensive and often too small spaces.
When the old Arlington Convention Center closed down last year, TNA was forced to move the yearly show to Conroe (oh, 1h outside of Houston) because the spaces in the DFW area were at least twice the historical cost. The Lone Star Convention Center where this year's show was held is 56,000 SqFt.
The new Arlington Convention Center has three ballrooms, 19,649, 28,014, and 51,224 square feet (if you attended at the old ExpoCenter it was 48,601 SqFt. Irving is 50,000 SqFt.
All of these are too small for an ANA-sized show.
If you attended the Pittsburgh show in 2023, that room is 236,900 SqFt. The Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont is 250,000 SqFt. The Oklahoma City Convention Center for 2025 is 200,730 SqFt
Fort Worth is 182,613 SqFt.
Austin is 247,052 SqFt.
KBH (Dallas) maxes out at 724,526 (when ANA was in Dallas several years ago they only used two of the halls totaling 200KSqFt and the comics people were the other 500K.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I've got news for you -- the "Tampa parasite" is very likely to be the next "Big Thing." The people behind it have deep experience in both the numismatic and convention space.
They are promoting the crap out of it, and seem to have a ton of dealer support. If it's good, and by all indications it will be, collectors will flock. Just wait and see. The exact opposite of a parasite.
The fact that Long Beach kind of sucks is Exhibit A as to why California doesn't have more shows, regardless of how large a population it has. Collectors Universe also knows a thing or two about the space. The fact that they can't make it better, and that the people behind the Tampa show have shown no indication of even considering California, really tells you all you need to know about California and coin shows.
The other issue in considering the OP's rant is that there isn't any centralized planning to organize shows so that the "network effect" can be maximized. As such, the market will decide and that is why Tampa is going to replace LB.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Took my Granddaughters to the Long Beach Expo on Saturday September7 2024. WE arrived at 11:30am. As we walked thru the bourse area (they were going thru the Kid's treasure hunt) i noticed that that quite a few dealers had already packed up and left. By 1pm quite a few more were leaving the show. I understand many dealers are from out of state but isn't this the reason the Expo changed the shows ending from Sunday to Saturday years back, to keep them from leaving early? Love this show but was disappointed this time. This is my first post as a new member.
The loss of anchoring auctions plays a big role in this. They were great when there would be auctions after the bourse sessions nightly, with a catered platinum sale on Friday nights. It was an attendance magnet.
Then there were auctions sessions throughout the days, during bourse hours. That was extremely annoying/frustrating.
Now, you might get lot viewing at some shows, but no auctions.
Some might reasonably argue that the higher quality of internet images and relatively low fraction of floor bidders does render most on-premise auctions obsolete. If the case, then shows just simply pay that price.
California shows were hurt by the state's nexus sales tax requirement. If an out-of-state dealer conducts sakes physically in the state for 10 days or more in a year, that dealer needs a CA tax ID and collect sales tax on sales to CA address deliveries even when not in the state. That killed the San Jose show purchase by CU pretty much right after acquiring it. This dissuaded out of state dealers setting up at Long Beach.
Shows were traditionally great in being able to access many dealers in one location and comparing inventories and prices. The internet does that much more efficiently. It costs site fees for sales usually, but the travel overhead is gone. The thrill of immediate possession of coins is lost, as there are shipping latencies. Purest will justifiably argue the merits of in hand inspection over internet images.
Lastly, younger collectors - and they are really out there - do almost all of their buying and selling on the internet. Some medium-sized regional and club shows are a bit different. Sometimes, regular collector club members set up and sell market fresh material. They often are less motivated to sell on eBay and just bring their accumulations (out of current focus or completed) to those annual or semiannual or monthly shows.
I have attended a few Long Beach shows and enjoyed them very much.
However, living in the SF Bay Area makes it time consuming and expensive attending Long Beach.
I remember the old, large, Santa Clara show that I attended regularly over the years (until it was discontinued). That show was a relatively short drive (about 45 miles) to get to and I could spend an entire day at the show, needing only to pay for the cost of gasoline, show entrance fee and overprice bourse hot dogs.
The Tampa show is attractive in that dealers can bring their families and make a vacation out of their visit. Busch Gardens, Epcot Center, Universal Studios all within a few minutes to an hour and 15 minute drive, as well as beaches and other fun things to do. The population center is large which hopefully brings in a lot of business. Even for me I am hopping on a plane from the east coast of Florida, flying in, renting a car, and flying back in one day all for under$150….which is a pretty good deal in my opinion. Hopefully I’ll make a few purchases and meet some new friends in the coin world! Cheers, karl
If one books a ticket from the Bay Area in advance, the trip to LB is still reasonable. I flew down and back on Thursday and was able to still spend several hours at the show. As I mentioned in a different thread, I did take an Uber both ways from the airport because I was dropping off a large submission and this added to my expense (I usually rent a car for the day trip).
A lot of members are quick to eulogize about the death of the show and they should probably reduce to two shows a year, but it is still the largest show for those of us on the West Coast and "day trip-able". Without the LB show, we in the Bay Area are left with some smaller local venues (Concord, SAC, San Jose and Walnut Creek) and those are typically attended by the same dealers with the same selection.
Tim
The problem is that Tampa competes geographically with Orlando and temporally with the ANA; that's the customer base that is being cannibalized. Travelling there is inconceivable unless the show can outperform both FUN and ANA, which won't happen without an auction.
Replacing Long Beach? That's easy for a show that already suicided itself.
For me the must attend are ANA, FUN and CSNS.
I never really thought of the lack of direct flight aspect to a major coin show location, as I'm not a dealer.
But now that I think of it, I wouldn't want my valuable inventory changing planes or making stops one or more times.
On and off the plane one time only with a valuable stash of coin inventory would be a must for me.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Lack of non-stops matters for two reasons:
1- travel time is immense for a one or two day show
2- smaller regional jets don't have large overhead spaces for carry-on coin bags.
When did this go into affect?
I love California but I am not going across the country other than for an ANA (and then only if it works out).
What about Phoenix? Why can’t we get a big show there that would benefit the west coast folks?
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Here's a crazy idea: do a show on a cruise ship. Plenty of time, no sales tax in intl waters, entertainment and booze to grease the wheels of commerce, its an actual vacation so the family uninterested in coins will still want to go, and risk of theft is much less if there's nowhere to run off to with the coins, right?
I have been on 2 cruises. I was never so board in my life!
Except for the crap tables....................
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Maybe the LA Dodgers are moving back to Brooklyn and the SF Giants to Manhattan?
I like the GAC show in Tampa and hope it works out. Of course, I have my reasons. But to be sure, there were a lot of great dealers present and the layout, location, and hall convenience were all just great. The only negative thing was the attendance, and the effect it had on the mood of the other dealers.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
NYC area has lacked a good midsized show for quite some time. I’m trying to change this by restarting the Mt Kisco show and moving it in closer to NYC. Also expanding to a two day weekend show. But and this is a big but… We need your help. Please talk it up, try to come if you can, ask your favorite dealers if they will be there. With luck this event can grow into a nice regional show…. Hope to see you there. FREE admission and no charge to park….We already have many national dealers in attendance such as Tom from Northeast Numismatics, Col Ellsworth from Butternut, Chris from Long Island Coin. Anthony from American Collectors Group, Ed Doran, and so many more.
A lot of great things are planned. Help it succeed. Thank you
How can we help? Any details on the upcoming Mt Kisco show?
Best of luck in your efforts going forward.
The Mt Kisco show (in Elmsford, NY) is billed as a "Coin and Collectibles Fair" with 50 tables, too far to travel for probably not a lot of coin dealers.
This sounds like the beginning of a big budget action heist movie starring Jason Statham.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Do what other businesses do to generate interest. Drop sales prices at shows to get more traffic. It certainly works with cars and trucks.
Post Wayfair v. South Dakota, effective April 1, 2019
https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/out-of-state-retailers/
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Thanks
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Baltimore has been slowing down but I think that's mostly about local security concerns and the worldwide decline of the importance of coin shows. I certainly can't blame the Stacks-Bowers Baltimore auctions, which have remained very large and very interesting. My only real issue with the show is that it's too long, so the show starts winding down on Friday. If it were up to me, dealer set up would be Thursday afternoon, not Wednesday afternoon.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
For large shows, we plan (my wife and I make a vacation around the shows) on attending The PAN Coin Show in Pittsburgh in Oct, the SC Numismatic Assoc show in Greenville, SC also in Oct, The FUN show in Jan 2025, in Feb 2025 Atlanta's ANA National Money show,
I don’t know, I’ve only flown out of town one time in my life just to attend a coin show. I live in Orange County in California right now and I attend most Long Beach shows and go to a few smaller local shows sponsored by coin clubs a few times a year. When I lived in Charlotte NC, I attended way more shows that were in driving distance, at least once a month. The Long Beach show is smaller than it used to be, but I always end up finding one or two nice coins that fit in my collection there. I used to attend for at least 2 days when it was larger, now I can look over the whole bourse easily in one day. But that’s not so bad for me, it’s a fun diversion and a good reason to take a day off from work, gives me something to look forward to. I haven’t done so in a while, but I like the even smaller local shows for finding raw coins that I can get at a good price and submit them for slabbing, most of my MS slabbed coins were obtained this way, I rarely purchase MS slabbed coins. It’s a lot harder to find gem coins that aren’t all maxed out grade wise in slabs with stickers all over them at larger shows.
Mr_Spud
I thought I read a few Long Beach reviews post-Covid from Charmy and others here that the show was a big success. I had assumed the Big 3 -- ANA, FUN, Long Beach -- were all thriving since 2022.
Are we talking a 5-10% reduction in dealers/tables....or 30-40% ?
I think for Long Beach that it is about 30% less major dealers than it used to be, but that actually might be driving more business to the ones who still do attend.
Mr_Spud
I hit that show a few times right BEFORE Covid hit. It was pretty nice -- good location, decent dealer and public attendance, good materials (even 1 or 2 small presentations). Haven't been back since 2020 but will try and get there assuming you are maintaining it.
Given that there's 3x a year, so there's now been 9 LB shows since the beginning of 2022, it's been a mixed bag. Overall, there have been some very strong ones, and like this most recent iteration, some that were a bit weaker. But never are they even close to ghost towns like what it sounds like happened in Tampa sadly.
That feels about right, maybe 20% less IMO. Either way, it has morphed Long Beach into becoming a really solid regional show, but clearly not the national hallmark of what it used to be.
I didn't know there were 3 a year, I just though it was once a year like FUN and ANA and CSNS. Thanks !!
Was Central States on a down slope heading into Covid ? Seems like they did a U-Turn and it's on the upswing.
Kudos to a very well done OP that tees up a great topic for discussion.
I’ll confess that my evaluation of a show is almost entirely based on the level of economic activity that occurs between the dealers at the show (with tables and early bird) and between dealers and collectors attending the show. However, we need to keep in mind that the organizations that own and operate the major shows often have other objectives that are at least in addition to and sometimes in conflict with this view of show evaluation. This necessarily means they will make decisions related to operating the show that won’t always be in line with improving the show on our evaluation scale.
The non-profit organizations running shows generally have objectives around promoting numismatics in their geographic area. If we located and read their charters, we’d find their reason for existence is a lot more about these other activities than making a great coin show for us dealers and collectors (although the show is typically in furtherance of at least some of those objectives). Thus, club shows could very well be serving their purposes even if they are not run to maximize attendance and economic activity. Even though the organizations are non-profit they typically operate the shows to run a profit which allows them to engage in other activities in furtherance of their charter (education, scholarships, newsletters, etc.). Expenditures on show growth and marketing reduce funds available for these other activities. It’s a balancing act that doesn’t necessary mean maximizing show economic activity is the right answer for the organization as a whole.
The for-profit organizations have a profit motive, of course. Profit can be increased through higher bourse fees, other dealer a-la-carte fees and admission fees. Charging too much will turn too many dealers/public away but there is a level at which higher fees equal higher profit for the promoter. This, of course, negatively impacts the financial situation for dealers and collectors. Same with advertising and promoting the show. The only way this provides additional profit for the promoters is if it ultimately sells additional tables (and potentially admission fees where there is an admission charge). Even then, at some point, additional bourse (and admission) fees don’t cover additional marketing costs. In other words, making the show amazing for us isn’t necessarily in their financial interests. Realistically, it is often good enough to be just good enough to keep us all (or most of us) coming back even if it is somewhat begrudgingly.
Organizations like Whitman and Collectors Universe are in a completely different category. They are for-profit entities but the shows they operate account for an overall very small share of their gross sales and profits. It isn’t even obvious that the reason they own and operate the shows is to make a profit from owning and operating the shows. It seems more likely that they do this for the overall network/brand effect. One could easily see either organization deciding to operate a show just for the marketing value of having their branding prominently displayed everywhere at the show and highly visible to the major dealers and collectors who attend the show. Think about their overall marketing budgets and the cost effectiveness of their other advertising options (e.g., full page ads in numismatic magazines) in getting the branding in front of as many relevant eyeballs. This could mean than even a poor financially performing show is still a win for the owner in brand awareness and marketing. The decision to have three shows a year could have more to do with having three opportunities to promote their brand to thousands of collectors and dealers rather than a belief that the market can support three shows. Whatever their reasons where for acquiring the shows, with both organizations now under new ownership, it is likely that current their objectives for these shows are at least one step removed from their original objectives.
In case of PCGS, it is very possible that submission revenue even exceeds bourse fee revenue. Even easier to see show submission profits exceeding show operating profits (given low incremental costs associated with grading at a show near their HQ versus high percentage of bourse revenue being spent to cover convention center rent, hall decoration, security, etc.). I don’t know this of course but it may be that as long as enough submissions come in everything is good and it doesn’t matter how many tables are sold, how much public attends, or how many dealers leave early.
Collectors Universe also operates PSA and the sports card and sport memorabilia niche is much bigger than the coin niche. Collectors Universe’s future growth opportunities are almost certainly larger in the sports card/memorabilia area than in numismatics. So, it should be no surprise that Long Beach has taken on a significant sports card/memorabilia focus. While we coin people might see it as a sign of decline it could very well be a sign of design from smart people who know exactly what they are doing.
In summary, just because we see the shows scoring lower these days on our evaluation system doesn’t mean that the owners and operators of the show see it the same way. In fact, this may be the result of them better managing the shows to meet their own objectives which sometimes align with ours and sometimes don’t.
I have some other thoughts on this topic that I’ll post later when I have time to assemble them but thought I'd start here.
WH