1802 Half Dime and Nine 1804 dimes in this little estate auction
sellitstore
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Multiple 72 DD cents and proof no s dimes, too. Unusual.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
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The 1802 half dime in Good-4, which interests me, is already up to $71,300 with the buyers’ fee. I have no idea who is running this auction, and the reverse grades Fair.
I may as well get that ridiculously priced coin out of my mind. Of all the rare coins I love to hate, that one heads the list along with the 1913 Liberty Nickel.
I'll admit that buying coins from furniture auctioneers isn't the norm but you have to admit that he has some interesting coins. As we all know, pre 1808 type is very tough and much tougher if you want problem-free examples.
The San Francisco assay bar caught my attention until I realized it's a copy, and being sold as such. There's a little selection of so called dollars near the end for those interested and some large size type currency as well.
Yes, that reverse is only fair and there are some pretty good digs on the obverse, too, but still a rarity and better than some of this date.
"Honey, I'm going to the auction to pick up a bedroom set and an 1802 half dime..."
Pretty eclectic selection; interesting. Nothing for me to bid on though.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
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its nice to see this sorta thing, i like
Real collector who didn’t give his family a better liquidation plan. Posting here did them a fav much to the lament of the local pickers
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I went to an auction like this up in Maine about 25-years ago that was being conducted by a local estate and furniture auction house. The bourse floor was predominantly filled with what I interpreted to be either locals or folks who regularly did the local auction circuit, but there were several of us who heard about the sale and made the trip up to see the coins. The auctioneer had submitted all the coins through PCGS prior to the sale, but the pieces were really, really original and had great eye appeal, so when the auction started the prices quickly went well beyond what the auctioneer expected. In fact, he stopped the auction of more than one lot when prices got far higher than anticipated and confirmed with us in the audience that we were all on the same page and bidding on the same lot. I think everything went to the few of us who made the trip from out of the area to attend the auction.
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Would that happen to be Hap Moores auction house?
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Logan and McCloskey list the appearances/sales of the 1802 half dime in their book Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837. They cover a range of 1859 through 1998 (when their book was published). I went looking for possible provenances to this 1802 above. There aren't any pictures in these pages, so my best guess below may not even be close. (A Google Lens reverse search of the obverse above didn't bring me to anything conclusive either.) There are books on the subject, which I don't own, so I'll leave it to others to track this down - but hope someone does and posts it in this thread!
The most likely in my (rapid) perusal:
1875a "Date clear - Reverse poor" Col M. I. Cohen, Edward Cogan, 10/25/1875:813 (to H. Ely @ $23 - Newlin- 16).
“1802 . Rarest of the half dimes. Date remarkable clear. Stars on the right hand side very good. Head rubbed. Reverse poor. Battered. Extremely rare.”
After that 1875 sale, I didn't see another one that repeats this coin, although it may have been described quite differently and I could have overlooked it. It's interesting to think that the coin may have been in this family's (/person's?) possession since the 19th century, only to find itself in a furniture auction. heheh
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
That was one of many that I have attended and I can't remember buying much of anything. But I was on his mailing list until he died a few years ago-just from registering in one auction.
The Amato (2017) book incorporates the Davis list in the L-M book and extends it with plates and more recent provenance.
I don't have a copy of the Amato book, but it would be the one to use if you want to find the provenance of any 1802 half dime.
https://www.numislit.com/pages/books/4781/jon-p-amato/numismatic-background-and-census-of-1802-half-dimes-a-classic-american-rarity
Pete Smith made an addenda (also in 2017) to the Amato book which updates it significantly.
It includes plate photos for 11 of the now 36 known coins.
https://nnpdev.wustl.edu/Library/Periodical/515312
https://coins.ha.com/information/half-dimes-1802.s
That one looks like a possible candidate and $23 was a strong price for a 5 cent coin back then. Based on the final price of $69,440 for today's sale, how did this example do, price wise?
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It better be a darn nice bedroom set😂
Martin
1802 half dime PCGS has it valued at 110k in G-04. Seems to me someone got a pretty good deal on a very rare coin.
In terms of scarcity the winner got a good deal, since these barely come up for auction. The coin itself isn't very eye appealing, has issues but got a straight grade.
The only other comparable coin was a G6 that sold for $57.5k in 2012 at HA, and it was a lot more original. I think price-wise this example probably sold a bit closer to what it's worth than others think.
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
Interesting hoard of nine 1804 dimes, about 7-9% of all 1804 dimes, per the latest rarity estimates of the 2015 Variety Identification Guide, which I believe are accurate. I would have bid on a couple, had I known about the auction.
Agree - I think it's a good buy. I did pull up the 2012 HA coin that @Davidk7 called up, and frankly, I like this one better. The HA one looks "monkeyed with." Maybe I'm being judgy here. lol
If I were seriously in the market for a coin of this stature (which is significant to me) I would most assuredly buy all the books on the topic. @yosclimber, as usual, has excellent resources to share here.
This 1802 is the kind of coin I fantasize about finding in a dealer's junk box. hey, a guy can dream, right?
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
To each their own! I like the HA example more, but these coins are so dang scarce that it just doesn't matter.
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
Went to a non-numismatic auction house in Chicago one time for a coin sale that happened to have a lot that was something like 62,000 Swiss Francs in high denomination notes that were obsolete, so none of the big local banks would exchange them, but redeemable in Switzerland if you knew how to do that. Because the local banks had rejected them the auction house put an estimate of $100 on the lot.
It opened at $100 and some local rube goes 110, someone else goes 120 and the rube goes 130, and Dennis Forgue makes a slight advance to $40,000. The room stopped.
The rube loudly whines “But the estimate is $100!” and Dennis bellows “SO BID ACCORDINGLY!!!” The other people in the room who might have chased Dennis up never tried, and I think he made over $16,000 on the lot.
The 1804 dimes went crazy cheap.
There's a 15% BP, so the VF35 sold for 20k. Greysheet is 20k, so im not sure what reference you used to give you the impression of crazy cheap. Granted, yes, they seem to have sold for wholesale, but I wouldn't expect to see retail prices at a rinky dink estate auction like this.
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@Bikergeek I have the Book by Jon P. Amato on 1802 Half Dimes. It has pictures of the 32 known as of 2017. The above coin does not match any of them, imo. There also 9 coins listed as "additional appearances". Not able to be tracked down as of 2017, I assume.
I looked for the 1875 Cogan data in the provenance section of each coin but did not see it. Battered is some kind of damage in my mind and I see nothing resembling it on the above coin. I do not see enough damage to warrant a details notation either. I would grade the coin VG/Fair. A much nicer looking coin than many of the known ones.
Just my opinion.
Without access to any additional details, I’m guessing the eclectic mix is because the auction house seeded it with multiple consignments.
It’s nice to romanticize about an old estate sequestered away for >100 years, and that may well be the case for some of the early type, but a lot of the offerings looked like typical small auction/Sunday bourse coins.
@HoledandCreative nice research! I wonder if terms like "battered" were broadly used back then, or if this was one cataloger exercising their creative writing skills. But your work to try to find this coin - and not being able to - suggests that this may be new to the population, which in itself is exciting. Looking at the appearances over the decades, and seeing the count go from "three known" (1863) to "now some 15 in the hands of collectors" (1888) to "somewhere between 35 and 45 [specimens]".
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
A number of the 1802 survivors were bent and some probably with digs from being hit. I could see this described as "battered". One has such a badly corroded reverse that it resembles a shipwreck coin with no detail. Yes, this one isn't too bad-by comparison.
BP is only 12% (3% discount) if paid by wire and large purchases would probably require wire payment. While wholesale prices (or less) do happen at these "rinky dink" sales, I look at that as an opportunity. And it seems that retail (or above) prices happen pretty often, too. I've been both a buyer and seller for years at these (and numismatic) auctions for decades
Anybody check the 1804s (or anything else) for die varieties? If the 1802 was "fresh" maybe some of the others were, too. Go to it!
Anybody hear from anyone who was a buyer?
The auction page no longer links to the multiple photos of the coins, so it's not possible to look at die varieties unless you can do it from the single remaining obverse photo or if you saved them early on Thursday.
I did save the slab photo of the 1802 half dime.
Very rare bird, no doubt. The mintage figures seem a real mystery.
The Mint Report for 1803 reflects 10,460 half dimes were struck in 1802, all in the quarter ending June 1802. See pg. 3, (pdf pg. number).
https://ia601304.us.archive.org/30/items/MintReport1803/MintReport1803.pdf
The Report does include an additional 2550 half dimes struck in the quarter ending March 31, 1801. Unclear why the prior year was included in the 1802 Report. The Redbook at one time apparently used the combined figure of 13k in the past, but not currently.
In the following article, a mintage figure of 3,060 is referred to:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/challenging-draped-bust-half-dimes
Not singling this article out. Others use a similar estimate.
Is there a known reason why the figure 3060 is common? I do understand there is a theory prior year obverse dies may have been used (reverse die was carried into 1802 as noted by Amato ). Have no reason to doubt the theory an obverse die was likewise carried forward, nor information to prove it. Just trying to figure out the basis/origin of the 3060 mintage estimate.
I agree. An 1804 dime is a very rare coin. Alot of the biggest collections do not have an 1804 dime. Having 9 of them is a big hoard and must have taken a long time to achieve. The 1846 half dime also went too cheap. Even ebay would have brought a lot more for these coins. If a knowleable dealer or collecter with ability to purchase them all would have made a lot of money. The seller made a big mistake in my opinion by not using a more well-known coin auction venue such as Heritage. When you have 9 coins of such rarity you should sell them one at a time-not all at once.
A mintage of 3,000 makes the coin rare because there are no known hoards. There the “1% rule” which states that roughly 1% of the mintage is all that survives. One percent of 3,000 is 30 coins. The 1802 half dime survival is something like that. “Coin Facts” says there are 35 survivors.
The 1803 Small Date half dime is of similar rarity. The difference is that is a variety, not a stand alone date.
Thanks
So there are around 75 1804 dimes in the world and nine of them end up in this furniture auction?
Most peculiar, Momma.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I recall the 3,060 figure is based on separate delivery records.
I have a 1996 Red Book on hand, which shows these half dime mintages:
1800 24,000
1800 LIBEKTY 16,000
1801 27,760
1802 3,060
The total for the last 3 rows is 46,820.
The 1803 Mint Report you linked shows:
1800 24,000
1801 33,910
1802 13,010
The total for 1801 and 1802 is 46,920.
So apparently the delivery numbers apportion the 33,910 into 16,000 1800 LIBEKTY and 17,910 1801 dated half dimes.
And the 13,010 is apportioned into about 9,950 1801 and 3,060 1802 dated half dimes.
Much appreciated!
Just passing along additional links to early mint reports in the event that might be of any interest.
Mint report of 1802 (for 1801) https://archive.org/details/MintReport1802
Mint Report of 1801 ( for 1800) https://archive.org/details/MintReport1801/mode/2up
Mint Director James Ross Snowden did report in his 1860 book The Mint Manual of Coins of All Nations the 1802 Half Dime as 13010 in a table of the "Number of Pieces Coined at the Mint of the United States." This is from the 1803 Mint Report, and I don't know exactly when or who determined the 3060 mintage of 1802 half dimes that has been used in recent years.
For 1804 dimes, the mintage of 8265, from a delivery in the second quarter of 1804, was also reported in Snowden's book.
In the 2015 VIG by Winston Zach, Louis Scuderi, and Michael Sherrill, they reported "Estimate known: 100-125" for both die marriages of 1804 dimes. They stated the JR-1, 13-star reverse as "slightly more available" than JR-2, 14-star reverse, without giving a more exact estimate (the 1984 EUSD Dime book states JR-1 as "about two-thirds of all 1804 dimes").
The "7-9%" that I stated in my earlier post was based on the percentage of the nine 1804 dime hoard to the VIG estimate of 100-125 extant. I have collected draped bust dimes for over 20 years, have all the dates and about half the die marriages, and I believe they did a lot of research for their rarity estimates, and I don't have reason to disagree with any of their estimates. It is an interesting hoard that no doubt took many years to assemble. Just one JR-2, 14-star reverse, and eight of the 13-star reverse were in the auction.
The 2012 HA coin is one I saw in the 1990's when the previous owner had it in an old ANACS Good-6 or possibly VG holder before it went to PCGS. As I recall it seemed an original coin that I graded VG obverse and AG reverse. Though the reverse is due to strike rather than wear. Seems it was nearly problem free though I notice a couple of marks on the central reverse in the photos. Can't recall how much impact that had in person or if they seemed minor.
Here is the 2012 PCGS Good-6
https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-dimes/1802-h10c-good-6-pcgs-v-1-lm-1-r5/a/1166-3107.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
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As far as price, Greysheet shows a Good bid of $90,000 and VG at 112k. Looking at the PCGS auction prices, most offered have problems and many appear to be net grades even when straight graded.
https://pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1802-ms/4268
To me this one that just sold at around 70k seems to be a bit on the low end for price unless it looks notably worse in person than the photos. It doesn't seem a really strong price based on others. But there is not a steady continuum of problem free grades available so it is a bit hard to judge the market from one coin. Wonder what the 2012 HA coin would bring now. I suspect higher than this coin. Possibly Greysheet Good bid is too high or this one was a deal or somewhere in between.
There was a pre-details graded PCGS VG-10 auctioned Jan 2023 for $120,000 that looks more like a Fine wear-wise perhaps netted down for some scratches. Also a pre-details graded PCGS VG-8 auctioned Feb 2014 for $117,500 that looks more like a Fine plus wear-wise and clearly was netted down for some marks. What appears to be a bargain is the Nov 2019 NGC AU-50 at $192,000 though I'm guessing there are some issues that kept it at that price.
Just noticed that this auction was advertised in the Greysheet so it did have some publicity. Not sure if advertised elsewhere.
Did not analyze the 1804 dimes. Anyone have further views on those prices or any other prices in the auction?
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For your reference- transcript of 1805 Report-- Snowden's likely primary source---original isn't readily available.
http://www.chicagocoinclub.org/lib/us/asp/cl03.finance/v2/n228.html
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Now that the auction is over, apparently I can not view the descriptions or any image larger than the thumbnail (front/obverse only).
What about the San Francisco Assay bar indicated that it was a "copy" ?
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I tried to go back to the auction to view them further back the description and pictures are very limited. What is most amazing is 9 1804 dimes in 1 auction & 1802 half dime. The coins are quite scarce and hardly ever found at a coin show, auction or where ever. So seeing them together is quite surprising. The consignor (probably dead) knew to hold on to them and maybe that got them in change a long time ago/ If coins could talk..... this would be a very cool story....
Why is the 1802 dime given such a high grade ? On the surface I would think AG details for an old cleaning 😉
I suppose rarities have different grading standards and the buyer will feel better after spending a hefty sum to acquire it.
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That "shock and awe" bid always works for me.
Yes, the word that I used in the initial post was "unusual". That's why I posted it.
I thought that it could be instructive and educational for many, especially with all of the useful contributions from members here. Thank you for your participation.
Too bad more members didn't download the larger pics and other information when they were available. I have tipped off the CU board to unusual offerings like this before but I don't check auction listings until the last minute, so there often isn't much time to act, if you want to. However, if this sale was advertised on the Greysheet, I suspect that some here knew about the sale but wanted to preserve their chances of as little competition as possible. I no longer subscribe to the Greysheet and am here to level the playing field a bit. If I'm not bidding in the auction, I'll tip off the board but if I'm bidding (usually only obsolete currency), I'm not telling anyone.
I suspect only one obverse die for the 1804s as the nine all appear to be from the same die, but hard to tell. Is this the case? How many reverses?
My assessment of the assay bar was NG, but it takes some expertise to determine this, so I'm presuming that the auctioneer got this from the consignor's description. And the consignor probably got this info from an expert who spotted it. The punches didn't match known genuine bars. Another unusual feature was that the serial number looked like it had been defaced and repunched. This made me think that it could be real but the color and fabric didn't seem to match other genuine bars.
Could have been more than one consignor but I suspect that all of the early material was from one source.
@sellitstore Yes there is one 1804 dime obverse die with the low 4. There are two reverse 1804 dime dies that are each major Redbook varieties, one with 13 stars and the other 14 stars. Of the nine 1804 dimes, only one had 14 stars and was details slab (assuming PCGS was correct, I did not see the reverse images).
@WinLoseWin A comparable 1804 dime PCGS VF35 sticker just sold Aug 18 at GC $27,562, probably better quality than the one in this auction that realized around $19,550. I hope some of the 1804 dimes sold directly to collectors, if so, they got good prices. There are quite a few capped bust dime collectors but not many who collect draped bust dimes. One other board member @Barry I think had a complete date set years ago.
2 reverses. See @Nysoto's post above:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13785894/#Comment_13785894
P.S. It is still possible to see the detailed photos.
I used my browser cache to find the 1802 half dime lot page,
and you can still navigate to the Next Lot or Prev Lot.
Here is the lot page for the first of the 1804 dimes:
https://dixon.crumptonauctions.com/auctions/6343/lot/867058-1804-10c-draped-bust-silver-dime-13-star-reverse-pcgs-ag03
Yes, that coin gets breaks. About 15 years ago I saw one in a VF-30 holder, which would have been the ideal grade for me. The price was $139,000. It made the grade except for a mark on the reverse. I thought that it had been another date, it would have been body bagged. Therefore, I passed. Later there was an indication that it sold for $139,000 in an auction, but I didn’t know if it was a buy in or an actual sale.
What a misguided attempt at restoration! It didn't make the pitting any better.
Maybe this coin? (Amato-107)
It has a dig under the leftmost star on the reverse.
It did not sell at Heritage 2006-8,
and then at DLRC 2007-04 it is shown as sold for $135,125.
Most of the top 1802 half dimes have marks in the fields and/or rim damage.
Breen graded them VF-EF but they are in AU slabs these days.
Thanks for looking it up, but the piece I saw was in an old green label holder.
There is only VF-30 in the population report, and it does have a leading zero in the serial number, so maybe it was reholdered?
But there is also a VF-35 in the pop report; maybe it upgraded.
The Valentine coin was in a VF-35 holder in 1999. Later it upgraded to EF-45 and then to AU-50.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/937249/1802-half-dime-provenance-top-9-specimens (my old thread from 2015)
In any event, it could be hard to remember what exactly a coin looked like from 15 years ago.
Although when considering an expensive coin like that, I'm sure you looked at it very carefully.
Excellent thread folks, thank you.