Grade opinions on this 1807 Draped Bust Half Dollar please

DNADave

I probably overpaid a little for this today but I like it a lot.

ThreeCentSilverFL

VF 20 - 25. I like these.

CharlotteDude

Looks like a pristine VF-35 to me, but it wouldn’t surprise me if I saw her in an XF-40 holder. She’s quite a lovely Sheila.

ChangeInHistory

Overall not a bad type coin. Being honest, the color on the obverse from B to Y in Liberty is a little off. The reverse looks like a possible retoned cleaning. Overall it's a nice looking coin.

logger7

At least VF30 all things considered.

johnny9434

I'm in the 35ish grade, fwiw, nine coin, I like
Any variety on this one, anyone?

Mr_Spud

My first impression was 25, but I’m comparing it to my 20 which sometimes I think is undergraded

MFeld

VF35

DNADave

@johnny9434 said:
I'm in the 35ish grade, fwiw, nine coin, I like
Any variety on this one, anyone?

I’m away from my Overton book but looking forward to checking that out.

I think its a 35 with shot at 40 based on coinfact images. The motto is strong and the shield lines are good. but there is some wear

Seems to me like wear is always inconsistent on these. Sometimes the reverse looks more worn and sometimes the obverse.

coinbuf

I would call it 30, congrats on your purchase.

BillJones

This coin is an EF. Many 1806 and all 1807 Draped Bust half dollars were shallow strikes. They are not as sharp as the pieces made at the beginning of the decade.

Having said that is has two toned look to it. I think that this was a result of dipping the piece and putting in an envelope when it was not quite dry. I don’t care for the look, but that’s just me. I like colors that are more even.

I’ll post pictures of an 1806 half tomorrow, which is graded AU-58 to show how these two dates were struck.

kaz

Iwas thinking 35 to 40. Pretty neat that it hasn't found its way into a plastic tomb (yet). I really like it!

Walkerguy21D

VF 35 for me as well.

lkenefic

I'm seeing VF35, maybe XF... I see a complete eye on the eagle.

Smudge

30.

jesbroken

I believe it would grade VF30 and to be an 0-103. Not my series, so both are guesses. Nice coin.
Jim

Walkerfan

I too am at 35.

It’s got an original look to it.

Cameo Circs are all the rage.

lkenefic

FWIW... here's my 1806 VF30... pardon the crumby pics. I'll let you decide which ones... it's all the same coin.

BigAl

Im in with the 30 club. Glad you like your newp!

TennesseeDave

XF-40, congrats on your purchase.

OldeTowneCoinShoppe

VF-20, possibly VF-25.

I believe these tend to get a little overgraded by the TPGs.

Walkerguy21D

@BillJones said:
This coin is an EF. Many 1806 and all 1807 Draped Bust half dollars were shallow strikes. They are not as sharp as the pieces made at the beginning of the decade.

Bill’s point reminded me when I purchased my (still) raw example ~16 years ago. Ed & Lance Hipps were always on my list of must-see dealers at bigger shows back then. They always had interesting coins at reasonable prices. Lance showed me an old Wayte Raymond album of bust halves they’d just purchased. I got to browse through it and select a draped bust in my price range.
This was priced as a “nice Fine”, which was quite reasonable even back then.
Later, since ANACS was set up and giving free opinions, I showed it to them. The grader studied the coin and said l bet this is a higher grade than you think; it was struck on a buckled die, and if submitted we’d probably grade it VF 25:

BillJones

This piece was graded AU-50 in a Paramount Auction in 1982. It easily has enough mint luster to qualify for that grade. Today it's in an NGC AU-58 holder.

My theory is that Robert Scot lowered the relief on the half dollar dies to prolong their useful life.

Nysoto

Scot lowered the relief of draped bust half dollars in mid-1805, and then again on the last two obverse dies in 1806 which carried over into the shallow strikes of 1807. There were no more full cuds on half dollars after late 1806, the reworked hub and the new frustum shape (truncated cone) working dies took care of the cud problem on half dollars. OP grade is XF for technical wear, TPG's probably 35 as they punish shallow strikes. My example of 1807 T-11 is an old holder NGC XF40, slightly sharper than OP coin.

My 1807 T-2, same as @Walkerguy21D, is VF25 in the opinion of PCGS. All T-2's have slightly oversized planchets, in later stages the obverse die sinks. They actually used this example in one of their publications, describing the difficulty of grading these:

Davidk7

XF40

TPRC

XF-40. Lots of detail in the clouds, and while the wings lack some detail, the originality bumps it back up to a 40 in my eyes.

DoubleEagle59

XF no brainer.

LanLord

@Nysoto said:
Scot lowered the relief of draped bust half dollars in mid-1805, and then again on the last two obverse dies in 1806 which carried over into the shallow strikes of 1807.

>

All T-2's have slightly oversized planchets, in later stages the obverse die sinks. They actually used this example in one of their publications, describing the difficulty of grading these:

About 25 years ago I started collecting early bust half dollars in an unmarked dansco album.
There were a couple half dollars that absolutely would never fit into an otherwise perfectly sized (for open collar bust half dollars) dansco page.

I gave up after a few tries of enlarging an opening port.

It drove me nuts (I've obviously never returned from that trip!).

pursuitofliberty

Really like that one. Nice surfaces, good color, well struck for the issue. Absolutely a great looking coin from the images.

I think out hosts would go 40. To me, 35 would also be acceptable, but any less would seem a crime.

golden

35 here.

braddick

@CharlotteDude said:
Looks like a pristine VF-35 to me, but it wouldn’t surprise me if I saw her in an XF-40 holder. She’s quite a lovely Sheila.

100%.

seatedlib3991

@Nysoto . I have never heard any of this information before. Does this mean there are suppose to be different grading standards for my 1807, 1806 no stem and my 1805 and any pre 1805 Half Dollars? James

Nysoto

@seatedlib3991 . I don't believe the grading standards need to be different for the half dollar hub changes, or any other denomination with multiple hubs such as 1794 cents. IMO PCGS has been the most consistent with grading over the last 25 years for circulated early half dollars. The strike is part of the grade. The master die and hub change information can be found in an article I wrote for the John Reich Journal in June 2007 (on NNP), and the article was referenced in Steve Tompkins Early United States Half Dollars Volume I 1794-1807.

@LanLord . The 1807 O.109 draped bust and 1807 O.113 capped bust small stars have slightly larger planchet diameters. I have five of the O.109/T-2, all large. Actually, the draped bust halves have slightly larger diameters than capped bust, comparing the two set on edge on a flat surface, the differences are apparent.

DNADave

I added a couple more pics to the op. After checking Overton I’m sure it’s O102.
Die chip on upper loop of the 8 and die crack at top of obverse.

Nysoto

@DNADave . The O.102 and O.103 are similar, with the same obverse die. The Steve Tompkins book goes into more detail on die states than Overton, and the die crack and chipping does happen on both DM's but more advanced on 103. The reverse dies are different, check very closely the four stars futhermost to the left (facing) alignment.

edit -
also the lettering in STATES position with the clouds.

jughead1893

35

DNADave

@Nysoto said:
@DNADave . The O.102 and O.103 are similar, with the same obverse die. The Steve Tompkins book goes into more detail on die states than Overton, and the die crack and chipping does happen on both DM's but more advanced on 103. The reverse dies are different, check very closely the four stars futhermost to the left (facing) alignment.

edit -
also the lettering in STATES position with the clouds.

Thank you.

Yes the lump to the left of the first S is there and the leaf relationship to the I makes it a 103.

Kliao

I would call it a 35. Very nice coin and congrats on the pickup.

rays

VF 35

jesbroken

@Nysoto said:
@DNADave . The O.102 and O.103 are similar, with the same obverse die. The Steve Tompkins book goes into more detail on die states than Overton, and the die crack and chipping does happen on both DM's but more advanced on 103. The reverse dies are different, check very closely the four stars futhermost to the left (facing) alignment.

edit -
also the lettering in STATES position with the clouds.

Thanks for the information.