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230th Anniversary Flowing Hair Silver Medal

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  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    The gold is a coin by all definitions. I haven't kept up but isn't it this year's entry in the annual Liberty series?

    No. The "annual" Liberty series is actually a bi-annual one. The last two entries featured a horse and a tree. Not a classic depiction of liberty from 1794.

    This is a special issue to commemorate the 230th anniversary of the nation's first silver dollar. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The gold is a coin. The silver is a medal. They are both clearly identified as such by the Mint. There really is nothing to debate with respect to that.

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Silver medal max mintage of 75,000

    230 of the silver COA’s will be signed by Ventris Gibson

  • JBKJBK Posts: 15,533 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmm. Maybe I'll have to buy one. 🤔

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    The gold is a coin by all definitions. I haven't kept up but isn't it this year's entry in the annual Liberty series?

    No. The Liberty series is released every other year. Last year was the tree. Then two years before was the horse. We should have a new gold liberty in 2025. This is just a celebration of 230 years.

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry @NJCoin , this response was at the bottom of pg 2 and I didn't see your reply on the top of pg 3 until after I responded. Oh well, we totally agree!!!!!

  • drfishdrfish Posts: 942 ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty sure the $100 gold Liberties started in 2015 and new ones have been released every two years

  • MetroDMetroD Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And, the 'crystal ball' award for today goes to @sfs2002usa. 🔮

    Back on 9/16/24, he was the first to suggest that the "230" privy medals could turn out to be a subset of the overall release.


    Link: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13791513/#Comment_13791513

  • Weather11amWeather11am Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭

    @olympicsos said:

    @1madman said:
    Silver medal max mintage of 75,000

    230 of the silver COA’s will be signed by Ventris Gibson

    1,794 of the medals will have the privy mark. Now I can sleep lol

    Where are you seeing this?

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2024 7:17AM

    @MetroD said:
    And, the 'crystal ball' award for today goes to @sfs2002usa. 🔮

    Back on 9/16/24, he was the first to suggest that the "230" privy medals could turn out to be a subset of the overall release.


    Link: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13791513/#Comment_13791513

    A VERY clever way to goose sales of an otherwise very overpriced product. I also find it hilarious that people who were pooping all over the privy mark will now be desperately chasing it.

    Finally, is the Mint going to sell it on a no-returns basis, or allow people to play the lottery risk free, and return medals that don't have privy marks? If not, of course we will now all be in, and slamming the website to get as many as we can. 75K will certainly sell out as quickly as the website can process orders, because 1,794 of anything selling for $104 will be a lucrative flip.

    In fact, if they don't get in front of this, almost as soon as the geniuses at the Mint get done congratulating themselves for coming up with a scheme to push 75K ounces of silver out the door in an hour or two for $7.8 million, they will be wondering why the return center is dealing with 40,000 returns, each containing a single coin that will sit in a warehouse for years until the 2029 Customer Appreciation Sale.

  • Weather11amWeather11am Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭

    I see now!

  • MartinMartin Posts: 962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Games, games, games.

    Martin

  • FrankHFrankH Posts: 945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not only is gold..... all wrong ................for that design, but a denomination of ...one dollar.... for the gold is just insult to injury.
    :s

  • smuglrsmuglr Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:
    Silver medal max mintage of 75,000

    230 of the silver COA’s will be signed by Ventris Gibson

    230 of the 1794 privy markedsilver COAs will be signed.

  • GiveMeProofGiveMeProof Posts: 618 ✭✭✭✭

    Scary part is if this is successful will they start doing this with ALL silver medals? Not getting started. I'm out.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am glad I own this and will not be fooling with this foolishness.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    I am glad I own this and will not be fooling with this foolishness.

    Unfortunately that’s the wrong year coin, so you’re gonna need to buy the current stuff to be in the anniversary party with the cool kids. :)

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:

    @BillJones said:
    I am glad I own this and will not be fooling with this foolishness.

    Unfortunately that’s the wrong year coin, so you’re gonna need to buy the current stuff to be in the anniversary party with the cool kids. :)


    I was informed of that fact by @MsMorrisine last week.

    It's year 1794.......


    Check this Liberty lady out.................



    MS64+

    PCGS Price Guide: $185,000


    PCGS Link

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:

    @BillJones said:
    I am glad I own this and will not be fooling with this foolishness.

    Unfortunately that’s the wrong year coin, so you’re gonna need to buy the current stuff to be in the anniversary party with the cool kids. :)

    I am a type collector. The design is what matters to me.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • sfs2002usasfs2002usa Posts: 846 ✭✭✭

    Folks - Naysayers - Numismatic Countrymen - You Don't say !
    US Mint - I Do Say !
    Now off to the waiting room . . .

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    not in on this one, but i'd hope for a privvy mark thinking in 250 years enough have disappeared to make those remaining worth more than those without

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All the Vault and Witter players should be doing backflips on all these Mint privy and signing lottos.

    And your only paying market price. Such a deal.

  • vulcanizevulcanize Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was initially very gung-ho about this release but on more "deep reflection", will sit this one out. o:)

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1794 Flowing Hair Tribute Proof from the National Collector's Mint.


    proof clad in 71 mg .999 Pure Silver

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭

    71 mg of .999 Pure Silver? 0.02 troy ounces! Almost 65 cents worth of silver for $20. :)

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what a bunch of gimmicky crap or is this the future and I'm a moron? that's what I said about BTC 10 years ago, and I've been an idiot many other times too

  • olympicsosolympicsos Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭

    Still no official US Mint image for the gold coin, I wonder if they are trying to prevent any outrage about missing mottos?

  • pf70collectorpf70collector Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭

    Only 1794 with privy mark.I will buy one hoping to get those.

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2024 12:54PM

    @olympicsos said:
    Still no official US Mint image for the gold coin, I wonder if they are trying to prevent any outrage about missing mottos?

    No. They are just not in a rush, since it's still more than a month away. I think I saw a website say 17,500, which to me is a typo. 12.5K is what they did for the last American Liberty gold coin. I'd be surprised if they did anything different with this, given the premium they are surely going to be seeking.

    Nothing at all to do with anything anyone might not like about the coin. If anything, possibly reflective of internal deliberations they are having regarding how high they could push the mintage while still maintaining their premium. If they also do 1794 privys with these, they might think they can push the mintage quite high, given what the gold AGEs with the 75th anniversary privy go for.

    This would be incorrect, if you assume they will be charging around a $1,000 premium to what gold is worth at release, and a $20K value for a gold coin with a 230 privy mark. Unlike the silver medal, where the secondary market value of a medal with a 1794 mintage will likely be a very high multiple of the $104 release price (probably 20-30x), it reasonable to assume these would only produce a 5.5x multiplier to the price charged by the Mint.

    That would imply lottery purchaser demand for around 9K at $3600, which is less than the 12.5K of similar coins they sell without a gimmick. So, hopefully, they will either avoid privy mark gimmicks altogether with this one, or, if they do, not get crazy with the maximum mintage.

    If they decide, for example, to try to push the mintage to 25K with a 7% chance for people to make a 5x score, they will have another 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollar situation on their hands.

    Better to just leave the mintage at 12.5K, and let the people who want a limited edition one off gold tribute to the 1794 Silver Dollar get one for around $3600. If they try to create the same frenzy with these that they are with the silver medals, at 35 times the price with a tiny fraction of the upside, the box breakers will shun them. As will the collectors, who will refuse to pay a $1,000 premium for an issue with a 25K maximum mintage.

  • pf70collectorpf70collector Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2024 2:19PM

    Gold UHR 100K mintage. Very popular currently only what $700 premium over spot. Collectors I believe will pay the $1K premium for this 1794 Liberty Gold. Overseas buyers may also be interested. Not me because I am selling off my modern coin collection. Not adding to it.

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2024 3:06PM

    @pf70collector said:
    Gold UHR 100K mintage. Very popular currently only what $700 premium over spot. Collectors I believe will pay the $1K premium for this 1794 Liberty Gold. Overseas buyers may also be interested. Not me because I am selling off my modern coin collection. Not adding to it.

    The gold UHR was a very special offering, the first of its kind, 15 years ago. At a small fraction of the premiums they now charge, when gold was trading at a tiny fraction of what it is trading at today. Totally apples and oranges.

    They sold 100K at a $300 premium to $900 gold. Gold is 3x the price, the premium is 3x as high, and they sell well fewer than 1/3 of 100K of any gold coin they currently offer.

    I agree collectors will pay the $1K premium. So long as they keep the mintage to 12,500 or less. Just like the American Liberty coins. If they try to get even more greedy, and push the mintage significantly higher, people just won't be interested. Pointing to 15 years ago, when the Mint sold 100K of something way more identifiable to the average collector, with a fancy box, book, etc., at a tiny fraction of the current offering price, is flat out irrelevant.

    All I'm trying to say is that they faced the exact same situation with 75K silver medals. They fixed that by turning it into a lottery. And I'm saying they can't do the same thing with these, because the pricing and premium associated with 1794 special gold coins just won't support a mintage above the ~12.5K they are likely already looking at.

    Just watch -- if the mintage is significantly above 12.5K, with or without a lottery, they won't sell out. Not because a gold coin with a 1794 mintage won't be worth around $20K, because it will be.

    But because a gold coin with a 20K+ mintage will be worth far less than the $3600 or so they will be asking for it. Given that, the only people interested will be the lottery players, and even they won't be that interested in paying $3600 for a 7% chance at a $20K score, with a 93% chance at a $2600 gold coin.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what a bunch of gimmicky crap or is this the future and I'm a moron? that's what I said about BTC 10 years ago, and I've been an idiot many other times too

    POTD!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • mlittlemlittle Posts: 140 ✭✭✭

    What is BTC and POTD?

  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mlittle said:
    What is BTC and POTD?

    POTD=Post Of The Day

    Many happy BST transactions
  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mlittle said:
    What is BTC and POTD?

    BitCoin and Path of the Damned

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mintage limit of 17,500 for the gold

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2024 6:33AM

    @1madman said:
    Mintage limit of 17,500 for the gold

    That's high for what they are going to be charging. Unless they stick a lottery ticket in it, they can keep it.

    The original coin wasn't gold in the first place. I honestly can't see paying about $3,600 for one of only 17.5K modern gold tributes to it.

    12.5K wouldn't have been a slam dunk, based on the fact that the 2023 American Liberty eventually sold out, but not right away. Even though it now goes for a premium.

    Bumping up that mintage by close to 50%, on top of the ever increasing price of gold, simply does not make this a guaranteed winner. But leave it to the Mint to keep pushing until things break. Couldn't leave well enough alone at 12.5K. Fine. Now they have an extra few to sell, because I won't be playing at 17.5K.

  • GiveMeProofGiveMeProof Posts: 618 ✭✭✭✭

    As far as the silver medal goes, first fail? It's a medal. If you're not lucky enough to get a privy, you'll end up with a piece that's worth as much as every other medal... SPOT.

    Something we haven't had for a while is a flippers playground. I can see Ebay already. What do you think? 5X? 10X with a sig? I'd rather buy a $1B Power Ball ticket than buy something I don't even like.

    If YOU don't get one with a privy will you be happy? If so I'm happy for you. Enjoy your medal. But I don't think most people would because this medal was being slammed before the limited privy. More so WITH a privy.

    I'll be sitting this one out as well as any other "gimmick" medals they may come out with just to increase sales.

    My humble opinion. Have at me. :)

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GiveMeProof said:
    As far as the silver medal goes, first fail? It's a medal. If you're not lucky enough to get a privy, you'll end up with a piece that's worth as much as every other medal... SPOT.

    Something we haven't had for a while is a flippers playground. I can see Ebay already. What do you think? 5X? 10X with a sig? I'd rather buy a $1B Power Ball ticket than buy something I don't even like.

    If YOU don't get one with a privy will you be happy? If so I'm happy for you. Enjoy your medal. But I don't think most people would because this medal was being slammed before the limited privy. More so WITH a privy.

    I'll be sitting this one out as well as any other "gimmick" medals they may come out with just to increase sales.

    My humble opinion. Have at me. :)

    Okay. It's still an official US Mint product. Not a silver round from Silvertowne. I agree that $104 is aggressive for an ounce of silver with a mintage of 75K, but, no, they will be worth far more than spot in the secondary market. Especially if they end up taking returns, and 40K of them are sitting in a warehouse rather than being offered on eBay.

  • GiveMeProofGiveMeProof Posts: 618 ✭✭✭✭

    @NJCoin said:

    @GiveMeProof said:
    As far as the silver medal goes, first fail? It's a medal. If you're not lucky enough to get a privy, you'll end up with a piece that's worth as much as every other medal... SPOT.

    Something we haven't had for a while is a flippers playground. I can see Ebay already. What do you think? 5X? 10X with a sig? I'd rather buy a $1B Power Ball ticket than buy something I don't even like.

    If YOU don't get one with a privy will you be happy? If so I'm happy for you. Enjoy your medal. But I don't think most people would because this medal was being slammed before the limited privy. More so WITH a privy.

    I'll be sitting this one out as well as any other "gimmick" medals they may come out with just to increase sales.

    My humble opinion. Have at me. :)

    Okay. It's still an official US Mint product. Not a silver round from Silvertowne. I agree that $104 is aggressive for an ounce of silver with a mintage of 75K, but, no, they will be worth far more than spot in the secondary market. Especially if they end up taking returns, and 40K of them are sitting in a warehouse rather than being offered on eBay.

    Thanks for responding @NJCoin. As far as returns go, it seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario for The Mint. Yeah you could be right about the secondary market. I still have a week to reconsider. I will be watching this thread.

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2024 7:33AM

    @GiveMeProof said:

    @NJCoin said:

    @GiveMeProof said:
    As far as the silver medal goes, first fail? It's a medal. If you're not lucky enough to get a privy, you'll end up with a piece that's worth as much as every other medal... SPOT.

    Something we haven't had for a while is a flippers playground. I can see Ebay already. What do you think? 5X? 10X with a sig? I'd rather buy a $1B Power Ball ticket than buy something I don't even like.

    If YOU don't get one with a privy will you be happy? If so I'm happy for you. Enjoy your medal. But I don't think most people would because this medal was being slammed before the limited privy. More so WITH a privy.

    I'll be sitting this one out as well as any other "gimmick" medals they may come out with just to increase sales.

    My humble opinion. Have at me. :)

    Okay. It's still an official US Mint product. Not a silver round from Silvertowne. I agree that $104 is aggressive for an ounce of silver with a mintage of 75K, but, no, they will be worth far more than spot in the secondary market. Especially if they end up taking returns, and 40K of them are sitting in a warehouse rather than being offered on eBay.

    Thanks for responding @NJCoin. As far as returns go, it seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario for The Mint. Yeah you could be right about the secondary market. I still have a week to reconsider. I will be watching this thread.

    Thanks for the kind words! As far as the Mint being damned if it does and damned if it doesn't, I respectfully disagree.

    The whole point behind coming up with the gimmick was to actually sell 75K. Not sell them and then have 30-40K come right back, for no reason other than that they aren't one of the special 1794. As I said before, if all they wanted to do was sell 1794 with a privy mark, they could have created a separate product for that, which would still have been a lottery, and eliminate returns from the equation.

    Since they would still easily sell 75K without taking returns, because they lottery idea was brilliant, there is no reason to blow that up, and undermine the reason behind the lottery in the first place, by taking returns.

    And then, as an added bonus, secondary market prices will be depressed for those who just want to pick up a plain 'ole medal without a privy, because 40K will be floating around that otherwise would never have been sold in the first place. But that's not a damned if they don't situation. That's nothing more than a natural result of moving 75K units that would never have otherwise been moved, because there is no organic demand for 75K of them at $104.

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    LCR Coin is locked and loaded.




    Read the last line.



    LCR Coin Link

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2024 5:24PM

    @Goldbully said:
    LCR Coin is locked and loaded.




    Read the last line.



    LCR Coin Link

    They sure are, with 17.5K of them soon to be floating around. Very optimistic, and I hope for their sake they sell as many as they can as fast as they can.

    Because once these hit the market and don't instantly sell out, no one is going to be getting a $2700 premium above an already seriously inflated issue price for an Advance Release PR70. Other than the TV guys selling to the dopes who buy from TV.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,972 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never underestimate the number of suckers that are born every minute.
    These silver medals with privies are starting to smell a little like outhouses, and these flowing hair gold pre-sales remind me a little of the NFT craze.
    Plenty of wise sayings to reflect on what hype and greed can do.

  • LiquidatedLiquidated Posts: 251 ✭✭✭

    Presale offers basically on top of upcoming offering price.

  • coinercoiner Posts: 576 ✭✭✭✭

    I thought the Flowing hair GOLD werent available in the (ABPP) program? Why is there "Advance Release" offerings?

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coiner said:
    I thought the Flowing hair GOLD werent available in the (ABPP) program? Why is there "Advance Release" offerings?

    Why did you think that?

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Liquidated said:
    Presale offers basically on top of upcoming offering price.

    Yeah, they're just getting what they can, while they can. Playing off the frenzy that is going to make them difficult to impossible to get directly from the Mint on 10/15.

    The reality, though, for anyone paying attention who understands how this is going to work, is that literally thousands are going to be returned to the Mint by the general public when they don't have privy marks.

    And thousands more are going to be dumped on the market by the dealers obtaining them through the Advance Release and bulk purchase program, since there is not going to be organic demand for 75K of them at $104, $109, $129, or anything close.

    Just have to let the early birds do what early birds do, and then allow the dust to settle. These very dealers will be selling the medals way below their cost. Which will be fine, because they will also be selling the ones with the privy marks, that they will also be buying directly from the Mint for $104, less whatever bulk discount they receive, for several thousand dollars each.

    Windfall for the dealers. Screw job for the rest of us.

  • coinercoiner Posts: 576 ✭✭✭✭

    Posted on a Numismatic Blog site , following USM updates for the 2024 Flowing Hair Gold - however, this post was dated Sept 16th; obviously not confirmed if anything has changed:

    "There is said to be no presales for ABPP, or Numismatic Bulk programs, which makes this release that much tougher to get. The Retail Price has increased due to the large spike in recent gold prices."

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