230th Anniversary Flowing Hair Silver Medal
sfs2002usa
Posts: 854 ✭✭✭
Photogrraph is up - posting just in case you haven't seen it yet
Looks very cool !
6
sfs2002usa
Posts: 854 ✭✭✭
Comments
Not a photo. Artist's rendering. Sometimes the finish looks very different.
Hm, they decided to go forward with that? I thought they canceled it.
I don’t like it very much, as I like my coins to have some character and not be indistinguishable from each other. I’m glad they’re minting something with Liberty on it, though.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
Don’t see this one being a huge hit with the average Mint buyer.
I wish they had tried for more authenticity. 1794/95 originals look really cool, but making it "perfect" is the wrong approach IMO. Engrave the dies using the same techniques used in 1794. Prepare planchets the old way, and file them - with a file - if they're too heavy. Use a higher purity silver plug if need be. And use a screw press.
Maybe. People were really looking forward to it, and resurrecting classic representations of Liberty has been very popular. That said, the recent price increase has really turned a lot of people off, and medals are always less popular than coins, so you might be correct.
I'm on the fence myself. I was looking forward to the release since it was announced, but I am not going to pay the premium for the gold, and I don't want to reward the Mint for being a pig by charging $105 for an ounce of silver with no announced maximum mintage.
If the mintage is low enough I'll probably bite the bullet, given how unique the offering is. If it's in the hundreds of thousands, or unlimited, I'll probably control myself and pass.
I will take one and pass it down to the next generations with an education on the significance of the silver dollar.
And then I will lament that it will remain the nicest silver round I will ever have bought at three times spot.
Dan Carr produced something similar.
https://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-6-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1.aspx
Looks a lot like the liberty first spouse’s. Artwork. Not gawd awful but not that impressive either. I liked the idea but not how it is going to turn out
Martin
I see two problems (aside from possible pricing issues) with these.
The first and more minor problem is that the pieces are simply too perfect with their execution. That isn't to say the "artwork" is perfect, but rather the execution is too modern for the design. This likely won't hurt sales that much for the larger pool of collectors or buyers. The second issue, and I believe it could be a killer issue for both original sales and later for resale liquidity and value, is that these are not monetized. They are medals and medals typically don't do well. If they had been monetized at one dollar for the silver to pair with the gold then they would sell many, many more pieces that would hold a better premium down the road.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I see an overpriced poor seller. If they wanted sales they should have made it a one dollar NCLT coin.
They did not release the gold coin images yet. I wonder if there are legal difficulties because of the lack of mottos. Then again, if they tried to put in god we trust or e pluribus unum on the edges or omit them on a numismatic coin it might be politically easier than a circulating coin.
The issue is needing Congressional approval. They just don't do that anymore, other than for the commemoratives. They have authority to issue gold coins, so they do. And to issue silver medals. So they do.
Reduced sales are an issue with every silver medal they release. This is what Congress wanted, and what it has. They could have given the Mint the authority to issue silver coins without Congressional approval, as with gold coins.
Congress chose to withhold that authorization. Reduced sales are the result. They apparently do not care.
I don't think the congresscritters really thought it out like that. The sponsors of whatever bill that authorized the striking of gold bullion coins included a provision that the Treasury could determine the designs. The bill authorizing silver bullion coins didn't have the same language.
I don't think anyone "chose" to withhold authorization. It just wasn't in the bill that was voted on and passed.
People are free to try to get a bill proposed to change that.
What people were looking forward to it? Hardcore collectors on this forum? That’s a very small minority of the US Mint’s customers. This is not a well known design to casual US Mint purchasers and lacks the broad artistic appeal of a Morgan, Merc or Walker.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. These are not bullion, and ASEs are coins. These sell at huge premiums to bullion value.
They literally passed legislation that allows the Mint to make collector gold coins without specific Congressional authorization, and to make silver medals, but not coins. The fact that the authority was granted for gold, but not silver, in the same legislation, literally means the authority to issue silver coins was withheld. By specific choice. Not accidental omission.
This Flowing Hair issue is no different from the Liberty and Britannia issue, or the American Liberty series. Gold pieces are coins, silver are medals. Same design, same series. Not bullion. They literally chose to allow gold coins, but not silver.
No one is proposing a bill to change anything. People who like them buy them. People who are hung up by the fact that they are not monetized do not.
The fact that $30 worth of silver selling for $100 does not have a $1 denomination on it should not make a difference to anyone, but it does. The US Treasury suffers as a result.
"People" aren't going to do anything about it. If someone in charge at the Mint wants to wake up and let Congress know how much money they are leaving on the table by not monetizing these silver rounds, they are free to do so. Otherwise, it is what it is.
Not limited to this forum. The very same people who were jazzed in 2021 over the reissue of Morgan and Peace Dollars were looking forward to the opportunity to buy a copy of the first silver dollar ever issued by the US, even if it is not as universally revered as the far more widely available and collected Morgan and Peace Dollars. That's who.
You'll see. They will still sell a ton of them. Even at $105 a pop. Even though they are not coins. And even though they lack the broad artistic appeal of Morgan or Peace Dollars. They would have sold even more at $80.
Do you honestly think this is going to be a niche product with a mintage of less than 50K?
While far better than the cartoon artistry, I still think it poorly depicted. I like Dan's Eagle and Mint's Liberty(barely due to eye) Just to compare. Hopefully, they will improve before cutting the dies. JMO
Jim
EDITED to say, after viewing them together, I don't care for either.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I have a real one in EF. That’s good enough for me. Pass.
Given my luck with the mint’s quality control, they would send me one with adjustment marks.
You might be correct, but I don't think so. If you can refer me to the specific legislation I'll be happy to read it.
It has always been my understanding that the one-off gold coins in varying designs (Liberty, Mayflower, etc.) have been minted under the authority given to the Treasury to mint gold bullion coins. The finish, price, and distribution are at their discretion. The coins are always in a bullion format (one ounce, marked with weight and purity).
This is in contrast to gold coins minted under commemorate coin legislation (traditional denomination and size, and originally in traditional fineness).
With all due respect, you are splitting hairs. Bullion format or not, they are not bullion coins.
The fact that they have authority to mint gold coins, but not silver, is the issue. It's not an accident. Or a mistake.
It's intentional. For what reason, I cannot imagine, since they are allowed to make the exact same coins, but as medals, with significantly lower sales. Which means significantly less revenue for the US Treasury.
For no apparent purpose. Period. They are allowed to make the coins, but are not allowed to monetize them. But only the silver ones. They make both AGEs and ASEs. They are both legal tender. This distinction with other silver issues benefits no one. Least of all, them.
The point being, they are struck under the legislation that authorized gold bullion coins.
The legislation that authorized silver bullion coins did not include that sort of latitude.
I am just speculating, although it may be based on a smattering of details in my memory bank, buyt everyone knew the silver bullion coins would be a one ounce silver dollar, so that's what the enabling legislation called for.
In the case of gold bullion coins, they felt that the Treasury needed mote leeway in terms of size and denomination.
Anyway, I'm not sure it matters in the end, but I don't share your cynicism about how we got here.
Fair enough. And, it doesn't really matter. It is an issue, they could fix it, and they choose not to. Again, it is what it is.
I honestly do not care whether or not my $100 silver round from the US Mint is $1 legal tender. Others do, and it costs them millions of dollars in lost profit.
Every. Single. Time. This isn't world peace. Or even securing the southern border. The fact that they don't fix it is a disgrace. As is selling 100K fewer Morgan and Peace Dollars than they could have, because they just had to go for that additional $15.
Overpriced and it's a medal and not a coin. The Mint "strikes" again.
The Mint "strikes" again.
That could be their new logo!!!
I want one to use as a pocket piece,
The fact that it's a medal, not a coin, makes harder for dealers to resell because of the sales tax situation. In Florida, there is no sales tax on U,S. coins, but there is on medals unless you have an invoice of $500 or more.
There was a Ben Franklin medal years ago which had the same problem.
I do not think anyone thought of allowing broad authority for silver coins simply because it was not on anyone's minds. Unless that is we have proof that someone did try to do it and it was shot down. Most coin legislation passes unanimously anyways now
The legislation giving broad authority to mint gold coins gives broad authority to mint 24k gold coins and not 22k gold coins. There is broad authority for platinum coins too. When the silver bullion program was passed in 1985, they did not have the same foresight that existed later. I bet you if someone wanted to authorize a new silver bullion program, that program would have broad authority. But since silver eagles have always been .999 fine unlike gold, there is no legislative impetus.
I could be wrong, but I believe that an official release date (10/15/24) is new information:
Source: https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/2024/
Question. Because I know someone knows this off the top of their head.
The gold version is it basically the same design. Is it 1oz gold and what denomination is it?
Thanks in advance
Martin
It is a 1.0 oz., 24-karat, gold coin in high relief.
The $1 denomination will be incused on the edge of the coin.
Reference #1
Reference #2
My big curiosity is will there be outrage over missing mottos?
@MetroD
Another big thank you
Martin
I read somewhere the denomination and motto will be on the edge. I assume they also have to put the weight and fineness.
I do NOT know all of the applicable 'rules/requirements' for inscriptions.
That said, the original plan was for "minimal inscriptions" on the gold coin (i.e., no weight, or fineness).
Source: https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/u-s-mint-plans-to-resurrect-1794-dollar-designs
Further, a recent article suggested the following incused edge:
https://www.collectpure.com/blog/2024-us-mint-product-release-details-230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-gold
That's the article I read, but this jumped out at me:
The 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair Gold Coin (24YG) will feature the original 1794 Flowing Hair Design with a lettered edge that includes the face value and motto.
@treybenedict
You recently authored an article about the upcoming 'Flowing Hair Gold Coin'.
Link: https://www.collectpure.com/blog/2024-us-mint-product-release-details-230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-gold
In this article, you included some images. You also stated the following:
"The 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair Gold Coin (24YG) will feature the original 1794 Flowing Hair Design with a lettered edge that includes the face value and motto." (Bold added for emphasis.)
I have a couple of questions about your article. Hopefully, you do not mind if I ask them here.
To the best of your knowledge, are the images in your article, specifically the inscriptions and infused edge, still accurate?
What, specifically, is the "motto" on the lettered edge depicted in your article?
Edited.
From Image library on Mint Website...
eBay primed and loaded.......................
eBay Link
How does the seller have "5 available"? Or 10, or 20, or ..... Is that the HHL?
Well, just Love coins, period.
I'm with you, I'll look for the real one instead
Big fat pass
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Source: https://catalog.usmint.gov/230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-silver-medal-24YH.html
Thanks for the answer says lazy me! I guess that I will get one, barely borders on interesting. What would be the price point for opting out?
Well, just Love coins, period.
For me, personally, it is TBD.
Like others have stated, and have stated more eloquently, my willingness to spend $104, or more if slabbed, on a keeper for myself will depend on the mintage level, if one exists.
I will get one. It is great to see the US Mint honor the 230th anniversary of the first US dollar.
I heard it will be 75K. A lot for a medal, but not a lot for a historic reproduction like this. It very well might sell out.
Is it just me, or did something happen with the fonts and formatting here? Spacing is off, and the font seems too small.
Hey MetroD,
From my knowledge, the coin will be an infused edge with inscriptions of the face value and the "in god we trust" motto.
This is likely subject to change and hence why I will update the article as more time goes on.
I think this coin will do quite well as it has been very popular as of recent conversations.
@treybenedict
I don’t see much aftermarket with 3k+ price tag. I think they will sell quite a few. Probably more than long term demand. I’m on the fence about one but the price above spot has me not that excited
Martin
Down the line I could see it becoming around the 2023 HR level. Which has also drastically increased in price despite high spot.
Pass.
@treybenedict,
Thanks for the response. I appreciate your time.
Looking forward to your updates.