1909 cent reverse dies Shallow N & Deep N Plain , VDB , S & P

ifthevamzarockin

Repost with additional info and the prior thread went OT.
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I just wanted to post some of my observations & opinions. This is just my 2 cents.
Many people would say that's all my opinions are worth.
Please be advised my crystal ball and my time machine are both broken and I can't go back to 1909 to say any of this is fact.
I have looked at many online images over the last 6 months but clearly I have not seen every 1909 cent ever minted.

I left the full coin photos size large so if you right click and open in a new tab you should be able to get a good look.

There appears to be 2 different main reverse designs used in 1909 and some had a VDB added.
The two designs have a slightly different N in United, one has shallow cut valleys and one has a deeper cut valley.
The deeper cut N design is not just the N in United you can see slight changes with all the lettering in USA.
The height of the letters and placement of the VDB and dots can be in different places for Type 1 & 2.
There are several reasons they may have changed the design but I was not there so I can't tell you why.
For sake of this discussion I have decided to name them Type 1 and Type 2.
The shallow N is the Type 1 reverse and the deep N is the Type 2 reverse.

The usage of the reverse dies appears to be as listed
1909 Proof Type 1 only
1909 VBD Proof Type 1 only
1909 S VDB Type 1 only
1909 S Type 1 & Type 2
1909 P VDB Type 1 & Type 2
1909 P Type 1 & Type 2
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1909 Proof

1909 VDB Proof

1909 S VDB

1909 S Type 1

1909 S Type 2

1909 P VDB Type 1

1909 P VDB Type 2

1909 P Type 1

1909 P Type 2

It would appear that the proof dies and the Type 1 reverse were the first dies/design produced.
The VDB was the first design but because of public outcry it was removed shortly after this issue debuted.
The VDB reverse can be found with both Type 1 & Type 2 design so it would seem the change came early in production.
It would appear the VDB Type 1 reverse dies would have been the first design to be sent to San Francisco.
Good chance they got dies early in production and the Type 2 reverse may not have even been made yet.
If there were only 4 obverse dies for the S VDB the amount of reverse dies needed would not be a large number.
Good chance the small mintage of 484,000 could have been produced fairly quick.
The combination of those factors may explain why the S VDB is a Type 1 reverse only.
If you have a 1909 S VDB with a Type 2 reverse there is a good chance it is a counterfeit or alteration and needs to be graded.
The Type 1 reverse on the S VDB should not be used as the main diagnostic feature.
All other known diagnostics should be checked such as mint mark position, position of the VDB etc.
It can be hard to authenticate a 1909 S VDB from poor online images, the Type 1 reverse is fairly easy to spot.
A genuine Type 1 P VDB could have an added mint mark or a Type 1 S could have an added VDB.

If you have a 1909 S VDB that the mint mark position doesn't match one of the 4 known positions there is a very remote chance you have made a discovery but TPG authentication would be a must. There is a 99% chance you have a problem.

If you have a 1909 S VDB with a Type 2 reverse there is a very remote chance you have made a discovery but TPG authentication would be a must. There is a 99% chance you have a problem.

I think I found photos in CoinFacts for the 4 different positions. ( Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. )

Die #1

Die #2

Die #3

Die #4

There is a P mint VDB that matches very well to the S VDB.
An alteration could have an added S mint mark.
P Mint VDB

There are also S mint no VDB that could line up close to one of the 4 known positions.
An alteration could have an added VDB.
S Mint no VDB

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I did this thread once before and some additional information was posted.
Another member @MarkW63 posted about the placement of the VDB and how it can be checked by drawing a line from the dot to the wheat stalk. Use the left side of the V and the valley of the V as a guide.
S VDB Reverse

Another member @burfle23 posted an image in a thread and this was part of it.
Apparently "coppercoins" has already done some research about the N.

I also found the average die life at the San Francisco mint for 1909 cents. Source US Mint/NNP
The numbers would suggest that at least 4 reverse dies were used with the 4 known SVDB obverse dies.
I was not able to find an exact number for reverse VDB dies used for the year.
Obverse 131093 coins (average die life)
Reverse 97106 coins (average die life)

CaptHenway

Thank you. This is very useful information that I would have liked to have had back when I was Authenticating at ANACS.

CaptHenway

FWIW, we saw very few added V.D.B.’s onto genuine 1909-S’s.

Manifest_Destiny

Top notch research!

Old_Collector

Thanks for the great discussion.
I checked my 1909-S and 1909-S/S and the former is a Type 1 and the latter a Type 2, so very interesting!

WaterSport

And while your checking your 1909 Cents , you can get more info here on WHY there are shallow and deep N's as well as the discovery of a class 3 doubled die: https://amazon.com/Rabbit-Hole-1909-Lincoln-Wheat/dp/B0CF4FNFZW

And here are the 73 varieties that have the shallow N, but this list does not include the 1909 S. Those are separate : http:/varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/DDR%201909.htm

Old_Collector

@WaterSport Hey thanks, that is very interesting. For 1909, looking at all of my coins with that VV chart, I identified all four varieties in my coins.
TY 1 1909-S V.D.B.
TY 2 1909 V.D.B. FS-1101, 1909 V.D.B.
TY 3 1909-S/Hor S
TY 4 1909, 1909-S
I'll check out that linked book as I am primarily a Lincoln collector.

CRHer700

Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

CRHer700

Here is a link to the awful thread that precede this one. Just so posterity knows what we're talking about.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1068311/x
And here is another that was generously provided by @ifthevamzarockin :
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1099561/1909-s-cent-with-v-d-b-is-a-variety
And here is the third installment of the destruction, fresh today:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1105596/ruined-by-mr1931s-wont-make-this-mistake-again/

Old_Collector

@CRHer700 said:
Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

Just looked at my pictures (I image all my coins) and nope, both 1910 and 1910S are Type 2, I didn't see any mention of a Type 1 reverse after 1909 on VV, is that an "error" that is known?

WaterSport

@CRHer700 said:
Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

Here ya go: varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/DDR%201910.htm

CRHer700

@WaterSport said:

@CRHer700 said:
Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

Here ya go: varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/DDR%201910.htm

So a 1910 with T1 reverse is proven to exist. Let's see if we can find any 1910-S or newer cents that have it. We may be the discoverers of some major varieties.

robec

@CRHer700 said:

@WaterSport said:

@CRHer700 said:
Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

Here ya go: varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/DDR%201910.htm

So a 1910 with T1 reverse is proven to exist. Let's see if we can find any 1910-S or newer cents that have it. We may be the discoverers of some major varieties.

Where is it proven that a 1910 with T1 reverse exists? VV doesn’t show one, in fact it shows only the 1909 comes with it.

CRHer700

@robec said:

@CRHer700 said:

@WaterSport said:

@CRHer700 said:
Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

Here ya go: varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/DDR%201910.htm

So a 1910 with T1 reverse is proven to exist. Let's see if we can find any 1910-S or newer cents that have it. We may be the discoverers of some major varieties.

Where is it proven that a 1910 with T1 reverse exists? VV doesn’t show one, in fact it shows only the 1909 comes with it.

Under the link to the 1910 DDR, the photos show a shallow N or type one reverse. I did see that in their reverse varieties section, it does not show a 1910 with type one, but the pictures of the DDR prove otherwise.
Here is a link to that specific page: http://www.varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1910PDDR001.htm

It actually states that it is a deep N over shallow N reverse, but a shallow N is seen.

robec

@CRHer700 said:

@robec said:

@CRHer700 said:

@WaterSport said:

@CRHer700 said:
Have you studied any 1910s to see if any of them have a type one reverse?

Here ya go: varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/DDR%201910.htm

So a 1910 with T1 reverse is proven to exist. Let's see if we can find any 1910-S or newer cents that have it. We may be the discoverers of some major varieties.

Where is it proven that a 1910 with T1 reverse exists? VV doesn’t show one, in fact it shows only the 1909 comes with it.

Under the link to the 1910 DDR, the photos show a shallow N or type one reverse. I did see that in their reverse varieties section, it does not show a 1910 with type one, but the pictures of the DDR prove otherwise.
Here is a link to that specific page: http://www.varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1910PDDR001.htm

It actually states that it is a deep N over shallow N reverse, but a shallow N is seen.

Thank you! Very interesting……it’s definitely not the deep N.

jtlee321

Very interesting thread! The 1910 DDR also shows the obvious differences between the T1 and T2 in the cross bar of the T in UNITED. Thank you for the study, I always love learning new information like this.

Old_Collector

I found an excellent resource available as an online free pdf book, which was written on the subject with a grant by a very interested amateur collector: The Rabbit Hole of the 1909 Lincoln Wheat Cent. You have to sign in with an email address to legally download the pdf version, but the link is https://archive.org/details/RabbitHole1909Cent

It is a great read and is based upon US Mint archived communications, much of which show the politics of the Chief Engraver (Chas. Barber) at the time. It is actually Barber's reverse that is used on some 1909, and then all the way through to 1958.

CaptHenway

William or Charles Barber?

CRHer700

@CaptHenway said:
William or Charles Barber?

I believe that he mistyped that, as William had been dead for over twenty years I believe.

Old_Collector

My bad -- Charles Barber. Fixed, cause: a senior moment. Read Chas. and wrote other.