Actually I'm quite surprised that PCGS gave this a 66, I fully expected it to receive MS67 from PCGS. For once the graders actually looked at the whole coin and not just the luster. As I said to Dan, I fully expect that somewhere down the road that will be changed once the right person submits the coin.
Every time I see "the right person submits the coin" I wonder if there is some credence to the "preferential grading"
rumors. I've heard this from several dealers over the years, but think it could be sour grapes from people not getting
the grades they expect. Incidentally, I graded this coin MS66 when I first viewed this post.
An ex-NGC employee recently alleged on Reddit that they would sometimes look at who had submitted coins even though they weren’t supposed to. Whether they recognize it or not, that can still introduce bias.
I've always understood that is not the case.
If this ends up being accurate that does put a small wrinkle in the grading game.
Actually I'm quite surprised that PCGS gave this a 66, I fully expected it to receive MS67 from PCGS. For once the graders actually looked at the whole coin and not just the luster. As I said to Dan, I fully expect that somewhere down the road that will be changed once the right person submits the coin.
Every time I see "the right person submits the coin" I wonder if there is some credence to the "preferential grading"
rumors. I've heard this from several dealers over the years, but think it could be sour grapes from people not getting
the grades they expect. Incidentally, I graded this coin MS66 when I first viewed this post.
An ex-NGC employee recently alleged on Reddit that they would sometimes look at who had submitted coins even though they weren’t supposed to. Whether they recognize it or not, that can still introduce bias.
I've always understood that is not the case.
If this ends up being accurate that does put a small wrinkle in the grading game.
This cannot be a surprise? This is like the secret that everyone knows... MANY MANY MANY of us have said it depends on who submits it... I submitted a 13-d Lincoln and got the same grade. The coin was sold through Heritage and the new buyer got the coin and it bumped a full grade with a color downgrade... I also remember being talked out of submitting coins for regrade by an auction house when I sold the biggest part of my collection to only see many of those coins now in major collections with 1 to 2 point bumps...
I believe 100% that their is borderline collusion between some collectors, auction houses and the grading companies...
@Catbert said:
I may be in the minority, but I don't like to chase grades and pluses and would be very happy to own a coin that appears undergraded and is also viewed as such by others.
That makes a lot of sense but the price difference between a 66 and 67 is huge and if the coin is undergraded you’re leaving lots of money on the table when you sell it.
He didn't make any mention of selling it as such. Just that he would be happy owning an undergraded coin.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Actually I'm quite surprised that PCGS gave this a 66, I fully expected it to receive MS67 from PCGS. For once the graders actually looked at the whole coin and not just the luster. As I said to Dan, I fully expect that somewhere down the road that will be changed once the right person submits the coin.
Every time I see "the right person submits the coin" I wonder if there is some credence to the "preferential grading"
rumors. I've heard this from several dealers over the years, but think it could be sour grapes from people not getting
the grades they expect. Incidentally, I graded this coin MS66 when I first viewed this post.
An ex-NGC employee recently alleged on Reddit that they would sometimes look at who had submitted coins even though they weren’t supposed to. Whether they recognize it or not, that can still introduce bias.
I've always understood that is not the case.
If this ends up being accurate that does put a small wrinkle in the grading game.
This cannot be a surprise?
.
I believe 100% that their is borderline collusion between some collectors, auction houses and the grading companies...
It absolutely is a surprise.
To suggest graders discover who the submitters are and then grade the coins differently (read: loosely) coupled with the submitters knowledge is a conspiracy I can't get behind for a myriad of reasons.
@MFeld said:
True, it doesn’t. But strike and Liberty’s cheek, not withstanding, the MS66 in this thread still looked like a 67 or 67+ to many of us.
And it looks like an MS66 or 66+ to many of us (seven by my count) that replied as well. GTG threads are fun and can be educational to a point, but what they really show is just how subjective grading done by humans really is. Especially when grading from photos.
Market grading has taken firm hold on many (perhaps most in this forum) with attention to luster being the overriding attribute, notice how many of the MS67 guesses remarked about luster. It would appear to have been so much on the mind of many that they forgot to look at the coin, the surfaces, the quality of the strike, these all have to be accounted for when grading a coin.
Actually I'm quite surprised that PCGS gave this a 66, I fully expected it to receive MS67 from PCGS. For once the graders actually looked at the whole coin and not just the luster. As I said to Dan, I fully expect that somewhere down the road that will be changed once the right person submits the coin.
I still think luster should in fact be the biggest factor in a uncirculated coins grade. True original looking undipped luster is not easy to find as most coins are either over dipped or improperly dipped. So I think it’s fair to reward fresh incredible luster.
It can also be said too many stickers are awarded to dull unappealing lusterless coins by CAC as they perhaps overemphasize marks and original toning on a coin as the most important grading factor
@MFeld said:
True, it doesn’t. But strike and Liberty’s cheek, not withstanding, the MS66 in this thread still looked like a 67 or 67+ to many of us.
And it looks like an MS66 or 66+ to many of us (seven by my count) that replied as well. GTG threads are fun and can be educational to a point, but what they really show is just how subjective grading done by humans really is. Especially when grading from photos.
Market grading has taken firm hold on many (perhaps most in this forum) with attention to luster being the overriding attribute, notice how many of the MS67 guesses remarked about luster. It would appear to have been so much on the mind of many that they forgot to look at the coin, the surfaces, the quality of the strike, these all have to be accounted for when grading a coin.
Actually I'm quite surprised that PCGS gave this a 66, I fully expected it to receive MS67 from PCGS. For once the graders actually looked at the whole coin and not just the luster. As I said to Dan, I fully expect that somewhere down the road that will be changed once the right person submits the coin.
I still think luster should in fact be the biggest factor in a uncirculated coins grade. True original looking undipped luster is not easy to find as most coins are either over dipped or improperly dipped. So I think it’s fair to reward fresh incredible luster.
It can also be said too many stickers are awarded to dull unappealing lusterless coins by CAC as they perhaps overemphasize marks and original toning on a coin as the most important grading factor
I think surface preservation is rightfully weighted more heavily than luster. Many superb, undipped coins with original patina exhibit at least somewhat subdued luster. I believe it's better to credit them for their positive attributes than to punish them for less-than "incredible luster".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Finally catching up with this thread. Before seeing the grade I thought this coin was a lock 67 all day. It might be the nicest 66 TV I've ever seen for an 84-CC. Definitely minimal downside to the crackout game for this one if handled appropriately. Gorgeous coin!
Actually I'm quite surprised that PCGS gave this a 66, I fully expected it to receive MS67 from PCGS. For once the graders actually looked at the whole coin and not just the luster. As I said to Dan, I fully expect that somewhere down the road that will be changed once the right person submits the coin.
Every time I see "the right person submits the coin" I wonder if there is some credence to the "preferential grading"
rumors. I've heard this from several dealers over the years, but think it could be sour grapes from people not getting
the grades they expect. Incidentally, I graded this coin MS66 when I first viewed this post.
An ex-NGC employee recently alleged on Reddit that they would sometimes look at who had submitted coins even though they weren’t supposed to. Whether they recognize it or not, that can still introduce bias.
I've always understood that is not the case.
If this ends up being accurate that does put a small wrinkle in the grading game.
They don't need to know who the submitter is if coin after coin is high end, it's clearly a "whale" submission. Bias? They don't have to show partiality, but there is a sort of high quality expectation when coins are in series gemmy and high end, just as there is "guilt by association" there is premium quality by association.
@braddick said:
It absolutely is a surprise.
To suggest graders discover who the submitters are and then grade the coins differently (read: loosely) coupled with the submitters knowledge is a conspiracy I can't get behind for a myriad of reasons.
It doesn't have to be as overt as you are suggesting, the "good old boy" network is in play in every industry, especially those that have such close relationships like coin grading. Look at all the photos that you see the Penny Lady post from shows, not all the people in those photos are dealers. Some are grading firm employees or auction firm employees; do you really think that "business" is never a part of the discussions at some level.
Say you are a grader and I've just submitted some coins for show grading that I have high hopes for. And while sharing a meal that maybe I gladly pay for I casually mention that I have submitted some killer, blow you away coins for grading. That is not asking for high grades, but it plants the seed in the graders mind and may or may not have an influence one way or the other.
And let's be honest, graders most often were dealers or will be dealers when they leave the TPG, the show coin industry seems to be a tight group mostly and it is no secret that business's always take better care of their big customers. I'm not suggesting that higher grades are given to certain submitters, but I also would not be surprised in the least to learn that graders know what coins some submitters are submitting from time to time.
Many years ago, back when Hall was in charge, I was at a LB show and observed an interaction between Hall and another gentleman. Hall had just finished one of those ask the expert sessions at the PCGS table when the gentleman approached him and handed him a coin in a PCGS holder, looked from my angle to be a large gold coin. He said "here is the coin I talked to you about", Hall slipped it into his pocket gave the fellow a wink and the gentleman headed back to his table.
Be very clear here, I'm not accusing anyone of anything inappropriate like higher grades or anything nefarious in this exchange, it could very easily have been a simple matter of a defective holder that needed to be replaced. But this experience gave me the clear impression that, at least at that time, there was a back channel good old boy network within the grading industry where some dealers or submitters got some level of service (i.e. handing a coin to the CEO with no paperwork) that would not be afforded to someone like myself. As @Relaxn said I don't think this is a surprise to many.
@Walkerlover said:
I still think luster should in fact be the biggest factor in a uncirculated coins grade. True original looking undipped luster is not easy to find as most coins are either over dipped or improperly dipped. So I think it’s fair to reward fresh incredible luster.
It can also be said too many stickers are awarded to dull unappealing lusterless coins by CAC as they perhaps overemphasize marks and original toning on a coin as the most important grading factor
That is fine, I will only say that we can agree to disagree on this.
When you do multiple submissions like that shooting for a higher grade do you do it as reconsideration or crack and send it raw?
I haven't done well with reconsideration the past couple years. When you really believe in a coin, and you're not worried about the possibility of a downgrade, raw submissions are the way to go. If you had a 66+ and you were shooting for 67, regrade might be a better option so you at least retain the + if it doesn't make the cut.
With reconsideration, they have to grade the coin while its encased in plastic, and as you know that could hinder an upgrade if the graders are playing it safe.
Abbyme - I agree with Dan on most of this. There are too many horror stories about people about cracking a coin, not liking the results and resubmitting it again (and again) to fix the original problem. That said, I believe that you have one strike against you re an upgrade if you send a coin in for regrade in holder. But at least you have a safety net. For a coin which is expensive for you, that's a big deal.
The handful of upgrades I've gotten (usually to a +, though I did get two 1 number full upgrades on coins which significantly increased their values in all of the years I have been doing this) have all been when I sent a coin in its original holder.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
coinbuf, thank you sincerely for a well thought-out response with some real world examples.
I suppose my only negative take-away from what you posted is you state:
"Be very clear here, I'm not accusing anyone of anything inappropriate. . ."
And then this proclamation is followed by:
"This gave me a clear impression that, at least at that time, there was a back channel good old boy network within the grading industry where some dealers or submitters got some level of service."
On the surface it would appear those two statements are not congruent with each other.
Comments
I've always understood that is not the case.
If this ends up being accurate that does put a small wrinkle in the grading game.
peacockcoins
I think you need an almost 68 to get a 67 these days...
This cannot be a surprise? This is like the secret that everyone knows... MANY MANY MANY of us have said it depends on who submits it... I submitted a 13-d Lincoln and got the same grade. The coin was sold through Heritage and the new buyer got the coin and it bumped a full grade with a color downgrade... I also remember being talked out of submitting coins for regrade by an auction house when I sold the biggest part of my collection to only see many of those coins now in major collections with 1 to 2 point bumps...
I believe 100% that their is borderline collusion between some collectors, auction houses and the grading companies...
He didn't make any mention of selling it as such. Just that he would be happy owning an undergraded coin.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
.
It absolutely is a surprise.
To suggest graders discover who the submitters are and then grade the coins differently (read: loosely) coupled with the submitters knowledge is a conspiracy I can't get behind for a myriad of reasons.
peacockcoins
I still think luster should in fact be the biggest factor in a uncirculated coins grade. True original looking undipped luster is not easy to find as most coins are either over dipped or improperly dipped. So I think it’s fair to reward fresh incredible luster.
It can also be said too many stickers are awarded to dull unappealing lusterless coins by CAC as they perhaps overemphasize marks and original toning on a coin as the most important grading factor
I think surface preservation is rightfully weighted more heavily than luster. Many superb, undipped coins with original patina exhibit at least somewhat subdued luster. I believe it's better to credit them for their positive attributes than to punish them for less-than "incredible luster".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Finally catching up with this thread. Before seeing the grade I thought this coin was a lock 67 all day. It might be the nicest 66 TV I've ever seen for an 84-CC. Definitely minimal downside to the crackout game for this one if handled appropriately. Gorgeous coin!
They don't need to know who the submitter is if coin after coin is high end, it's clearly a "whale" submission. Bias? They don't have to show partiality, but there is a sort of high quality expectation when coins are in series gemmy and high end, just as there is "guilt by association" there is premium quality by association.
I grade the pic 67 minimum.
All the coin needs is one light line, that you can't see, to be a low end 66.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
It doesn't have to be as overt as you are suggesting, the "good old boy" network is in play in every industry, especially those that have such close relationships like coin grading. Look at all the photos that you see the Penny Lady post from shows, not all the people in those photos are dealers. Some are grading firm employees or auction firm employees; do you really think that "business" is never a part of the discussions at some level.
Say you are a grader and I've just submitted some coins for show grading that I have high hopes for. And while sharing a meal that maybe I gladly pay for
I casually mention that I have submitted some killer, blow you away coins for grading. That is not asking for high grades, but it plants the seed in the graders mind and may or may not have an influence one way or the other.
And let's be honest, graders most often were dealers or will be dealers when they leave the TPG, the show coin industry seems to be a tight group mostly and it is no secret that business's always take better care of their big customers. I'm not suggesting that higher grades are given to certain submitters, but I also would not be surprised in the least to learn that graders know what coins some submitters are submitting from time to time.
Many years ago, back when Hall was in charge, I was at a LB show and observed an interaction between Hall and another gentleman. Hall had just finished one of those ask the expert sessions at the PCGS table when the gentleman approached him and handed him a coin in a PCGS holder, looked from my angle to be a large gold coin. He said "here is the coin I talked to you about", Hall slipped it into his pocket gave the fellow a wink and the gentleman headed back to his table.
Be very clear here, I'm not accusing anyone of anything inappropriate like higher grades or anything nefarious in this exchange, it could very easily have been a simple matter of a defective holder that needed to be replaced. But this experience gave me the clear impression that, at least at that time, there was a back channel good old boy network within the grading industry where some dealers or submitters got some level of service (i.e. handing a coin to the CEO with no paperwork) that would not be afforded to someone like myself. As @Relaxn said I don't think this is a surprise to many.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That is fine, I will only say that we can agree to disagree on this.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Abbyme - I agree with Dan on most of this. There are too many horror stories about people about cracking a coin, not liking the results and resubmitting it again (and again) to fix the original problem. That said, I believe that you have one strike against you re an upgrade if you send a coin in for regrade in holder. But at least you have a safety net. For a coin which is expensive for you, that's a big deal.
The handful of upgrades I've gotten (usually to a +, though I did get two 1 number full upgrades on coins which significantly increased their values in all of the years I have been doing this) have all been when I sent a coin in its original holder.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
coinbuf, thank you sincerely for a well thought-out response with some real world examples.
I suppose my only negative take-away from what you posted is you state:
"Be very clear here, I'm not accusing anyone of anything inappropriate. . ."
And then this proclamation is followed by:
"This gave me a clear impression that, at least at that time, there was a back channel good old boy network within the grading industry where some dealers or submitters got some level of service."
On the surface it would appear those two statements are not congruent with each other.
peacockcoins
I've said it before but you can't grade from a Truview.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)