@JoeBanzai said:
I have stayed away from discussing Pete's lack of character.
He's simply a piece of $hit human being.
Whether he is or not so are a ton of athletes and celebrities. Plenty of likeable people in front of the camera are terrible humans off the camera. Being likable doesnt mean someones a good human just as being unlikable doesnt mean theyre a bad one. Either way that should have no impact on how the on field performance is viewed
As the father of two daughters, I don't call a married 30 something male who sleeps with 14 year old girls merely "unlikeable".
But that's just me.
Wow. I had completely forgotten about that. Can’t believe that.
Rose as a person is trash. Always has been. Overrated as a player, too, though he is popular among collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@JoeBanzai said:
I have stayed away from discussing Pete's lack of character.
He's simply a piece of $hit human being.
Whether he is or not so are a ton of athletes and celebrities. Plenty of likeable people in front of the camera are terrible humans off the camera. Being likable doesnt mean someones a good human just as being unlikable doesnt mean theyre a bad one. Either way that should have no impact on how the on field performance is viewed
As the father of two daughters, I don't call a married 30 something male who sleeps with 14 year old girls merely "unlikeable".
But that's just me.
The gambling is forgivable, the relationships with underage girls is disgusting at every level
I too had forgotten this insanity. I looked up some links about is "escapades", I choose not to post them.
What a PIG of a man, he should be under a jail somewhere.
The Hilton near the Philly ballpark was usually where the visiting MLB players stayed when in town. It was also a popular spot for business lunches, etc, for a variety of reasons. My Dad had business lunches there on a regular basis. So the business folks seeing the visiting players in the dining area was no big deal, and wasn't even talked about.
So the fam was having dinner at home one evening, discussing the usual chit, and my Dad says to me, I saw Pete Rose at the Hilton today. I knew he meant the dining area there and my first quick thought is why is he telling me this? I mean what's the big deal about that? Then my Dad says to me, He looked like something the cat dragged in and he was with a young girl. My Dad emphasized the word "young" without elaboration. That's all my Dad said, and I didn't ask any questions about it. I just figured quickly that Rose simply spent the night with some woman, perhaps a 20 something year old or whatever. Wasn't even sure why my Dad brought it up? It's not like sports stars being with women, even cheating on their wives, is uncommon.
Well years later I read that Rose had a long affair with a girl he met when she was underage. I have no idea if that was the girl mentioned or another one? But the thing I thought about when I read that is Rose certainly had some gall to parade her out in a public dining area at the Hilton, for everyone to see them together. One would think Rose would have ordered room service to keep the affair quiet? But I guess Rose didn't care who knew?
@stevek said:
The Hilton near the Philly ballpark was usually where the visiting MLB players stayed when in town. It was also a popular spot for business lunches, etc, for a variety of reasons. My Dad had business lunches there on a regular basis. So the business folks seeing the visiting players in the dining area was no big deal, and wasn't even talked about.
So the fam was having dinner at home one evening, discussing the usual chit, and my Dad says to me, I saw Pete Rose at the Hilton today. I knew he meant the dining area there and my first quick thought is why is he telling me this? I mean what's the big deal about that? Then my Dad says to me, He looked like something the cat dragged in and he was with a young girl. My Dad emphasized the word "young" without elaboration. That's all my Dad said, and I didn't ask any questions about it. I just figured quickly that Rose simply spent the night with some woman, perhaps a 20 something year old or whatever. Wasn't even sure why my Dad brought it up? It's not like sports stars being with women, even cheating on their wives, is uncommon.
Well years later I read that Rose had a long affair with a girl he met when she was underage. I have no idea if that was the girl mentioned or another one? But the thing I thought about when I read that is Rose certainly had some gall to parade her out in a public dining area at the Hilton, for everyone to see them together. One would think Rose would have ordered room service to keep the affair quiet? But I guess Rose didn't care who knew?
When I was first researching Pete's issues, I was unaware of anything other than the gambling.
Then I saw that he had a long affair with a very young girl (starting when she was 14) and it was also claimed that it was common knowledge that he preferred, young, very thin girls and had sex with numerous children as young as 12 during his career.
I also didn't know he had gone to jail/prison for not paying income taxes on $354,000.00 he earned.
Another allegation was he offered to fund a drug deal to make money to pay off some of his gambling debts.
He was really a complete $cumbag.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
I have stayed away from discussing Pete's lack of character.
He's simply a piece of $hit human being.
Whether he is or not so are a ton of athletes and celebrities. Plenty of likeable people in front of the camera are terrible humans off the camera. Being likable doesnt mean someones a good human just as being unlikable doesnt mean theyre a bad one. Either way that should have no impact on how the on field performance is viewed
As the father of two daughters, I don't call a married 30 something male who sleeps with 14 year old girls merely "unlikeable".
But that's just me.
If true he should have gotten life in prison, as far as I know he disputes the claim and I have no idea what actually went on. I wasnt arguing that he was a good person anyways. Kevin Spacey and Michael Jackson are two objectively bad human beings that are objectively good at what they did as other examples.
The conversation of was someone objective good at what they did or where they objectively a good person are two different conversations. If they get caught doing something by all means kick them out or stop giving them jobs but it doesnt change what they had done. Saying someone is good at something isnt an endorsement of them as a human being
@stevek said:
The Hilton near the Philly ballpark was usually where the visiting MLB players stayed when in town. It was also a popular spot for business lunches, etc, for a variety of reasons. My Dad had business lunches there on a regular basis. So the business folks seeing the visiting players in the dining area was no big deal, and wasn't even talked about.
So the fam was having dinner at home one evening, discussing the usual chit, and my Dad says to me, I saw Pete Rose at the Hilton today. I knew he meant the dining area there and my first quick thought is why is he telling me this? I mean what's the big deal about that? Then my Dad says to me, He looked like something the cat dragged in and he was with a young girl. My Dad emphasized the word "young" without elaboration. That's all my Dad said, and I didn't ask any questions about it. I just figured quickly that Rose simply spent the night with some woman, perhaps a 20 something year old or whatever. Wasn't even sure why my Dad brought it up? It's not like sports stars being with women, even cheating on their wives, is uncommon.
Well years later I read that Rose had a long affair with a girl he met when she was underage. I have no idea if that was the girl mentioned or another one? But the thing I thought about when I read that is Rose certainly had some gall to parade her out in a public dining area at the Hilton, for everyone to see them together. One would think Rose would have ordered room service to keep the affair quiet? But I guess Rose didn't care who knew?
When I was first researching Pete's issues, I was unaware of anything other than the gambling.
Then I saw that he had a long affair with a very young girl (starting when she was 14) and it was also claimed that it was common knowledge that he preferred, young, very thin girls and had sex with numerous children as young as 12 during his career.
I also didn't know he had gone to jail/prison for not paying income taxes on $354,000.00 he earned.
Another allegation was he offered to fund a drug deal to make money to pay off some of his gambling debts.
He was really a complete $cumbag.
Some, perhaps many out there, think that Rose went to prison because of the gambling. When actually he went to prison for the tax evasion you mentioned.
One event I'm aware of is Rose didn't report, i think it was 75k, earned from an autograph show.
@JoeBanzai said:
I have stayed away from discussing Pete's lack of character.
He's simply a piece of $hit human being.
Whether he is or not so are a ton of athletes and celebrities. Plenty of likeable people in front of the camera are terrible humans off the camera. Being likable doesnt mean someones a good human just as being unlikable doesnt mean theyre a bad one. Either way that should have no impact on how the on field performance is viewed
As the father of two daughters, I don't call a married 30 something male who sleeps with 14 year old girls merely "unlikeable".
But that's just me.
If true he should have gotten life in prison, as far as I know he disputes the claim and I have no idea what actually went on. I wasnt arguing that he was a good person anyways. Kevin Spacey and Michael Jackson are two objectively bad human beings that are objectively good at what they did as other examples.
The conversation of was someone objective good at what they did or where they objectively a good person are two different conversations. If they get caught doing something by all means kick them out or stop giving them jobs but it doesnt change what they had done. Saying someone is good at something isnt an endorsement of them as a human being
Yea I recall one example from history who built the autobahn and made the trains run on time, plus he loved dogs.
@MCMLVTopps said:
He may have been a great player at one time, but his ego and stupidity found him banned for life from the game he loved. He knew the rules, but bet on baseball anyway, tempting the fuse that would blow up his world. He denied and denied again, and finally admitted his sin of sins. He simply self-imploded. I have Z E R O sympathy for this idiot.
Do the crime...do the time
HOF...NEVER
What crime did he commit?
Oh wait, that's right, he did not commit a crime. As I noted earlier, murderers get out of prison in half the time Rose has already served.
With all sports leagues firmly embracing sports gambling to enhance their revenues, that we still, 35 years later, want to keep punishing Rose is beyond hypocritical.
The holier-than-thou attitude in this thread is off the charts. May you never, ever have your own missteps be made public.
I'm having trouble overlapping sports betting by fans and/or sports betting being "embraced" by "all sports leagues" with a player betting on games he was playing in or a manager betting on games he was managing. I think that what happened to Rose was justified by Giamatti. Rose had a chance to make peace with MLB under Selig's stewardship and Rose chose not to.
With respect to the allegation of sexual relation/statutory rape with a minor under the age of 16 (16 was the age of consent at that time in Ohio) that information is released in the Dowd report. Here's what I'll say about that - we don't know and we can't know because everyone involved is a proven liar, including Dowd, but there's a good chance that the relationship Rose had with the "unnamed woman" and her statement was not not as clear as it's made out to be regarding when the relationship started and when their sexual relations started. In the report you have this part, and then, almost as an afterthought, there is a synopsis of a conversation with Bertolini, where Bertolini supposedly said that he routinely brought underage girls to Rose. But the conversation was so informal that it wasn't recorded and could not be quoted? As soon as this was released Bertolini immediately denied this. And this would fit with Dowd's proclivity to introduce defamatory statements into the record - public & court. If it's true it's certainly off-putting. I think this one has an asterisk on it, but I wouldn't swing my vote based on anything Dowd says.
I think Rose should be out of MLB until he dies... then they can reinstate him and let the votes determine his HOF case.
@bgr said:
I'm having trouble overlapping sports betting by fans and/or sports betting being "embraced" by "all sports leagues" with a player betting on games he was playing in or a manager betting on games he was managing. I think that what happened to Rose was justified by Giamatti. Rose had a chance to make peace with MLB under Selig's stewardship and Rose chose not to.
I think Rose should be out of MLB until he dies... then they can reinstate him and let the votes determine his HOF case.
Again. Why?
The HoF is a MUSEUM devoted to the history of the sport. Without his inclusion (or Bonds or Clemens or McGwire), all of whom are worthy candidates, the MUSEUM is incomplete.
What's most ironic is the same people lamenting why baseball is dying in popularity are the same people trying to gatekeep the history of the sport.
Because he bet on baseball - Because he bet on baseball games that he played in - Because he bet on baseball games that he managed. I understand you may disagree with my opinion on it, but I thought it was, at least, clear.
Right now he's "banned for life" from MLB.
The HoF is a MUSEUM devoted to the history of the sport. Without his inclusion (or Bonds or Clemens or McGwire), all of whom are worthy candidates, the MUSEUM is incomplete.
There are.
The MLB Hall of Fame where players are enshrined. (Plaque gallery)
The MLB Hall of Fame Museum. (The other 95%)
If you want him to have a plaque in the gallery that's one thing, but if you want his accomplishments in the game to be memorialized in the Hall of Fame Museum - that's there.
Bonds, Clemens, McGwire all have items on display in the museum...
Also there's the fact that this is just my opinion on it, and it doesn't really matter.
@bgr said:
I think Rose should be out of MLB until he dies... then they can reinstate him and let the votes determine his HOF case.
MLB has already stated in 2020 that players are only banned from working in baseball and HOF decisions are up to the HOF and that the bans end as soon as a player dies. They dont have to reinstate him whether living or dead
@bgr said:
I think Rose should be out of MLB until he dies... then they can reinstate him and let the votes determine his HOF case.
MLB has already stated in 2020 that players are only banned from working in baseball and HOF decisions are up to the HOF and that the bans end as soon as a player dies. They dont have to reinstate him whether living or dead
Rules or statements aside, I don’t see Rose being put into a ballot unless MLB was to reinstate him.
Now let’s assume that doesn’t happen and he’s put on the ballot and enshrined, living or not. If that comes to pass please accept this “You were right and I was wrong!” Voucher.
@bgr said:
I think Rose should be out of MLB until he dies... then they can reinstate him and let the votes determine his HOF case.
MLB has already stated in 2020 that players are only banned from working in baseball and HOF decisions are up to the HOF and that the bans end as soon as a player dies. They dont have to reinstate him whether living or dead
Rules or statements aside, I don’t see Rose being put into a ballot unless MLB was to reinstate him.
Now let’s assume that doesn’t happen and he’s put on the ballot and enshrined, living or not. If that comes to pass please accept this “You were right and I was wrong!” Voucher.
I dont see it happening either, but they could put him or Joe Jackson on the ballot next year if they wanted to. I honestly dont think it would matter either way for Rose, too many voters dont vote based off of performance and he wouldnt get enough votes even if he was on the ballot right now.
@PillarDollarCollector asked us a simple question: Is Pete Rose one of the greatest players ever?
Considering his on-field accomplishments and the fact that more than 20k men have played in MLB since its inception, I would say Pete Rose was one of the greatest players ever.
Considering his on-field accomplishments and the fact that more than 20k men have played in MLB since its inception, I would say Pete Rose was one of the greatest players ever.
I agree wholeheartedly.
But if people can't opine about what a miserable person Rose is/was, how else will they show how morally superior they are?
Considering his on-field accomplishments and the fact that more than 20k men have played in MLB since its inception, I would say Pete Rose was one of the greatest players ever.
I agree wholeheartedly.
But if people can't opine about what a miserable person Rose is/was, how else will they show how morally superior they are?
Rose was top 100 for sure, if you want to reward him for longevity, top 50.
His gambling on baseball is germane to the discussion, his other issues much less so.
I would certainly hope most here ARE morally superior to Mr. Rose. He is a very flawed person.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@PillarDollarCollector asked us a simple question: Is Pete Rose one of the greatest players ever?
I have no issue with the question, but I think saying it's a "simple question" isn't quite fair other than to denigrate nuanced opinions on what qualifies someone as "one of the greatest players ever".
That some people weigh their opinion based on other factors doesn't have to speak to anyone's definition of "one of the greatest players ever" other than their own. If that was defined more clearly as to the criteria that should be considered it could become a simple question.
Was Pete Rose one of the 100 best position players in MLB history? Probably, but I think there's enough subjectivity that people could have him outside of the top 100 based on his on-field accomplishments alone. There's nothing in the question which drew a boundary around what could be considered. I don't even know if 100 is a good number. Maybe I should only be considering the 10 best position players, or the 10 best hitters, or the 10 most durable players - I don't know... it's kind of left open to interpretation and discussion.
But if people can't opine about what a miserable person Rose is/was, how else will they show how morally superior they are?
It really shouldn't be a bother that someone doesn't think as highly of a player because of something they did or didn't do inside or outside of the game.
I don't see how moral superiority comes into play directly here... These are not "What would you do?" items - no one is talking about how Rose didn't tip well or how he wouldn't hold the elevator door.
MLB History should survive outside of what exists at Cooperstown. Joe Jackson is legend and he will remain a legend whether he is in or out of the HOF. And Pete Rose may have accomplished several things on the field... and so did a reasonable number of other players. The HOF is simply not what captures or memorializes all that is significant in MLB History.
I would rather have Billy Williams on my team than Pete Rose- And for me that is an easy decision.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I’ve thought about this and I’m pretty sure the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen on this forum is when mistilin was arguing against Schillings on field accomplishments being HOF worthy and he said…..
Schilling has only finished top two in cy young voting 3 times. 😂😂😂
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
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@PillarDollarCollector said:
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
I agree. The gambling on baseball while being a player or manager does come into play IF someone cares about sportsmanship.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@PillarDollarCollector said:
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
I agree. The gambling on baseball while being a player or manager does come into play IF someone cares about sportsmanship.
Yes but it does not take away what he did on the field. Is Pete perfect no but who truly is when you look deep into someones life many have made bad mistakes or continue to do never bettering themselves. No human is a Saint not a single one. And if one thinks he/she is then they are most likely not looking into a mirror and judging themselves with objectivity.
I do believe in forgiveness in certain cases in life. Some people actually change for the better. A very wise man once said may the first among you that has never sinned throw the first stone. And then all walked away knowing full well they are not perfect.
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One of the greatest ever no doubt. Not superb physical talent, but attitude and hustle, perhaps the greatest ever in the game. Should have been in the Hall of Fame long, long ago. Even before sports promoted gambling everyday in everywftay. All the players in history, all the talent, all the speed, all the strength and Pete Rose has the most hits EVER despite not being a physical specimen of note. How did he do it? He loved the game, loved the game, loved the game. Forever a Rose fan.
@PillarDollarCollector said:
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
I agree. The gambling on baseball while being a player or manager does come into play IF someone cares about sportsmanship.
Yes but it does not take away what he did on the field. Is Pete perfect no but who truly is when you look deep into someones life many have made bad mistakes or continue to do never bettering themselves. No human is a Saint not a single one. And if one thinks he/she is then they are most likely not looking into a mirror and judging themselves with objectivity.
I do believe in forgiveness in certain cases in life. Some people actually change for the better. A very wise man once said may the first among you that has never sinned throw the first stone. And then all walked away knowing full well they are not perfect.
Since he broke the cardinal rule of baseball, that needs to be taken into consideration.
The punishment is he can't be a HOF member.
From what I have read MLB was going to open the door to let him on two occasions in and he didn't cooperate.
Face facts Pete Rose fans, he makes more money and fame from NOT being in the hof.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@PillarDollarCollector said:
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
I agree. The gambling on baseball while being a player or manager does come into play IF someone cares about sportsmanship.
Yes but it does not take away what he did on the field. Is Pete perfect no but who truly is when you look deep into someones life many have made bad mistakes or continue to do never bettering themselves. No human is a Saint not a single one. And if one thinks he/she is then they are most likely not looking into a mirror and judging themselves with objectivity.
I do believe in forgiveness in certain cases in life. Some people actually change for the better. A very wise man once said may the first among you that has never sinned throw the first stone. And then all walked away knowing full well they are not perfect.
Since he broke the cardinal rule of baseball, that needs to be taken into consideration.
The punishment is he can't be a HOF member.
From what I have read MLB was going to open the door to let him on two occasions in and he didn't cooperate.
Face facts Pete Rose fans, he makes more money and fame from NOT being in the hof.
Agreed he broke those rules and paying the price. But how many have not paid?
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Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
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@PillarDollarCollector said:
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
I agree. The gambling on baseball while being a player or manager does come into play IF someone cares about sportsmanship.
Yes but it does not take away what he did on the field. Is Pete perfect no but who truly is when you look deep into someones life many have made bad mistakes or continue to do never bettering themselves. No human is a Saint not a single one. And if one thinks he/she is then they are most likely not looking into a mirror and judging themselves with objectivity.
I do believe in forgiveness in certain cases in life. Some people actually change for the better. A very wise man once said may the first among you that has never sinned throw the first stone. And then all walked away knowing full well they are not perfect.
Since he broke the cardinal rule of baseball, that needs to be taken into consideration.
The punishment is he can't be a HOF member.
From what I have read MLB was going to open the door to let him on two occasions in and he didn't cooperate.
Face facts Pete Rose fans, he makes more money and fame from NOT being in the hof.
"he makes more money and fame from NOT being in the hof."
I agree with ya!
Anyone who doesn't understand this, try looking up what an original photo of Jesse James or Billy the Kid is worth? Can be worth millions.
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
I've heard this argument time and time again. It's irrelevant, you can't bet on a baseball game you're involved in playing!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
I truly don't understand the logic behind this distinction.
By betting on any game, he's going to manage differently in all games than he would otherwise. And that's why it doesn't matter if he bets to win or lose.
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
I truly don't understand the logic behind this distinction.
By betting on any game, he's going to manage differently in all games than he would otherwise. And that's why it doesn't matter if he bets to win or lose.
I kind of thought betting your team to win was different but after thinking about it I think it's almost as bad.
Tanking would be far worse. I think betting your team to win you could push some of the better players too far
Pitchers in particular being put into the game where otherwise they should be rested.
Many different ways to look at him as a HOF'er or not
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
I truly don't understand the logic behind this distinction.
By betting on any game, he's going to manage differently in all games than he would otherwise. And that's why it doesn't matter if he bets to win or lose.
Exactly.
Pete would likely "Martinize" his pitching staff. Keeping a starter or reliever in way too long in a particular ballgame where he has a heavy bet to squeeze some extra juice out of him. Possibly causing the pitcher arm problems in his next game or even career.
Or Pete could leave in a sore arm pitcher, and bet against his team.
The various ways to cheat are endless. Shenanigans can be done with hitters as well.
Anyone who understands gambling addiction, knows that Pete's explanation that he only bet on his team to win is pure BS. Sooner or later, and it is usually sooner, depending on his personal situation, he will bet against his team and try to make them lose, as sure as God made green apples.
if anyone here thinks that Rose never -- not once -- bet on his team to lose, then i've got some oceanfront property in New Mexico i'd like to talk to you about.
dude is as slimy as snot on a doorknob. he wasn't all of a sudden going to find a morsel of integrity amid his complete and utter degeneracy. that is straight-up laughable.
instead of being focused on managerial maneuvers to propel his team to victory, his mind was consumed with angles to protect himself financially. period, end of story, and anyone who thinks otherwise has never experienced what it feels like to be in a gambling choke hold. when you get in deep, you do not -- repeat, do NOT -- think clearly. your mind is filled with irrational rationalizations.
i've shown these pictures before, but i feel the need to show them again since we're touching on the character of Rose. over a decade ago i happened to hit up a Cincy home game in which they were honoring the Big Red Machine. that in and of itself was a surprise, but it wasn't the only one. i'll never forget the way Rose looked that day -- like a transient who decided to crash the festivities. perception is reality, and Rose was in one of his patented IDGAF modes on a very special day.
look at him in the first pic below -- one thing is unlike the others. look at him in the second pic near 3rd -- i'm surprised security didn't mistakenly flatten him
i'd never trust that douche canoe as far as i could throw him
I am a bit confused at this point about the alleged 14 year old girl relationship. I guess I had assumed it to be true, and had not done any research myself. from what I have read in this thread, it is possible this is simply an allegation and not "truth?"
is there any evidence it happened? I didnt realize the witness had recanted right after he spoke with dowd. I am wondering if there is any evidence that this happened or is it hearsay?
@PillarDollarCollector said:
Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
I truly don't understand the logic behind this distinction.
By betting on any game, he's going to manage differently in all games than he would otherwise. And that's why it doesn't matter if he bets to win or lose.
The argument against managers makes sense, the argument against players betting to win doesnt. Players bet each other all the time in the locker room and play high stakes card games against each other on team flights etc.
The other aspect though is that a playing career and a managing career should be separated. He certainly doesnt belong as a manager even without the betting. Hed already done enough to deserve it as a player before becoming a player manager which is just stupid for an MLB team anyways.
@craig44 said:
I am a bit confused at this point about the alleged 14 year old girl relationship. I guess I had assumed it to be true, and had not done any research myself. from what I have read in this thread, it is possible this is simply an allegation and not "truth?"
is there any evidence it happened? I didnt realize the witness had recanted right after he spoke with dowd. I am wondering if there is any evidence that this happened or is it hearsay?
I think there are two parts to this. It’s known that he had a relationship with a minor and that person had stated that they had a sexual relationship before she was 16 years old. That was entered as evidence in Dowd’s defamation defense against Rose. The other part to that is that Dowd’s report to MLB stated that he was told by Bertolini that Rose had him (Bertolini) bring young girls, 12-14, to Rose. Bertolini immediately denied that publicly.
So there’s a statement on the record for a case which was never brought. Because of procedure. Merit hasn’t been considered yet. That shouldn’t be considered but we should be able to parse the information as it is there. The other stuff could be Dowd over-reaching or it could be true, but Bertolini wouldn’t have much to gain from disputing that and if it was true that’s something Dowd would have wanted certified. Plus Dowd is a liar.
I lean towards Rose not being someone I would trust my 14 year old with.
From what I have read MLB was going to open the door to let him on two occasions in and he didn't cooperate.
Again, other than behind closed doors MLB has nothing to do with who gets on the ballot or not. Theyve publicly stated it
@craig44 said:
I am a bit confused at this point about the alleged 14 year old girl relationship. I guess I had assumed it to be true, and had not done any research myself. from what I have read in this thread, it is possible this is simply an allegation and not "truth?"
is there any evidence it happened? I didnt realize the witness had recanted right after he spoke with dowd. I am wondering if there is any evidence that this happened or is it hearsay?
Rose was in a long term relationship with a girl who was possibly 14 when it started. She's not going to do anything to hurt Pete.
Pete doesn't talk about it, but I read somewhere that he claimed she told him she was 16 when they got together. In Ohio that's the age of consent.
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@craig44 said:
I am a bit confused at this point about the alleged 14 year old girl relationship. I guess I had assumed it to be true, and had not done any research myself. from what I have read in this thread, it is possible this is simply an allegation and not "truth?"
is there any evidence it happened? I didnt realize the witness had recanted right after he spoke with dowd. I am wondering if there is any evidence that this happened or is it hearsay?
I think there are two parts to this. It’s known that he had a relationship with a minor and that person had stated that they had a sexual relationship before she was 16 years old. That was entered as evidence in Dowd’s defamation defense against Rose. The other part to that is that Dowd’s report to MLB stated that he was told by Bertolini that Rose had him (Bertolini) bring young girls, 12-14, to Rose. Bertolini immediately denied that publicly.
So there’s a statement on the record for a case which was never brought. Because of procedure. Merit hasn’t been considered yet. That shouldn’t be considered but we should be able to parse the information as it is there. The other stuff could be Dowd over-reaching or it could be true, but Bertolini wouldn’t have much to gain from disputing that and if it was true that’s something Dowd would have wanted certified. Plus Dowd is a liar.
I lean towards Rose not being someone I would trust my 14 year old with.
Our sports ''heroes'' just imagine if we knew all their secrets. ''Heroes'' mostly all illusions of our minds if you really look deeper into things. Sad really!!!
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My understanding is that part of the reason (maybe a big part) that Rose agreed to the lifetime ban was to stop Dowd from investigating Rose's gambling any further because it would have led to discovery that Rose bet against the Reds as well as on them to win. It was also widely known among bookmakers that Rose would not bet on the Reds when Soto or Gullickson pitched because he did not believe the Reds had a viable chance to win those games.
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Pete Rose should be in the MLB Hall of Fame. Period. He's served a 35-year sentence - it's long past time for MLB to do the right thing, lift the ban, and get him on the MLB HoF ballot.
@Mistlin said:
Pete Rose should be in the MLB Hall of Fame. Period. He's served a 35-year sentence - it's long past time for MLB to do the right thing, lift the ban, and get him on the MLB HoF ballot.
If a 100 mile wide asteroid was headed for earth, less than a day away, and was going to obliterate all life on the planet, and there was a quick meeting called amongst the Hall of Fame voters and the question was asked, since we've only got one day left, should we at least finally let Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?
@Mistlin said:
Pete Rose should be in the MLB Hall of Fame. Period. He's served a 35-year sentence - it's long past time for MLB to do the right thing, lift the ban, and get him on the MLB HoF ballot.
If a 100 mile wide asteroid was headed for earth, less than a day away, and was going to obliterate all life on the planet, and there was a quick meeting called amongst the Hall of Fame voters and the question was asked, since we've only got one day left, should we at least finally let Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?
They would still say NO. 😆
Too bad there was no such thing as a "Mandatory Reporter" back in the day, he'd be in prison. WHERE HE BELONGS.
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Comments
Rose as a person is trash. Always has been. Overrated as a player, too, though he is popular among collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
From the Bleacher Report;
The gambling is forgivable, the relationships with underage girls is disgusting at every level
I too had forgotten this insanity. I looked up some links about is "escapades", I choose not to post them.
What a PIG of a man, he should be under a jail somewhere.
The Hilton near the Philly ballpark was usually where the visiting MLB players stayed when in town. It was also a popular spot for business lunches, etc, for a variety of reasons. My Dad had business lunches there on a regular basis. So the business folks seeing the visiting players in the dining area was no big deal, and wasn't even talked about.
So the fam was having dinner at home one evening, discussing the usual chit, and my Dad says to me, I saw Pete Rose at the Hilton today. I knew he meant the dining area there and my first quick thought is why is he telling me this? I mean what's the big deal about that? Then my Dad says to me, He looked like something the cat dragged in and he was with a young girl. My Dad emphasized the word "young" without elaboration. That's all my Dad said, and I didn't ask any questions about it. I just figured quickly that Rose simply spent the night with some woman, perhaps a 20 something year old or whatever. Wasn't even sure why my Dad brought it up? It's not like sports stars being with women, even cheating on their wives, is uncommon.
Well years later I read that Rose had a long affair with a girl he met when she was underage. I have no idea if that was the girl mentioned or another one? But the thing I thought about when I read that is Rose certainly had some gall to parade her out in a public dining area at the Hilton, for everyone to see them together. One would think Rose would have ordered room service to keep the affair quiet? But I guess Rose didn't care who knew?
When I was first researching Pete's issues, I was unaware of anything other than the gambling.
Then I saw that he had a long affair with a very young girl (starting when she was 14) and it was also claimed that it was common knowledge that he preferred, young, very thin girls and had sex with numerous children as young as 12 during his career.
I also didn't know he had gone to jail/prison for not paying income taxes on $354,000.00 he earned.
Another allegation was he offered to fund a drug deal to make money to pay off some of his gambling debts.
He was really a complete $cumbag.
If true he should have gotten life in prison, as far as I know he disputes the claim and I have no idea what actually went on. I wasnt arguing that he was a good person anyways. Kevin Spacey and Michael Jackson are two objectively bad human beings that are objectively good at what they did as other examples.
The conversation of was someone objective good at what they did or where they objectively a good person are two different conversations. If they get caught doing something by all means kick them out or stop giving them jobs but it doesnt change what they had done. Saying someone is good at something isnt an endorsement of them as a human being
Some, perhaps many out there, think that Rose went to prison because of the gambling. When actually he went to prison for the tax evasion you mentioned.
One event I'm aware of is Rose didn't report, i think it was 75k, earned from an autograph show.
Yea I recall one example from history who built the autobahn and made the trains run on time, plus he loved dogs.
What crime did he commit?
Oh wait, that's right, he did not commit a crime. As I noted earlier, murderers get out of prison in half the time Rose has already served.
With all sports leagues firmly embracing sports gambling to enhance their revenues, that we still, 35 years later, want to keep punishing Rose is beyond hypocritical.
The holier-than-thou attitude in this thread is off the charts. May you never, ever have your own missteps be made public.
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https://sports.yahoo.com/pete-rose-sexual-relationship-underage-girl-1970s-court-doc-says-172143720.html
So that's why he is banned from the HoF? This article is from 2017 and nothing was ever substantiated.
He did the time, even with these newer allegations.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
I'm having trouble overlapping sports betting by fans and/or sports betting being "embraced" by "all sports leagues" with a player betting on games he was playing in or a manager betting on games he was managing. I think that what happened to Rose was justified by Giamatti. Rose had a chance to make peace with MLB under Selig's stewardship and Rose chose not to.
With respect to the allegation of sexual relation/statutory rape with a minor under the age of 16 (16 was the age of consent at that time in Ohio) that information is released in the Dowd report. Here's what I'll say about that - we don't know and we can't know because everyone involved is a proven liar, including Dowd, but there's a good chance that the relationship Rose had with the "unnamed woman" and her statement was not not as clear as it's made out to be regarding when the relationship started and when their sexual relations started. In the report you have this part, and then, almost as an afterthought, there is a synopsis of a conversation with Bertolini, where Bertolini supposedly said that he routinely brought underage girls to Rose. But the conversation was so informal that it wasn't recorded and could not be quoted? As soon as this was released Bertolini immediately denied this. And this would fit with Dowd's proclivity to introduce defamatory statements into the record - public & court. If it's true it's certainly off-putting. I think this one has an asterisk on it, but I wouldn't swing my vote based on anything Dowd says.
I think Rose should be out of MLB until he dies... then they can reinstate him and let the votes determine his HOF case.
Again. Why?
The HoF is a MUSEUM devoted to the history of the sport. Without his inclusion (or Bonds or Clemens or McGwire), all of whom are worthy candidates, the MUSEUM is incomplete.
What's most ironic is the same people lamenting why baseball is dying in popularity are the same people trying to gatekeep the history of the sport.
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Because he bet on baseball - Because he bet on baseball games that he played in - Because he bet on baseball games that he managed. I understand you may disagree with my opinion on it, but I thought it was, at least, clear.
Right now he's "banned for life" from MLB.
There are.
If you want him to have a plaque in the gallery that's one thing, but if you want his accomplishments in the game to be memorialized in the Hall of Fame Museum - that's there.
Bonds, Clemens, McGwire all have items on display in the museum...
Also there's the fact that this is just my opinion on it, and it doesn't really matter.
MLB has already stated in 2020 that players are only banned from working in baseball and HOF decisions are up to the HOF and that the bans end as soon as a player dies. They dont have to reinstate him whether living or dead
Rules or statements aside, I don’t see Rose being put into a ballot unless MLB was to reinstate him.
Now let’s assume that doesn’t happen and he’s put on the ballot and enshrined, living or not. If that comes to pass please accept this “You were right and I was wrong!” Voucher.
I dont see it happening either, but they could put him or Joe Jackson on the ballot next year if they wanted to. I honestly dont think it would matter either way for Rose, too many voters dont vote based off of performance and he wouldnt get enough votes even if he was on the ballot right now.
@PillarDollarCollector asked us a simple question: Is Pete Rose one of the greatest players ever?
Considering his on-field accomplishments and the fact that more than 20k men have played in MLB since its inception, I would say Pete Rose was one of the greatest players ever.
I agree wholeheartedly.
But if people can't opine about what a miserable person Rose is/was, how else will they show how morally superior they are?
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No- And a hard no at that.
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Rose was top 100 for sure, if you want to reward him for longevity, top 50.
His gambling on baseball is germane to the discussion, his other issues much less so.
I would certainly hope most here ARE morally superior to Mr. Rose. He is a very flawed person.
I have no issue with the question, but I think saying it's a "simple question" isn't quite fair other than to denigrate nuanced opinions on what qualifies someone as "one of the greatest players ever".
That some people weigh their opinion based on other factors doesn't have to speak to anyone's definition of "one of the greatest players ever" other than their own. If that was defined more clearly as to the criteria that should be considered it could become a simple question.
Was Pete Rose one of the 100 best position players in MLB history? Probably, but I think there's enough subjectivity that people could have him outside of the top 100 based on his on-field accomplishments alone. There's nothing in the question which drew a boundary around what could be considered. I don't even know if 100 is a good number. Maybe I should only be considering the 10 best position players, or the 10 best hitters, or the 10 most durable players - I don't know... it's kind of left open to interpretation and discussion.
It really shouldn't be a bother that someone doesn't think as highly of a player because of something they did or didn't do inside or outside of the game.
I don't see how moral superiority comes into play directly here... These are not "What would you do?" items - no one is talking about how Rose didn't tip well or how he wouldn't hold the elevator door.
MLB History should survive outside of what exists at Cooperstown. Joe Jackson is legend and he will remain a legend whether he is in or out of the HOF. And Pete Rose may have accomplished several things on the field... and so did a reasonable number of other players. The HOF is simply not what captures or memorializes all that is significant in MLB History.
I would rather have Billy Williams on my team than Pete Rose- And for me that is an easy decision.
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I’ve got mistlin voting as follows for the HOF….
Rose- yes because off field activities don’t matter
Schilling- no because off field activities matter
Stupid list…. Mistlin
I’ve thought about this and I’m pretty sure the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen on this forum is when mistilin was arguing against Schillings on field accomplishments being HOF worthy and he said…..
Schilling has only finished top two in cy young voting 3 times. 😂😂😂
Stupid list…. Mistlin
I just wanted to know as a baseball player nothing else. People's personal lives are theirs if they do a crime let them do the time. Let the courts judge them.
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I agree. The gambling on baseball while being a player or manager does come into play IF someone cares about sportsmanship.
Yes but it does not take away what he did on the field. Is Pete perfect no but who truly is when you look deep into someones life many have made bad mistakes or continue to do never bettering themselves. No human is a Saint not a single one. And if one thinks he/she is then they are most likely not looking into a mirror and judging themselves with objectivity.
I do believe in forgiveness in certain cases in life. Some people actually change for the better. A very wise man once said may the first among you that has never sinned throw the first stone. And then all walked away knowing full well they are not perfect.
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One of the greatest ever no doubt. Not superb physical talent, but attitude and hustle, perhaps the greatest ever in the game. Should have been in the Hall of Fame long, long ago. Even before sports promoted gambling everyday in everywftay. All the players in history, all the talent, all the speed, all the strength and Pete Rose has the most hits EVER despite not being a physical specimen of note. How did he do it? He loved the game, loved the game, loved the game. Forever a Rose fan.
Since he broke the cardinal rule of baseball, that needs to be taken into consideration.
The punishment is he can't be a HOF member.
From what I have read MLB was going to open the door to let him on two occasions in and he didn't cooperate.
Face facts Pete Rose fans, he makes more money and fame from NOT being in the hof.
Agreed he broke those rules and paying the price. But how many have not paid?
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Pete never bet on his team to lose that to me is a huge thing that means he wanted to win not bring his team down. But it is what it is he is not in the HOF.
If he had bet against his team I would kick him under the bus.
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"he makes more money and fame from NOT being in the hof."
I agree with ya!
Anyone who doesn't understand this, try looking up what an original photo of Jesse James or Billy the Kid is worth? Can be worth millions.
Again, other than behind closed doors MLB has nothing to do with who gets on the ballot or not. Theyve publicly stated it
I've heard this argument time and time again. It's irrelevant, you can't bet on a baseball game you're involved in playing!
I truly don't understand the logic behind this distinction.
By betting on any game, he's going to manage differently in all games than he would otherwise. And that's why it doesn't matter if he bets to win or lose.
I kind of thought betting your team to win was different but after thinking about it I think it's almost as bad.
Tanking would be far worse. I think betting your team to win you could push some of the better players too far
Pitchers in particular being put into the game where otherwise they should be rested.
Many different ways to look at him as a HOF'er or not
Exactly.
Pete would likely "Martinize" his pitching staff. Keeping a starter or reliever in way too long in a particular ballgame where he has a heavy bet to squeeze some extra juice out of him. Possibly causing the pitcher arm problems in his next game or even career.
Or Pete could leave in a sore arm pitcher, and bet against his team.
The various ways to cheat are endless. Shenanigans can be done with hitters as well.
Anyone who understands gambling addiction, knows that Pete's explanation that he only bet on his team to win is pure BS. Sooner or later, and it is usually sooner, depending on his personal situation, he will bet against his team and try to make them lose, as sure as God made green apples.
if anyone here thinks that Rose never -- not once -- bet on his team to lose, then i've got some oceanfront property in New Mexico i'd like to talk to you about.
dude is as slimy as snot on a doorknob. he wasn't all of a sudden going to find a morsel of integrity amid his complete and utter degeneracy. that is straight-up laughable.
instead of being focused on managerial maneuvers to propel his team to victory, his mind was consumed with angles to protect himself financially. period, end of story, and anyone who thinks otherwise has never experienced what it feels like to be in a gambling choke hold. when you get in deep, you do not -- repeat, do NOT -- think clearly. your mind is filled with irrational rationalizations.
i've shown these pictures before, but i feel the need to show them again since we're touching on the character of Rose. over a decade ago i happened to hit up a Cincy home game in which they were honoring the Big Red Machine. that in and of itself was a surprise, but it wasn't the only one. i'll never forget the way Rose looked that day -- like a transient who decided to crash the festivities. perception is reality, and Rose was in one of his patented IDGAF modes on a very special day.
look at him in the first pic below -- one thing is unlike the others. look at him in the second pic near 3rd -- i'm surprised security didn't mistakenly flatten him
i'd never trust that douche canoe as far as i could throw him
I am a bit confused at this point about the alleged 14 year old girl relationship. I guess I had assumed it to be true, and had not done any research myself. from what I have read in this thread, it is possible this is simply an allegation and not "truth?"
is there any evidence it happened? I didnt realize the witness had recanted right after he spoke with dowd. I am wondering if there is any evidence that this happened or is it hearsay?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The argument against managers makes sense, the argument against players betting to win doesnt. Players bet each other all the time in the locker room and play high stakes card games against each other on team flights etc.
The other aspect though is that a playing career and a managing career should be separated. He certainly doesnt belong as a manager even without the betting. Hed already done enough to deserve it as a player before becoming a player manager which is just stupid for an MLB team anyways.
I think there are two parts to this. It’s known that he had a relationship with a minor and that person had stated that they had a sexual relationship before she was 16 years old. That was entered as evidence in Dowd’s defamation defense against Rose. The other part to that is that Dowd’s report to MLB stated that he was told by Bertolini that Rose had him (Bertolini) bring young girls, 12-14, to Rose. Bertolini immediately denied that publicly.
So there’s a statement on the record for a case which was never brought. Because of procedure. Merit hasn’t been considered yet. That shouldn’t be considered but we should be able to parse the information as it is there. The other stuff could be Dowd over-reaching or it could be true, but Bertolini wouldn’t have much to gain from disputing that and if it was true that’s something Dowd would have wanted certified. Plus Dowd is a liar.
I lean towards Rose not being someone I would trust my 14 year old with.
Rose was in a long term relationship with a girl who was possibly 14 when it started. She's not going to do anything to hurt Pete.
Pete doesn't talk about it, but I read somewhere that he claimed she told him she was 16 when they got together. In Ohio that's the age of consent.
Our sports ''heroes'' just imagine if we knew all their secrets. ''Heroes'' mostly all illusions of our minds if you really look deeper into things. Sad really!!!
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My understanding is that part of the reason (maybe a big part) that Rose agreed to the lifetime ban was to stop Dowd from investigating Rose's gambling any further because it would have led to discovery that Rose bet against the Reds as well as on them to win. It was also widely known among bookmakers that Rose would not bet on the Reds when Soto or Gullickson pitched because he did not believe the Reds had a viable chance to win those games.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Pete Rose should be in the MLB Hall of Fame. Period. He's served a 35-year sentence - it's long past time for MLB to do the right thing, lift the ban, and get him on the MLB HoF ballot.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
If a 100 mile wide asteroid was headed for earth, less than a day away, and was going to obliterate all life on the planet, and there was a quick meeting called amongst the Hall of Fame voters and the question was asked, since we've only got one day left, should we at least finally let Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?
They would still say NO. 😆
Too bad there was no such thing as a "Mandatory Reporter" back in the day, he'd be in prison. WHERE HE BELONGS.