Net54 did a poll. About 250 people voted. Bonds was first with 28% Koufax second with 14% nobody else received even 10% of the vote. I think a similar poll here would come out different but bet Bonds would be the top vote getter.
Some of the names being thrown out make no sense to me. Koufax? League average outside of Dodger Stadium and just 2300 innings. Pete Rose? No power AND just a .303 average. Gimme Wade Boggs if we're taking somebody with no power. Nolan Ryan? What were his GREAT seasons? 1972 and the shortened 1981? He had an ERA of 2.75 or lower TWICE.
C'mon.
To be clear, it’s officially MLB’s choice for greatest living players as Sandy Koufax and Johnny Bench.
Personally, I have a hard time giving it to a pitcher.
This completely made up title first appeared by request of Joe DiMaggio (some say as a way of tweaking his peers, especially Ted Williams) and you could argue it wasn’t even the case then - Mays, Hank, Musial, Mickey and Ted and several others could have been considered more deserving of the title when Joe held it. Upon his death, the title then went to Ted Williams and then MLB stepped on (I mean in) and gave it to the four aforementioned men. And with the passing of Aaron and now Mays, there are only two men that remain. (At the time the list was put out, I thought it was a slight to leave Yogi Berra off that list as he was still alive at the time.)
I also believe, on some level, that many of the guys mentioned are still too young to hold the title as it wasn’t until nearly twenty years after he retired that Joltin’ Joe updated his moniker.
I have always though there was an elder statesmen element to whom deserves the award; younguns like Griffey, Bonds, Clemens, Maddux et al can wait their turn a little while longer. But that’s just me.
😉
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@countdouglas said:
Trouty over here like, "Why am I catching strays in this conversation?" Lol
.
Trouty dominates the disabled list like nobody in history.
Before his reign is over he will set records for most time spent not earning his salary that will never be broken
His teammate Anthony Rendon is giving him a run for his money on not earning his salary
Awards and championships are a factor and do change how we perceive certain players. There have and always will be players that step up in the biggest moments: Corey Seager is one of the most recent but the list is long: Bumgarner, Schilling, Hershiser, Morris, Jackson, Gibson, Berra, etc.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@musicfan123 said:
Ty Cobb's legacy ... which is alive and well.
Never won a championship and only 1 MVP, I guess he wasnt that good and didn't put out much of an effort.
There were no MVPs until 1931 or Cobb would have had his share.
My response was intended to be an example of why MVP's and Champuonships are a poor way of judging greatness.
I also believe at one time players were only allowed to win 1 MVP.
No one is using MVP's and Championships as criteria for greatness, but it is a factor that you seem to count as nothing.
When you compare modern day SS's how can you not factor in Seager's 2 WS MVP's? Him getting into the rare air of only four players to have won World Series MVP award multiple times. Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Reggie Jackson and Corey Seager have won the award twice and that makes him special.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Some of the names being thrown out make no sense to me. Koufax? League average outside of Dodger Stadium and just 2300 innings. Pete Rose? No power AND just a .303 average. Gimme Wade Boggs if we're taking somebody with no power. Nolan Ryan? What were his GREAT seasons? 1972 and the shortened 1981? He had an ERA of 2.75 or lower TWICE.
C'mon.
To be clear, it’s officially MLB’s choice for greatest living players as Sandy Koufax and Johnny Bench.
Rose and Koufax were mentioned outside of the MLB list. And I'm ignoring their selections anyway
@bgr said:
I would disagree with Koufax being overrated.
I'm going to side with Hank Aaron and Joe Morgan on that one... When I listen to some of the greatest hitters in MLB history sit around and talk about how dominant Koufax I think that says everything.
I don't have Nolan Ryan in my top 10, but I think his greatness is being overlooked a bit. He played on some pretty mediocre teams for the majority of his career. He was in the midst of his worst year in MLB when his arm finally fell apart... and he just walked off the mound, back to his ranch, and off to Cooperstown. But the guy also had WHIP of like 1.05 for 3 of his last 5 years when he was 40+. His strikeout total is the product of accumulation... sure, but he also led the league in SO/9 half his career. There may never be another Nolan Ryan. Plus I put him up there with Gibson and Pedro as one of the most intimidating pitchers all time.
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You don't have to agree with any facts you don't like.
Koufax had 3 great years (although he was just average away from Dodger Stadium during those seasons) and 1 fantastic year. He also had 6 years where he was either not used or ineffective. He had one other year where he was pretty good.
These are facts. You can choose to ignore them because he had a great year in 1966 and he struck out a lot of guys.
Your other guy, Nolan Ryan was very good from time to time, but if you look at ERA+, he had about 4 superb years. He struck out a lot of guys, but he walked a lot of guys too. At least Ryan had a long career.
Marichal was far superior as was Gibson and Seaver who all had at least 9 great seasons. Some of the newer group of pitchers were far superior to Koufax as well. Martinez, Clemens, Johnson and Kershaw were all better.
4-5 years, no matter good are not enough to be considered an all time great.
It's interesting that you used Marichal when Jim "Cakes" Palmer has nearly identical stats plus 3 Cy Young awards and 3 World Series rings. Marichal has 0.
I tend to think Jim Palmer is the most underappreciated Hall of Famer post-1950. He was the best pitcher in the decade of the 1970's. The 1970's were dominated by great pitchers like Seaver, Carlton, Perry, Jenkins, Hunter, Blue, Ryan, Tiant, Sutton, and more so that is saying something.
3x Cy Young Winner (8x top 5 finishes in the Cy Young)
3x WS Winner (8-3 2.63 in the playoffs)
All-Time record of 268-152 2.86 ERA 2202 K's 53 shutouts
4th lowest career ERA for any starter with more than 2000 innings pitched since 1950. It's worth mentioning that Clayton Kershaw has the lowest career ERA (an it's not even close) for any starter with 2000 or more innings since 1950. His 2.48 is nearly 30 points lower than Whitey Ford's 2.75 which ranks #2.
Man, there was so much good pitching in the 70s. All those above plus Cuellar, Guidry, Wilbur Wood, Richard, etc... all had great seasons but not careers that were HOF-worthy.
@BBBrkrr said:
Man, there was so much good pitching in the 70s. All those above plus Cuellar, Guidry, Wilbur Wood, Richard, etc... all had great seasons but not careers that were HOF-worthy.
Guidry would have likely strolled into the HOF if his shoulder/elbow issues hadn't ended his career early. He still has an outside shot someday. Maybe.
@coolstanley said:
So Pujols and Henderson never used steroids?
Have you looked at how flabby Pujols looked for much of his career. Even when he was in his best shape, his arms were pretty average size for a baseball player with no muscle definition. He was simply a baseball genius.
In the mid 2000s he was featured on Muscle Magazine, and they had to photoshop his arms to make them look ripped. Compare it to his Sports Illustrated cover around the same time.... Average baseball arms.
@musicfan123 said:
Ty Cobb's legacy ... which is alive and well.
Never won a championship and only 1 MVP, I guess he wasnt that good and didn't put out much of an effort.
There were no MVPs until 1931 or Cobb would have had his share.
My response was intended to be an example of why MVP's and Champuonships are a poor way of judging greatness.
I also believe at one time players were only allowed to win 1 MVP.
No one is using MVP's and Championships as criteria for greatness, but it is a factor that you seem to count as nothing.
When you compare modern day SS's how can you not factor in Seager's 2 WS MVP's? Him getting into the rare air of only four players to have won World Series MVP award multiple times. Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Reggie Jackson and Corey Seager have won the award twice and that makes him special.
Championships are team accomplishments, nothing more needs to be said here.
The MVP and Cy Young awards are also not very often given to the best player.
Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle should each have about 8 MVP's. Look at 1951 Williams was THIRTEENTH!
I believe one year when Williams finished second, a writer left him completely of his ballot out of spite.
Look at the 1990 Cy Young award, Bob Welch over Roger Clemens. Look at 2 years later, Clemens was again the best and a reliever who pitched 80 innings wins it.
No, I'll look at how an individual performs to determine his greatness.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@musicfan123 said:
Ty Cobb's legacy ... which is alive and well.
Never won a championship and only 1 MVP, I guess he wasnt that good and didn't put out much of an effort.
There were no MVPs until 1931 or Cobb would have had his share.
My response was intended to be an example of why MVP's and Champuonships are a poor way of judging greatness.
I also believe at one time players were only allowed to win 1 MVP.
No one is using MVP's and Championships as criteria for greatness, but it is a factor that you seem to count as nothing.
When you compare modern day SS's how can you not factor in Seager's 2 WS MVP's? Him getting into the rare air of only four players to have won World Series MVP award multiple times. Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Reggie Jackson and Corey Seager have won the award twice and that makes him special.
Seager can't stay healthy, 4 full seasons out of 10 means we probably won't be discussing him as an all time great. In those 4 years he averaged 123 OPS+.
He does seem to play very well in the post season though.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle should each have about 8 MVP's. Look at 1951 Williams was THIRTEENTH!
I believe one year when Williams finished second, a writer left him completely of his ballot out of spite.
Ted Williams won 2 MVP awards, 2 Triple Crowns, hit .406, and hit .388, and hit .369. All of them in different seasons.
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
He's been able to play 3 full seasons out of 7 and you're guessing he has 7 more good, full seasons?
I hope he can stay healthy, but his arm might not make another 7 seasons.
So in 7-10 years he may become the all time greatest, but with his injury history, I doubt it.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Again, I’m thinking you’ve got to be more than just a hitter and great stats. Greatest living ball player - to me - means a true 6 tool player.
6 tool?
I agree he should be in the conversation. Was he a good enough hitter? 112 OPS+ is a bit low.
Yes. Different era; he set the power standard for shortstops in the pre-steroid era.
Excellent defender at SS and then 3B, 3000 hits, 400 HR, Iron Man record, class act, baseball family, right age.
The crown will go to Pujols eventually.
Vladimir Guerrero deserves some love to; it was mostly Montreal and LA but he was a mighty 6 tool player, too.
Hitting wise, I think Pujols is the best, I don't know if it elevates him past Griffey and I agree on Ripken, he was unbelievably durable.
Vladimir was one of my favorites too, but I'm not sure he's quite as good as the others. Tremendous arm.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle should each have about 8 MVP's. Look at 1951 Williams was THIRTEENTH!
I believe one year when Williams finished second, a writer left him completely of his ballot out of spite.
Ted Williams won 2 MVP awards, 2 Triple Crowns, hit .406, and hit .388, and hit .369. All of them in different seasons.
Both triple crown years and the .406 season, he did NOT win MVP.
Ridiculous.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle should each have about 8 MVP's. Look at 1951 Williams was THIRTEENTH!
I believe one year when Williams finished second, a writer left him completely of his ballot out of spite.
Ted Williams won 2 MVP awards, 2 Triple Crowns, hit .406, and hit .388, and hit .369. All of them in different seasons.
Both triple crown years and the .406 season, he did NOT win MVP.
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
He's been able to play 3 full seasons out of 7 and you're guessing he has 7 more good, full seasons?
I hope he can stay healthy, but his arm might not make another 7 seasons.
So in 7-10 years he may become the all time greatest, but with his injury history, I doubt it.
Pretty sure I started my opinion with a big "If" in there somewhere. Everyone went down the injury route in their 30s with Griffey, Pujols and now Trout. So yes, I will restate, 'IF' Ohtani can go 4 more seasons both pitching and hitting at a high level with the hardware and accolades to boot, he'll be in the conversation of "Greatest Living Player". Heck, I'm not even counting this season where I'm pretty confident with Mookie going down he's leading the MVP race. MVP1,MVP2,MVP1 and then MVP1 or 2 barring injury. That's a 4 season ATG run if I've seen one. Throw in the 4 more I'm talking about and that's 8 ATG seasons. Those would be his 30-33 year old seasons when men are supposed to be in their prime. If not, oh gawd damn well.
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
He's been able to play 3 full seasons out of 7 and you're guessing he has 7 more good, full seasons?
I hope he can stay healthy, but his arm might not make another 7 seasons.
So in 7-10 years he may become the all time greatest, but with his injury history, I doubt it.
Pretty sure I started my opinion with a big "If" in there somewhere. Everyone went down the injury route in their 30s with Griffey, Pujols and now Trout. So yes, I will restate, 'IF' Ohtani can go 4 more seasons both pitching and hitting at a high level with the hardware and accolades to boot, he'll be in the conversation of "Greatest Living Player". Heck, I'm not even counting this season where I'm pretty confident with Mookie going down he's leading the MVP race. MVP1,MVP2,MVP1 and then MVP1 or 2 barring injury. That's a 4 season ATG run if I've seen one. Throw in the 4 more I'm talking about and that's 8 ATG seasons. Those would be his 30-33 year old seasons when men are supposed to be in their prime. If not, oh gawd damn well.
It's certainly possible.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
He's been able to play 3 full seasons out of 7 and you're guessing he has 7 more good, full seasons?
I hope he can stay healthy, but his arm might not make another 7 seasons.
So in 7-10 years he may become the all time greatest, but with his injury history, I doubt it.
Be careful any negativity regarding Ohtani here may get you shunned. Many here with large "investments"
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Nolan Ryan is one of those guys that gets people talking out of both sides of their mouth - myself included. He basically played for four teams that were pretty much poorly run. He has no major awards and limited though solid postseason numbers. Ryan was a great player on many bad teams. He probably walked too many guys and that is mostly because he tried to strike everyone out. His career WAR (83.3) is 20th all time among pitchers. In an era that valued wins, he didn’t have too many of them. He could be inconsistent but also threw 222 complete games and 7 no hitters, lead the league in ERA twice and finished with an ERA below 3.00 7 times and an ERA north of 4.00 just once (4.88, age 46, final season) in a 27 year career.
Given the era he played in, I imagine if he’d been a Yankee, a Dodger, an Oriole and a Red instead of a Met, an Angel, an Astro and a Ranger, there is a pretty good chance he’d be considered the best pitcher of all time.
Again, a funny player to evaluate among the pantheon of all time great pitchers. But damn if I wouldn’t want him in any era: tough as nails, nasty, throws gas, logs massive innings and pitches at a very high level in 26 of 27 seasons.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@PatriotTrading said:
If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
He's been able to play 3 full seasons out of 7 and you're guessing he has 7 more good, full seasons?
I hope he can stay healthy, but his arm might not make another 7 seasons.
So in 7-10 years he may become the all time greatest, but with his injury history, I doubt it.
Be careful any negativity regarding Ohtani here may get you shunned. Many here with large "investments"
Not negativity, just looking at his career so far and some pretty major injuries. Guys usually get hurt more as they age.
I hope he wins the MVP every season for the next 10 years.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
Good thing he didn't play for my Minnesota Twins, he probably wouldn't be in the HOF.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
Good thing he didn't play for my Minnesota Twins, he probably wouldn't be in the HOF.
C’mon.
Derek Jeter is a top 5-10 shortstop all time depending on where you want to put him.
Barry Larkin - a very similar player within the same era who was playing in Cincinnati - made the Hall of Fame on merit, also.
Also, had he been on those talented early 2000s Twins teams, maybe he pushes them past the Yankees. They had some very talented teams with Hunter, Mourneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Jacque Jones with Radke and Santana and Nathan. Say what you want about Jeter but he was a high quality baseball player all around. A few clowns from Boston anonymously publish a list of metrics declaring him the ‘worst defensive shortstop in baseball’ and all of a sudden he’s a terrible defender. I watched him his entire career. He was not a top notch defender but he was definitely above average.
And I still have yet to see a decent defensive metric list that isn’t wildly inaccurate somewhere along the line.
At some point, you have to watch the games and not just look at the stats. The big plays and big moments are not always box score visible.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I think that with Pete Rose getting so many mentions and Mike Schmidt so few that you kind of have to take most of these posts with a grain of salt.
No I am not saying Schmidt is the greatest living player although he is way up there.
I’m saying Schmidt was a much, much better player than Rose and there is no set of statistics you can produce that would prove otherwise.
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
Good thing he didn't play for my Minnesota Twins, he probably wouldn't be in the HOF.
C’mon.
Derek Jeter is a top 5-10 shortstop all time depending on where you want to put him.
Barry Larkin - a very similar player within the same era who was playing in Cincinnati - made the Hall of Fame on merit, also.
Also, had he been on those talented early 2000s Twins teams, maybe he pushes them past the Yankees. They had some very talented teams with Hunter, Mourneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Jacque Jones with Radke and Santana and Nathan. Say what you want about Jeter but he was a high quality baseball player all around. A few clowns from Boston anonymously publish a list of metrics declaring him the ‘worst defensive shortstop in baseball’ and all of a sudden he’s a terrible defender. I watched him his entire career. He was not a top notch defender but he was definitely above average.
And I still have yet to see a decent defensive metric list that isn’t wildly inaccurate somewhere along the line.
At some point, you have to watch the games and not just look at the stats. The big plays and big moments are not always box score visible.
Of course I was kidding on the hof.
That guy ALWAYS seemed to beat the Twins in the playoffs.
As far as his defense, I think he was fine. Heck. Vizquel won 27 gold gloves and he totally sucked defensively, according to some.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
Good thing he didn't play for my Minnesota Twins, he probably wouldn't be in the HOF.
I have to give you credit, that was a great comeback!
Part of the reason he was drafted sixth overall was his leadership, and he would have brought those championship qualities to a Twins Team that struggled at SS for years. Instead you had Christian Guzman with a career 12.6 WAR and a slew of other trashy SS's that followed him. Plus, if you had Jeter he would not have eaten you up in all of those playoff series: 2003 3 - 1, 2004 3-1, 2009 3-0, and 2010 3-0. Getting crushed like that would probably have me hating winners too!
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1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
Good thing he didn't play for my Minnesota Twins, he probably wouldn't be in the HOF.
I have to give you credit, that was a great comeback!
Part of the reason he was drafted sixth overall was his leadership, and he would have brought those championship qualities to a Twins Team that struggled at SS for years. Instead you had Christian Guzman with a career 12.6 WAR and a slew of other trashy SS's that followed him. Plus, if you had Jeter he would not have eaten you up in all of those playoff series: 2003 3 - 1, 2004 3-1, 2009 3-0, and 2010 3-0. Getting crushed like that would probably have me hating winners too!
Funny you mention the word hate. I never really hated the Yankees like a lot of people, but after getting crushed every year in the playoffs, I did get my hate on.
Gradually getting over that. I always respected Jeter, even when he seemed to always get a key hit to beat us.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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Net54 did a poll. About 250 people voted. Bonds was first with 28% Koufax second with 14% nobody else received even 10% of the vote. I think a similar poll here would come out different but bet Bonds would be the top vote getter.
There were no MVPs until 1931 or Cobb would have had his share.
Nm> @Tabe said:
To be clear, it’s officially MLB’s choice for greatest living players as Sandy Koufax and Johnny Bench.
Personally, I have a hard time giving it to a pitcher.
This completely made up title first appeared by request of Joe DiMaggio (some say as a way of tweaking his peers, especially Ted Williams) and you could argue it wasn’t even the case then - Mays, Hank, Musial, Mickey and Ted and several others could have been considered more deserving of the title when Joe held it. Upon his death, the title then went to Ted Williams and then MLB stepped on (I mean in) and gave it to the four aforementioned men. And with the passing of Aaron and now Mays, there are only two men that remain. (At the time the list was put out, I thought it was a slight to leave Yogi Berra off that list as he was still alive at the time.)
I also believe, on some level, that many of the guys mentioned are still too young to hold the title as it wasn’t until nearly twenty years after he retired that Joltin’ Joe updated his moniker.
I have always though there was an elder statesmen element to whom deserves the award; younguns like Griffey, Bonds, Clemens, Maddux et al can wait their turn a little while longer. But that’s just me.
😉
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@countdouglas said:
Trouty over here like, "Why am I catching strays in this conversation?" Lol
.
Trouty dominates the disabled list like nobody in history.
Before his reign is over he will set records for most time spent not earning his salary that will never be broken
His teammate Anthony Rendon is giving him a run for his money on not earning his salary
Awards and championships are a factor and do change how we perceive certain players. There have and always will be players that step up in the biggest moments: Corey Seager is one of the most recent but the list is long: Bumgarner, Schilling, Hershiser, Morris, Jackson, Gibson, Berra, etc.
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My response was intended to be an example of why MVP's and Champuonships are a poor way of judging greatness.
I also believe at one time players were only allowed to win 1 MVP.
No one is using MVP's and Championships as criteria for greatness, but it is a factor that you seem to count as nothing.
When you compare modern day SS's how can you not factor in Seager's 2 WS MVP's? Him getting into the rare air of only four players to have won World Series MVP award multiple times. Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Reggie Jackson and Corey Seager have won the award twice and that makes him special.
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Rose and Koufax were mentioned outside of the MLB list. And I'm ignoring their selections anyway
I tend to think Jim Palmer is the most underappreciated Hall of Famer post-1950. He was the best pitcher in the decade of the 1970's. The 1970's were dominated by great pitchers like Seaver, Carlton, Perry, Jenkins, Hunter, Blue, Ryan, Tiant, Sutton, and more so that is saying something.
3x Cy Young Winner (8x top 5 finishes in the Cy Young)
3x WS Winner (8-3 2.63 in the playoffs)
All-Time record of 268-152 2.86 ERA 2202 K's 53 shutouts
4th lowest career ERA for any starter with more than 2000 innings pitched since 1950. It's worth mentioning that Clayton Kershaw has the lowest career ERA (an it's not even close) for any starter with 2000 or more innings since 1950. His 2.48 is nearly 30 points lower than Whitey Ford's 2.75 which ranks #2.
Man, there was so much good pitching in the 70s. All those above plus Cuellar, Guidry, Wilbur Wood, Richard, etc... all had great seasons but not careers that were HOF-worthy.
Guidry would have likely strolled into the HOF if his shoulder/elbow issues hadn't ended his career early. He still has an outside shot someday. Maybe.
Julio Rodriguez. LOL
Every era has the pitchers that burn out look at Santana and Lincecum.
Have you looked at how flabby Pujols looked for much of his career. Even when he was in his best shape, his arms were pretty average size for a baseball player with no muscle definition. He was simply a baseball genius.
In the mid 2000s he was featured on Muscle Magazine, and they had to photoshop his arms to make them look ripped. Compare it to his Sports Illustrated cover around the same time.... Average baseball arms.
The man could hit.... Period.
Shane
Championships are team accomplishments, nothing more needs to be said here.
The MVP and Cy Young awards are also not very often given to the best player.
Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle should each have about 8 MVP's. Look at 1951 Williams was THIRTEENTH!
I believe one year when Williams finished second, a writer left him completely of his ballot out of spite.
Look at the 1990 Cy Young award, Bob Welch over Roger Clemens. Look at 2 years later, Clemens was again the best and a reliever who pitched 80 innings wins it.
No, I'll look at how an individual performs to determine his greatness.
Seager can't stay healthy, 4 full seasons out of 10 means we probably won't be discussing him as an all time great. In those 4 years he averaged 123 OPS+.
He does seem to play very well in the post season though.
Sorry to keep bring up Pujols, but I think this is interesting.
The 3,000 hit club has 33 members.
Seven are also in the 500 HR club.
Three of those seven had 2,000 RBI's.
ONE of those three (in the entire history of the sport) has won 2 Championships.
His name is - Albert Pujols
Shane
After contemplating this for a few days, I have to agree with Albert Pujols, with Pete Rose being second.
>
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If you get another 4 seasons of Ohtani pitching & hitting at a high level, it'll be him for a long time. You can see what he's capable of as a focused hitter this seasons. Throw in some hardware and he'll be hard to top.
Anybody mention Cal Ripken?
Again, I’m thinking you’ve got to be more than just a hitter and great stats. Greatest living ball player - to me - means a true 6 tool player.
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Ted Williams won 2 MVP awards, 2 Triple Crowns, hit .406, and hit .388, and hit .369. All of them in different seasons.
He has 3 full seasons so far. I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.
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>
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6 tool?
I agree he should be in the conversation. Was he a good enough hitter? 112 OPS+ is a bit low.
Well, no shi*t, that's the point of the comment. But 7 seasons with another MVP or two and a potential World Series Championship doing something NOBODY except Babe Ruth has done sounds like a pretty special player on that All-Time level and particularly "Greatest Living Player". The last I checked, every other living player was one-dimensional including Rose, Ryan, Pujols, Trout and whomever you want to toss in there.
Griffey Jr. wasn’t one dimensional.
Yes, six tool.
1) Hitting for Power
2) Hitting for Average
3) Fielding Ability
4) Throwing Ability
5) Running Speed
Those are the classic five and I like to add:
6) Cerebral Ability
I think it’s underrated, undervalued but understood. Maybe hard to quantify but you can see it in some players and not others.
There were/are certain players that just seemed to play a smarter brand of baseball than others.
Cal Ripken seemed to know the game inside and out and have all the tools you could want in a baseball player. He certainly had ups and downs but considering the entirety of his career, his age and his accomplishments I think he’d be an excellent name worthy of consideration.
And as a Yankee fan, I was not a Ripken fan as he usually stuck it to us. 😉
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Yes. Different era; he set the power standard for shortstops in the pre-steroid era.
Excellent defender at SS and then 3B, 3000 hits, 400 HR, Iron Man record, class act, baseball family, right age.
The crown will go to Pujols eventually.
Vladimir Guerrero deserves some love to; it was mostly Montreal and LA but he was a mighty 6 tool player, too.
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He's been able to play 3 full seasons out of 7 and you're guessing he has 7 more good, full seasons?
I hope he can stay healthy, but his arm might not make another 7 seasons.
So in 7-10 years he may become the all time greatest, but with his injury history, I doubt it.
Hitting wise, I think Pujols is the best, I don't know if it elevates him past Griffey and I agree on Ripken, he was unbelievably durable.
Vladimir was one of my favorites too, but I'm not sure he's quite as good as the others. Tremendous arm.
Both triple crown years and the .406 season, he did NOT win MVP.
Ridiculous.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's insane.
Don't take offense, you know that I mean pitching vs hitting.
Pretty sure I started my opinion with a big "If" in there somewhere. Everyone went down the injury route in their 30s with Griffey, Pujols and now Trout. So yes, I will restate, 'IF' Ohtani can go 4 more seasons both pitching and hitting at a high level with the hardware and accolades to boot, he'll be in the conversation of "Greatest Living Player". Heck, I'm not even counting this season where I'm pretty confident with Mookie going down he's leading the MVP race. MVP1,MVP2,MVP1 and then MVP1 or 2 barring injury. That's a 4 season ATG run if I've seen one. Throw in the 4 more I'm talking about and that's 8 ATG seasons. Those would be his 30-33 year old seasons when men are supposed to be in their prime. If not, oh gawd damn well.
It's certainly possible.
Haha. I didn’t before. My bad for not paying enough attention to the context in the discussion there.
6) Cerebral Ability has Jeter's name all over it. But wait his Championships don't count for much to some folks.
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Be careful any negativity regarding Ohtani here may get you shunned. Many here with large "investments"
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Nolan Ryan is one of those guys that gets people talking out of both sides of their mouth - myself included. He basically played for four teams that were pretty much poorly run. He has no major awards and limited though solid postseason numbers. Ryan was a great player on many bad teams. He probably walked too many guys and that is mostly because he tried to strike everyone out. His career WAR (83.3) is 20th all time among pitchers. In an era that valued wins, he didn’t have too many of them. He could be inconsistent but also threw 222 complete games and 7 no hitters, lead the league in ERA twice and finished with an ERA below 3.00 7 times and an ERA north of 4.00 just once (4.88, age 46, final season) in a 27 year career.
Given the era he played in, I imagine if he’d been a Yankee, a Dodger, an Oriole and a Red instead of a Met, an Angel, an Astro and a Ranger, there is a pretty good chance he’d be considered the best pitcher of all time.
Again, a funny player to evaluate among the pantheon of all time great pitchers. But damn if I wouldn’t want him in any era: tough as nails, nasty, throws gas, logs massive innings and pitches at a very high level in 26 of 27 seasons.
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Not negativity, just looking at his career so far and some pretty major injuries. Guys usually get hurt more as they age.
I hope he wins the MVP every season for the next 10 years.
Good thing he didn't play for my Minnesota Twins, he probably wouldn't be in the HOF.
C’mon.
Derek Jeter is a top 5-10 shortstop all time depending on where you want to put him.
Barry Larkin - a very similar player within the same era who was playing in Cincinnati - made the Hall of Fame on merit, also.
Also, had he been on those talented early 2000s Twins teams, maybe he pushes them past the Yankees. They had some very talented teams with Hunter, Mourneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Jacque Jones with Radke and Santana and Nathan. Say what you want about Jeter but he was a high quality baseball player all around. A few clowns from Boston anonymously publish a list of metrics declaring him the ‘worst defensive shortstop in baseball’ and all of a sudden he’s a terrible defender. I watched him his entire career. He was not a top notch defender but he was definitely above average.
And I still have yet to see a decent defensive metric list that isn’t wildly inaccurate somewhere along the line.
At some point, you have to watch the games and not just look at the stats. The big plays and big moments are not always box score visible.
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I think that with Pete Rose getting so many mentions and Mike Schmidt so few that you kind of have to take most of these posts with a grain of salt.
No I am not saying Schmidt is the greatest living player although he is way up there.
I’m saying Schmidt was a much, much better player than Rose and there is no set of statistics you can produce that would prove otherwise.
Of course I was kidding on the hof.
That guy ALWAYS seemed to beat the Twins in the playoffs.
As far as his defense, I think he was fine. Heck. Vizquel won 27 gold gloves and he totally sucked defensively, according to some.
I admit that I purchase more Mike Schmidt cards than I do Pete Rose cards. I have Schmidt in my top 50 and he might be close to top 25.
Pretty sure EDLC ranks ahead of Jeter at Short...
I have to give you credit, that was a great comeback!
Part of the reason he was drafted sixth overall was his leadership, and he would have brought those championship qualities to a Twins Team that struggled at SS for years. Instead you had Christian Guzman with a career 12.6 WAR and a slew of other trashy SS's that followed him. Plus, if you had Jeter he would not have eaten you up in all of those playoff series: 2003 3 - 1, 2004 3-1, 2009 3-0, and 2010 3-0. Getting crushed like that would probably have me hating winners too!
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Funny you mention the word hate. I never really hated the Yankees like a lot of people, but after getting crushed every year in the playoffs, I did get my hate on.
Gradually getting over that. I always respected Jeter, even when he seemed to always get a key hit to beat us.