Actually it was six out of eight that were downgraded. The coins were bought long ago. They were not in PCGS holders so rather than submitting them to PCGS and then CAC I felt it was more cost effective to send them to CACG. I'm not a dealer so I was more concerned that my heirs would ultimately learn of my poor judgement.
@Cougar1978 said:
I know one guy going the other way - cracking CACG get higher grade somewhere else. One of his angles making money,
I’m sure that’s happening due to the presumably more conservative nature of CACG grading. I would think more than one person is doing that. However, I’ve also heard that the CACG holders are super difficult to crack open, so one does risk damaging the coin.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Have never tried crack one of CACG holders but believe that would be a difficult operation. Perhaps they (experienced modeler) practiced on the sample slabs then arrived at right mix surgical tools (vice, saber saw, modelers hammer, pliers) / procedure in fine tuning that skill set.
By now, I have seen hundreds and hundreds of CACG coins, and certainly thousands of certified/stickered coins. As much as most commenters seem intent on being in one camp or another, I feel like CACG grading is scarcely different from that of NGC or PCGS.
That being said, I own zero CACG coins right now, but not because of bias against them - I just haven't happened to land on a coin that I need in one of their holders.
By now, I have seen hundreds and hundreds of CACG coins, and certainly thousands of certified/stickered coins. As much as most commenters seem intent on being in one camp or another, I feel like CACG grading is scarcely different from that of NGC or PCGS.
That being said, I own zero CACG coins right now, but not because of bias against them - I just haven't happened to land on a coin that I need in one of their holders.
CACG coins are just like CAC-stickered coins. That means problems on coins that would make them fail at CAC don't make it into CACG.............. I have seen 100s and 100s of all, seen a lotta dogs in other TPG holders, but very rarely when they are stickered.
@Cougar1978 said:
Having 3 out of 5 downgraded would not be for me. Can’t make any money that way. Can you specify minimum grade on form with them? Even then increase in MV vs grading costs can be iffy (positive result). Our offense based on positive yardage not pitch back then lose yardage.
@Cougar1978 said:
I know one guy going the other way - cracking CACG get higher grade somewhere else. One of his angles making money,
I’m sure that’s happening due to the presumably more conservative nature of CACG grading. I would think more than one person is doing that. However, I’ve also heard that the CACG holders are super difficult to crack open, so one does risk damaging the coin.
The one CACG coin I cracked out was actually pretty easy. I liked how the holder stayed intact as I separated the front and back, but perhaps it's all in the method. But really, no more or less effort that PCGS or NGC holder.
@Cougar1978 said:
I know one guy going the other way - cracking CACG get higher grade somewhere else. One of his angles making money,
I’m sure that’s happening due to the presumably more conservative nature of CACG grading. I would think more than one person is doing that. However, I’ve also heard that the CACG holders are super difficult to crack open, so one does risk damaging the coin.
The one CACG coin I cracked out was actually pretty easy. I liked how the holder stayed intact as I separated the front and back, but perhaps it's all in the method. But really, no more or less effort that PCGS or NGC holder.
For those that do crack out coins (not me), that’s good news. The little I had heard was contrary to that, but again, a limited sample. Thanks for sharing.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@PerryHall said:
I think the point that @FrankH is making is that expensive trophy coins aren't immune to market corrections.
Very few Trophy Coins appreciate at even competitive levels to stocks over the long term. For many of the ones I've time-tested, it seems to be about 5-7%. The recent Bass 1850 Proof Liberty Head DE was the exception as it was purchased before the price of gold rose in the 1970's at about $2,000. It returned about 12% a year until it was recently sold.
When applying for a coin asset based line of credit for my bank, I showed them actual prices realized that proved the ultra rarities did exceptionally well over time vs a diverse stock index. I like to think of it as they will do as well as the 2nd most successful investor who desires them.
When applying for a coin asset based line of credit for my bank, I showed them actual prices realized that proved the ultra rarities did exceptionally well over time vs a diverse stock index.
If I were your bank, I'd weigh other assets in the mix.
@lermish said:
The issue is that there is a contact mark under RT. JA thinks it was tooled rather than a contact mark.
What would be the purpose of tooling in the field ?
The thinking is that it was removing/hiding a larger issue of some sort. JA is obviously among the leading graders of all time (if not the best) so my opinion certainly doesn't carry as much weight as his. That being said, I don't necessarily agree with his assessment and I do think it is most likely a contact mark/s of some sort.
@Cougar1978 said:
Any CACG even out there at decent price? My high offer or bid - 10 pct behind CDN bid.
Shouldn't a CACG coin generally be in the ballpark of a PCGS+CAC sticker for pricing ?
So depending on the coin and where in the grading spectrum relative to pricing inflection points....you could expect anywhere from a 10% to 30% price bump over a straight-PCGS coin, right ?
@Cougar1978 said:
I know one guy going the other way - cracking CACG here and there get higher grade somewhere else / make money. Not something I would do, spend money on - he’s real sharp hobbyist in that area, just picking off in and outs he sees.
Isn't that VERY dangerous and speculative ? Because we never, in all the years of PCGS coins trading at a premium to NGC, had people doing this with PCGS coins and crossing over to NGC for higher grades. If anything, folks did the opposite and hoped for the same grade and even grudgingly accepted a 1-grade drop going from NGC to PCGS, right ?
Going from CACG to PCGS would only work over time if you believed that PCGS coins held their value even if they often/always traded at a discount to CACG, much as NGC did relative to PCGS. Except in this case you are banking/hoping that the long-established credibility of PCGS will hold up based on reputation and price and not suffer a drop with top collections not feeling they all need to end up in CACG holders.
Some might, but as long as it's not the same % as PCGS today, then I guess that game can work.
@DisneyFan said: @cameonut2011 said:
I have noticed several large coin dealers including Legend over the years take nice NGC coins that are lower end or minimally over graded and downgrade them to a PCGS plus grade for the interval below. The coin now CACs, and the dealer enjoys a nice payout. Those that won’t even look at non CAC coins will never experience the joy of the resulting pay day.
So you're saying that a Lower Grade + CAC sticker > Higher Grade (and slightly overgraded) ? I'm sure there are examples of that, but I always thought that unless the highger-graded coin was REALLY problematic for the grade that the lower-graded coin + CAC sticker should only close "the gap" between the two coins in pricing.
I do know that the owner of a 1927-D Saint a while back had it re-graded LOWER just to get a CAC sticker but I'm not sure that was done for $$$ reasons. JA bought the coin for a client who wanted a CAC 1927-D so it went from PCGS MS-66 to NGC MS-65+ (this is the Connecticut--Muller coin which I believe is the 4th nicest 1927-D). Maybe that person is on these forums and can chime in.
Here are my random thoughts, in no particular order @GoldFinger1969 on the recent comments:
My sense is CACG grading in general is more conservative than grading at PCGS. As such, as @Cougar1978 relates, the potential is there for sharp eyed collectors/dealers to crack certain CACG coins if they feel the grade from the raw coin submitted to PCGS would result in the next higher grade level. This will likely not work with three figure coins where the pricing differential is not that great. But with many four figure coins and higher, going from a 64 or 64+ to a 65 can potentially provide a very nice bump, even without a CAC sticker. More so for going from a 65 or 65+ to a 66. True, those newly graded PCGS coins might not sticker, but market value differentiation can still be significant. Using common date Peace Dollars, compare the values of 66 and 66+ to those graded 67. A giant difference, even without a CAC sticker on the 67. Again, the person needs to know what they’re doing to end up with a high success rate. I’m not that person, lol.
On a separate issue, at this point, CACG coins have less demand than CAC stickered PCGS coins in the same grade. That’s due to several reasons - collector familiarity with PCGS, and the large popularity among collectors of upper three figure value coins and higher of the PCGS Registry (which does not allow coins graded by CACG). As such, take a look at the # of serious auction bidders for two coins, same whole grade, similar eye appeal, one graded by CACG, the other graded by PCGS and has a CAC sticker. My sense is the latter would usually have more serious bids made.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
1. My sense is CACG grading in general is more conservative than grading at PCGS. As such, as @Cougar1978 relates, the potential is there for sharp eyed collectors/dealers to crack certain CACG coins if they feel the grade from the raw coin submitted to PCGS would result in the next higher grade level. This will likely not work with three figure coins where the pricing differential is not that great. But with many four figure coins and higher, going from a 64 or 64+ to a 65 can potentially provide a very nice bump, even without a CAC sticker. More so for going from a 65 or 65+ to a 66. True, those newly graded PCGS coins might not sticker, but market value differentiation can still be significant. Using common date Peace Dollars, compare the values of 66 and 66+ to those graded 67. A giant difference, even without a CAC sticker on the 67. Again, the person needs to know what they’re doing to end up with a high success rate. I’m not that person, lol.
Excellent commentary WS. Would you say that instead of everybody in the past re-submitting many times to PCGS to catch that borderline upgrade that now it is CACG-to-PCGS instead of PCGS-to-PCGS ?
On a separate issue, at this point, CACG coins have less demand than CAC stickered PCGS coins in the same grade. That’s due to several reasons - collector familiarity with PCGS, the large popularity among collectors of upper three figure value coins and higher of the PCGS Registry (which does not allow coins graded by CACG). As such, take a look at the # of serious auction bidders for two coins, same whole grade, similar eye appeal, one graded by CACG, the other graded by PCGS and has a CAC sticker. My sense is the latter would usually have more serious bids made.
Makes sense, I agree, admittedly not my area of expertise.
I don’t have the time or inclination to play the grading game, but if I did IMO any gain would be in the near term. I’m very optimistic about the longer-term prospects for CACG, which is my horizon (with luck).
@winesteven said:
1. My sense is CACG grading in general is more conservative than grading at PCGS. As such, as @Cougar1978 relates, the potential is there for sharp eyed collectors/dealers to crack certain CACG coins if they feel the grade from the raw coin submitted to PCGS would result in the next higher grade level. This will likely not work with three figure coins where the pricing differential is not that great. But with many four figure coins and higher, going from a 64 or 64+ to a 65 can potentially provide a very nice bump, even without a CAC sticker. More so for going from a 65 or 65+ to a 66. True, those newly graded PCGS coins might not sticker, but market value differentiation can still be significant. Using common date Peace Dollars, compare the values of 66 and 66+ to those graded 67. A giant difference, even without a CAC sticker on the 67. Again, the person needs to know what they’re doing to end up with a high success rate. I’m not that person, lol.
Excellent commentary WS. Would you say that instead of everybody in the past re-submitting many times to PCGS to catch that borderline upgrade, that now it is CACG-to-PCGS instead of PCGS-to-PCGS ?
As long as sharp eyed collectors and dealers can make money playing this game, BOTH strategies will continue!
A well known dealer who does the show circuit told me that at most shows he makes more profit with his Show Submissions than he does on bourse sales! Don’t bother sending me a PM. I won’t share the name.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
1. My sense is CACG grading in general is more conservative than grading at PCGS. As such, as @Cougar1978 relates, the potential is there for sharp eyed collectors/dealers to crack certain CACG coins if they feel the grade from the raw coin submitted to PCGS would result in the next higher grade level. This will likely not work with three figure coins where the pricing differential is not that great. But with many four figure coins and higher, going from a 64 or 64+ to a 65 can potentially provide a very nice bump, even without a CAC sticker. More so for going from a 65 or 65+ to a 66. True, those newly graded PCGS coins might not sticker, but market value differentiation can still be significant. Using common date Peace Dollars, compare the values of 66 and 66+ to those graded 67. A giant difference, even without a CAC sticker on the 67. Again, the person needs to know what they’re doing to end up with a high success rate. I’m not that person, lol.
Excellent commentary WS. Would you say that instead of everybody in the past re-submitting many times to PCGS to catch that borderline upgrade, that now it is CACG-to-PCGS instead of PCGS-to-PCGS ?
As long as sharp eyed collectors and dealers can make money playing this game, BOTH strategies will continue!
A well known dealer who does the show circuit told me that at most shows he makes more profit with his Show Submissions than he does on bourse sales! Don’t bother sending me a PM. I won’t share the name.
Steve
No problem, no PMs....what was your email again? 😅😉
My current stance in this CAC issue (sticker vs CACG) I simply refer to CDN Bid / CPG for CAC in pricing (consistency). I currently own about a slab box of CACG and at this time don't have the sticker ones (sold out). I certainly would buy stickered if offered to me off the bourse at a show if deal there. At last show setup retailed 4 CACG.
now this is an interesting thread, so I will now kick my cats off the recliner to read it all the way through. stay tuned, as if I would have anything to add, outside of paying for dinner via credit card roulette.
Both companies do a superb job of grading coins. CACG is a bit more harsh, just judging from PCGS, NGC, and CACG grade reveal videos on YouTube. (If you haven't watched any of them, it is worth your time if you are trying to decide on a TGP to submit coins to.)
I personally stick to PCGS graded coins in my collection. I do not care for NGC's holders, nor CACG's holders. I do own CAC stickered PCGS graded coins, but the green bean has never mattered that much to me. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I do concede that coins seem easier to sell then they have the green bean but I have been in the hobby long enough to be able to grade most US coins with some accuracy, so I don't need CAC telling me which coins are superior for the grade. I am able to tell that on my own.
Best regards, Dwayne F. Sessom Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
@Twobitcollector said:
Well, I hate say it ,but I still buy the coin regardless of the holder or sticker.
Most everyone does. The issue really becomes one of price. The identical coin in a PCGS 65 holder will undoubtedly cost you more than in a 64 holder. So, in some sense, you are also buying the holder.
@dsessom said:
Both companies do a superb job of grading coins. CACG is a bit more harsh, just judging from PCGS, NGC, and CACG grade reveal videos on YouTube. (If you haven't watched any of them, it is worth your time if you are trying to decide on a TGP to submit coins to.)
I personally stick to PCGS graded coins in my collection. I do not care for NGC's holders, nor CACG's holders. I do own CAC stickered PCGS graded coins, but the green bean has never mattered that much to me. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I do concede that coins seem easier to sell then they have the green bean but I have been in the hobby long enough to be able to grade most US coins with some accuracy, so I don't need CAC telling me which coins are superior for the grade. I am able to tell that on my own.
I don’t dispute your skills one bit. But I would think you recognize that in addition to CAC stickered coins selling quicker, as a generalization they also sell for more than unstickered coins with similar eye appeal.
If by chance the vast majority of your coins are valued at three figures, I also agree with you that there’s no problem. But if a bunch of your coins are valued at four figures or higher, I believe that when the time comes for selling your coins, whether by you or your heirs, you’ll potentially be leaving significant money on the table by selling those nice coins without stickers.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@dsessom said:
Both companies do a superb job of grading coins. CACG is a bit more harsh, just judging from PCGS, NGC, and CACG grade reveal videos on YouTube. (If you haven't watched any of them, it is worth your time if you are trying to decide on a TGP to submit coins to.)
I personally stick to PCGS graded coins in my collection. I do not care for NGC's holders, nor CACG's holders. I do own CAC stickered PCGS graded coins, but the green bean has never mattered that much to me. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I do concede that coins seem easier to sell then they have the green bean but I have been in the hobby long enough to be able to grade most US coins with some accuracy, so I don't need CAC telling me which coins are superior for the grade. I am able to tell that on my own.
I don’t dispute your skills one bit. But I would think you recognize that in addition to CAC stickered coins selling quicker, as a generalization they also sell for more than unstickered coins with similar eye appeal.
If by chance the vast majority of your coins are valued at three figures, I also agree with you that there’s no problem. But if a bunch of your coins are valued at four figures or higher, I believe that when the time comes for selling your coins, whether by you or your heirs, you’ll potentially be leaving significant money on the table by selling those nice coins without stickers.
Steve
And that's a valid point, Steven. In general you would be absolutely correct. I am fortunate that my son is familiar with numismatics, although not to the extent that I am.
Best regards, Dwayne F. Sessom Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
@dsessom said:
Both companies do a superb job of grading coins. CACG is a bit more harsh, just judging from PCGS, NGC, and CACG grade reveal videos on YouTube. (If you haven't watched any of them, it is worth your time if you are trying to decide on a TGP to submit coins to.)
I personally stick to PCGS graded coins in my collection. I do not care for NGC's holders, nor CACG's holders. I do own CAC stickered PCGS graded coins, but the green bean has never mattered that much to me. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I do concede that coins seem easier to sell then they have the green bean but I have been in the hobby long enough to be able to grade most US coins with some accuracy, so I don't need CAC telling me which coins are superior for the grade. I am able to tell that on my own.
I don’t dispute your skills one bit. But I would think you recognize that in addition to CAC stickered coins selling quicker, as a generalization they also sell for more than unstickered coins with similar eye appeal.
If by chance the vast majority of your coins are valued at three figures, I also agree with you that there’s no problem. But if a bunch of your coins are valued at four figures or higher, I believe that when the time comes for selling your coins, whether by you or your heirs, you’ll potentially be leaving significant money on the table by selling those nice coins without stickers.
Steve
And that's a valid point, Steve. In general you would be absolutely correct. I am fortunate that my son is familiar with numismatics, although not to the extent that I am.
That’s great! So would you mention to him (or leave a critical note easily found) to send many of your valuable coins to CAC stickering before having them sold, or would you make it easier by just submitting them yourself?
I don’t know your age, and everyone’s Coin Collection “disposal” situation is different for MANY reasons. I’m 74, and I decided that if I’m fortunate enough to make it to 80, I’ll then sell my collection at that time. Recognizing the reality that there’s a possibility I may not make it to 80, I let my two adult children know where they will find detailed written instructions letting them know exactly who to contact and what arrangements to negotiate.
I share this, and I posed my initial question to you, because I believe way too often it’s left to the heirs to dispose of their spouse’s or parent’s collection. Typically, they know less than the collector, who was educated, and I believe they often receive a lot less than they otherwise could have received, which is a shame!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
That’s great! So would you mention to him (or leave a critical note easily found) to send many of your valuable coins to CAC stickering before having them sold, or would you make it easier by just submitting them yourself?
I don’t know your age, and everyone’s Coin Collection “disposal” situation is different for MANY reasons. I’m 74, and I decided that if I’m fortunate enough to make it to 80, I’ll then sell my collection at that time. Recognizing the reality that there’s a possibility I may not make it to 80, I let my two adult children know where they will find detailed written instructions letting them know exactly who to contact and what arrangements to negotiate.
I share this, and I posed my initial question to you, because I believe way too often it’s left to the heirs to dispose of their spouse’s or parent’s collection. Typically, they know less than the collector, who was educated, and I believe they often receive a lot less than they otherwise could have received!
Steve
I am going to be 55 years old on the 23rd of this month. Over the past year or two, my numismatic interests have started to change. For several reasons, I have found that collecting currency brings me as much or more joy than coins alone. For starters, my old eyes don't see as sharply as they once did. Sure, I can wear glasses or get corrective surgery, but is sure is nice to hold a note in my hand and be able to read most of it and see some details. Also, if we are strictly speaking about US coins and currency (no foreign stuff), there are FAR more different types, styles, designs, etc, of currency than coins. Especially if you get into obsolete currency, which I have fallen in love with!
So, I am currently selling off my PCGS Registry set of V Nickels https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874 to help fund my new passion for Confederate, Obsolete, and Colonial currency! It's a BIG rabbit hole, so I decided to liquidate one set of high end coins to help get started!
The coins that will remain in my collection will be mostly sub-$1000 US Type coins, with the exception of several gold coins.
The bottom line (for me personally) will be that CAC stickers don't matter at all. Many folks in numismatics act like a CAC green bean is important. It simply isn't. It just means that two different TGP's agree on the assigned grade. The coin has literally been graded twice (although CAC contends that this is not the case). I am glad that CACG is finally a reality though. This means that you can get a CAC approved coin with a single submission, and that makes far more sense in my mind.
I will close with this... I DO understand why many people adore the CAC green bean and the CAC golden egg. It's widely seen as a value adder to dealers and collectors alike. (Especially the gold sticker) These stickers ARE INDEED useful to less experienced collectors because they should indicate a higher quality coin than other comparable coins in the market. This is generally true, but I have seen CAC stickered coins that I would not touch, and adversely, plenty of coins out there with no sticker that are far better struck or have better eye appeal than some CAC stickered coins. I have been in the game a long time, and these are simply my observations. I have NOTHING against CAC at all. I'm glad that they are finally a primary TGP and am observing them to see how they stack up against PCGS and NGC. Maybe some day, if CACG comes up with a better holder, I will buy CACG coins. For now, I am holding off. I am pulling for them though because competition is always good.
Best regards, Dwayne F. Sessom Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
My oldest son/executor has instructions to use GC to sell US Federal coins and Heritage for everything else. GC will take care of stickering better coins so I don’t have to mess with it to preserve value. When CAC nears the time when they stop stickering, or if CACG really catches on, I may change tactics.
I have acquired (won a number below CAC bid -yay) and successful marketed CACG material which I prefer vs stickered. My new storage boxes that take all 5 TPG they fit nicely in - yay. I don’t have any stickered at this time but would purchase if part of say an estate deal or off the bourse offer / pickup at my price.
As mentioned...buy the coin not the holder. My exhibit...this 1917 Type 2 Standing Liberty Quarter PCGS Ms 67FH with NO CAC sticker recently sold at Stacks fora whopping $16,800.
It has lovely eye appeal, but that often has little to do with meriting a CAC sticker. Four questions:
I see from the cert # it was recently graded. Was it submitted to CAC for stickering? If not, the point is moot. If it was submitted and failed:
Did it fail because in CAC’s opinion it was not solid as a 67 (or worse)?
Did it fail because in CAC’s opinion it was not meriting the FH suffix?
Did it fail because it received a surface treatment that in CAC’s opinion is not acceptable, even though that treatment is acceptable to PCGS?
If I were paying a lot of money for a coin, I would need to know the reason it failed. Knowing the reason, a collector is OK still buying the coin at a high dollar level as long as they’re comfortable with the actual reason it failed. In my opinion, that’s perfectly fine, since the decision is an informed one!
A separate BIG point: If the buyer has excellent grading skills, and believes this coin has a decent shot at getting a plus, either via Regrade or crackout, it could then be worthwhile paying those big bucks, since the PCGS Price Guide at 67+ is $38,000!!!!!!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@coinkat said:
Was it confirmed that CAC actually reviewed the coin?
I have no idea, but as I indicated, since the cert # shows the coin has been recently graded, it’s possible it has not been submitted to CAC for stickering. If that’s the case, then the point is moot.
Separately, see my other comment above that if it has a decent chance of getting a plus from PCGS via Regrade or crackout, it could then be worthwhile paying those big bucks, since the PCGS Price Guide at 67+ is $38,000!!!!!!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
It's a pretty blazer for sure. I think the FH is justified. The left reverse field at first seems to be a die crack, but then there are grazes (?) that could be grade limiting for CAC. Something at this price level it would be good to know if it had been reviewed and to discover what the issue could be.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Catbert said:
It's a pretty blazer for sure. I think the FH is justified. The left reverse field at first seems to be a die crack, but then there are grazes (?) that could be grade limiting for CAC. Something at this price level it would be good to know if it had been reviewed and to discover what the issue could be.
No CAC but also no David Hall CMQ sticker coming from the parent company? It might have gone for strong money bc crack out artists were gambling on an upgrade (?)…. 17’s are mostly well struck. I think the FH is not as strong/crisp etc. as I have seen on many of this year especially for a 67. That might have kept it from CAC/CMQ stickering or some other issue at 67. One has to ask why a Stack’s auction item at this level did not have a CMQ sticker. Caveat Emptor……………...
@Catbert said:
It's a pretty blazer for sure. I think the FH is justified. The left reverse field at first seems to be a die crack, but then there are grazes (?) that could be grade limiting for CAC. Something at this price level it would be good to know if it had been reviewed and to discover what the issue could be.
No CAC but also no David Hall CMQ sticker coming from the parent company? It might have gone for strong money bc crack out artists were gambling on an upgrade (?)…. 17’s are mostly well struck. I think the FH is not as strong/crisp etc. as I have seen on many of this year especially for a 67. That might have kept it from CAC/CMQ stickering or some other issue at 67. One has to ask why a Stack’s auction item at this level did not have a CMQ sticker. Caveat Emptor……………...
I fully agree with your last point. While some people may object about sending coins for CAC stickering before being auctioned due to the new higher CAC stickering fees, extra round-trip shipping costs, the risk of loss each way in shipping, and the delay for the auction company getting it ready for auction, those things really don’t apply when you submit coins to Stacks for auction. Just check the box, and get charged just a nominal fee. No extra round-trip shipping cost or risk of loss with round-trip shipping, as Stacks just has to “Walk it down the “Hall”, lol. No real delay either, since no round-trip shipping for a sticker is involved.
Since it’s so quick, easy, cheap, and risk-free, like you, I would think that every consignor of coins valued in the high three-figures and higher at Stacks would simply check the box. That’s why I agree with you, that right or wrong, a valuable coin for auction at Stacks without a CMQ sticker implies the coin failed CMQ!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Catbert said:
It's a pretty blazer for sure. I think the FH is justified. The left reverse field at first seems to be a die crack, but then there are grazes (?) that could be grade limiting for CAC. Something at this price level it would be good to know if it had been reviewed and to discover what the issue could be.
No CAC but also no David Hall CMQ sticker coming from the parent company? It might have gone for strong money bc crack out artists were gambling on an upgrade (?)…. 17’s are mostly well struck. I think the FH is not as strong/crisp etc. as I have seen on many of this year especially for a 67. That might have kept it from CAC/CMQ stickering or some other issue at 67. One has to ask why a Stack’s auction item at this level did not have a CMQ sticker. Caveat Emptor……………...
I fully agree with your last point. While some people may object about sending coins for CAC stickering before being auctioned due to the new higher CAC stickering fees, extra round-trip shipping costs, the risk of loss each way in shipping, and the delay for the auction company getting it ready for auction, those things really don’t apply when you submit coins to Stacks for auction. Just check the box, and get charged just a nominal fee. No extra round-trip shipping cost or risk of loss with round-trip shipping, as Stacks just has to “Walk it down the “Hall”, lol. No real delay either, since no round-trip shipping for a sticker is involved.
Since it’s so quick, easy, cheap, and risk-free, like you, I would think that every consignor of coins valued in the high three-figures and higher at Stacks would simply check the box. That’s why I agree with you, that right or wrong, a valuable coin for auction at Stacks without a CMQ sticker implies the coin failed CMQ!
I don't know. I don't see a lot of evidence that a CMQ is compelling enough or proven to add value even for coins of stature. Also you never know in some cases there might not be enough time to get it through CMQ before auction depending on when it was submitted. I don't think CMQ failure is a valid assumption here.
Comments
Don't beat yourself up
Leave that to us
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I know one guy going the other way - cracking CACG here and there get higher grade somewhere else / make money.
Not something I would do, spend money on - he’s real sharp hobbyist in that area, just picking off in and outs he sees.
I’m sure that’s happening due to the presumably more conservative nature of CACG grading. I would think more than one person is doing that. However, I’ve also heard that the CACG holders are super difficult to crack open, so one does risk damaging the coin.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Have never tried crack one of CACG holders but believe that would be a difficult operation. Perhaps they (experienced modeler) practiced on the sample slabs then arrived at right mix surgical tools (vice, saber saw, modelers hammer, pliers) / procedure in fine tuning that skill set.
By now, I have seen hundreds and hundreds of CACG coins, and certainly thousands of certified/stickered coins. As much as most commenters seem intent on being in one camp or another, I feel like CACG grading is scarcely different from that of NGC or PCGS.
That being said, I own zero CACG coins right now, but not because of bias against them - I just haven't happened to land on a coin that I need in one of their holders.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
CACG coins are just like CAC-stickered coins. That means problems on coins that would make them fail at CAC don't make it into CACG.............. I have seen 100s and 100s of all, seen a lotta dogs in other TPG holders, but very rarely when they are stickered.
So every play is a QB sneak...
Nope - West Coast offense lol
The one CACG coin I cracked out was actually pretty easy. I liked how the holder stayed intact as I separated the front and back, but perhaps it's all in the method. But really, no more or less effort that PCGS or NGC holder.
For those that do crack out coins (not me), that’s good news. The little I had heard was contrary to that, but again, a limited sample. Thanks for sharing.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I haven't met a slab yet that can survive the vice method.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
https://www.instructables.com/NiChrome-Hot-Wire-Cutter-for-Acrylic/
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
When applying for a coin asset based line of credit for my bank, I showed them actual prices realized that proved the ultra rarities did exceptionally well over time vs a diverse stock index. I like to think of it as they will do as well as the 2nd most successful investor who desires them.
If I were your bank, I'd weigh other assets in the mix.
What would be the purpose of tooling in the field ?
The thinking is that it was removing/hiding a larger issue of some sort. JA is obviously among the leading graders of all time (if not the best) so my opinion certainly doesn't carry as much weight as his. That being said, I don't necessarily agree with his assessment and I do think it is most likely a contact mark/s of some sort.
Shouldn't a CACG coin generally be in the ballpark of a PCGS+CAC sticker for pricing ?
So depending on the coin and where in the grading spectrum relative to pricing inflection points....you could expect anywhere from a 10% to 30% price bump over a straight-PCGS coin, right ?
Isn't that VERY dangerous and speculative ? Because we never, in all the years of PCGS coins trading at a premium to NGC, had people doing this with PCGS coins and crossing over to NGC for higher grades. If anything, folks did the opposite and hoped for the same grade and even grudgingly accepted a 1-grade drop going from NGC to PCGS, right ?
Going from CACG to PCGS would only work over time if you believed that PCGS coins held their value even if they often/always traded at a discount to CACG, much as NGC did relative to PCGS. Except in this case you are banking/hoping that the long-established credibility of PCGS will hold up based on reputation and price and not suffer a drop with top collections not feeling they all need to end up in CACG holders.
Some might, but as long as it's not the same % as PCGS today, then I guess that game can work.
Did I get it right ?
So you're saying that a Lower Grade + CAC sticker > Higher Grade (and slightly overgraded) ? I'm sure there are examples of that, but I always thought that unless the highger-graded coin was REALLY problematic for the grade that the lower-graded coin + CAC sticker should only close "the gap" between the two coins in pricing.
I do know that the owner of a 1927-D Saint a while back had it re-graded LOWER just to get a CAC sticker but I'm not sure that was done for $$$ reasons. JA bought the coin for a client who wanted a CAC 1927-D so it went from PCGS MS-66 to NGC MS-65+ (this is the Connecticut--Muller coin which I believe is the 4th nicest 1927-D). Maybe that person is on these forums and can chime in.
Here are my random thoughts, in no particular order @GoldFinger1969 on the recent comments:
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Is there such a thing as a quick CACG Market thought?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Excellent commentary WS. Would you say that instead of everybody in the past re-submitting many times to PCGS to catch that borderline upgrade that now it is CACG-to-PCGS instead of PCGS-to-PCGS ?
Makes sense, I agree, admittedly not my area of expertise.
Thanks for the comments, very informative !
I don’t have the time or inclination to play the grading game, but if I did IMO any gain would be in the near term. I’m very optimistic about the longer-term prospects for CACG, which is my horizon (with luck).
Quick thoughts, slow burning threads
What happened to buy the coin not the holder?
Hello, Mr. Van WInkle.
As long as sharp eyed collectors and dealers can make money playing this game, BOTH strategies will continue!
A well known dealer who does the show circuit told me that at most shows he makes more profit with his Show Submissions than he does on bourse sales! Don’t bother sending me a PM. I won’t share the name.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
No problem, no PMs....what was your email again? 😅😉
My current stance in this CAC issue (sticker vs CACG) I simply refer to CDN Bid / CPG for CAC in pricing (consistency). I currently own about a slab box of CACG and at this time don't have the sticker ones (sold out). I certainly would buy stickered if offered to me off the bourse at a show if deal there. At last show setup retailed 4 CACG.
now this is an interesting thread, so I will now kick my cats off the recliner to read it all the way through. stay tuned, as if I would have anything to add, outside of paying for dinner via credit card roulette.
Are you serious?
Both companies do a superb job of grading coins. CACG is a bit more harsh, just judging from PCGS, NGC, and CACG grade reveal videos on YouTube. (If you haven't watched any of them, it is worth your time if you are trying to decide on a TGP to submit coins to.)
I personally stick to PCGS graded coins in my collection. I do not care for NGC's holders, nor CACG's holders. I do own CAC stickered PCGS graded coins, but the green bean has never mattered that much to me. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I do concede that coins seem easier to sell then they have the green bean but I have been in the hobby long enough to be able to grade most US coins with some accuracy, so I don't need CAC telling me which coins are superior for the grade. I am able to tell that on my own.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Well, I hate say it ,but I still buy the coin regardless of the holder or sticker.
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Most everyone does. The issue really becomes one of price. The identical coin in a PCGS 65 holder will undoubtedly cost you more than in a 64 holder. So, in some sense, you are also buying the holder.
I don’t dispute your skills one bit. But I would think you recognize that in addition to CAC stickered coins selling quicker, as a generalization they also sell for more than unstickered coins with similar eye appeal.
If by chance the vast majority of your coins are valued at three figures, I also agree with you that there’s no problem. But if a bunch of your coins are valued at four figures or higher, I believe that when the time comes for selling your coins, whether by you or your heirs, you’ll potentially be leaving significant money on the table by selling those nice coins without stickers.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
And that's a valid point, Steven. In general you would be absolutely correct. I am fortunate that my son is familiar with numismatics, although not to the extent that I am.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
That’s great! So would you mention to him (or leave a critical note easily found) to send many of your valuable coins to CAC stickering before having them sold, or would you make it easier by just submitting them yourself?
I don’t know your age, and everyone’s Coin Collection “disposal” situation is different for MANY reasons. I’m 74, and I decided that if I’m fortunate enough to make it to 80, I’ll then sell my collection at that time. Recognizing the reality that there’s a possibility I may not make it to 80, I let my two adult children know where they will find detailed written instructions letting them know exactly who to contact and what arrangements to negotiate.
I share this, and I posed my initial question to you, because I believe way too often it’s left to the heirs to dispose of their spouse’s or parent’s collection. Typically, they know less than the collector, who was educated, and I believe they often receive a lot less than they otherwise could have received, which is a shame!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Of course it does hence my position the coin should be considered on its merits plastic and stickers notwithstanding.
I am going to be 55 years old on the 23rd of this month. Over the past year or two, my numismatic interests have started to change. For several reasons, I have found that collecting currency brings me as much or more joy than coins alone. For starters, my old eyes don't see as sharply as they once did. Sure, I can wear glasses or get corrective surgery, but is sure is nice to hold a note in my hand and be able to read most of it and see some details. Also, if we are strictly speaking about US coins and currency (no foreign stuff), there are FAR more different types, styles, designs, etc, of currency than coins. Especially if you get into obsolete currency, which I have fallen in love with!
So, I am currently selling off my PCGS Registry set of V Nickels https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874 to help fund my new passion for Confederate, Obsolete, and Colonial currency! It's a BIG rabbit hole, so I decided to liquidate one set of high end coins to help get started!
The coins that will remain in my collection will be mostly sub-$1000 US Type coins, with the exception of several gold coins.
The bottom line (for me personally) will be that CAC stickers don't matter at all. Many folks in numismatics act like a CAC green bean is important. It simply isn't. It just means that two different TGP's agree on the assigned grade. The coin has literally been graded twice (although CAC contends that this is not the case). I am glad that CACG is finally a reality though. This means that you can get a CAC approved coin with a single submission, and that makes far more sense in my mind.
I will close with this... I DO understand why many people adore the CAC green bean and the CAC golden egg. It's widely seen as a value adder to dealers and collectors alike. (Especially the gold sticker) These stickers ARE INDEED useful to less experienced collectors because they should indicate a higher quality coin than other comparable coins in the market. This is generally true, but I have seen CAC stickered coins that I would not touch, and adversely, plenty of coins out there with no sticker that are far better struck or have better eye appeal than some CAC stickered coins. I have been in the game a long time, and these are simply my observations. I have NOTHING against CAC at all. I'm glad that they are finally a primary TGP and am observing them to see how they stack up against PCGS and NGC. Maybe some day, if CACG comes up with a better holder, I will buy CACG coins. For now, I am holding off. I am pulling for them though because competition is always good.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Or the angle grinder
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
My oldest son/executor has instructions to use GC to sell US Federal coins and Heritage for everything else. GC will take care of stickering better coins so I don’t have to mess with it to preserve value. When CAC nears the time when they stop stickering, or if CACG really catches on, I may change tactics.
I have acquired (won a number below CAC bid -yay) and successful marketed CACG material which I prefer vs stickered. My new storage boxes that take all 5 TPG they fit nicely in - yay. I don’t have any stickered at this time but would purchase if part of say an estate deal or off the bourse offer / pickup at my price.
As mentioned...buy the coin not the holder. My exhibit...this 1917 Type 2 Standing Liberty Quarter PCGS Ms 67FH with NO CAC sticker recently sold at Stacks fora whopping $16,800.
It has lovely eye appeal, but that often has little to do with meriting a CAC sticker. Four questions:
If I were paying a lot of money for a coin, I would need to know the reason it failed. Knowing the reason, a collector is OK still buying the coin at a high dollar level as long as they’re comfortable with the actual reason it failed. In my opinion, that’s perfectly fine, since the decision is an informed one!
A separate BIG point: If the buyer has excellent grading skills, and believes this coin has a decent shot at getting a plus, either via Regrade or crackout, it could then be worthwhile paying those big bucks, since the PCGS Price Guide at 67+ is $38,000!!!!!!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Was it confirmed that CAC actually reviewed the coin?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I have no idea, but as I indicated, since the cert # shows the coin has been recently graded, it’s possible it has not been submitted to CAC for stickering. If that’s the case, then the point is moot.
Separately, see my other comment above that if it has a decent chance of getting a plus from PCGS via Regrade or crackout, it could then be worthwhile paying those big bucks, since the PCGS Price Guide at 67+ is $38,000!!!!!!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
It's a pretty blazer for sure. I think the FH is justified. The left reverse field at first seems to be a die crack, but then there are grazes (?) that could be grade limiting for CAC. Something at this price level it would be good to know if it had been reviewed and to discover what the issue could be.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
>
No CAC but also no David Hall CMQ sticker coming from the parent company? It might have gone for strong money bc crack out artists were gambling on an upgrade (?)…. 17’s are mostly well struck. I think the FH is not as strong/crisp etc. as I have seen on many of this year especially for a 67. That might have kept it from CAC/CMQ stickering or some other issue at 67. One has to ask why a Stack’s auction item at this level did not have a CMQ sticker. Caveat Emptor……………...
I fully agree with your last point. While some people may object about sending coins for CAC stickering before being auctioned due to the new higher CAC stickering fees, extra round-trip shipping costs, the risk of loss each way in shipping, and the delay for the auction company getting it ready for auction, those things really don’t apply when you submit coins to Stacks for auction. Just check the box, and get charged just a nominal fee. No extra round-trip shipping cost or risk of loss with round-trip shipping, as Stacks just has to “Walk it down the “Hall”, lol. No real delay either, since no round-trip shipping for a sticker is involved.
Since it’s so quick, easy, cheap, and risk-free, like you, I would think that every consignor of coins valued in the high three-figures and higher at Stacks would simply check the box. That’s why I agree with you, that right or wrong, a valuable coin for auction at Stacks without a CMQ sticker implies the coin failed CMQ!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I don't know. I don't see a lot of evidence that a CMQ is compelling enough or proven to add value even for coins of stature. Also you never know in some cases there might not be enough time to get it through CMQ before auction depending on when it was submitted. I don't think CMQ failure is a valid assumption here.