@MFeld said:
Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
We would crush with knowledge but only because we know their future. So many more people know how to grade well now as well. TPG's have taught thousands the little things and we paid for it with real money on dirt submissions.
@oldabeintx said:
As far as grading is concerned, TPG services and access to information are a two-edged sword. Today it is much easier to learn to grade, but that ease has undoubtedly led some away from grading, as it may not be perceived as a necessary skill. We should also recognize that skill in grading coins isn’t requisite to being recognized as a numismatist. I suspect that the huge emphasis on grading is a fairly recent phenomenon, largely focused on US federal coins. The numismatic world is much greater.
I would argue for debating purposes that grading is actually harder today. Much more factors play, and we all see constant grade changes of the same coin for (hopefully) consistency. Because less numismatists need to understand grading, different factors drive the research and hobby today. Basically grading is taken out of it, unless studying for upgrade purposes. But, as we have seen in multiple posts recently, pictures don’t tend to give the whole story. Trust in grading services is great, but are the numismatists getting smarter than our previous generation because of all the tools we have today? I don’t know?
Edited to add. I don’t think the numismatists of the past who gave us a lot of info to work with were focused on grading. Today’s researchers giving us new info, not necessarily the research focus either. But today seems all about what number a coin grades, or what plastic it is in. This is but for another reason coins are “attractive” now to other areas. Coins speak louder than plastic!
New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
@oldabeintx said:
As far as grading is concerned, TPG services and access to information are a two-edged sword. Today it is much easier to learn to grade, but that ease has undoubtedly led some away from grading, as it may not be perceived as a necessary skill. We should also recognize that skill in grading coins isn’t requisite to being recognized as a numismatist. I suspect that the huge emphasis on grading is a fairly recent phenomenon, largely focused on US federal coins. The numismatic world is much greater.
I would argue for debating purposes that grading is actually harder today. Much more factors play, and we all see constant grade changes of the same coin for (hopefully) consistency. Because less numismatists need to understand grading, different factors drive the research and hobby today. Basically grading is taken out of it, unless studying for upgrade purposes. But, as we have seen in multiple posts recently, pictures don’t tend to give the whole story. Trust in grading services is great, but are the numismatists getting smarter than our previous generation because of all the tools we have today? I don’t know?
Edited to add. I don’t think the numismatists of the past who gave us a lot of info to work with were focused on grading. Today’s researchers giving us new info, not necessarily the research focus either. But today seems all about what number a coin grades, or what plastic it is in. This is but for another reason coins are “attractive” now to other areas. Coins speak louder than plastic!
There's also more grades. 65, 65+, 66. Back in the day They're were 3 UNC grades and only 3 or 4 circ grades. You now have 18 or so UNC grades and 20 circ grades.
@oldabeintx said:
As far as grading is concerned, TPG services and access to information are a two-edged sword. Today it is much easier to learn to grade, but that ease has undoubtedly led some away from grading, as it may not be perceived as a necessary skill. We should also recognize that skill in grading coins isn’t requisite to being recognized as a numismatist. I suspect that the huge emphasis on grading is a fairly recent phenomenon, largely focused on US federal coins. The numismatic world is much greater.
I would argue for debating purposes that grading is actually harder today. Much more factors play, and we all see constant grade changes of the same coin for (hopefully) consistency. Because less numismatists need to understand grading, different factors drive the research and hobby today. Basically grading is taken out of it, unless studying for upgrade purposes. But, as we have seen in multiple posts recently, pictures don’t tend to give the whole story. Trust in grading services is great, but are the numismatists getting smarter than our previous generation because of all the tools we have today? I don’t know?
Edited to add. I don’t think the numismatists of the past who gave us a lot of info to work with were focused on grading. Today’s researchers giving us new info, not necessarily the research focus either. But today seems all about what number a coin grades, or what plastic it is in. This is but for another reason coins are “attractive” now to other areas. Coins speak louder than plastic!
There's also more grades. 65, 65+, 66. Back in the day They're were 3 UNC grades and only 3 or 4 circ grades. You now have 18 or so UNC grades and 20 circ grades.
@oldabeintx said:
As far as grading is concerned, TPG services and access to information are a two-edged sword. Today it is much easier to learn to grade, but that ease has undoubtedly led some away from grading, as it may not be perceived as a necessary skill. We should also recognize that skill in grading coins isn’t requisite to being recognized as a numismatist. I suspect that the huge emphasis on grading is a fairly recent phenomenon, largely focused on US federal coins. The numismatic world is much greater.
I would argue for debating purposes that grading is actually harder today. Much more factors play, and we all see constant grade changes of the same coin for (hopefully) consistency. Because less numismatists need to understand grading, different factors drive the research and hobby today. Basically grading is taken out of it, unless studying for upgrade purposes. But, as we have seen in multiple posts recently, pictures don’t tend to give the whole story. Trust in grading services is great, but are the numismatists getting smarter than our previous generation because of all the tools we have today? I don’t know?
Edited to add. I don’t think the numismatists of the past who gave us a lot of info to work with were focused on grading. Today’s researchers giving us new info, not necessarily the research focus either. But today seems all about what number a coin grades, or what plastic it is in. This is but for another reason coins are “attractive” now to other areas. Coins speak louder than plastic!
There's also more grades. 65, 65+, 66. Back in the day They're were 3 UNC grades and only 3 or 4 circ grades. You now have 18 or so UNC grades and 20 circ grades.
Totally agree, though coins as a numismatic item didn’t give us that, generation gave us that! It is important to note that, as only true researchers now seem to focus on things not related to market grade. Plastic is for sales and confidence of buyer; not researcher!! For example, it’s only for market does a 64+\65 be discussed. It’s the SAME coin. Just my thoughts.
New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
There are way more numismatists now. But comparing percentile to percentile, old numismatists to new, I think we're way more knowledgeable today. Not even close.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I suspect that pre-internet collectors spent more time actually looking at their coins. Today, we have a lot of technology advantages - blown up photos, CoinFacts, this and other forums. So more information than ever before.
I am still making my way through QDB's history of the ANA but the collectors in the early 20th century were enthusiastic and seemed more interested in being part of a community than in the minute details of collecting that we obsess on today.
So maybe more knowledge today but not necessarily more fun.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@airplanenut said:
Back in the day there were fewer if any parking lots, so error researchers definitely had more difficulty finding examples to study.
And access to high powered microscopes was only for the privileged.
Contemporary coin collectors are more knowledgeable in grading AU through mint state coins but less knowledgeable in grading circulated coins as more emphasis is placed in grading Various AU through MS-68 grades today vs many years ago.
While there is more knowledge available today, the contemporary coin collectors are less astute historians of our hobby than the coin collectors of yesteryear.
@MFeld said:
Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
Let me ask you a question. If a 21 year old collector decided that they wanted to become a professional coin grader, how would they learn how to grade coins if the only nice coins they saw were already in plastic? Grading coins raw is different than grading coins in plastic.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I strongly agree that present day numismatics are more knowledgeable than prior numismatics just because there are alot of information available to us now than before. I am not saying we are smarter people but just more knowledgeable. Our goal is to raise the bar for the next generation so they are more knowledgeable than us. Life goes on.........I guess thats progress........
@MFeld said:
Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
Let me ask you a question. If a 21 year old collector decided that they wanted to become a professional coin grader, how would they learn how to grade coins if the only nice coins they saw were already in plastic? Grading coins raw is different than grading coins in plastic.
There are still plenty of nice coins that aren’t in plastic. If I were going to try to help someone try to become a professional grader, I’d expose him to extremely large quantities of different coin types in a wide range of grades. And I’d spend time reviewing coins with him. Additionally, for the purpose of other perspectives, I’d try to get some highly knowledgeable collectors and or dealers to do the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
I think grading ability of those newest to coin collecting has definitely suffered with the advent of TPG's and their number assignments for coin condition states. A carved-in-stone mindset has evolved with collectors, the newer ones, who never really have learned how to grade. These collectors and dealers accept grading numbers on a TPG slab like they are the gospel from those in the real know. Throw away those grading numbers on slabs say I. All they are good for is marketing for the TPG industry. The only number that really matters when one is looking at a coin to buy is the price.
Poor, about good, good, very good, fine, very fine, extremely fine, about uncirculated, choice about uncirculated, strictly uncirculated, select uncirculated, choice uncirculated, gem uncirculated and superb gem uncirculated are the only designations needed for "grade" of the coin, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@MFeld said:
Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
I think grading ability of those newest to coin collecting has definitely suffered with the advent of TPG's and their number assignments for coin condition states. A carved-in-stone mindset has evolved with collectors, the newer ones, who never really have learned how to grade. These collectors and dealers accept grading numbers on a TPG slab like they are the gospel from those in the real know. Throw away those grading numbers on slabs say I. All they are good for is marketing for the TPG industry. The only number that really matters when one is looking at a coin to buy is the price.
Poor, about good, good, very good, fine, very fine, extremely fine, about uncirculated, choice about uncirculated, strictly uncirculated, select uncirculated, choice uncirculated, gem uncirculated and superb gem uncirculated are the only designations needed for "grade" of the coin, in my opinion.
You probably underestimate the extent to which we learn to grade by looking at coins in slabs and seeing how the experts graded them. Granted, some of us look closer than others, and some never even think to look and learn. But on average, today’s collectors have a much better understanding of grading.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I found this an interesting read with lots of interesting responses.
The ability for greatness is probably far greater today than ever before, but the shear amount of information available (some erroneous) can be daunting. And the disconnect to the virtual world (articles and blogs, internet experts, images and video's) can be a double edged sword.
Having said that, I think the greatest advantage today may be those who collected and studied over the course of the "cusp of the internet age". That probably represents those in the hobby and connected to learning over the last 40 years (and at least maybe 30 years), depending on your time horizon.
Before we had the internet, we had to go to the shows and the shops and study the coins in hand, buy or borrow the books, study the catalogues and try to make sense of what became the new (at the time) grading standards and the TPG's and what that all represented, in addition to studying all of the history of design and die making and minting.
As that became what today is, I think those who stayed connected are more knowledgeable than any generation prior, or at least have had the ability to be. Part of that would be the experience of that near 40 years.
Today's generation will most probably exceed that, at least for those who gain the experience from some years of dedication to studying and applying the massive amounts of accessible knowledge.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
@MFeld said:
Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
I think grading ability of those newest to coin collecting has definitely suffered with the advent of TPG's and their number assignments for coin condition states. A carved-in-stone mindset has evolved with collectors, the newer ones, who never really have learned how to grade. These collectors and dealers accept grading numbers on a TPG slab like they are the gospel from those in the real know. Throw away those grading numbers on slabs say I. All they are good for is marketing for the TPG industry. The only number that really matters when one is looking at a coin to buy is the price.
Poor, about good, good, very good, fine, very fine, extremely fine, about uncirculated, choice about uncirculated, strictly uncirculated, select uncirculated, choice uncirculated, gem uncirculated and superb gem uncirculated are the only designations needed for "grade" of the coin, in my opinion.
Has it though? I’ve only been participating in the hobby seriously for a few years, I’ve never taken any type of formal training, and I think I’m a decent grader. That can be attributed to tools like CoinFacts and photograde, endless auction archives, and being able to lot view and look at all the coins.
Yes, I’m weaker when it comes to heavily circulated grades, but from vf-up I believe I’m adequate at grading. Considering that I really only handle vf-up coins that suffices for now. Taking level 2 grading this year at summer seminar to try to refine further.
IMO, not even a contest. Modern day provides so much more research opportunities and grading/comparing using the vast reach of the internet.
Just this message board is proof. Old Timer's didn't have potentially thousands of dedicated collectors that they could share information and experience with on a daily basis.
@logger7 said:
QDB is one of the greats of all time.
I'd like to see you list who you consider the top ten modern numismatists.
that would be a hard list - there's many brilliant numismatists in the world - but for US-related coins, I think David McCarthy and John Kraljevich should be on the list
@logger7 said:
QDB is one of the greats of all time.
I'd like to see you list who you consider the top ten modern numismatists.
that would be a hard list - there's many brilliant numismatists in the world - but for US-related coins, I think David McCarthy and John Kraljevich should be on the list
I don't really know John, but I second the motion for McCarthy.
Since I’ve learned that so much of what I had read in earlier numismatic literature, is total crap, embellishments, and fairy tales, I’m inclined to say we’re light years ahead of the past. Having a community like this and complete access to the totality of the world’s data at our finger tips makes us inherently more knowledgeable.
Edited to add:
As an example: proof Isabella quarters. I’d have died on the hill that they existed. TPGs even acknowledged and slabbed some. Then modern numismatic scholarship eviscerated the idea and they are no more. It was all just a fairy tale, albeit one written in copious books as gospel.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
The current generation of numismatists does beat the long ago old folks in at least one aspect - we know not to clean our coins.
True, but who is to say 80 years from now numismatists don't look back and cringe at how acceptable the practice of dipping coins was at the time?
@pursuitofliberty said:
I found this an interesting read with lots of interesting responses.
The ability for greatness is probably far greater today than ever before, but the shear amount of information available (some erroneous) can be daunting. And the disconnect to the virtual world (articles and blogs, internet experts, images and video's) can be a double edged sword.
Having said that, I think the greatest advantage today may be those who collected and studied over the course of the "cusp of the internet age". That probably represents those in the hobby and connected to learning over the last 40 years (and at least maybe 30 years), depending on your time horizon.
Before we had the internet, we had to go to the shows and the shops and study the coins in hand, buy or borrow the books, study the catalogues and try to make sense of what became the new (at the time) grading standards and the TPG's and what that all represented, in addition to studying all of the history of design and die making and minting.
As that became what today is, I think those who stayed connected are more knowledgeable than any generation prior, or at least have had the ability to be. Part of that would be the experience of that near 40 years.
Today's generation will most probably exceed that, at least for those who gain the experience from some years of dedication to studying and applying the massive amounts of accessible knowledge.
I think one of the biggest advantages of modern day collectors is that it's possible to go from beginner to intermediate in mere months. In the old days it could take many years and often did. For years I thought coin collecting was just filling holes in a folder or album.
I think one of the biggest advantages of modern day collectors is that it's possible to go from beginner to intermediate in mere months. In the old days it could take many years and often did. For years I thought coin collecting was just filling holes in a folder or album.
Absolutely true. For those of my generation and older it’s been arguably doubly hard as we had to first unlearn a bunch of fallacies and then re-learn quite a few truths. Those starting out today, or during the last 20 years or so have a ton of more factually correct information as a foundation. Just pop reports alone is a massive leap in data.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@DeplorableDan so are you taking David's & Steve's grading class at SS this year?
I would agree that David McCarthy is in the top ten of modern Numismatists. I have taken two classes he has taught at SS (Adv. Grading with Problem Coins and Pioneer Gold/US Gold) and am amazed at his knowledge. John Kraljevich is also amazing and would also include him in the to ten.
Member of LSCC, EAC, Fly-In Club, BCCS Life member of ANA
Agree & disagree with some of the comments posted here. If I may explain my take on all of this. The potential for the present day collector / numismatist to surpass the ones before us is certainly there due to the wealth of information available and the ease in access to it. However, the present day collector relies to much on some TPG graders opinion ( myself included ). Yes, they are good at what they do but are they perfect ? Nope, none of us are. Give a raw coin to a few coin scholars from 50 to 100 years ago. Will you have disagreement. Sure will. Back when I started in this wonderful hobby 60 years ago, I relied on the B & M guys to tell me the grade. Yes, I bought coins as BU, Choice or Gem only to have another tell me the coin was XF or AU. Sometimes the same seller a year or so after buying it. WTH ? No, I did not have an honest mentor to show me how to grade, what to look for etc.
Owning close to 2,000 PCGS slabs, I done my own little grading class. Pull a slab out of the Intercept box while covering the grade with the top of an Intercept individual slab storage box. Study the coin and guess the grade before looking. Yea, I know, looking through the plastic. I quickly found out I SUCKED !!! Off by 1 or 2 grades either way. Discouraging. However, I kept at it. Probably looked at 3,500 to 4,000 over a couple years. I've gotten a lot better but still not what I consider a grader. Limitations ? Oh yes. This little experiment is isolated to 4 different denominations. ( still suck on the nickels ) But, it has helped tremendously. So, our hosts have been my mentor. Having the info available at my fingertips is a lot easier than what those that came before us.
When I started buying slabbed coins, I to bought " by the numbers " without really looking at the coin. I was in the " Ricko " camp. ( RIP sir ) All white. Only in the last few years have I started buying toned coins. Harder to grade for me. Leaning more & more into buying " the coin. Not the plastic "
Back to the OP's question. Numismatists from long ago were fewer in numbers. Had less chance to interact with others and most IMO were more specialized in the series of focus. Spending habits ? The hobby of Kings. Again, IMO few had the means to collect high $ rarities, let alone the ability to find these rarities. In todays world more disposal income, for more collectors who can find multiple avenues to acquire high end coins.
@ColoradoCoinGuy said:
I think I would also include JD (John Dannreuther) in my top ten Numismatists list
JD would definitely be on the list.
A couple of thoughts on this original topic =
1- The knowledgeable numismatic wasn't just about grading - If a current numismatic grading isn't good - then attend a grading class or classes so you can strengthen you grading skills . Most likely, Eliasberg, Norweb or Clapp never took a grading class, I found the ANA grading course offered at Summer classes to be fantastic
2- If you wish to enhance your knowledge in a specific series, then you can read most likely read a whole bunch of books or search the internet to strengthen your knowledge in those areas.
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
The current generation of numismatists does beat the long ago old folks in at least one aspect - we know not to clean our coins.
True, but who is to say 80 years from now numismatists don't look back and cringe at how acceptable the practice of dipping coins was at the time?
Or consider it naive of us to NOT conserve the coin. For example, we should probably be coating copper coins in a protective sealant. It is possible (likely?) That coins should NEVER be stored in albums.
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
The current generation of numismatists does beat the long ago old folks in at least one aspect - we know not to clean our coins.
True, but who is to say 80 years from now numismatists don't look back and cringe at how acceptable the practice of dipping coins was at the time?
Or consider it naive of us to NOT conserve the coin. For example, we should probably be coating copper coins in a protective sealant. It is possible (likely?) That coins should NEVER be stored in albums.
Albums are fine for coins as long as they are archival quality. That and be sure to never store your albums in the crawl space or in the garage.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@EastonCollection said: Most likely, Eliasberg, Norweb or Clapp never took a grading class
Back then, there was no need for a collector to grade coins, at least not on a scale. All that mattered was looking at the coin, understanding the coin, and the price. And that’s probably still more true today than most people realize.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
A good example of the better. When I was first getting started with collecting, knowledge was transferred by experience and word of mouth. A dealer shared a copy of a notebook page with notes on rarity and known varieties. Today all of the information is available online via multiple sources.
The worse, collecting habits have moved digital and I find myself buying more online than in person and that requires a different set of skills. Feels less personable and generic.
@EastonCollection said: Most likely, Eliasberg, Norweb or Clapp never took a grading class
Back then, there was no need for a collector to grade coins, at least not on a scale. All that mattered was looking at the coin, understanding the coin, and the price. And that’s probably still more true today than most people realize.
Yes. Experience is still often more important than knowledge.
The way I say it usually is that the only true knowledge is experience.
I started collecting in the mid 50's with a couple of Library of Coins cent albums and a red book. I wandered from house to house asking to look through the neighbors penny jars and filled a lot of holes in the albums. Never found anything of great worth but had the bug. I collected off and on and learned more. In the early 70's I was stationed in Alaska and a young guy opened up a coin shop in downtown Anchorage. I spent a lot of time there and learned quite a bit from him. A few years later I was living in England and used to go down, at least twice a week to a combo coin/stamp/antique store. I completed a set of British pennies from Victoria up and also hit up all my British neighbors to look through their coins. Found a lot of US silver coins that were often gifted to me.
After that I was living in Maryland and went by Coins of Laurel at least twice a week. They finally invited me behind the counter and I began a 5 year stint buying and selling for them. I had a pretty good knowledge, and according to Mike Webber and a few other gentleman that I considered professionals, to have a "good eye". I learned a lot, knew a lot, was exposed to high tier coins and dealt with them on a weekly basis with the other time buying wheat cents and silver coins and silverware. At that time you had to learn and keep learning, there was no internet, no home computers, no teletrade, you either knew it or didn't or if you didn't you hit the books until you did. Weekly reading was Numismatic News, Coin World and the Greysheet. Oddities like early gold and silver dollars you were pretty much on your own other than what you had picked up. Super sliders and whizzed coins abound and came in, were recognized, and sent on their way.
Now days there is the internet, there is the PCGS board and the other guys board and everything you can imagine comes through one of those sources. You don't have to know, you just have to know where to look and then develop an eye for grading, which wasn't so critical in the old days. So, we are not so different, we just developed a different skill set based on the time and available resources. Even given the resources available now, at my advanced age, I could never compete with the up and comers who have fingertip access to more years of knowledge that I have even lived.
So, not better, not worse, different, but right for the times.
@EastonCollection said: Most likely, Eliasberg, Norweb or Clapp never took a grading class
Back then, there was no need for a collector to grade coins, at least not on a scale. All that mattered was looking at the coin, understanding the coin, and the price. And that’s probably still more true today than most people realize.
This! This should still be the foundation for every coin purchase, unless you’re just a 100% registry chasing coin buyer. I’m always happy to see that many of the great registry sets across multiple series aren’t just numbers, but do in fact have coins that are often superbly eye appealing. Not all of course, but a good many. Any idiot can just throw money at top pops.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Comments
We would crush with knowledge but only because we know their future. So many more people know how to grade well now as well. TPG's have taught thousands the little things and we paid for it with real money on dirt submissions.
Back in the day there were fewer if any parking lots, so error researchers definitely had more difficulty finding examples to study.
I would argue for debating purposes that grading is actually harder today. Much more factors play, and we all see constant grade changes of the same coin for (hopefully) consistency. Because less numismatists need to understand grading, different factors drive the research and hobby today. Basically grading is taken out of it, unless studying for upgrade purposes. But, as we have seen in multiple posts recently, pictures don’t tend to give the whole story. Trust in grading services is great, but are the numismatists getting smarter than our previous generation because of all the tools we have today? I don’t know?
Edited to add. I don’t think the numismatists of the past who gave us a lot of info to work with were focused on grading. Today’s researchers giving us new info, not necessarily the research focus either. But today seems all about what number a coin grades, or what plastic it is in. This is but for another reason coins are “attractive” now to other areas. Coins speak louder than plastic!
There's also more grades. 65, 65+, 66. Back in the day They're were 3 UNC grades and only 3 or 4 circ grades. You now have 18 or so UNC grades and 20 circ grades.
Totally agree, though coins as a numismatic item didn’t give us that, generation gave us that! It is important to note that, as only true researchers now seem to focus on things not related to market grade. Plastic is for sales and confidence of buyer; not researcher!! For example, it’s only for market does a 64+\65 be discussed. It’s the SAME coin. Just my thoughts.
Personally, I couldn't grade then and I can't grade now. But there's a lot more information readily available now.
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who do not.
How do you think present day numismatists stack up vs. those of long ago, in terms of knowledge?
Yes.
There are way more numismatists now. But comparing percentile to percentile, old numismatists to new, I think we're way more knowledgeable today. Not even close.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I suspect that pre-internet collectors spent more time actually looking at their coins. Today, we have a lot of technology advantages - blown up photos, CoinFacts, this and other forums. So more information than ever before.
I am still making my way through QDB's history of the ANA but the collectors in the early 20th century were enthusiastic and seemed more interested in being part of a community than in the minute details of collecting that we obsess on today.
So maybe more knowledge today but not necessarily more fun.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
And access to high powered microscopes was only for the privileged.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Contemporary coin collectors are more knowledgeable in grading AU through mint state coins but less knowledgeable in grading circulated coins as more emphasis is placed in grading Various AU through MS-68 grades today vs many years ago.
While there is more knowledge available today, the contemporary coin collectors are less astute historians of our hobby than the coin collectors of yesteryear.
Let me ask you a question. If a 21 year old collector decided that they wanted to become a professional coin grader, how would they learn how to grade coins if the only nice coins they saw were already in plastic? Grading coins raw is different than grading coins in plastic.
I strongly agree that present day numismatics are more knowledgeable than prior numismatics just because there are alot of information available to us now than before. I am not saying we are smarter people but just more knowledgeable. Our goal is to raise the bar for the next generation so they are more knowledgeable than us. Life goes on.........I guess thats progress........
There are still plenty of nice coins that aren’t in plastic. If I were going to try to help someone try to become a professional grader, I’d expose him to extremely large quantities of different coin types in a wide range of grades. And I’d spend time reviewing coins with him. Additionally, for the purpose of other perspectives, I’d try to get some highly knowledgeable collectors and or dealers to do the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think grading ability of those newest to coin collecting has definitely suffered with the advent of TPG's and their number assignments for coin condition states. A carved-in-stone mindset has evolved with collectors, the newer ones, who never really have learned how to grade. These collectors and dealers accept grading numbers on a TPG slab like they are the gospel from those in the real know. Throw away those grading numbers on slabs say I. All they are good for is marketing for the TPG industry. The only number that really matters when one is looking at a coin to buy is the price.
Poor, about good, good, very good, fine, very fine, extremely fine, about uncirculated, choice about uncirculated, strictly uncirculated, select uncirculated, choice uncirculated, gem uncirculated and superb gem uncirculated are the only designations needed for "grade" of the coin, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The current generation of numismatists does beat the long ago old folks in at least one aspect - we know not to clean our coins.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
You probably underestimate the extent to which we learn to grade by looking at coins in slabs and seeing how the experts graded them. Granted, some of us look closer than others, and some never even think to look and learn. But on average, today’s collectors have a much better understanding of grading.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I found this an interesting read with lots of interesting responses.
The ability for greatness is probably far greater today than ever before, but the shear amount of information available (some erroneous) can be daunting. And the disconnect to the virtual world (articles and blogs, internet experts, images and video's) can be a double edged sword.
Having said that, I think the greatest advantage today may be those who collected and studied over the course of the "cusp of the internet age". That probably represents those in the hobby and connected to learning over the last 40 years (and at least maybe 30 years), depending on your time horizon.
Before we had the internet, we had to go to the shows and the shops and study the coins in hand, buy or borrow the books, study the catalogues and try to make sense of what became the new (at the time) grading standards and the TPG's and what that all represented, in addition to studying all of the history of design and die making and minting.
As that became what today is, I think those who stayed connected are more knowledgeable than any generation prior, or at least have had the ability to be. Part of that would be the experience of that near 40 years.
Today's generation will most probably exceed that, at least for those who gain the experience from some years of dedication to studying and applying the massive amounts of accessible knowledge.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Has it though? I’ve only been participating in the hobby seriously for a few years, I’ve never taken any type of formal training, and I think I’m a decent grader. That can be attributed to tools like CoinFacts and photograde, endless auction archives, and being able to lot view and look at all the coins.
Yes, I’m weaker when it comes to heavily circulated grades, but from vf-up I believe I’m adequate at grading. Considering that I really only handle vf-up coins that suffices for now. Taking level 2 grading this year at summer seminar to try to refine further.
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IMO, not even a contest. Modern day provides so much more research opportunities and grading/comparing using the vast reach of the internet.
Just this message board is proof. Old Timer's didn't have potentially thousands of dedicated collectors that they could share information and experience with on a daily basis.
QDB is one of the greats of all time.
I'd like to see you list who you consider the top ten modern numismatists.
No fair including dead people. It’s hard. You need to constantly edit the pool of candidates.
that would be a hard list - there's many brilliant numismatists in the world - but for US-related coins, I think David McCarthy and John Kraljevich should be on the list
I don't really know John, but I second the motion for McCarthy.
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Since I’ve learned that so much of what I had read in earlier numismatic literature, is total crap, embellishments, and fairy tales, I’m inclined to say we’re light years ahead of the past. Having a community like this and complete access to the totality of the world’s data at our finger tips makes us inherently more knowledgeable.
Edited to add:
As an example: proof Isabella quarters. I’d have died on the hill that they existed. TPGs even acknowledged and slabbed some. Then modern numismatic scholarship eviscerated the idea and they are no more. It was all just a fairy tale, albeit one written in copious books as gospel.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I'd nominate Roger Burdette.
Coin Photographer.
True, but who is to say 80 years from now numismatists don't look back and cringe at how acceptable the practice of dipping coins was at the time?
I think one of the biggest advantages of modern day collectors is that it's possible to go from beginner to intermediate in mere months. In the old days it could take many years and often did. For years I thought coin collecting was just filling holes in a folder or album.
Absolutely true. For those of my generation and older it’s been arguably doubly hard as we had to first unlearn a bunch of fallacies and then re-learn quite a few truths. Those starting out today, or during the last 20 years or so have a ton of more factually correct information as a foundation. Just pop reports alone is a massive leap in data.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@DeplorableDan so are you taking David's & Steve's grading class at SS this year?
I would agree that David McCarthy is in the top ten of modern Numismatists. I have taken two classes he has taught at SS (Adv. Grading with Problem Coins and Pioneer Gold/US Gold) and am amazed at his knowledge. John Kraljevich is also amazing and would also include him in the to ten.
Life member of ANA
Agree & disagree with some of the comments posted here. If I may explain my take on all of this. The potential for the present day collector / numismatist to surpass the ones before us is certainly there due to the wealth of information available and the ease in access to it. However, the present day collector relies to much on some TPG graders opinion ( myself included ). Yes, they are good at what they do but are they perfect ? Nope, none of us are. Give a raw coin to a few coin scholars from 50 to 100 years ago. Will you have disagreement. Sure will. Back when I started in this wonderful hobby 60 years ago, I relied on the B & M guys to tell me the grade. Yes, I bought coins as BU, Choice or Gem only to have another tell me the coin was XF or AU. Sometimes the same seller a year or so after buying it. WTH ? No, I did not have an honest mentor to show me how to grade, what to look for etc.
Owning close to 2,000 PCGS slabs, I done my own little grading class. Pull a slab out of the Intercept box while covering the grade with the top of an Intercept individual slab storage box. Study the coin and guess the grade before looking. Yea, I know, looking through the plastic. I quickly found out I SUCKED !!! Off by 1 or 2 grades either way. Discouraging. However, I kept at it. Probably looked at 3,500 to 4,000 over a couple years. I've gotten a lot better but still not what I consider a grader. Limitations ? Oh yes. This little experiment is isolated to 4 different denominations. ( still suck on the nickels ) But, it has helped tremendously. So, our hosts have been my mentor. Having the info available at my fingertips is a lot easier than what those that came before us.
When I started buying slabbed coins, I to bought " by the numbers " without really looking at the coin. I was in the " Ricko " camp. ( RIP sir ) All white. Only in the last few years have I started buying toned coins. Harder to grade for me. Leaning more & more into buying " the coin. Not the plastic "
Back to the OP's question. Numismatists from long ago were fewer in numbers. Had less chance to interact with others and most IMO were more specialized in the series of focus. Spending habits ? The hobby of Kings. Again, IMO few had the means to collect high $ rarities, let alone the ability to find these rarities. In todays world more disposal income, for more collectors who can find multiple avenues to acquire high end coins.
I think I would also include JD (John Dannreuther) in my top ten Numismatists list.
Life member of ANA
I know I would. J.D. is a human U.S. coin encyclopedia, and then some.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
JD would definitely be on the list.
A couple of thoughts on this original topic =
1- The knowledgeable numismatic wasn't just about grading - If a current numismatic grading isn't good - then attend a grading class or classes so you can strengthen you grading skills . Most likely, Eliasberg, Norweb or Clapp never took a grading class, I found the ANA grading course offered at Summer classes to be fantastic
2- If you wish to enhance your knowledge in a specific series, then you can read most likely read a whole bunch of books or search the internet to strengthen your knowledge in those areas.
Or consider it naive of us to NOT conserve the coin. For example, we should probably be coating copper coins in a protective sealant. It is possible (likely?) That coins should NEVER be stored in albums.
Albums are fine for coins as long as they are archival quality. That and be sure to never store your albums in the crawl space or in the garage.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Back then, there was no need for a collector to grade coins, at least not on a scale. All that mattered was looking at the coin, understanding the coin, and the price. And that’s probably still more true today than most people realize.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Better and worse.
A good example of the better. When I was first getting started with collecting, knowledge was transferred by experience and word of mouth. A dealer shared a copy of a notebook page with notes on rarity and known varieties. Today all of the information is available online via multiple sources.
The worse, collecting habits have moved digital and I find myself buying more online than in person and that requires a different set of skills. Feels less personable and generic.
Yes. Experience is still often more important than knowledge.
The way I say it usually is that the only true knowledge is experience.
Kenneth Bressett weighs in on this question in his memoir “A Penny Saved: R.S. Yeoman and His Remarkable Red Book.”
I started collecting in the mid 50's with a couple of Library of Coins cent albums and a red book. I wandered from house to house asking to look through the neighbors penny jars and filled a lot of holes in the albums. Never found anything of great worth but had the bug. I collected off and on and learned more. In the early 70's I was stationed in Alaska and a young guy opened up a coin shop in downtown Anchorage. I spent a lot of time there and learned quite a bit from him. A few years later I was living in England and used to go down, at least twice a week to a combo coin/stamp/antique store. I completed a set of British pennies from Victoria up and also hit up all my British neighbors to look through their coins. Found a lot of US silver coins that were often gifted to me.
After that I was living in Maryland and went by Coins of Laurel at least twice a week. They finally invited me behind the counter and I began a 5 year stint buying and selling for them. I had a pretty good knowledge, and according to Mike Webber and a few other gentleman that I considered professionals, to have a "good eye". I learned a lot, knew a lot, was exposed to high tier coins and dealt with them on a weekly basis with the other time buying wheat cents and silver coins and silverware. At that time you had to learn and keep learning, there was no internet, no home computers, no teletrade, you either knew it or didn't or if you didn't you hit the books until you did. Weekly reading was Numismatic News, Coin World and the Greysheet. Oddities like early gold and silver dollars you were pretty much on your own other than what you had picked up. Super sliders and whizzed coins abound and came in, were recognized, and sent on their way.
Now days there is the internet, there is the PCGS board and the other guys board and everything you can imagine comes through one of those sources. You don't have to know, you just have to know where to look and then develop an eye for grading, which wasn't so critical in the old days. So, we are not so different, we just developed a different skill set based on the time and available resources. Even given the resources available now, at my advanced age, I could never compete with the up and comers who have fingertip access to more years of knowledge that I have even lived.
So, not better, not worse, different, but right for the times.
This! This should still be the foundation for every coin purchase, unless you’re just a 100% registry chasing coin buyer. I’m always happy to see that many of the great registry sets across multiple series aren’t just numbers, but do in fact have coins that are often superbly eye appealing. Not all of course, but a good many. Any idiot can just throw money at top pops.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.