How do you think present day numismatists stack up vs. those of long ago, in terms of knowledge?
MFeld
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Occasionally, I think about how much more information is so readily available to us now, compared to pre-internet days (and much longer ago).
How do you think today’s numismatists compare to and differ from those of long ago, with respect to knowledge, grading ability, collecting habits, camaraderie, spending habits, etc.?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I think that the old timers have much more knowledge than most of the newer generation.
We had to learn by reading books, going to coin shows, coin clubs and contact with other
collectors. These days it is just too easy to find a coin with an anomoly and instead of researching,
which is also easier these days with the internet, just post it on a website such as this and ask others
to do the work for them. There is also a lot of misinformation out there from sites such as YouTube
that gives the “newbies” the impression that you can find valuable coins in change and when you tell them they don’t have a valuable coin, they argue that you are wrong without them doing any research themselves. This naturally does not apply to all of the younger numismatists as I know of some that are quite knowledgable and a pleasure to communicate with.
Mark, how are we defining "present day numismatist"? Can you give me an example? Do you consider yourself to be one, or are you one of "those from long ago"? Would you say that David Mccarthy is a "present day numismatist"?
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It's a good question, but I think it has to start with defining what/who a numismatist actually is.
@Greenstang made some good points, but I'd argue that the random strike-it-rich parking lot find crowd would not fall within the definition of numismatist. This is how Wikipedia describes the term:
Numismatist
A numismatist is a specialist, researcher, and/or well-informed collector of numismatics/coins. Numismatists can include collectors, specialist dealers, and scholar-researchers who use coins in object-based research.
@MFeld since you posed the question, do you agree with that definition?
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I believe the above definition fits - the key words for me being “well-informed”. As a collector and sometime dealer of 70 or so years, I am vastly more informed today because of the amount of new information that is readily accessible, and the advent of authentication and grading services that speed the learning process.
You have answered your own question. IMO, someone such as yourself (because of your past and present employment) has more general and specific knowledge than virtually anyone in the past except for one person who shall remain anonymous. It is a time thing. There are many dead numismatists (Newman, Picker, Margolis, Hubbard, etc. who I've heard of who must have been equally or more knowledgeable for their time.
You and the rest of us will be surpassed in the future when someone asks this question. At least you, and too many others to mention here will be remembered. No one will remember me.
Dan, thanks for encouraging me to clarify.
I’m thinking of three groups - 1) post-internet; 2) pre-internet and 3) (pre) pre-internet 😉 - let’s say pre 1965.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The key word is "numismatist." For me, that implies some degree of knowledge to begin with. You are probably one but very many coin collectors are not in the "real" sense of the word. I hope this does not sidetrack the thread but I've got an hour to kill before going to the airport.
Interesting question. I think I will read and learn.
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I believe that there are more and better numismatics today in terms of sheer numbers. I attribute this all to technology. All the available information online and the ability to chat and have contact with experts who have taught us and have thus passed the torch of knowledge and understanding. It still takes passion for the game to get really good, though. And yes, I believe numismatics is just as popular today as it was in the 1960s and 70s. People are just doing everything online these days. I’ve learned a lot in the past almost 20 years from about 2005 to today. I don’t believe that, even if I had applied myself, that I would’ve been able to learn as much from let’s say 1984 to 2004, as the information was simply not available to me. JMHO.
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I agree with this, but there are also many, many more books available now than in the past.
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That definition works fine for me.
But if I change my mind, I might start another thread titled:
“Please start with the below and provide your own improved definition of a numismatist”. 😉
A numismatist is a specialist, researcher, and/or well-informed collector of numismatics/coins. Numismatists can include collectors, specialist dealers, and scholar-researchers who use coins in object-based research._
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I guess I am in category 2, as in 1965 I was still filling Whitman albums, though it was around then that I found a 1951-D cent with a die error and I set out to find out how coins were made and what caused errors such as it. This eventually led to my working at Coin World and then the ANA.
I have tremendous respect for the Greats like Bolender, Overton, Valentine and Sheldon who set out to create universes that have enriched the hobby to this day, some of course standing upon the shoulders of predecessors. We shall not see their likes again, Bill Fivaz and J.T. Stanton being perhaps the last of that breed.
My greatest fear is that slabbing has created a generation of collectors who are afraid to touch their coins and learn from them in doing so. They are but widgets, to be owned but not loved.
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It's no secret that so much more information is available today than in the past. I can go to the websites for Heritage, Stack's, and others and immediately have access to auction records--photos, descriptions, prices--for an enormous number of items. If I'm doing research, whether it's pricing or trying to suss out some detail that comes with reviewing many examples, it's immeasurably easier today than in the past where you may have been limited to accessing a few collections through connections or having a library of catalogs, many of which didn't have photos. So information is far more accessible today than it once was.
With that said, when I imagine the pre-computer era, I picture a much simpler time. Computers became ubiquitous when I was a kid, and smartphones as I entered the workforce. Technology has brought many benefits, but it also serves as a distraction to life. While I imagine dedicated researchers who make a living with coins spent plenty of time at their craft in the past as they do today, for more casual collectors/numismatists, there are so many more distractions today vying for time. Perhaps I'm simply romanticizing a simpler time I never knew, but I'd imagine that fewer non-professionals sit down and study their coins as much as would have been done in the past.
As far as the greats go, the above applies. Today's best benefit greatly from having so much access to so much information. At the same time, their predecessors are the ones that literally wrote the books, and it's their names still associated with so many references. At the very least, I think the previous generations will retain more long-term notoriety as a result. It also seems to me that there was more low-hanging fruit to be discovered a few generations ago (not said as an insult), so researchers could have an impact over a broad range of interests. With those discoveries out of the way, my perception is that more researchers today are more specialized. That may make their work less known to the masses, since fewer people will be impacted by a specific person's discoveries.
I'm not sure how much I actually answered the original question, and this would certainly an interesting topic for a conversation, but I think my thoughts are more than I can type. Plus, my phone just buzzed.
Way more is known and accessible today. I had a dealer- friend who was actually mad about the internet. He said that his 30 years of study no longer gave him an information advantage.
And AI is going to expand this even further.
When I started collecting coins, in the 50’s, the grading scale went from XF to BU on the high end. If it was considered, (Uncirculated), it went no further than that with the exception of, Gem. No mention of coins being cleaned because pretty much everyone thought that white was right. So, as a result, many would dip their coins and the dip solution was readily available at the coin shop, as today, that part hasn’t changed.
Today, (Improperly Cleaned) will not make a numerical grade and of course is frowned upon. I also believe the age of the digital cameras has also added a new visual impact. Once you blow an image of a coin up to the size of a dinner plate you see things, like doubling and other mint imperfections, that were otherwise overlooked, just ask, @emeraldATV
Great question
I think that the serious collectors know a lot more today than they did in the old days. The number books are that available is staggering compared to what it was when I was finding my wings in the 1970s.
Some of the dealers wanted it that way. The less people knew, the more they could take advantage of collectors.
Before 1962 Numismatists thought that 1804 Silver Dollars were minted in 1804. This is just one example of Numismatists today being much more knowledgeable because of so much research that has been done.
Today's numismatists do not have the advantage of seeing, and judging, a large number of high-end classic coins raw.
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I think that, had it not been for the hard dedicated work of the earlier Numismatists, that there would be very little knowledge for new Numismatists to learn.
Mr_Spud
Do you mean Pre Internet vs. Post Internet?
The type of knowledge has changed. Modern collectors know a lot more about grading, availability, and what exists but old time collectors knew more about everything else.
I doubt total knowledge of individuals has varied all that much since the great pyramids were built.
You are correct with regard to the web and age of information that we are a fortunate part. Current Numismatists have access and material that was just not previously available.
However I think we have lost some of the historical provenance regarding iconic early Mint coinage which is a shame.
Similar to comparing legendary sports figures. The context and age of the playing era and athleticism is incomparable from early era to present. So it is an exercise in futility. The following generations are always more capable with the knowledge and skills that have accumulated.
As it is with most things, those of the past stack up above and beyond those of the present. Knowledge was earned through research and through interactions. Today most, at least in this country, go to a computer for the so-called answer.
I meant both pre and post (emergence of the internet).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Problem with the answer is how to compare the knowledge available in the past(say 50 years ago) compared to the multitude of informational systems, books and lectures available to everyone today. In the past, education was fairly limited to persons who were daily involved in the hobby and their peers. Today, anyone can access some of the most credible sources of knowledge for most any area of the hobby. I feel it would be near impossible to answer with confidence.
Jim
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Hi Mark -
Actually, a tough question to answer. The old day (pre 1965) numismatists had to rely on their own auspices. They learned from legwork, libraries, interaction with other numismatists, training of their eye over time, reference books, newspapers, etc. Their numbers were fewer compared to today.
Numismatists today (internet) almost have information overload at their fingertips. Sheer numbers are far greater than the old days. Intercommunication is far easier.
Given your 3 choices, I’ll split down the middle & pick #2 - pre internet.
OK, call me a wuss.
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As per your request - you’re a wuss. 😉
Seriously, though, I think that my initial question isn’t as easy to answer as it might have appeared.
With all of the information available these days, those who make great use of it certainly have an advantage over numismatists from a few decades or longer ago. However, with that immense information (and the widespread acceptance of third party grading) comes potential over-reliance and distraction from actual learning about the coins, themselves.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think today collectors are too reliant on the emergence of third party services. With proper research and attention to detail, I do believe that will begin to change.
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I find that the numismatists of today are lumpier and harder to stack.
Once upon a time, scientists, mathematicians and engineers needed to know how to use a slide rule. Anybody who graduated from university after 1980 has probably never seen a slide rule, let alone know how to use one. I know I don't.
Are the scientists and mathematicians of the past "better" or "more knowledgeable" than the people who just use a pocket calculator or computer spreadsheet to do the same job as a slide rule?
There's a lot more information now than there ever was, and a lot of that information is much easier to find. The skills needed to find that information have changed. A numismatist from the pre-Internet era needed to have access to a library, and know how to use that library. A numismatist today needs the Internet, and needs to know how to use the Internet to find the information they need.
I remember the early 1990s as the transition period: doing some pre-internet research on a mystery coin I had bought; the only information I had to start with were the two words written on the 2x2. I spent several weeks in the university library, scouring coin catalogues and reference books before finding enough information to identify my coin. Today, I can literally type those two words into Google and find pictures of several dozen examples of coins similar to my mystery specimen (the two words were "Trebizond asper", if anyone is curious).
Was I a "better numismatist" back then, spending weeks scouring through books trying to research a poorly-documented, long-forgotten empire, or a "better numismatist" now, with my expertise in Google-fu? For me, the quality of numismatist is better represented by what they do with the knowledge they find, rather than how much information they find or how quickly or efficiently they find it.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
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Mark, I can't answer your question. It's one thing to have knowledge, and another to know how to apply it and yet another to have the right connections to get first shot at a coin a collector wishes to acquire (otherwise it might be priced out of his reach).
Numismatics becoming the big business that it has over the last several generations creates an over-reliance on the TPGs. If you're spending serious money on a coin, you need whatever safety net you can find.
A long time collector you probably know told me at the February 2024 Long Beach Show to the effect that it's more important to know the specifics of what the current people in the grading rooms are looking for now, rather than knowing how to grade specific series (pl) of coins. For the financial end of the hobby, he's probably right. How many people have this information? I certainly don't.
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This is a great question. I think today it’s easy to see images of coins online and buy/sell online, but years ago you had to go to coin shows and shops and got to see more coins in person. How often do we complain about (or compliment) photos or true views? Years ago a mentor was probably more important. Today we have great advice available at our fingertips but a good photo can hide hairlines. Real tips and secrets got passed down from a mentor firsthand - and it’s easier to remember something when a person you trust tells you in person than from what you read on the internet. Plus they would be more likely to tell you real numismatic stories that people would be afraid to post online.
Interesting question.
Nothing empirical about my statement, but I feel that the amount of information readily available probably opens the door for higher competency from individuals who would have been poor numismatists in the past. I do not mean that negatively, it makes the hobby more accessible. Also, as noted before, most of the information breakthroughs in U.S. Coinage have already been made. New information being found on 18th and 19th century U.S. Coinage is almost always granular by nature, so new numismatic authors will likely be less prominent based on the nature of their work, despite having immense talent.
As for pure skill of the numismatist from lets say 1965 to today, I imagine a cross-section would not be particularly different.
I think the present-day Numismatist stacks up fairly well against the pre-internet Numismatist as far as general knowledge goes. That's because there is much more information readily available and much easier to find and study than it was pre-internet. On the other hand, I don't necessarily believe that today's Numismatist is or will be better than the pre-internet Numismatist. I believe that a pre-internet Numismatist has a better foundation, and with that foundation along with the information available on the internet today, they make up the top Numismatists of today (IMHO).
If the next generation of Numismatists is not careful, they may become more reliant on TPG and AI and therefore may not have as good of a foundation to build on as their predecessors did.
This question is not an easy one to answer as Mark noted earlier in this thread.
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Also helping to change that is the emergence of fourth party services.
That's an odd supposition. There wasn't even universal literacy in ancient Egypt.
One measure would be to look at the accuracy of the information available. Back in the day we believed a lot of misinformation passed down like “old wives’ tales” or dreamed up by folks like Walter Breen. The sharing among interested collectors and professionals is far more widespread today and has aided to clean up a lot of bs. This forum is a good example of such sharing and dissemination of information.
I remember an article in a magazine, from the early 1960s, that showed a black and white outline of a sailing ship, which related “the old wive’s tale” that almost all of the 1804 dollars were lost on a ship that sank.
But things of all the other things you learned along the search!
There was a famous syndicated newspaper columnist out of San Francisco who used to occasionally run a column "Things I learned while looking for something else." They were quite interesting even if apropos to nothing.
Given the ease at which information is accessed today compared to days of yore, numismatists can know a lot more, but can do so without learning it. Double-edged sword.
Camaraderie among numismatists is more democratized now than among those of yore. It's much easier to access anyone you want without having to be in the right place with the right connections.
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I truly agree with the concept that so much numismatic information is now so easily accessable.
Which makes it all that much more important that people seek out help, opinions, and training from actual experts.
As information has become both consolidated and fragmented by the obvious things like internet and smartphones there is an inundation of folks who simply decide that they are now "informed" due to their found information.
Almost everyone is a victim of The Dunning Kruger Effect to some degree...the concept that you greatly over estimate your knowledge and abilities in a particular field of expertise when you know very little. But this same effect is reversed with folks who are truly expert and often under estimate their knowledge of a subject, which may be one of the reasons they seek to always learn more. A fun short video on the topic - The Irony of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
It's pretty obvious in the coin world when you immerse yourself in environments (online or offline) with folks who have actual knowledge and experience how much more there is to accurately learn as apposed to immersing yourelf into fragmented information online that isn't a consolidation of factual information and learning without knowing whether it's is accurate or just designed to get the most eyeballs viewing it in order to ultimately generate $$$.
Perhaps my favorite example of the assumptions that happen with folks new to numismatics is the whole "no mint mark, super rare!" phenomenon lol.
I've truly wondered where this came from...it simply wasn't a thing before we had the internet. Occassionally I go searching to see if I can figure out how that ignorant little chunk of nonsense started and I can't seem to figure out how it started.
The scientific approach wins either way in my mind...knowing that you less than there is to know, and continuously seeking truths... an empirical method for acquiring and seeking out knowledge.
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There are variable coins missing mint marks. I think where it became a thing is Post 1982 when the poor mint marks, including P, in all coins except the cent. This creates the illusion that all coins have a mint mark.
It's not even close. Access to information is exponentially greater today. In very short order one can access tons of information on pretty much every coin issued. If I wished to purchase a 1921 peace dollar I can still look at a few in hand like the old days, but additionally I can view thousands of them in various grades and see their sales prices.
In the fairly recent past there were things you just didn't know, and there wasn't a reasonable way to gain the information. The secondary sources of the past were not nearly as reliable as today.
The passion for the hobby is likely the same, but the knowledge base just isn't in the same galaxy.
I totally agree that collectors of today have much easier access to information (whether they actually avail themselves of it and/or learn/retain said knowledge once accessed might be the subject of another thread however)... but as to the question Mark posed about grading ability, I think that on the whole it has atrophied and, with the advent of third party grading, in some cases never developed in the first place. Way too many people in this hobby, and business for that matter, primarily look at the grade on the label and/or the type or color of a sticker rather than the actual item in the holder. There are a lot of lazy "numismatists" out there who'd much rather someone else did the work for them, and we all know it. We've seen it almost daily with various threads posted here.
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The best answer may not be measuring numismatists... but instead measuring how numismatists have over time influenced the direction of the hobby. Coin Collecting should be an investigative work in progress with signs of continuous improvement marking the progression of where we have been and need to go as noted along the way. My biggest concern is whether the hobby is dynamic enough to accept thoughtful change.
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It’s a tough question. Each had to have somewhat different skill sets. Prior to 1986 there were no slabbed coins. Today many have the CDN digital coin dealer app on their phone. Or can do a certificate lookup of some slabbed coin. For example back then (circa 1970) red book and bluebook played a larger role. Greysheet was around though. Certainly knowing how to grade important in both eras.
This is a really good question, which has probably some conflicting answers, however I see it this way. Today’s collector is more ARMED with information readily available at their fingertips such as internet archives, Newman Portal, auction results, high quality images, etc. However, in some cases having such easy access to information makes true studying and researching a collection less “intuitive and understood” because there are many things done for the collector already. Before the internet age, we could look at slabbing as the greatest thing to happen to numismatics in decades, though todays collector may not study coins themselves as much because the learning of “how” a coin is a 65 versus a 64 I think lacks in some circles. I would say “old school” numismatic study and thinking produced stronger numismatists while today’s readily available information makes the “market” stronger.
Either way, I do believe there are great numismatists in every era, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon! But as the hobby evolves, so does the type of research/study.
The biggest difference or change is the change itself. More info is available but since method of manufacture has changed , also.... it seems the "in depth" analysis has morphed into quick finds and immediate profits without much study at all. This doesn't bode well for a lot of collectors but does add another facet to numismatics, in general. Seems it's not about study of the coin so much today as the marketing and packaging of them.
As far as grading is concerned, TPG services and access to information are a two-edged sword. Today it is much easier to learn to grade, but that ease has undoubtedly led some away from grading, as it may not be perceived as a necessary skill. We should also recognize that skill in grading coins isn’t requisite to being recognized as a numismatist. I suspect that the huge emphasis on grading is a fairly recent phenomenon, largely focused on US federal coins. The numismatic world is much greater.