@DeplorableDan said:
I just had a conversation with JA about this. He said that it certainly looks suspicious in those photos, and he wants to look at the coin in hand to confirm. He's going to call Ian now, and if the coin is actually tooled then obviously CAC will eat it, and buy it back from the consignor. He wouldn't put his sticker on a coin that's knowingly tooled, but he is human and there is a possibility that it was missed the first time around.
Thanks Dan for reaching out and getting this looked at
Can't wait to hear the results and what happenes. Since the seller had it for sale I'm sure JA will just make it right and forward it to NGC
We're going to review this coin - and also have it looked at by CAC and NGC. We're leaving in the auction at this point (and depending on timing, may have to extend the listing by 7 days while we get all of the answers).
@jesbroken said:
I've never even held any of these coins in my hand and certainly do not have a firm grapse of what can occur to dies but here is a comparison of this coin with another that has similar appearance and graded VG10. Both coins show the nose tips beyond the damage? for lack of a better term. Most of the CoinFacts examples have a sharper nose without the appearance of tooling. Perhaps if I had held dozens of these coins, I might have an understanding that this occurred in some fashion and their may be more out there. JMO
Jim
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think your comparison of the two portraits is as different as apples and oranges. The portraits are different, due to them not being the same Bolender die variety. So I believe there would be no correlation to these dissimilar coins in comparison.
As I posted previously, the comparison coin is a half dollar, not a dollar. As such, it wouldn’t be a Bolender variety.
My bad. I noticed it was a half dollar, but in the moment, forgot to reference that. Thank you for the correction.
Here's another stickered coin I was reminded of because of the "etching" around the lower portion of the obverse. From a Heritage auction in Dec. 2019. PCGS AG3 CAC.
Where is the CAC only crowd in threads like these? There are many that refuse to buy NGC and PCGS coins for fear of buying a problem coin. This thread shows that CAC is just as fallible as the other services. This is not to say that CAC or the other services don’t do a good job overall; only that the services are not substitutes for your own judgment and review.
@cameonut2011 said:
This thread shows that CAC is just as fallible as the other services.
Does it though?
Some of them have made claims, either express or implied, that a CAC sticker guarantees that they are not buying problem coins. At least two counter examples of CACed coins with obvious tooling were provided. It shows, at a minimum, that CAC is not infallible.
@cameonut2011 said:
This thread shows that CAC is just as fallible as the other services.
Does it though?
Some of them have made claims, either express or implied, that a CAC sticker guarantees that they are not buying problem coins. At least two counter examples of CACed coins with obvious tooling were provided. It shows, at a minimum, that CAC is not infallible.
“just as fallible” and “not infallible” are very different.
Just an update about this - we've withdrawn and submitting under guarantee review. A rare mistake by the grading services, but confident all will be worked out. Our consignor is very understanding - and agreed that it should not be offered on the market.
@Crepidodera said:
Here's another stickered coin I was reminded of because of the "etching" around the lower portion of the obverse. From a Heritage auction in Dec. 2019. PCGS AG3 CAC.
I see obvious etching on the lower reverse, not the obverse. Am I missing something? The entire coin shows the signs of being in a suboptimal environment with its etched, fine-scratched surfaces. I try to avoid these coins with this look.
It seems like CAC overlooks some issues so long as the coin has some original toning. In other words, original toning scores beaucoup points on behalf of the coin stickering while stuff like etching may be discounted. I see charcoal briquettes with pitting and bright, corroded rims getting stickered because they show uniform, terminal toning.
Also keep in mind that graders will tolerate more issues in lower grades. This F2 CAC is THE most worn, lowest graded 73 NA O3 with a CAC sticker (I checked the other F2 CAC). It has lightly scuffed and hairlined surfaces, some damage (tooling?) to the date but also has some original toning and a decent overall look. Here are two views. The Trueview captures the coin well, whereas the GFRC photo shows the surfaces better. Neither show the light scuffing on the lower obverse. However, I feel the coin is worthy of stickering because it is pretty decent looking with some remaining original toning for such a worn coin.
Funny story...I showed the 73NA03 to my gf along with two graded, unstickered VF30 and VF35 SLHs and she asked, "What's the green sticker for?" I told her that it designates that it is choice for the grade. She said, "THAT COIN!?" Thankfully, she had forgotten what I paid for it.
@DelawareDoons said:
To answer OP, that should not have straight graded, imho, and definitely shouldn't have CACed.
Don't know about that. I've seen at least a hundred Heraldic Eagle and Flowing Hair Dollars that were net or straight graded and holdered that would have been bagged if they were Seated or later vintage coins. Pre 1815 Dollars, Cents and Half Cents (have not seen enough of the other denominations made in this era to comment) have been graded by different standards than later minted coinage.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Comments
Thanks Dan for reaching out and getting this looked at
Can't wait to hear the results and what happenes. Since the seller had it for sale I'm sure JA will just make it right and forward it to NGC
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
We're going to review this coin - and also have it looked at by CAC and NGC. We're leaving in the auction at this point (and depending on timing, may have to extend the listing by 7 days while we get all of the answers).
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
My bad. I noticed it was a half dollar, but in the moment, forgot to reference that. Thank you for the correction.
But it stickered .
Here's another stickered coin I was reminded of because of the "etching" around the lower portion of the obverse. From a Heritage auction in Dec. 2019. PCGS AG3 CAC.
Where is the CAC only crowd in threads like these? There are many that refuse to buy NGC and PCGS coins for fear of buying a problem coin. This thread shows that CAC is just as fallible as the other services. This is not to say that CAC or the other services don’t do a good job overall; only that the services are not substitutes for your own judgment and review.
Does it though?
Some of them have made claims, either express or implied, that a CAC sticker guarantees that they are not buying problem coins. At least two counter examples of CACed coins with obvious tooling were provided. It shows, at a minimum, that CAC is not infallible.
“just as fallible” and “not infallible” are very different.
Just an update about this - we've withdrawn and submitting under guarantee review. A rare mistake by the grading services, but confident all will be worked out. Our consignor is very understanding - and agreed that it should not be offered on the market.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Ian,
As always you are on top of things and responsive to your customer base.
Willy
...
I see obvious etching on the lower reverse, not the obverse. Am I missing something? The entire coin shows the signs of being in a suboptimal environment with its etched, fine-scratched surfaces. I try to avoid these coins with this look.
It seems like CAC overlooks some issues so long as the coin has some original toning. In other words, original toning scores beaucoup points on behalf of the coin stickering while stuff like etching may be discounted. I see charcoal briquettes with pitting and bright, corroded rims getting stickered because they show uniform, terminal toning.
Also keep in mind that graders will tolerate more issues in lower grades. This F2 CAC is THE most worn, lowest graded 73 NA O3 with a CAC sticker (I checked the other F2 CAC). It has lightly scuffed and hairlined surfaces, some damage (tooling?) to the date but also has some original toning and a decent overall look. Here are two views. The Trueview captures the coin well, whereas the GFRC photo shows the surfaces better. Neither show the light scuffing on the lower obverse. However, I feel the coin is worthy of stickering because it is pretty decent looking with some remaining original toning for such a worn coin.
Funny story...I showed the 73NA03 to my gf along with two graded, unstickered VF30 and VF35 SLHs and she asked, "What's the green sticker for?" I told her that it designates that it is choice for the grade. She said, "THAT COIN!?" Thankfully, she had forgotten what I paid for it.
Don't know about that. I've seen at least a hundred Heraldic Eagle and Flowing Hair Dollars that were net or straight graded and holdered that would have been bagged if they were Seated or later vintage coins. Pre 1815 Dollars, Cents and Half Cents (have not seen enough of the other denominations made in this era to comment) have been graded by different standards than later minted coinage.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."