You OK with a green bean ?
JimTyler
Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
Looks like poor tooling to me, then again I’m wrong more times than right.
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JimTyler
Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
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They're ok, but I prefer broccoli.
The coin above appears to be tooled.
I see what you see.
The eye? Looks engraved.
peacockcoins
I think the OP is referring to the outline of the bust, particularly the nose/lip area.
I’m looking along the face down to the nose. Looks like it is outlined then they sneezed when they got to the nose.
The "Bruce Willis Nose" variety is one of the rarest US coins.
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AND..... reducing image size would require TOOLING of the image source.
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1587090/1795-Flowing-Hair-Silver-Dollar-B-5-BB-27-3-Leaves-NGC-F-12-CAC-Green-Toned
Coin Photographer.
I see all of that, just adding information about the eye.
peacockcoins
Should GC pull the auction and implement the cac guarantee? Kinda similar in circumstance to that cac $10 Indian with the significant reverse scratch that Ian handled swiftly after it was brought to his attention.
@ianrussell
Coin Photographer.
I think the eye is fine, but it does appeared to be unfortunately scraped (or tooled) down the profile. I own the same obverse die for a 1795 dollar and below is a comparison of my coin and the coin in question. My coin is on the left while the Marlon Brando die variety is on the right-
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Not a coin that I would want.
Someone gave up early on a hobo project.
Question from not an expert - How would the marks on OP's coin visually compare to a tooling mark made by the mint?
Tooling marks made by the mint would be raised as they'd be scratching into the dies, leaving a void that the metal would fill, as opposed to tooling marks made after the fact, digging into the surfaces, and moving/removing metal.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
To answer OP, that should not have straight graded, imho, and definitely shouldn't have CACed.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Gracias. Makes sense. Similar to die polish lines in that regard.
Can anyone present this coin to JA and ask for his comments on way it stickered?
Would like to hear why
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Face and forehead look as though those areas have been tooled possibly to strengthen the outline of her nose. There certainly is damage to the tip of her nose. My coin in comparison, same variety B-5, with undamaged, prominent nose.
This is the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning at the right price. It has minor issues that apparently didn't bother NGC and CAC too much.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@TomB, by the way, exceptionally nice 1795 Flowing hair B5 variety. Are we talking VF35 0r a 40 grade? And straight graded?
Wish the obverse was as nice as the reverse. I could never get past that schnoz
People are different. I hate tooling. I wouldn't touch it. I'd rather have a coin that is cleaned or has mild ED.
Mild ED . Would a blue pill fix it ?
Not usually.
Lol. I have the same reaction every time someone else uses the abbreviation.
I've never even held any of these coins in my hand and certainly do not have a firm grapse of what can occur to dies but here is a comparison of this coin with another that has similar appearance and graded VG10. Both coins show the nose tips beyond the damage? for lack of a better term. Most of the CoinFacts examples have a sharper nose without the appearance of tooling. Perhaps if I had held dozens of these coins, I might have an understanding that this occurred in some fashion and their may be more out there. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I don't think I would want the GC coin, scratches or not. Now, TomB's coin, that one I would buy! Tom, let me know what you want for it while I check how much home equity I can tap.
Jim, in case it makes a difference, your comparison coin is a half dollar, whereas the subject coin is a dollar.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t have a problem being in a no problem slab. Many early coins get a pass for some issues but CAC is suppose to weed them out.
If you think a portion of the obverse portrait was tooled and you’re OK with the coin in a straight grade holder, at what point would you draw the line?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think your comparison of the two portraits is as different as apples and oranges. The portraits are different, due to them not being the same Bolender die variety. So I believe there would be no correlation to these dissimilar coins in comparison.
Tooling or engraving is unacceptable to me. I would pass.. bean or no bean.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
That coin should have not passed for a straight grade at both services.
Collector
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As I posted previously, the comparison coin is a half dollar, not a dollar. As such, it wouldn’t be a Bolender variety.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My line is crossed, I wouldn’t buy it. My issue from the start was CAC bean. Many won’t even take a close look they feel it’s been done for them. Question is did CAC see the problem and stilled beaned it or did they miss it.
Sorry I wasn’t clear in my question - even if you knew you wouldn’t buy the coin, at what point would you not be OK with a straight grade? In other words, if not tooling, what would be unacceptable?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Tooling in CAC-stickered coins surprises people? I've seen very minor tooling on two of my CAC-stickered coins such as fine scratching at black spots and smoothing out of a cut.
I shouldn’t have said I don’t have a problem. It shouldn’t be in that holder like many other problem coins. I only was concerned about the bean.
Wow... looks like someone cut off Ms. Liberty's nose... to spite her face, perhaps?
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Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I just had a conversation with JA about this. He said that it certainly looks suspicious in those photos, and he wants to look at the coin in hand to confirm. He's going to call Ian now, and if the coin is actually tooled then obviously CAC will eat it, and buy it back from the consignor. He wouldn't put his sticker on a coin that's knowingly tooled, but he is human and there is a possibility that it was missed the first time around.
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Mark,
My point was that their could have been die work done that could have caused this without being pmd/tooling. Did not mean to say these dies were the same. Just comparing the looks between the two nose areas that were both still graded. Just a thought and in no way meant to say it was a factual premise.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Let’s say this coin wasn’t cac stickered, would it be ok in the straightgrade NGC holder? I think NGC bears at least some responsibility here for starting the screw up.
We’ve already hashed this out. I said I shouldn’t have said no problem with the holder I was thinking about the sticker.
Curious what he would do with the coin if he sees it unfit for the sticker.
Pulls the bean, breaks it out and puts it in one of his holders with problems noted and sends it down the road?
EAC 6024
Is it okay to bash a coin that’s actively for sale if we disagree with the grade or think the coin has issues based on a few pictures? I know if this was my coin I wouldn’t be very happy and this thread certainly isn’t going to help the seller.
We just might be getting his fat out of the fire. There are guarantees
Edited. Bid just went up $150 we’re not that influential
What about the buyer/bidder? Shouldn't he/she be protected, as well?
I believe that this is the right/ethical thing to do,
This also helps to protect and promote Ian's reputation, too.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
He told me I could answer this on his behalf, but no, absolutely not. If the coin turns out to tooled, he'd likely work something out with the consignor to buy the coin back, and subsequently remove the sticker. Unless the consignor is dead set on keeping the coin, then a different arrangement would be made to remove the sticker and make them whole in some fashion. If he ends up buying the coin back, NGC would then be given the opportunity make it right on their end. Under no circumstances would the coin be sent down the road with any type of CAC approval if there's evident tooling.
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The cat's already out of the bag, and tooled coins in straight grade holders are bad for the entire hobby. If I were the consignor, I'd be pleased to make a deal with JA and correct the issue rather than risk an awful auction performance where i'd possibly take a big loss, and be pawning the problem off to another unsuspecting buyer. I for one appreciate when I see a concerted effort from the grading companies and auction houses to correct potential issues such as this.
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I chuckled about this and figured he would just write the check to the seller, and tell Ian scrape the bean off and sell that p.o.s again in the same NGC holder on a new auction.