Why Coinfacts Needs GC’s Prices Realized:

wondercoin

Here’s a real life example. In a Registry series near and dear to me (Mint State Kennedy 50C), Coinfacts incorrectly shows the 1976-S 40% Silver Half (Coin # 6728, Pop 5) in PCGS-MS69 valued at $20,000.00 with no prior reported sales. Yet, GC shows 5 trades on this pop 5 coin in the past (14) months!

The first coin that traded at $14,500 hammer in March, 2023 then resold five months later on GC (exact same coin) at only $8,250 hammer. The second coin traded at $7,750 hammer a month before the resale of Coin #1. Then, the third coin sold at $6,250 hammer a couple months later (Oct 2023) only to resell again tonight (the exact coin) at just $4,660 hammer! The proper valuation on this coin is in the range of $5,000 - $6,000 (full retail); yet Coinfacts is still waiting for its first reported sale to support or reject its incorrect $20,000.00 valuation.

This is not a mistaken price by 10% or 15%. The coin is over-valued by about 300% and was over-valued by at least roughly 200% for more than half a year now! This is also not the rare exception to the rule. If Coinfacts is no longer going to rely on outside experts they can trust to assist with pricing in the various series (e.g. I helped DH for years with modern pricing for free as an outside expert), they might want to speak with Ian about including GC’s pricing to their Coinfacts valuations.

As always, just my 2 cents designed to help PCGS continue to be the greatest grading service / information desk on the planet.

Wondercoin

TomB

I agree with your points.

However, if PCGS is willing to allow its customer service to disintegrate and also willing to allow its TrueView branding to be dragged through the mud with inferior images, then I would suspect that the funds they save from dismantling two core, brand strengths would not get pushed into licensing data (if required) from GC. That isn't meant as an argument or a criticism of your well-written post, but rather as an observation of apparent recent company priorities.

coinbuf

I'm not sure the issue is only with PCGS, hasn't Ian said that he is the one not willing to report sales to outside firms like PCGS?

braddick

I am probably wrong on this yet I thought it was GC that was preventing the integration of their data with Coinfacts rather than the other way around.

lilolme

@wondercoin "If Coinfacts is no longer going to rely on outside experts they can trust to assist with pricing in the various series (e.g. I helped DH for years with modern pricing for free as an outside expert), they might want to speak with Ian about including GC’s pricing to their Coinfacts valuations."

What is your basis for this statement? Is it a recent change that you know of?

In the past I am aware of dealers who have turned in information to pcgs an got a pcgs price guide value adjusted. In one case I was looking at a coin priced well over the 'guide' but with limited trades and they told me they would turn in their information and get the price guide adjusted upward. I bought it and the guide did go up sometime shortly later. Also pcgs and others can still use GC auction records to adjust price guide values and I have seen instances of it (this on less traded and higher value coins, $1 1893 S was one I recall) . They just can't record the auction record. PCGS still states on their webpage that they accept information for review of price guide values. See below.

https://www.pcgs.com/prices

ProofCollection

@coinbuf said:
I'm not sure the issue is only with PCGS, hasn't Ian said that he is the one not willing to report sales to outside firms like PCGS?

I do believe the problem is that PCGS will not pay for the data. I believe Ian is willing to sell it. The data is valuable as indicated by the first post of this thread, especially because of the volume of coins going through GC.

wondercoin

Coinbuf/Pat - likewise, I could be wrong on this, but the decision to not provide the information is on a free of charge basis. The information has a value - what exactly that value is I do not know. Wondercoin.

edited to add - lilolme: I base that on the disbanding of the “Board of Experts” that once provided that information.

lilolme

@wondercoin said:
Coinbuf/Pat - likewise, I could be wrong on this, but the decision to not provide the information is on a free of charge basis. The information has a value - what exactly that value is I do not know. Wondercoin.

edited to add - lilolme: I base that on the disbanding of the “Board of Experts” that once provided that information.

>

I don't know about the board of experts but as I stated I do know of people getting price guide values adjusted and the pcgs website states that they will accept information for review. I did a screenshot of the applicable part for submitting such information. Also if you know any of the people involved you could contact them directly.

Relaxn

Why buy GC prices? Just scrape the data using python... those prices are public and IMHO non proprietary

ProofCollection

@Relaxn said:
Why buy GC prices? Just scrape the data using python... those prices are public and IMHO non proprietary

It might be OK if you do it as an individual, but not if PCGS does it (Terms and Conditions). I'm pretty sure it's behind a Cloudflare firewall to block scraping in either case though.

braddick

@Relaxn said:
Why buy GC prices? Just scrape the data using python... those prices are public and IMHO non proprietary

Even if legal it would be unethical and not a good look for a company such as PCGS to engage in that behavior.

TwoSides2aCoin

if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this.

wondercoin

‘’if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this’’

And discuss that fact in a “State of the Union address” weekly!! 😝

And have the best photographer in the industry if he literally needed to hire Annie Leibovitz to accomplish that (he would of course negotiate to also include a free nude picture of himself). 😉

Wondercoin.

jmlanzaf

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this.

But, again, GC data is NOT available. They have chosen to not make it available.

This is on GC not PCGS. There is zero evidence that GC even offered to sell it.

I think GC could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

Maywood

The beginning of the end for collectors with regard to PCGS began when HRH left, followed out the door by Van Simmons and others. That all led to PCGS being run like a corporation where the main obligation was to shareholders. Things have changed drastically in the last 5-10 years, but the PCGS price guide has always been problematic since its earliest days. As with all price "guides" that how it should be viewed. The OP's complaint, while maybe justified, is reconciled by the fact that the most accurate information is available rather easily. He proved that himself.

Maybe the real question should be why are collectors lazy when researching prices??

Project Numismatics

For large purchases, coinfacts should not be the only resource that collectors use.

I think most people buying a $5,000+ coins know to check GC and are aware that coinfacts is not a great resource for expensive coins that are infrequently sold.

Manifest_Destiny

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this.

But, again, GC data is NOT available. They have chosen to not make it available.

This is on GC not PCGS. There is zero evidence that GC even offered to sell it.

I think GC could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

Proofmorgan

I would think the other auction companies offer this data readily as it links to their website and provides extra traffic that may transition into more business.

Maybe the metrics and this logic does not hold true in the case of GC. Possibly the greater access to this data may reduce dealer business (logic posted on another thread) or the calculated value of the data is greater than the value of the added business through linked access.

Maywood

Two questions for @wondercoin: Were the five coins all PCGS examples - and - Can it be verified that the coins actually sold or were they buy backs by the consignor(s)??

logger7

Coin Facts includes Stacks Bowers, ebay, HA, and other auction companies. I'd like to hear why they all permitted access to the collecting public and dealers. I can only think of narrow minded legalistic and ultimately selfish reasons why other competing auction companies will not permit their data to be permitted to be added.

ProofCollection

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this.

But, again, GC data is NOT available. They have chosen to not make it available.

This is on GC not PCGS. There is zero evidence that GC even offered to sell it.

I think GC could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

jmlanzaf is correct. Ian has said:

I took the stance very early on at GC not to have auction results on third party websites, as I believe it's in our best interest to build GC's website traffic. That being said, there are advantages with having the listings everywhere for GC as well. So far, the disadvantages were enough to persuade me to keep it only on the GC website. We may revisit in the new year.

Project Numismatics

@logger7 said:
Coin Facts includes Stacks Bowers, ebay, HA, and other auction companies. I'd like to hear why they all permitted access to the collecting public and dealers. I can only think of narrow minded legalistic and ultimately selfish reasons why other competing auction companies will not permit their data to be permitted to be added.

Why should businesses give away data for free? “Selfish” doesn’t play into it - businesses exist to make money and each auction company has their own business model.

Slade01

@coinbuf said:
I'm not sure the issue is only with PCGS, hasn't Ian said that he is the one not willing to report sales to outside firms like PCGS?

Yup, CPG currently has it at $11,200 and Greysheet $9,000, and those are paid publications, not just free information. If anyone has it correct it should be them. So it must be a lack of data that I would expect they would license.

fiftysevener

Seems like NGC and CAC are not sharing data either. As you may know NGC Registry was recognizing CAC stickered coins for a while but now they claim they can't (or won't) access CAC information. Also interesting that NGC registry does not yet recognize CACG coins although PCGS coins are accepted and scored. So obviously PCGS is not the only company with internal problems.

Coin Finder

So is the argument that auction prices (hammer plus fees, shipping etc) is what that coin is worth at that moment under a set of unique circumstances? Or a random collection of price guides which reflect "worth" over time?

jmlanzaf

@Project Numismatics said:

@logger7 said:
Coin Facts includes Stacks Bowers, ebay, HA, and other auction companies. I'd like to hear why they all permitted access to the collecting public and dealers. I can only think of narrow minded legalistic and ultimately selfish reasons why other competing auction companies will not permit their data to be permitted to be added.

Why should businesses give away data for free? “Selfish” doesn’t play into it - businesses exist to make money and each auction company has their own business model.

Er... isn't that "selfish" even if it's a reasonable business decision?

jmlanzaf

@Coin Finder said:
So is the argument that auction prices (hammer plus fees, shipping etc) is what that coin is worth at that moment under a set of unique circumstances? Or a random collection of price guides which reflect "worth" over time?

That's a different argument.

jmlanzaf

@fiftysevener said:
Seems like NGC and CAC are not sharing data either. As you may know NGC Registry was recognizing CAC stickered coins for a while but now they claim they can't (or won't) access CAC information. Also interesting that NGC registry does not yet recognize CACG coins although PCGS coins are accepted and scored. So obviously PCGS is not the only company with internal problems.

That's a completely different issue.

fiftysevener

@jmlanzaf said:

@fiftysevener said:
Seems like NGC and CAC are not sharing data either. As you may know NGC Registry was recognizing CAC stickered coins for a while but now they claim they can't (or won't) access CAC information. Also interesting that NGC registry does not yet recognize CACG coins although PCGS coins are accepted and scored. So obviously PCGS is not the only company with internal problems.

That's a completely different issue.

My intent was not to hijack a good thread, only that lack of data sharing seems to be a common problem.

FrankH

Accurate information on prices realized ..... should ....... increase auction participation.

jmlanzaf

@fiftysevener said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@fiftysevener said:
Seems like NGC and CAC are not sharing data either. As you may know NGC Registry was recognizing CAC stickered coins for a while but now they claim they can't (or won't) access CAC information. Also interesting that NGC registry does not yet recognize CACG coins although PCGS coins are accepted and scored. So obviously PCGS is not the only company with internal problems.

That's a completely different issue.

My intent was not to hijack a good thread, only that lack of data sharing seems to be a common problem.

I'm not sure the registry is all about data sharing. It's more about enforcing brand loyalty.

Manifest_Destiny

@jmlanzaf said:

@fiftysevener said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@fiftysevener said:
Seems like NGC and CAC are not sharing data either. As you may know NGC Registry was recognizing CAC stickered coins for a while but now they claim they can't (or won't) access CAC information. Also interesting that NGC registry does not yet recognize CACG coins although PCGS coins are accepted and scored. So obviously PCGS is not the only company with internal problems.

That's a completely different issue.

My intent was not to hijack a good thread, only that lack of data sharing seems to be a common problem.

I'm not sure the registry is all about data sharing. It's more about enforcing brand loyalty.

Well...except for the CAC part.

jmlanzaf

@Manifest_Destiny said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@fiftysevener said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@fiftysevener said:
Seems like NGC and CAC are not sharing data either. As you may know NGC Registry was recognizing CAC stickered coins for a while but now they claim they can't (or won't) access CAC information. Also interesting that NGC registry does not yet recognize CACG coins although PCGS coins are accepted and scored. So obviously PCGS is not the only company with internal problems.

That's a completely different issue.

My intent was not to hijack a good thread, only that lack of data sharing seems to be a common problem.

I'm not sure the registry is all about data sharing. It's more about enforcing brand loyalty.

Well...except for the CAC part.

Hard to say. It changed about the same time CACG came into existence. So it could be a competitor issue or out could be that CAC changed the data format. I don't really know.

Project Numismatics

@jmlanzaf said:

I think eBay could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

Fixed that for ya.

Project Numismatics

@jmlanzaf said:

@Project Numismatics said:

@logger7 said:
Coin Facts includes Stacks Bowers, ebay, HA, and other auction companies. I'd like to hear why they all permitted access to the collecting public and dealers. I can only think of narrow minded legalistic and ultimately selfish reasons why other competing auction companies will not permit their data to be permitted to be added.

Why should businesses give away data for free? “Selfish” doesn’t play into it - businesses exist to make money and each auction company has their own business model.

Er... isn't that "selfish" even if it's a reasonable business decision?

Do you give your inventory away for free to customers? No? I guess you are pretty selfish then!

Labelling GC as “selfish” implies a component of morality that is not appropriate within the context of operating a business. There’s no ethical or moral requirement to give away proprietary data for free.

PeakRarities

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this.

But, again, GC data is NOT available. They have chosen to not make it available.

This is on GC not PCGS. There is zero evidence that GC even offered to sell it.

I think GC could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

How are we defining the word "coup"?

JK, don't answer that 😈

TwoSides2aCoin

Proof that there is no accurate price guide and each individual coin stands on its own merit. So what is it worth ?


The market determines the value and price guides must be updated and maintained if they want validity. Adding the juice is another odd factor in pricing or publishing. You get to the five figure coins and guides go out the window.

wondercoin

‘’Two questions for @wondercoin: Were the five coins all PCGS examples - and - Can it be verified that the coins actually sold or were they buy backs by the consignor(s)??’’

Maywood: Here are your answers…

1. All 5 coins were PCGS examples.
2. It can seldom be “verified” in any auction who exactly was the winning bidder of a particular lot (if the winning bidder doesn’t want to make that information public). This is where one’s knowledge and expertise of a particular series comes in. For example, “Onlyroosies” (who has been reading this tread as he liked my original post) knows just about everything when it comes to silver and clad Roosie dimes. His involvement with literally all the players in that series results in him knowing virtually everything about who bought what, who bought back what items, etc., etc. When you work with him, you know virtually everything about whether Roosie auction coins really sold or were bought back by their owners, etc., etc. I remember I sold a handful of clad Roosies on Teletrade some roughly 20 years ago at prices that defied logic. Onlyroosies asked me if there were really buyers at these incredible levels. I assured him that there were such buyers, but it really seemed nearly impossible that was the case. He knows that when I tell him something, he can “take it to the bank”, but it even made no sense to me how that handful of dimes sold at such levels on that given Sunday. Then, about 16 or 17 years later, I ran into the buyer of the Teletrade dimes who explained exactly how it happened that he won the coins that night and I immediately called Onlyroosies to tell him the mystery of these 5 or 6 clad dimes was finally solved! When one knows his/her series as OnlyRoosies knows the Roosie dimes, you essentially know where virtually every auction coin has gone and where nearly every pop 1 or 2 dime presently resides.

I don’t believe there is presently an MS Kennedy Half Dollar expert with the knowledge that OnlyRoosies has with the Roosie Dimes, but there are a handful of us (myself included) that have the “lion’s share” of that knowledge on most of the key coins in the series now spanning 60 years!!

As always, just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin.

braddick

@wondercoin "Then, about 16 or 17 years later, I ran into the buyer of the Teletrade dimes who explained exactly how it happened that he won the coins that night and I immediately called Onlyroosies to tell him the mystery of these 5 or 6 clad dimes was finally solved!"

Don't leave us hanging like this.
What was the mystery?

ProofCollection

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Proof that there is no accurate price guide and each individual coin stands on its own merit. So what is it worth ?

The market determines the value and price guides must be updated and maintained if they want validity. Adding the juice is another odd factor in pricing or publishing. You get to the five figure coins and guides go out the window.

The reason why the coins are 5 figures is because there's only a handful of them and as a result only hit the market once every 5-10 years if that. There is no way to predict or project pricing on coins like that because it is a function of who shows up to auction. The auction buyers know if they don't win they won't be able to get one for another 5-10 years or more so of course they could care less what some guide says.

19Lyds

@Maywood said:
Two questions for @wondercoin: Were the five coins all PCGS examples - and - Can it be verified that the coins actually sold or were they buy backs by the consignor(s)??

A better question would be "Is Wondercoin in the market for a "976-S 40% Silver Half (Coin # 6728, Pop 5) in PCGS-MS69" and he's not willing to pay what a seller is asking?

Maybe Wondercoin would put his $850,000 1976 No S IKE up for sale and see if it actually brings $850,000 since none have ever sold at public auction?

jmlanzaf

@Project Numismatics said:

@jmlanzaf said:

I think eBay could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

Fixed that for ya.

Doesn't work. I'm the only "people" that defends them.

wondercoin

Pat. Enjoyed the hour long discussion on the Roosies!

Wondercoin

bestmr

I’ve often wondered where PCGS get their prices. I was also watching this Kennedy auction and while I knew it wouldn’t hit $20k, I was curious to where it would end up at.

wondercoin

‘’Maybe Wondercoin would put his $850,000 1976 No S IKE up for sale and see if it actually brings $850,000 since none have ever sold at public auction?’’

Lee. I think you are mistaken. I actually won the coin at public auction. And speaking of public auction, I was the direct underbidder on your cool Ike that would have sold for Way less had I not been bidding for it. I didn’t bid at all on the second Ike which I believes helps explain to some extent the difference in auction pricing between the 2 coins.

Wondercoin.

logger7

@Project Numismatics said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Project Numismatics said:

@logger7 said:
Coin Facts includes Stacks Bowers, ebay, HA, and other auction companies. I'd like to hear why they all permitted access to the collecting public and dealers. I can only think of narrow minded legalistic and ultimately selfish reasons why other competing auction companies will not permit their data to be permitted to be added.

Why should businesses give away data for free? “Selfish” doesn’t play into it - businesses exist to make money and each auction company has their own business model.

Er... isn't that "selfish" even if it's a reasonable business decision?

Do you give your inventory away for free to customers? No? I guess you are pretty selfish then!

Labelling GC as “selfish” implies a component of morality that is not appropriate within the context of operating a business. There’s no ethical or moral requirement to give away proprietary data for free.

Then why does Heritage Auctions share their data? You can go back for over 25 years and get lots of other information for free as part of being a thoroughly educated consumer. Maybe "egalitarian" is a better description.

lilolme

@bestmr said:
I’ve often wondered where PCGS get their prices. I was also watching this Kennedy auction and while I knew it wouldn’t hit $20k, I was curious to where it would end up at.

The pcgs webpage states some of the things they look at to determine price guide number(s). For any single coin only they might know what was done. I recall semi-recently in the pcgs market report they stated they were using auction results most. Below is a screenshot of their statement and link to it.

https://www.pcgs.com/prices

Looking at the OP coin only briefly this is some information I found on it just at coinfacts. The coinfacts page does have a Heritage sale of an NGC coin for $9600. in Aug. 2022. The coinfacts page does show Harbor coin (a pcgs authorized dealer) with one for sale asking $10,750. (It is on collectors corner but no clue here for how long). Based just on these two items I don't think I would not be paying price guide for one.

NGC coin at Heritage.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/kennedy-half-dollars/half-dollars/1976-s-50c-silver-ms69-ngc-pcgs-6728-/a/1348-4605.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

PCGS coin on collectors corner.
https://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=64527011

Screen shot of applicable coinfacts page.

.
.
PCGS has made some price adjustment as shown by the price history page. From $7500 in Sept 2022 to $25,000. Then down to the current $20,000 around Nov. 2023. No clue here how they arrived at these changes (I would think the one Harbor has for sale would indicate a need for a reduction based on pcgs description of what they use to determine pricing) but it has been active.

https://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=6728-69

Slade01

@Relaxn said:
Why buy GC prices? Just scrape the data using python... those prices are public and IMHO non proprietary

Just curious if your humble opinion is based on 30 years as an intellectual property attorney licensed to practice before the USPTO?

I disagree, particularly under the California implementation of the Uniform Trade Secret Act, which is much more generous in its protections for most databases if reasonably protected, which GC seems to be doing. Moreover, California juries are very good for California plaintiffs in such actions, meaning very large $$$$$.

jmlanzaf

@Project Numismatics said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Project Numismatics said:

@logger7 said:
Coin Facts includes Stacks Bowers, ebay, HA, and other auction companies. I'd like to hear why they all permitted access to the collecting public and dealers. I can only think of narrow minded legalistic and ultimately selfish reasons why other competing auction companies will not permit their data to be permitted to be added.

Why should businesses give away data for free? “Selfish” doesn’t play into it - businesses exist to make money and each auction company has their own business model.

Er... isn't that "selfish" even if it's a reasonable business decision?

Do you give your inventory away for free to customers? No? I guess you are pretty selfish then!

Labelling GC as “selfish” implies a component of morality that is not appropriate within the context of operating a business. There’s no ethical or moral requirement to give away proprietary data for free.

"Selfish" isn't necessarily moral or ethical.

Yes, I selfishly insist on making a profit on my inventory. GC selfishly keeps its data to itself.

jmlanzaf

@Slade01 said:

@Relaxn said:
Why buy GC prices? Just scrape the data using python... those prices are public and IMHO non proprietary

Just curious if your humble opinion is based on 30 years as an intellectual property attorney licensed to practice before the USPTO?

I disagree, particularly under the California implementation of the Uniform Trade Secret Act, which is much more generous in its protections for most databases if reasonably protected, which GC seems to be doing. Moreover, California juries are very good for California plaintiffs in such actions, meaning very large $$$$$.

Is requiring a free log in considered "reasonably protected "?

Is PCGS's use noncommercial since it is a free price guide?

Does it not matter that the auctions are public?

I'm not sure it's so clear until it gets in front of a jury.

But I don't really care. I simply ignore GC auction results when determining pricing. I'm not sure that auction results are transferable anyway, especially for anything other than widgets. And for widgets I have numerous other comps.

jmlanzaf

@DeplorableDan said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
if HRH were there, he would use all available data to keep us updated. i just know this.

But, again, GC data is NOT available. They have chosen to not make it available.

This is on GC not PCGS. There is zero evidence that GC even offered to sell it.

I think GC could stage a bloody coup and people would just smile and thank them for their weekly auctions.

How are we defining the word "coup"?

JK, don't answer that 😈

It doesn't matter. They have really nice weekly auctions.